Re: The Big Plan (question)

[Guest guest]

Hi Eddie --

Well, that's where Trimpey has a shortcoming, you see. If AVRT alone is

sufficient for a person to quit using drugs and/or alcohol, that's great, and

Trimpey claims it as proof that AVRT is all you need. But if someone doesn't

stick to their Big Plan (i.e. AVRT is not working for them, or

counseling/therapy might help for it to work better) Trimpey will hedge and say

well they didn't REALLY make a Big Plan, or they had a " reversal of intent " ,

etc.

This is eerily similar to steppers saying " the Program didn't fail him, he

failed the Program " , he " wasn't REALLY working the Steps to the best of his

ability " , etc.

This isn't an RR list, it's a list devoted to critical thinking, which

includes debunking ALL dogmatic ideologies, including RR's. There are no sacred

cows here!

Welcome, and feel free to question and comment on everything under the sun!

~Rita

> I'm a little confused on something about the Big Plan. I know that in

> Jack's book RR-The New Cure it says that a Big Plan can only be made once.

> What happens if you do go out and drink again, how can you use the same big

> plan since it didn't work the first time. Wouldn't you have to make another

> one? I am practiced enough in AVRT to recognize where this question is

> probably coming from, but I'd like to shut the bastard up on this one. I'm

> really curious about this and am sincere in asking this question since I

> really don't understand. I'd like to hear from some people who might help

> me out on this one. Thanks Eddie a/k/a The Southerngent

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Eddie,

If you were a Scientologist you'd also be convinced that your question

was caused by an Engram or something. Your question is a perfectly

sensible one coming from an intelligent, enquring mind.

Trimpey's Absolutism about his " Big Plan " mirrors exactly the stepper

" leting go absolutely " and surrendering to God's plan. Whenever you

see Absolutism you are likely to be looking at Authoritarianism.

Accepting the possibility of relapses and planning to pick

oneself back up agan after them is actually a useful weapon (Peele

writes about this). While trying to avoid absolutism myself:

1) Mature, determined decision never to use/drink again : Possibly

very good idea.

2) Absolutism about it: Bad one.

P.

> I'm a little confused on something about the Big Plan. I know that

in

> Jack's book RR-The New Cure it says that a Big Plan can only be made

once.

> What happens if you do go out and drink again, how can you use the

same big

> plan since it didn't work the first time. Wouldn't you have to make

another

> one? I am practiced enough in AVRT to recognize where this question

is

> probably coming from, but I'd like to shut the bastard up on this

one.

[Guest guest]

--- rita66@... wrote:

>

> This is eerily similar to steppers saying " the

> Program didn't fail him, he failed the Program " , he

> " wasn't REALLY working the Steps to the best of his

> ability " , etc.

Rita:

That is interesting. Jack also writes about the limits

to rationality in AVRT. If I understand correctly, it

is pointless in AVRT to pick apart logical

inconsistencies in RR thinking because ultimately,

such an endeavor plays into the hands of the

" Addictive Voice " of the beast. In other words, don't

analyze it, just go with it. While I find AVRT to be a

very useful gimmick for me, this does resemble a call

to intellectual restraint that I find in AA practices.

Ron

>

> This isn't an RR list, it's a list devoted to

> critical thinking, which includes debunking ALL

> dogmatic ideologies, including RR's. There are no

> sacred cows here!

>

> Welcome, and feel free to question and comment

> on everything under the sun!

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

>

> > I'm a little confused on something about the Big

> Plan. I know that in

> > Jack's book RR-The New Cure it says that a Big

> Plan can only be made once.

> > What happens if you do go out and drink again, how

> can you use the same big

> > plan since it didn't work the first time.

> Wouldn't you have to make another

> > one? I am practiced enough in AVRT to recognize

> where this question is

> > probably coming from, but I'd like to shut the

> bastard up on this one. I'm

> > really curious about this and am sincere in asking

> this question since I

> > really don't understand. I'd like to hear from

> some people who might help

> > me out on this one. Thanks Eddie a/k/a The

> Southerngent

> >

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

The Big Plan (question)

I'm a little confused on something about the Big Plan. I know that in Jack's book RR-The New Cure it says that a Big Plan can only be made once. What happens if you do go out and drink again, how can you use the same big plan since it didn't work the first time.

[ Eddie,

I don't know what sort of plan you made, but it wasn't The Big Plan. You probably can do that sort of plan any number of times. RR doesn't suggest that is wrong for you. In fact many people including professionals would say some plans of that sort may be reasonable and responsible.

People with Addiction Treatment and Recovery Group Disorders can get stuck on the "1) know it" use of The Big Plan. So many treatment centers list the Big Plan right near the top of their "warning signs of relapse". They claim addicts are not capable of such a plan and will predict great misery for those who imagine they can go it alone.

To "know it" (TBP) simply means you have deprogrammed yourself from that particular harmful indoctrination. "Knowing it" means you believe you are capable of such a commitment. After a little deprogramming, I have never heard anyone say they believed they were incapable of such a commitment.

Now, "2) try it" means say TBP and listen for the "echo effect". It puts a spotlight on your Beast and forces it to speak, feel, or shoot pictures into your consciousness. With this REcognition you can choose to dissociate IT from the YOU unique human who may know you'd be better off if you quit for good.

For feedback from a discussion group specifically structured to answer your questions I encourage you to check out http://rational.org//Forum.intro.html ]

Wouldn't you have to make another one? I am practiced enough in AVRT to recognize where this question is probably coming from, but I'd like to shut the bastard up on this one.

[ It's not only the question that is from your addictive voice, it's the set-up for the question. Your "little confused on something" is also Beast Activity. It knows that if you truly decided The arbitrarily irrevokable Big Plan, it's dead, and it convinced you not to be arbitrarily absolute. If you had been you'd not have followed through when the desire came that led you to decide to drink again.]

Dave Trippel

I'm really curious about this and am sincere in asking this question since I really don't understand. I'd like to hear from some people who might help me out on this one. Thanks Eddie a/k/a The Southerngent_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Re: The Big Plan (question)

Hi Eddie,If you were a Scientologist you'd also be convinced that your question was caused by an Engram or something. Your question is a perfectly sensible one coming from an intelligent, enquring mind.Trimpey's Absolutism about his "Big Plan" mirrors exactly the stepper "leting go absolutely" and surrendering to God's plan. Whenever you see Absolutism you are likely to be looking at Authoritarianism. Accepting the possibility of relapses and planning to pick oneself back up agan after them is actually a useful weapon (Peele writes about this). While trying to avoid absolutism myself:1) Mature, determined decision never to use/drink again : Possibly very good idea.2) Absolutism about it: Bad one. P.

Pete,

You're saying "mature, determined decision" means "don't be absolute about it". Are you also saying people who have made such an absolute decision have done something Bad in your book? Maybe you could bring this topic up at your OA meeting this week.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

>

> You're saying " mature, determined decision " means " don't be absolute

>about it " . Are you also saying people who have made such an absolute

>decision have done something Bad in your book? Maybe you could bring

>this topic up at your OA meeting this week.

Just had to get that in, didnt you, despite the fact that I attacked

Trimpey by comparing his thinking to XA. Well Dave, I dont " have an

OA meeting " and havent been to one for several weeks - thankyou for

checking with me first before making that comment.

I'm saying Dave what I'm saying, not what you say I'm saying. If you

arent clear about it, ask me and I'll clarify.

I do acknowledge that what I wrote wasnt particularly clear. Making a

decision to stop drinking/using for good I would not say is not

particularly Absolutist in itself. However, saying things like " I

have a Big Plan which I can only do once " is. I doubt that everyone

who uses RR techniques always succeeds unless one invopkes AA's " well

thety didnt do it properly " get out. Unless there is some provision

for dealing with a setback when they happen a person is left high and

dry (or wet).

P.

[Guest guest]

Hi Eddie & all,

You said: " What happens if you do go out and drink again, how can you

use the same big plan since it didn't work the first time. "

I'm no expert, but I think the rationale is something like this: You

use the same Big Plan. You acknowledge that you chose to drink; you

did what the Big Plan said not to do. You examine the

thoughts/feelings that went on before you drank, and try to see where

you didn't catch the beast becoming that decision. You now pin your

findings on the beast, adding this to *your* true voice's arsenal so

that in future you have earlier detection of trouble, and hopefully

the ability to make *your* true decision.

I'm sure no one technique is going to work for everyone. I guess you

liked the idea of AVRT enough to adopt it once. If you still think

you can commit to the Big Plan, I'd say try it again. If not, maybe

look elsewhere. And if you want to drink moderately, AVRT certainly

doesn't seem to accommodate that.

Just my $0.02,

Plus some good wishes and encouragement!,

[Guest guest]

, thanks for the response. I think that I was hung up on the " know it "

part. Definitely part of the RGD for me. Thanks, Eddie

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: The Big Plan (question)

>Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:53:51 -0500

>

>

> The Big Plan (question)

>

>

> I'm a little confused on something about the Big Plan. I know that in

> Jack's book RR-The New Cure it says that a Big Plan can only be made

>once.

> What happens if you do go out and drink again, how can you use the same

>big

> plan since it didn't work the first time.

>

> [ Eddie,

>

> I don't know what sort of plan you made, but it wasn't The Big Plan. You

>probably can do that sort of plan any number of times. RR doesn't suggest

>that is wrong for you. In fact many people including professionals would

>say some plans of that sort may be reasonable and responsible.

>

> People with Addiction Treatment and Recovery Group Disorders can get

>stuck on the " 1) know it " use of The Big Plan. So many treatment centers

>list the Big Plan right near the top of their " warning signs of relapse " .

>They claim addicts are not capable of such a plan and will predict great

>misery for those who imagine they can go it alone.

>

> To " know it " (TBP) simply means you have deprogrammed yourself from that

>particular harmful indoctrination. " Knowing it " means you believe you are

>capable of such a commitment. After a little deprogramming, I have never

>heard anyone say they believed they were incapable of such a commitment.

>

> Now, " 2) try it " means say TBP and listen for the " echo effect " . It

>puts a spotlight on your Beast and forces it to speak, feel, or shoot

>pictures into your consciousness. With this REcognition you can choose to

>dissociate IT from the YOU unique human who may know you'd be better off if

>you quit for good.

>

> For feedback from a discussion group specifically structured to answer

>your questions I encourage you to check out

>http://rational.org//Forum.intro.html ]

>

> Wouldn't you have to make another

> one? I am practiced enough in AVRT to recognize where this question is

> probably coming from, but I'd like to shut the bastard up on this one.

>

> [ It's not only the question that is from your addictive voice, it's the

>set-up for the question. Your " little confused on something " is also Beast

>Activity. It knows that if you truly decided The arbitrarily irrevokable

>Big Plan, it's dead, and it convinced you not to be arbitrarily absolute.

>If you had been you'd not have followed through when the desire came that

>led you to decide to drink again.]

>

> Dave Trippel

>

> I'm

> really curious about this and am sincere in asking this question since I

> really don't understand. I'd like to hear from some people who might

>help

> me out on this one. Thanks Eddie a/k/a The Southerngent

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

>