Re: kayleigh/zimbardo, etc.

[Guest guest]

He hid the fact that he slaughtered innocent women and children until these

media reports put his back against the wall. He says it was an accident, but

his past failure to reveal the truth casts serious doubt upon his current

veracity. He is probably a war criminal who should face an international

court.

Re: kayleigh/zimbardo, etc.

> You don't know Kerrey to be a murderer. How would you like to be called a

> murderer based on media reports?

[Guest guest]

BTW, until these reports surfaced I was a fan of Kerrey.

Re: kayleigh/zimbardo, etc.

>

>

> > You don't know Kerrey to be a murderer. How would you like to be called

a

> > murderer based on media reports?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He says it was an accident, but

his past failure to reveal the truth casts serious doubt upon his current

veracity

I really would be careful about concluding that. I'm no fan of Kerrey's, and when I vote it is usually for a libertarian-inclined GOP candidate, but I would hate to see anyone flogged with an issue like this.

War is hell, and Viet Nam was particularly so. Most vets are reluctant to talk about being "in country." Just because Kerrey was not all excited about sharing every detail about what has to be one of the most traumatic experiences a human being can be placed in, does not make him a liar or a war criminal.

I'd want to know a lot more before I would be willing to brand him thus.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

You don't know Kerrey to be a murderer. How would you like to be called a

murderer based on media reports?

Re: Zimbardo Study

>

>

> > I'm going to give you two responses to this message. The first is

> > going to be an autobiographical response, by which I hope to lay to

> > rest the stereotypical ideas that you have about me.

> >

> > My mother was the daughter of a Connecticut pharmacist and a milliner.

> > They were quite poor. Her mother died when her youngest sister, ten

> > years younger, was five and her father died about the time she

> > graduated from high school. The town took up a collection to send her

> > to college, and she went to in Boston. Thereafter she got a

> > job as a secretary at the Psychology Department at Brown and sent her

> > youngest sister through Pembroke. The next oldest sister postponed

> > college and sent their brother through Brown, and when she was 28

> > years old, she won a scholarship to Mt. Holyoke. She became a

> > librarian. My uncle, after serving in WWII, became the editor of the

> > Minneapolis Star-Tribune before he retired.

> >

> > My father got a Ph.D. in psychology at Brown, where he met my mother.

> > His father was a Texas millionaire who spent all his money before he

> > died (as was his right). My father graduated from SMU and went to

> > for graduate work (where he met Milton kson, a fascinating

> > person), and when his advisor left for Brown, my father followed him

> > there. Subsequently he taught at Harvard, Brown, UConn and the

> > University of Wisconsin. I grew up in Madison, Wisconsin.

> >

> > My father went to Madison in 1945, and taught there during the

> > McCarthy era and the loyalty oath scandal. He would never have worked

> > any place that required a loyalty oath. He once turned down a job

> > with the VA because he would have had to sign a loyalty oath. He

> > would never have worked in the south. He despised the south because

> > of what he perceived as the continued slavery of blacks who continued

> > to get jobs no better than house servants.

> >

> > I graduated from College. Yes, I am middle class and see no

> > reason to apologize for it. I imagine you are too. I spent my junior

> > year in Hamburg, subsequently went to OSU to get my master's, where I

> > participated in some fairly well publicized movements to promote

> > freedom of speech, and spent the academic year 1966-67 in Berlin,

> > where I lived in the same apartment as Rudi Dutschke. I expect you've

> > heard of him. I had numerous leftist contacts in Berlin, obviously,

> > or I would not have ended up in that apartment.

> >

> > I came back to the states, married, had a child, divorced, worked my

> > way through the University of Wisconsin law school and practiced

> > privately for five years. Then I worked for the state, for the

> > Medicaid program and for residential customers of public utilities.

> > At one time, for six months, I worked for a very prestigious and

> > high-priced law firm here, and I can remember what my mother said when

> > I took her there to see what it was like. The moment she stepped foot

> > in the lobby, she said, " Oh, quit! "

> >

> > I hope you're beginning to see that I am not a rich Republican

> > conservative who wears twin sets and pearls. I had a fairly radical

> > upbringing and am so far to the left of most of the people I know now

> > that they're kind of suspicious of me. I have never lived in the

> > suburbs in my life.

> >

> > It isn't easy for a mother with a school age child to work her way

> > through law school. It isn't easy to make a living in private

> > practice when most of what you do is domestic law, emphasizing

> > unmarried couples' relationships and in particular, specializing in

> > gays and lesbians. So I copped out and started working for the state.

> > But never, I think, in a capacity that put the rights of the underdog

> > after everyone else's.

> >

> > I was brought up with a kind of Depression mentality -- you wind the

> > thread back on the spool, you don't eat anything that was scheduled to

> > be on the menu the next day, you make all your own clothes. I still

> > do that to this day. In particular I've found that the kind of sewing

> > my mother taught me is what Vogue would call " the secrets of the

> > couturiers, " and it's pretty much a lot art amongst American women

> > nowadays.

> >

> > You are very keen on citing facts, why don't you cite some facts that

> > support your assumptions about me?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > > > I clicked on this link, read the information, then did what I

> > ought

> > > > to have

> > > > > done right away instead of asking if anyone had a link - I

> > checked

> > > > out

> > > > > Google and found a lot of stuff there.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is yet another confirmation of my theory that Human

> > Behavior Is

> > > > A

> > > > > Social Event. I believe that what is going on around us affects

> > our

> > > > > behavior more than we'd like to think.

> > > > >

> > > > > I want to go back to Google and look around some more. I'd like

> > to

> > > > know if

> > > > > they checked out the " guards " afterward and tried to figure out

> > why

> > > > some

> > > > > simply did their job efficiently, some did little favors for the

> > > > > " prisoners " , and some turned savage and vicious. I noted that

> > it

> > > > was one of

> > > > > the nicest guys who became the " Wayne " figure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd love to think that if I were in an experiment of this sort,

> > or

> > > > of the

> > > > > Milgram variety, that of course I wouldn't shock the victim, or

> > > > abuse the

> > > > > prisoner. Me? Oh, no, I'm not that kind of person.... But I

> > don't

> > > > know

> > > > > that I can promise any such thing. I really don't know. I have

> > no

> > > > idea

> > > > > what kind of person I might become.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm thinking about this in the context of AA. Many of us here,

> > and

> > > > maybe

> > > > > most of us here, and maybe all but me (depending on what we

> > mean)

> > > > reject the

> > > > > concept of powerlessness. We strongly deny that we are

> > powerless

> > > > over

> > > > > alcohol, or that we are powerless in general. We assert,

> > intead,

> > > > that we

> > > > > have a choice, and we choose what we do.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm fishing for words to say what I mean. I'm seeing something

> > far,

> > > > far

> > > > > more complex in which both of the words " powerless " and " choice "

> > are

> > > > pretty

> > > > > much meaningless.

> > > > >

> > > > > Under certain circumstances we were unable to control our

> > drinking.

> > > > This

> > > > > is, after all, the 12-step-free list, and at some point or other

> > we

> > > > were

> > > > > having enough trouble such that we either got in some sort of

> > bad

> > > > situation

> > > > > and sooner or later got coerced into AA for one reason or

> > another,

> > > > or we

> > > > > walked in on our own two feet. Some of us here are able now to

> > > > drink in

> > > > > moderation, while others are completely abstinent. I wonder

> > what

> > > > would

> > > > > happen, though, if the abstinent people were to start drinking

> > > > again. Would

> > > > > they be able to moderate? And if not, why not?

> > > > >

> > > > > If we are choosing not to drink, where in our psyche does the

> > choice

> > > > come

> > > > > from? If we are choosing to moderate, what is happening? We go

> > > > into a

> > > > > group of people and drink coffee, and somehow some of us find

> > that

> > > > our

> > > > > behavior changes. What is happening, and how does relating to

> > > > others

> > > > >

> > > > > You see I have lots of questions. I don't have really good

> > answers

> > > > yet.

> > > > > But I do see that in both the Milgrim experiment and the

> > Zimbardo

> > > > study,

> > > > > people's behavior was powerfully influenced, to one extent or

> > > > another. Some

> > > > > in the Milgrim study were able to resist early on, while others

> > > > stopped part

> > > > > way through, while still others went on to the very end. And

> > the

> > > > Zimbardo

> > > > > study, so it appears from my just beginning to read about it,

> > was

> > > > shocking.

> > > > > These normal, nice college boys were hideously transformed by

> > the

> > > > context in

> > > > > which they were acting.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am trying to figure out how people open up heretofore hidden

> > parts

> > > > of

> > > > > themselves when they get into a particular kind of group or

> > > > situation. Nice

> > > > > college kids go nuts in a certain context. Kind people hurt a

> > > > stranger in a

> > > > > certain context. People who can't control their drinking and

> > are

> > > > making a

> > > > > mess of their lives make changes to one extent or another when

> > they

> > > > get into

> > > > > a particular context.

> > > > >

> > > > > It may be pointed out to me at this juncture that many, if not

> > most,

> > > > AA

> > > > > people fail, and have slips to one extent or another. It may be

> > > > pointed out

> > > > > to me that AA didn't really change anything for those people.

> > And

> > > > it may be

> > > > > that those who sat there in meetings and went on about their

> > > > sobriety were

> > > > > slipping regularly.

> > > > >

> > > > > But I really did get sober. I really did stay squeaky clean.

> > It

> > > > never

> > > > > occurred to me to think that the others around me were lying

> > about

> > > > their

> > > > > sobriety. And I know on the inside how it feels to go from

> > > > helplessly and

> > > > > miserably doing what I don't want to do to being able to stop -

> > just

> > > > like

> > > > > that. I know what it feels like to feel myself in the grip of a

> > > > compulsion.

> > > > > I know what it feels like to feel completely out of control. It

> > was

> > > > awful.

> > > > >

> > > > > The jury is still out. I don't have any answers. But I look

> > and I

> > > > think

> > > > > and I try to figure out what is going on. All I know at this

> > point

> > > > is that

> > > > > I am not satisfied with either " powerlessness " or " choice " .

> > Where

> > > > does the

> > > > > power come from? Where does the power reside? What do we do to

> > > > access this

> > > > > power? I see these things as being part of a " Social Event " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for the topic of the Zimbardo study. That grinding sound

> > you

> > > > hear

> > > > > coming from central Pennsylvania is me thinking and running my

> > > > brains and

> > > > > trying to figure things out.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cheers,

> > > > >

> > > > > nz

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I appreciate your apology. I can also note that you also are still making

assumptions. But what the hell. I can't argue with you forever. I don't think

you have a clue what my social values are. I was viciously teased in grade

school, for not going to church and for making friends with Japanese kids just

released from internment, among other things.

You're not the only one who thinks that what our government is doing in Colombia

is wrong, but I tell you truthfully, I wouldn't last a day in Colombia if I

decided to pick up arms and fight. I would just be a burden to the people who

had to evacuate me after I got injured (if they decided to be that kindly).

Dieter Cunz was the chairman of the German department at OSU, where I got my

master's degree. He was the life-long lover of Oskar Seidlin, w

> > > > > I clicked on this link, read the information, then did what I

> > ought

> > > > to have

> > > > > done right away instead of asking if anyone had a link - I

> > checked

> > > > out

> > > > > Google and found a lot of stuff there.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is yet another confirmation of my theory that Human

> > Behavior Is

> > > > A

> > > > > Social Event. I believe that what is going on around us affects

> > our

> > > > > behavior more than we'd like to think.

> > > > >

> > > > > I want to go back to Google and look around some more. I'd like

> > to

> > > > know if

> > > > > they checked out the " guards " afterward and tried to figure out

> > why

> > > > some

> > > > > simply did their job efficiently, some did little favors for the

> > > > > " prisoners " , and some turned savage and vicious. I noted that

> > it

> > > > was one of

> > > > > the nicest guys who became the " Wayne " figure.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd love to think that if I were in an experiment of this sort,

> > or

> > > > of the

> > > > > Milgram variety, that of course I wouldn't shock the victim, or

> > > > abuse the

> > > > > prisoner. Me? Oh, no, I'm not that kind of person.... But I

> > don't

> > > > know

> > > > > that I can promise any such thing. I really don't know. I have

> > no

> > > > idea

> > > > > what kind of person I might become.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm thinking about this in the context of AA. Many of us here,

> > and

> > > > maybe

> > > > > most of us here, and maybe all but me (depending on what we

> > mean)

> > > > reject the

> > > > > concept of powerlessness. We strongly deny that we are

> > powerless

> > > > over

> > > > > alcohol, or that we are powerless in general. We assert,

> > intead,

> > > > that we

> > > > > have a choice, and we choose what we do.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm fishing for words to say what I mean. I'm seeing something

> > far,

> > > > far

> > > > > more complex in which both of the words " powerless " and " choice "

> > are

> > > > pretty

> > > > > much meaningless.

> > > > >

> > > > > Under certain circumstances we were unable to control our

> > drinking.

> > > > This

> > > > > is, after all, the 12-step-free list, and at some point or other

> > we

> > > > were

> > > > > having enough trouble such that we either got in some sort of

> > bad

> > > > situation

> > > > > and sooner or later got coerced into AA for one reason or

> > another,

> > > > or we

> > > > > walked in on our own two feet. Some of us here are able now to

> > > > drink in

> > > > > moderation, while others are completely abstinent. I wonder

> > what

> > > > would

> > > > > happen, though, if the abstinent people were to start drinking

> > > > again. Would

> > > > > they be able to moderate? And if not, why not?

> > > > >

> > > > > If we are choosing not to drink, where in our psyche does the

> > choice

> > > > come

> > > > > from? If we are choosing to moderate, what is happening? We go

> > > > into a

> > > > > group of people and drink coffee, and somehow some of us find

> > that

> > > > our

> > > > > behavior changes. What is happening, and how does relating to

> > > > others

> > > > >

> > > > > You see I have lots of questions. I don't have really good

> > answers

> > > > yet.

> > > > > But I do see that in both the Milgrim experiment and the

> > Zimbardo

> > > > study,

> > > > > people's behavior was powerfully influenced, to one extent or

> > > > another. Some

> > > > > in the Milgrim study were able to resist early on, while others

> > > > stopped part

> > > > > way through, while still others went on to the very end. And

> > the

> > > > Zimbardo

> > > > > study, so it appears from my just beginning to read about it,

> > was

> > > > shocking.

> > > > > These normal, nice college boys were hideously transformed by

> > the

> > > > context in

> > > > > which they were acting.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am trying to figure out how people open up heretofore hidden

> > parts

> > > > of

> > > > > themselves when they get into a particular kind of group or

> > > > situation. Nice

> > > > > college kids go nuts in a certain context. Kind people hurt a

> > > > stranger in a

> > > > > certain context. People who can't control their drinking and

> > are

> > > > making a

> > > > > mess of their lives make changes to one extent or another when

> > they

> > > > get into

> > > > > a particular context.

> > > > >

> > > > > It may be pointed out to me at this juncture that many, if not

> > most,

> > > > AA

> > > > > people fail, and have slips to one extent or another. It may be

> > > > pointed out

> > > > > to me that AA didn't really change anything for those people.

> > And

> > > > it may be

> > > > > that those who sat there in meetings and went on about their

> > > > sobriety were

> > > > > slipping regularly.

> > > > >

> > > > > But I really did get sober. I really did stay squeaky clean.

> > It

> > > > never

> > > > > occurred to me to think that the others around me were lying

> > about

> > > > their

> > > > > sobriety. And I know on the inside how it feels to go from

> > > > helplessly and

> > > > > miserably doing what I don't want to do to being able to stop -

> > just

> > > > like

> > > > > that. I know what it feels like to feel myself in the grip of a

> > > > compulsion.

> > > > > I know what it feels like to feel completely out of control. It

> > was

> > > > awful.

> > > > >

> > > > > The jury is still out. I don't have any answers. But I look

> > and I

> > > > think

> > > > > and I try to figure out what is going on. All I know at this

> > point

> > > > is that

> > > > > I am not satisfied with either " powerlessness " or " choice " .

> > Where

> > > > does the

> > > > > power come from? Where does the power reside? What do we do to

> > > > access this

> > > > > power? I see these things as being part of a " Social Event " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for the topic of the Zimbardo study. That grinding sound

> > you

> > > > hear

> > > > > coming from central Pennsylvania is me thinking and running my

> > > > brains and

> > > > > trying to figure things out.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cheers,

> > > > >

> > > > > nz

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I am always suspicious of any politician. Mike.

Re: kayleigh/zimbardo, etc.

> >

> >

> > > You don't know Kerrey to be a murderer. How would you like to be

called

> a

> > > murderer based on media reports?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Kate -- I don't hear saying that all Germans knew about the " Final

Solution " but were too evil to disagree with it. But what you say below is not

logical. You seem to be suggesting that there were two types of German citizens

(that is, under the Nazi definition of " German citizen " -- obviously German Jews

were no longer considered citizens): the Righteous Goyim, who knew about the

camps and risked imprisonment and death to aid their fellow human beings; and

the rest of the populace, who must not have known anything about the camps. How

can this be? I think there may have been a few barely literate, simple peasants

who really knew little or nothing -- but it seems realistic to assume that mist

German citizens did indeed know of the camps, CERTAINLY knew that their Jewish

neighbors had been increasingly persecuted, not allowed to work, their children

not allowed to go to school -- they SAW Kristallnacht, and then the raids and

disappearances in the middle of the night -- do people not notice such things?

Jews eventually began knocking on their Aryan neighbors' doors, begging for help

-- the Righteous Goyim let them in, the rest didn't. There are many Holocaust

survivors' accounts that speak of several doors being slammed in their faces

before one was opened to them. Now, I'll grant that choosing not to actively

hide Jewish families in one's basement is not proof of either " evil " or

particularly of approval of the government (and I don't think makes such an

assumption either) -- many Aryans who didn't help this way were probably just

terrified for their own safety. But they certainly knew what was going on!

~Rita

>

> Kristallnacht was the name given to the first major attack on the

> Jewish population of Germany and Austria, on November 9-10, 1938.

> Both the SS and general population participated in burning hundreds

> of synagogues, shops, and houses. Thirty thousand Jews were arrested

> and deported. Strong protests from the West had no effect on Nazi

> policy.

> Source: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t042/t04201.html

>

> Kayleigh,

>

> I would like to tell you how much I enjoy reading your posts. It is

> clear that you speak with great conviction, based on information

> received through personal encounters. This is a great deal more

> knowledge than I possess. 's sweeping generalization in regard to

> the knowledge the German population possesed would have us believe

> that ALL German citizens knew what was going on in the camps. The

> citations that he has provided indicate to me that SOME German

> citizens could not help but know what was happening, indeed the

> recognition of 271 Germans who were honored by the Yad Vashem

> as " righteous among the nations " ( source:

> http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t042/t04201.html) makes it clear

> that some Germans were very aware of what was going on, and attempted

> to do what they could to aid the Jews. However, that does not mean

> that the common, everyday working person had knowledge of what was

> happening in the camps. My experience of living through the Watergate

> mess is that while there are people who pay attention and are willing

> to be aware of what is going on in their country, there is an even

> greater number of folks who refuse to believe anything negative about

> their country's government even when the evidence is right in front

> of their noses. And I don't believe they are evil people. A narrow

> point of view and blinders can make for a comfortable, non-

> questioning way of life. Awareness, and a questioning mind can make

> things very uncomfortable (and makes for a 12 step free existence).

>

> Kate

[Guest guest]

Rita,

In my effort to keep my post relatively short, I evidently did not

express my thoughts very clearly:

>

> Kate -- I don't hear saying that all Germans knew about

>the " Final Solution " but were too evil to disagree with it.

You are correct. did not say all--but he did say most. From his

May 28 post:

" The recent controversy over Goldhagen has led to much discussion of

what

Germans knew, and WANTED to know, in the Hitler era. (

Goldhagen,

1996, Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the

Holocaust).

Goldhagen makes 3 major points:

1) Most Germans knew plenty, and cooperated

2) The motive for collaborating with the Nazis was a virulent

form of

German anti-Semitism,

3) Germans were unique in their Jew-hate; other Europeans did not

have

this same hatred. "

I did not say they were evil.

> But what you say below is not logical. You seem to be suggesting

>that there were two types of German citizens (that is, under the

>Nazi

>definition of " German citizen " -- obviously German Jews were no

>longer considered citizens): the Righteous Goyim, who knew about the

>camps and risked imprisonment and death to aid their fellow human

>beings; and the rest of the populace, who must not have known

>anything about the camps. How can this be?

I think there are people who are willing to look truth in the face

and ackinowledge it, no matter how upsetting or unpalatable it may

be, and who are willing to take action. I think there are people who

do not want to face the truth, or do not want to acknowledge reality.

It can be pretty scary. If one pretends to oneself that something is

not happening, then one has no obligation to take action. I didn't

say they didn't know anything. I implied that they refused to

believe. Sorry to be unclear.

>I think there may have been a few barely literate, simple peasants

>who really knew little or nothing -- but it seems realistic to

>assume

>that mist German citizens did indeed know of the camps, CERTAINLY

>knew that their Jewish neighbors had been increasingly persecuted,

>not allowed to work, their children not allowed to go to school --

>they SAW Kristallnacht, and then the raids and disappearances in the

>middle of the night -- do people not notice such things? Jews

>eventually began knocking on their Aryan neighbors' doors, begging

>for help -- the Righteous Goyim let them in, the rest didn't. There

>are many Holocaust survivors' accounts that speak of several doors

>being slammed in their faces before one was opened to them. Now,

>I'll grant that choosing not to actively hide Jewish families in

>one's basement is not proof of either " evil " or particularly of

>approval of the government (and I don't think makes such an

>assumption either) -- many Aryans who didn't help this way were

>probably just terrified for their own safety. But they certainly

>knew what was going on!

>

> ~Rita

>

I wonder what the level of knowledge was in 1933? 1938 prior to

November 9? What about 1942? In other words, how much did folks know

and when did they know it? I wasn't there, so I don't know. And I

think the really important thing is to remember what happened when

people shut their eyes to what was going on. Truthfully the argument

about who know what when is not one I want to spend time on. I just

want to do anything I can to insure that I will keep my ears and eyes

open and be willing to step to the plate when it counts.

Kate

[Guest guest]

I too don't want to spend lots of time on the timing issue, but

indeed, it is probably crucial. In August or September of 1939 the

Nazis invaded Poland. So that by the time the Final Solution was

arrived at, Germany was at war. In 1933 things probably proceeded

fairly normally for everyone, and then for certain people, notably the

Jews, things got worse and worse.

's Mum Helga pretty much substantiates what I believe to be

true. pooh-poohs it, but she was there and he was not. So I

tend to give her description more credibility.

I hope I have not denied that people knew about the camps, they

certainly all did, much as the Americans knew that the Japanese were

interned. They simply did not know what went on inside them. I

believe only a few did. And the atmosphere of fear of officialdom

amongst the general populace (remember, by the time things got really

bad at the camps, there were only women, children and the disabled or

elderly) militated greatly against anyone discussing the true

conditions.

I have assumed all along that advocated some kind of organized

resistance movement. Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he meant the kind of

gestures that put people so greatly at risk, such as the action of the

family that hid the s in Holland. It is no small decision, when

you have a family of your own to whom you feel you owe the greatest

loyalty, to risk your death and your family's to take another family

in. Rita sees that.

ly, I don't know what would have had them do, because

despite the fact that I've asked, he's never said.

This all began, iirc, because sees a strong parallel between

conditions in Germany of the 1930's and conditions here in the US

today. I certainly agree in terms of the 12-step movement, and Bush's

alarming faith-based proposals. However, that movement, though

dismal, affects relatively few people in our population, whereas the

Nazi movement affected everyone in Germany, and finally, everyone in

occupied Europe. Also, in its most blatant form, it is only people

who undergo 12-step " treatment " who are affected. People who walk

into AA on their own feet are much more able to continue to think

independently, I believe. They are unlikely to read the first step in

such a sweeping way, for example. This is not only my own

observation, it is borne out by Chaz Bufe's conclusions in " AA - Cult

or Cure? "

The major point at which and I diverge is in interpreting the

results of the Zimbardo and Milgram experiments. He believes that it

exposed existing evil in certain people and I believe it simply means

that ordinary people can do bad things when perceived " authorities "

tell them to. Pete pointed out some changes that Milgram had run on

his settings and authorities, and I think the results bear out the

conclusion that the perceived level of authority and the opulence of

the setting changed the behavior of the subjects. Naturally, too,

people in situations like the " righteous Goyim " will need to perform

their own cost/benefit analysis. The stakes were very high for both

Jews and Germans in Germany at that time. The Germans would be taking

actions that not only endangered their families, but would be

perceived as antithetical to their " own " government. Naturally there

would be more resistance in the occupied countries, who would not

perceive (by a long shot) the Nazis as their own government.

And this all points to why alcoholism treatment centers can gain such

power over their clients. As pointed out earlier, no outside

contacts, proselytizing from sun-up to bedtime, etc., etc., etc. I

certainly felt quite guilty when I was told that I was " as sick as my

secrets, " yet knew I was withholding information that I believed was

simply none of their business. The treatment people can be terribly

powerful, especially when occupational licenses are at stake, and the

clients will go along with them. I once remember stating that I

thought a 7.5% error rate for urine testing was unacceptably high,

considering the possible consequences of a false positive. Almost no

one of my fellows agreed (even though most were trained scientists).

You hear certain things so often ( " disease of relapse " ) that you

simply stop thinking about what it says about the effectiveness of

treatment and you go along with it.

<big snip>

>

> I wonder what the level of knowledge was in 1933? 1938 prior to

> November 9? What about 1942? In other words, how much did folks know

> and when did they know it? I wasn't there, so I don't know. And I

> think the really important thing is to remember what happened when

> people shut their eyes to what was going on. Truthfully the argument

> about who know what when is not one I want to spend time on. I just

> want to do anything I can to insure that I will keep my ears and

eyes

> open and be willing to step to the plate when it counts.

>

> Kate

[Guest guest]

Hi,

> I have assumed all along that advocated some kind of organized

> resistance movement. Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he meant the kind

of

> gestures that put people so greatly at risk, such as the action of

the

> family that hid the s in Holland. It is no small decision,

when

> you have a family of your own to whom you feel you owe the greatest

> loyalty, to risk your death and your family's to take another family

> in. Rita sees that.

I think it may be difficult for someone without children to realize

just how much this changes the complexion of everything. The POWER of

these ties simply cannot be described logically.

> ly, I don't know what would have had them do, because

> despite the fact that I've asked, he's never said.

>

> This all began, iirc, because sees a strong parallel between

> conditions in Germany of the 1930's and conditions here in the US

> today. I certainly agree in terms of the 12-step movement, and

Bush's

> alarming faith-based proposals. However, that movement, though

> dismal, affects relatively few people in our population, whereas the

> Nazi movement affected everyone in Germany, and finally, everyone in

> occupied Europe. Also, in its most blatant form, it is only people

> who undergo 12-step " treatment " who are affected. People who walk

> into AA on their own feet are much more able to continue to think

> independently, I believe. They are unlikely to read the first step

in

> such a sweeping way, for example. This is not only my own

> observation, it is borne out by Chaz Bufe's conclusions in " AA -

Cult

> or Cure? "

I think 's idea is that it is bigger by far than the 12 step

movement. The " medicalizing " or " diseasing " of so many issues,

certainly plays into it as well. We are a society of sick puppies!

Therefore, because we are ill, some of our actions are beyond our

control. This is becoming ingrained into the public consciousness,

and does need to be brought to light.

Also, we have gotten so far into the Nazi comparisons that we haven't

discussed the economic erosion much. In a way I think is right,

that there is a downswing, but my perception of it is that it is still

much different from the worldwide depression of the 1930s. My gma on

my mother's side liked to put a sugarcube between her teeth and drink

her tea through it. She couldn't. They couldn't get sugar. It is

very hard for most Americans to imagine the widespread poverty in

terms of not being able to get the " basics " that the depression

entailed. (Although one day soon I think you'll be able to pick up a

SUV for a song).

I talked about this with my dad today a little bit. He was

remembering the whole class pitching in to buy two students *shoes*

that didn't have them. No one, even the very poor, think in terms of

not having shoes. Go to a thrift store, and see what the quality of

the items is. NONE of that would have been there during the

depression.

I also differ with about the experiments, and I feel that

behavior is greatly affected by the situation as well as the

individual power a person possesses. I find the most meaning in the

interplay of these two - the person *and* the situation - rather than

a total emphasis on either one.

[Guest guest]

I am not sure where is coming from when he talks about the

conditions in the US today. Certainly, medicalizing beliefs is

terrible, and makes us similar to the Soviets who put political

dissidents in hospitals that resembled prisons (just as do ETOH tx

centers). But 's main concern seems to be spirituality, and from

where I sit, there doesn't seem to be a huge resurgence of it, unless

we're talking about people who believe in crystals, etc. But are

those people liable to believe they're powerless when the government

acts? Doesn't seem likely, and yet that's the concern has

expressed about the 12 steps. Yet the atmosphere that Bush has

introduced troubles me. I don't think Ashcroft has any business

having Bible study meetings in the workplace, for example, even if

they are held before business hours start. Like Santa, he may have a

list and he's checking it twice so he can decide who's naughty and

nice.

Where the 12 steps are concerned it's a little difficult to talk about

the difference between medicalization and spirituality, since the

accepted " medical " treatment in the treatment community is

" spiritual. " People in the addiction treatment community who don't

think AA should be pushed in tx centers are often afraid to say so.

It tends to muddy the issues.

Plenty of people exist who believe that they've overcome disease (by

which I mean cancer, or something that may be equally

troublesome or life-threatening) through faith, but their faith has

never been defined in any particular way in the books I've read about

it, nor have their doctors tried to fuck with their beliefs or tried

to induce faith in anyone who disclaimed it.

And to me the real disgrace is that alcohol and drug counselors seem

to have no real knowledge of psychological techniques. They use

confrontational and shaming techniques with no knowledge of how to

resolve the ensuing problems the patient has in any useful or

therapeutic way, without, in fact, even knowing whether those

techniques are useful or harmful. The wife of a friend of mine is a

Ph.D. in psychology who undertook a clinical internship in an

alcoholism facility in her first year of study for her doctorate, and

she is very vocal about the abuses that licensed alcohol and drug

counselors practice.

>

> Hi,

>

> > I have assumed all along that advocated some kind of

organized

> > resistance movement. Perhaps he didn't. Perhaps he meant the

kind

> of

> > gestures that put people so greatly at risk, such as the action of

> the

> > family that hid the s in Holland. It is no small decision,

> when

> > you have a family of your own to whom you feel you owe the

greatest

> > loyalty, to risk your death and your family's to take another

family

> > in. Rita sees that.

>

> I think it may be difficult for someone without children to realize

> just how much this changes the complexion of everything. The POWER

of

> these ties simply cannot be described logically.

>

> > ly, I don't know what would have had them do, because

> > despite the fact that I've asked, he's never said.

> >

> > This all began, iirc, because sees a strong parallel between

> > conditions in Germany of the 1930's and conditions here in the US

> > today. I certainly agree in terms of the 12-step movement, and

> Bush's

> > alarming faith-based proposals. However, that movement, though

> > dismal, affects relatively few people in our population, whereas

the

> > Nazi movement affected everyone in Germany, and finally, everyone

in

> > occupied Europe. Also, in its most blatant form, it is only

people

> > who undergo 12-step " treatment " who are affected. People who walk

> > into AA on their own feet are much more able to continue to think

> > independently, I believe. They are unlikely to read the first

step

> in

> > such a sweeping way, for example. This is not only my own

> > observation, it is borne out by Chaz Bufe's conclusions in " AA -

> Cult

> > or Cure? "

>

> I think 's idea is that it is bigger by far than the 12 step

> movement. The " medicalizing " or " diseasing " of so many issues,

> certainly plays into it as well. We are a society of sick puppies!

> Therefore, because we are ill, some of our actions are beyond our

> control. This is becoming ingrained into the public consciousness,

> and does need to be brought to light.

>

> Also, we have gotten so far into the Nazi comparisons that we

haven't

> discussed the economic erosion much. In a way I think is

right,

> that there is a downswing, but my perception of it is that it is

still

> much different from the worldwide depression of the 1930s. My gma

on

> my mother's side liked to put a sugarcube between her teeth and

drink

> her tea through it. She couldn't. They couldn't get sugar. It is

> very hard for most Americans to imagine the widespread poverty in

> terms of not being able to get the " basics " that the depression

> entailed. (Although one day soon I think you'll be able to pick up

a

> SUV for a song).

>

> I talked about this with my dad today a little bit. He was

> remembering the whole class pitching in to buy two students *shoes*

> that didn't have them. No one, even the very poor, think in terms

of

> not having shoes. Go to a thrift store, and see what the quality of

> the items is. NONE of that would have been there during the

> depression.

>

> I also differ with about the experiments, and I feel that

> behavior is greatly affected by the situation as well as the

> individual power a person possesses. I find the most meaning in the

> interplay of these two - the person *and* the situation - rather

than

> a total emphasis on either one.

>

>