Re: ken re stuff

[Guest guest]

.. You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and West take a

different position. They say the decay and crisis in American society

results from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It is

an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice

. If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happily

accept the label.

This is a sheer crock of shit. I've been poor, very poor. Living in a predominantly minority neighborhood of Section 8 housing and welfare. The heinous abuse of children in that neighborhood had to do with the failure of personal responsibility, period. Not some corporate conspiracy. Nothing and no one told the welfare queen next door to us to have 6 children that she did not supervise, and for whom the various fathers were nowhere in sight.

She drank and did drugs as her children were constantly truant and terrorizing the rest of us. The highpoint was one evening when one of her "boyfriends" came pounding on my backdoor when I was home alone with my kids, and he demanded that I let him in. He started trying to break the door down, and I called the cops, who took his drunken ass to jail.

This woman borrowed $5 from me one day, telling me a sob story about her kids having nothing to eat. I was an impoverished student also trying to feed my own children. I never saw the money back, but she sure always had her malt liquor.

Go peddle it to someone who is willing to romanticize the poor and excuse irresponsibility with appeals to capitalist conspiracies. I'm not one of them, and it does not look like many others here are particularly receptive, either.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

If anyone other than an extreme right-wing bigot was visiting this site, they won't visit it after reading post like yours.

I'm not right-wing, you fool. What I am is a pragmatist and realist. When I live amidst human beings who behave in a grossly irresponsible manner, my senses collect that information, and my memory stores it. I further have the capacity to communicate what I have stored in my memory. That this information does not fit into your febrile notions of elitist and corporate plots is really just to freakin' bad.

The outrageous irresponsibility which I witnessed first hand, had nothing to do with corporate plots. Mothers do not sit in their home stinkin' drunk and on crack while their children run about the streets unkempt and uncontrolled, because of an evil cabal of capitalists. There are social pathologies at work, and they bear study and investigation, but they will not be remedied by turning irresponsible parents into "victims" of The System. YOU are a lunatic.

--Mona--

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Her response was idiotic. A classic case of the fundamental attribution

error.

No, I was not committing the attribution error. I was setting forth behavior that only a lunatic would attribute to a capitalist conspiracy. Child neglect is the fault of the neglectful caretaker, usually a parent. Period.

Full stop. Not the failure to listen to do Jesus' will, not the failure to have their engrams cleared, and not the failure of an oppressive system.

Although there are indeed social pathologies that should be addressed, in the final analysis the problem is a failure of personal responsibility. Telling neglectful parents there is a conspiracy they can blame is outrageous, and grossly unfair to the abused children.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

You could not do me a bigger favor.

If anyone other than an extreme right-wing bigot was visiting this site, they won't visit it after reading post like yours.

You help me prove my point. YOU are EXACTLY the kind of person to whom Ragge's crap appeals.

Re: ken re stuff

.. You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and West take a different position. They say the decay and crisis in American society results from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It is an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice . If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happily accept the label. This is a sheer crock of shit. I've been poor, very poor. Living in a predominantly minority neighborhood of Section 8 housing and welfare. The heinous abuse of children in that neighborhood had to do with the failure of personal responsibility, period. Not some corporate conspiracy. Nothing and no one told the welfare queen next door to us to have 6 children that she did not supervise, and for whom the various fathers were nowhere in sight. She drank and did drugs as her children were constantly truant and terrorizing the rest of us. The highpoint was one evening when one of her "boyfriends" came pounding on my backdoor when I was home alone with my kids, and he demanded that I let him in. He started trying to break the door down, and I called the cops, who took his drunken ass to jail. This woman borrowed $5 from me one day, telling me a sob story about her kids having nothing to eat. I was an impoverished student also trying to feed my own children. I never saw the money back, but she sure always had her malt liquor. Go peddle it to someone who is willing to romanticize the poor and excuse irresponsibility with appeals to capitalist conspiracies. I'm not one of them, and it does not look like many others here are particularly receptive, either. --Mona--

[Guest guest]

paul diener wrote:

> 1) I don't view your middle-class position, or your present lifestyle, as

> an " accident of birth. " You CHOSE to be a Silicon Valley Yuppie Wannabe,

> didn't you?

,

Do you know you are nuts? When I came to Silicon Valley, I didn't know it was

Silicon Valley. My only association was the 60s song, " Do You Know the Way to

San " ?

I will openly confess that I'd _much_ rather work in the computer industry than

do what I do now. It would be nice to have things like insurance.

<LOL> So, living in Silicon Valley, I " CHOSE " to take computer classes? Shame

on me. It only took me seven years to start classes. But " Yuppie " ? Want

insurance? Yes. Yuppie? You are out of your mind, just stabbing in the dark.

You are jealous of people with money (or that you think have money), aren't you?

>

>

> 2) I have, indeed, criticized your " apolitical " affectation. Like most

> middle-class narcissists, your concern seems limited to " working on your

> issues. "

Well, I do expend quite a bit of my time just surviving. Shame on me.

>

> You don't post on things like the erosion of workers's incomes,

But if workers start making more money, won't they then become the evil middle

class who doesn't care about the below?

> the

> explosion in homelessness, police repression against minorities, a major war

> in Colombia, etc.

> Yet these are things intimately related to the

> " addictions " problem, and to the War On Drugs. AA's main purpose is to keep

> people from understanding the larger context of their difficulties, via

> cultic propaganda. So what do YOU offer? You blabber ANOTHER version of

> cultic bullshit - the " adult child " version. (Instead of blaming everything

> on alcohol, you tell people to blame everything on their mothers and

> fathers!) And, like AA, you are also annoyed by " outside political issues. "

When have I expressed annoyance at " outside political issues " ? I get annoyed at

you, with your groundless, mean-spirited personal attacks on list members (and

now me too).

>

>

> 3) You label me an " ideologue. "

>

If the shoe fits . . .

>

> In a book that deals with REAL child abuse

and real, of course, is in total in agreement with your ideology, with your " One

and Only Truth. " Your an atheist, aren't you? If so, you weren't chosen by

God. Were you chosen by History?

> (and not your

> middle-class, whiner, fantasy version), Sylvia Hewlett and Cornel West point

> out the terrible conditions under which low-income parents are laboring (The

> War Against Parents, 1998, Houghton-Mifflin). They say, " over the past two

> and a half decades, America's business and political leaders, abandoning the

> social contract, have moved systematically against workers " (p. 61). Wage

> are falling, hours are increasing, benefits have been cut, schools are like

> prisons, police act in repressive ways in low-income areas, etc., etc.

> Perhaps most disturbing, low-income workers are routinely treated like

> garbage, on the job and off. This breaks hearts, it breaks spirits, and it

> breaks up families.

I'm sorry, but there is not just one cause for complex situations. In the last

year or so there was a study reported that showed that Latin Americans who move

to California, after only one generation, begin to approach the rest of the

American population in mental illness, alcoholism and drug addiction. For the

most part, as horrible as work conditions normally are for them here, they are,

as a rule, far better than back home.

>

>

> Who is to blame? Your idiotic, cultic " adult child " myth BLAMES THE

> VICTIMS. You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and West take a

> different position. They say the decay and crisis in American society

> results from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It is

> an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice

> . If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happily

> accept the label.

Like I said, if the shoe fits . . .

>

>

> 4) is a crack-pot Swiss psychiatrist, just as was Jung.

is not and never was a psychiatrist. She _was_ a psychoanalyst. Her

Ph.D. was in philosophy. She resigned from the psychoanalytical societies and

is a critic of psychoanalysis in general and Jung in particular.

> For

> the role of upper-class Swiss during the Nazi years, see, Coopting Nazi

> Germany, J. Petropoulos, 1997, Dimensions, Vol 11, No 1. He remarks, " The

> Swiss bolstered the Nazi regime in many ways. . . . Many Swiss envisioned a

> place for Switzerland in the New Order. " It is very much in Swiss interest

> to cover up their seedy past, and blame everything on " Hitler's Childhood. "

> (I wonder what our girl, Alice, and her family were doing during the war?).

> The literature on this topic is extensive. Obviously, since you seldom

> read, you won't have read it.

No, I haven't read it. Nice logical jump from Alice to " many Swiss. "

Would you care to report on what evil deeds ,Alice was doing as a child

during the War? Would you care to explain why, when she was the darling of

psychoanalysts everywhere, she insisted when speaking to the German

psychoanlytic society that it was important for them, since they were the last

generation alive during Hitler's, they had a great responsibility to study the

Nazi time? And quit when the only response she got was " What Nazi's " ? I'd like

to see your explanation.

Of course you can't. She simply must be tarred and feathered (for her

ethnicity, no less. Do you attack people for their race too?) because she holds

a different world view from you.

>

>

> For those who don't know , she is a cult guru, lionized by the

> 'adult child' crowd, right along with Bill and Bradshaw. I did

> a google search with keywords " Alice " and " 12-Steps " and got page

> after page of sites linking the two. Duplicate it, folks. Here is a quote

> from one of those sites, labeled Recovery Anonymous:

>

> " . . . most of us have been raised dysfunctionally. . . . we keep

> repeating the past. . . . This web site plans on breaking some of those

> dysfunctional rules by introducing new ideas and information; as they say in

> 12-Step meetings, 'take what you like and leave the rest'. . . . much of my

> background has been developed based upon the works of the true giants in

> this field: Bradshaw, Terry Kellogg, ALICE MILLER, Ernie Larsen, M.

> Peck, Pea Mellody, Lee, Bob and, last but not least,

> Firestone. "

Do you know why she wrote the forward and afterward to the 2nd edition of " More

Revealed " ? It was because she was terribly upset by the " adult child " people

and steppers using her name and selectively citing her as if she were a

supporter.

>

>

> There are MANY other sites of similar nature, linking sweet Alice and

> the 12-Steps. When in a bookstore, just glance at the 'adult child/12-Step'

> fantasy section. You will find Alice in the bibliographies. Or go

> on line to the 'recovery bookstore sites' (Hazelden, Health Communications,

> etc.) They all love Alice, too. You can take the Ragge out of AA, but you

> can't take the AA out of the Ragge. One thing Ken will like about those

> stores which feature Alice . They tend to not have books on those

> annoying 'political outside issues'.

You mean like & Noble and Borders?

I do know for a fact that the book(s) of hers that are in the " Recovery " section

are there because of the publisher(s) and is strictly an economic decision.

>

>

> 5) On the specific issue of Hitler's childhood, I don't think you know

> squat about it. I have read enough in the area to know what data is

> available, and what the current status of research is in this field. You

> have the arrogance to assert expertise based on ONLY 's piece of crap,

> a huckster work which refers only to a dozen or so secondary sources, and

> THESE she misuses.

>

> You call one of the " great therapists and philosophers of the

> century. " Cite ONE publication of hers in a philosophical journal, or even

> dealing with a topic in formal philosphy. The woman is an irrational ass,

> not a philosopher.

Coming from you, that has real meaning and impact. <LOL>

> As to 'great therapist,' do you have any outcome data -

> or ANY data - that shows she ever cured anybody of ANYTHING! What Alice

> is is exactly what Bradshaw is: a well-know and will-incomed

> (LOTS of royalty money, LOTS) guru to the 'adult child' recovery-cult crowd.

> Only she is even more stupid than Bradshaw. I read a couple of her books,

> and almost became physically ill. But, then, I HAVE had some formal

> philosophy.

Well, as you've noticed, I'm very impressed with you.

>

>

> 6) Your supporting citations on 'brainwashing' are hopelessly inadequate.

> You cite the same few, old sources, over and over. Don't you ever read a

> NEW book? Don't you keep up with the literature on topics where you pretend

> expertise. How about a recent review article dealing with this topic. You

> won't find one that supports your position.

So, again I ask you, do we vote on what truth is? Is that how we go about it?

We find out which direction the wind is blowing? You maybe, not me.

> My post is too long, and I will

> leave this question for later. Simply put, it is easier for you to spread

> crap based on your 'sacred science', than it is for me to clean up after

> you. I actually have to read the literature, something you cult-believers

> don't bother with.

Actually, I think your persuasive powers would improve if you'd take Lifton,

Schein and Hassan to heart. People who use their techniques manage to develop a

following. It seems that you are stuck at " cult of one " in your persuasion

efforts.

I like my independence and I like independent people.

Ken Ragge

>

>

> ---- Original Message -----

>

> To: <12-step-free >

> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 5:19 PM

> Subject: Re: terms, freedom

>

> >

> >

> > paul diener wrote:

> >

> > > No, the vernacular term I did not let you get away with was 'soul

> rape'.

> > > I think there is a difference in connotation between 'sadist' and 'soul

> > > rape' in vernacular usage. You may not agree.

> > >

> > > The dispute over 'brainwashing' was NOT about a vernacular term. Ken

> > > uses this term literally, as a technical concept.

> >

> > ,

> >

> > One of the disagreements I had with you on addict-l was your assumption

> that

> > _everyone_ who disagreed with your world view did so out of some basic

> > maliciousness, generally associated with an accident of birth (social

> class) and

> > protecting one's own position. You seemed totally unable to accept the

> > possibility that someone who disagrees with you (as arrogant as that would

> be

> > too) is simply wrong. Who could _only_ see in other people? Makes me

> think of

> > AA's " point a finger at someone else, you are pointing three at yourself. "

> >

> > That, combined with your knowingly inaccurate representation of Alice

> re

> > Hitler's childhood for the purpose of " getting " Duncan makes me see

> you as

> > a person who believes the ends justify the means.

> >

> > And here, your gross misrepresentation of my views and your failure to

> respond

> > to my challenge to your gross misrepresentation of the reviews of my book

> really

> > make me wonder.

> >

> > I also noticed your failure to respond to Kayleigh's calling you on

> > misrepresenting her views.

> >

> > It seems that many ideologues will do or say anything that suits their

> purpose.

> >

> > I don't see ideologues of the left or right as much different from

> " spiritual "

> > theologies.

> >

> > I used the term _directly_ referring to Lifton's concept of " thought

> reform " and

> > Schein's concept of " coercive persuasion " and have clarified that on

> several

> > occassions.

> >

> > > It was introduced as a

> > > technical concept at the end of the Cold War. It has since been

> thoroughly

> > > discredited, though - as both Mona and I have noted.

> >

> > I don't know about being a technical term, but the term " brainwashing " was

> > certainly used as a headline-grabber and the misinformation that it had to

> do

> > with torture certainly allayed peoples' fears over just what happened to

> some of

> > the Westerners caught in China after the revolution.

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Indeed, 'brainwashing' has been shown to be a DANGEROUS idea,

> >

> > <LOL> as anything that contradicts your ideology. Which brainwashing are

> you

> > referring to? Thought reform/coercive persuasion/re-education or the

> > make-believe torture to change opinion and world view?

> >

> > > most often

> > > associated with counter-cult and anti-cult extremists. If people are

> > > 'brainwashed,' then taking away their legal rights, kidnapping them,

> > > deprogramming them, etc., seems legitimate. Being 'brainwashed' is

> EXACTLY

> > > like being captive to a putative 'addiction' - and forced

> 'deprogramming' is

> > > equivalent to forced 'anti-addiction treatment.' In both cases, the

> person

> > > is said to have ALREADY lost his/her real freedom, so coercion is now a

> > > medical means to 'save' them. Ken is fighting 'cults' with 'cultic'

> ideas!

> >

> > Where have I _ever_ suggested such a thing? It is the ideologues and

> other

> > " spiritual " folks who are the danger to freedom. On the left, because

> people

> > are incompetent to decide for themselves so the government must step in

> and make

> > their decisions for them. On the right, because people are so incompetent

> they

> > don't deserve to have anything and, besides, it is doing them a favor to

> take as

> > much hope (and assets) from them as possible.

> >

> > >

> > > This is what makes Ken's position so ironic, and sad. He opposes AA

> > > ideology, but his OWN ideology is a mirror image of AA.

> >

> > Nonsense, but yours, if you'd be more open about it, I'm sure would be a

> direct

> > parallel.

> >

> > >

> > > " Addiction " = " brainwashed "

> >

> > Where did I ever say or suggest such a thing?

> >

> > >

> > > " Treatment " = " deprogramming " .

> >

> > And where did I ever say or suggest such a thing?

> >

> > >

> > > Either way, the person is " powerless, " and so he needs the 'higher

> > > powers' to intervene to save him/her.

> >

> > And where did I ever say anything remotely resembling that? Are you

> operating

> > under the premise that if you tell a lie often enough that it will become

> true,

> > or at least be believed?

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > A nice article on the topic, by the British sociologist of

> religion,

> > > Eileen Barker (she wrote The Making of a Moonie, 1984, New Religious

> > > Movement, 1989, and other stuff), is " The Freedom of the Cage, " in

> Society,

> > > 1996, v. 33, n. 3, pp 53-60. Barker points out how the 'brainwashing'

> myth

> > > has been used by reactionary law-and-order types to violate the legal

> rights

> > > of adults. They kidnap people, hold them against their will, abuse and

> > > isolate them, all in the name of 'freeing' them from the brainwashing of

> a

> > > 'cult'.

> >

> > Who is talking about " them " ? Where are these hordes? Or are you talking

> about

> > perhaps a few dozen people who over-responded in the 60s?

> >

> > >

> > > Barker also points out WHY some people find authoritarian New

> Religious

> > > Movements - like the Moonies, whom she studied extensively - attractive.

> > > When you are IN the cage, you are free from FREEDOM. You are free from

> > > demands, expectations, pressures. It IS a lot like alcohol. It makes

> you

> > > feel less hassled. Life becomes simpler. No choices to make, hence no

> > > fears of failure, etc. There is freedom in the cage. At least for

> some.

> > >

> >

> > And it puts _all_ the burden on the person who was mislead, and _none_ on

> the

> > people who mislead and lied to them. Sounds like " victimize the victim "

> to me.

> > The funniest thing about this is you attack anyone who doesn't take

> anything you

> > say at face value on the one hand, and attack people who trusted and

> believed on

> > the other for being so gullible.

> >

> > >

> > > A British woman was visiting Germany in the mid-1930s. She saw a

> > > bright-faced young Nazi in uniform, beaming at a Party outdoor ceremony.

> > >

> > > Why are you so happy, she asked. Not much has changed yet. It is

> > > still the depression..

> > >

> > > Ah, yes, he replied. But now we are FREE!

> > >

> > > Free? She asked, incredulous. Free from what?

> > >

> > > Free from FREEDOM! he declaimed, exultant.

> > >

> > > This anecdote appears in a biographical volume entitled The Later

> > > Cecils. I forget the woman who related it. If anyone needs the exact

> > > citation, I can search for it.

> >

> > So? And what would you argue in an automobile accident in which the

> following

> > were true:

> >

> > 1. driver drank one drink before driving

> > 2. brakes pulled strongly to one side

> > 3. tires were bald

> > 4. road was unfamiliar

> > 5. warning of sharp curve sign was hidden by overgrown shrubbery

> > 6. black ice on curve

> > 7. driver was sleepy, had been up past normal bedtime

> > 8. driver was talking on cell phone

> > 9. child in rear seat started crying " I have to peepee real bad. "

> > 10. radio traffic news reported the roads were in great shape

> >

> > Would you insist that _only one_ of the above was _totally_ responsible

> for the

> > accident? In a simple situation like the cause of an automobile accident,

> it is

> > difficult to pin down just one " cause " because usually it just doesn't

> exist.

> > How can you be so arrogant as assuming _one_ cause (it is the person who

> was

> > lied to's fault) in something so complex as human behavior and group

> > interaction? It wouldn't have ideological roots, would it?

> >

> > Ken Ragge

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hewlett and West take adifferent position. They say the decay and crisis in American societyresults from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It isan ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice. If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happilyaccept the label.

,

How would you compare Scandinavian socialism with Cuban/Chinese socialism?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

paul diener wrote:

> You could not do me a bigger favor. If anyone other than an extreme

> right-wing bigot was visiting this site, they won't visit it after

> reading post like yours. You help me prove my point. YOU are EXACTLY

> the kind of person to whom Ragge's crap appeals.

> ,

>

> Have you not noticed? Mona and I have been arguing back and forth on

> a number of things. Which I think is just fine . . .

>

> If you think Mona is a right-wing bigot ( and speaking of bigotry, who

> just finished accusing someone of being a rather foul person for

> _being Swiss_?) you should spend some time around religious-right

> Republicans or just Southern Republicans from before the days of the

> religious right.

>

> If I had the time and inclination, I would argue that the situation in

> the neighborhood where she grew up was in part due to the stupid

> arrogance of the left over several decades in uprooting people from

> their neighborhoods and having them live where they thought they

> should live, far removed from extended family, neighborhood and

> community support in, what for many, was Soviet-style housing blocks

> in stead of helping people out in their own neighborhoods.

>

> Ken Ragge

>

> Re: ken re stuff

> In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard

> Time,

> pauldiener@... writes:

>

>

>

> > . You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and

> > West take a

> > different position. They say the decay and crisis in

> > American society

> > results from the planned actions of corporate and

> > political elites. It is

> > an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have

> > cultic guru, Alice

> > . If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an

> > ideologue, I happily

> > accept the label.

>

> This is a sheer crock of shit. I've been poor, very poor.

> Living in a

> predominantly minority neighborhood of Section 8 housing and

> welfare. The

> heinous abuse of children in that neighborhood had to do

> with the failure of

> personal responsibility, period. Not some corporate

> conspiracy. Nothing and

> no one told the welfare queen next door to us to have 6

> children that she did

> not supervise, and for whom the various fathers were nowhere

> in sight.

>

> She drank and did drugs as her children were constantly

> truant and

> terrorizing the rest of us. The highpoint was one evening

> when one of her

> " boyfriends " came pounding on my backdoor when I was home

> alone with my kids,

> and he demanded that I let him in. He started trying to

> break the door down,

> and I called the cops, who took his drunken ass to jail.

>

> This woman borrowed $5 from me one day, telling me a sob

> story about her kids

> having nothing to eat. I was an impoverished student also

> trying to feed my

> own children. I never saw the money back, but she sure

> always had her malt

> liquor.

>

> Go peddle it to someone who is willing to romanticize the

> poor and excuse

> irresponsibility with appeals to capitalist conspiracies.

> I'm not one of

> them, and it does not look like many others here are

> particularly receptive,

> either.

>

> --Mona--

>

>

[Guest guest]

Her response was idiotic. A classic case of the fundamental attribution

error.

As for you, who would Ken Ragge be without AA and your little cultic online

following? There are commodities other than money. As with most

egomaniacs, you seem to have made attention and adoration your valued

currency.

Re: ken re stuff

MonaHolland@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> pauldiener@... writes:

>

>

> This is a sheer crock of shit.

Mona,

I _loved_ it. <VBG>

Regards,

Ken

[Guest guest]

,

You are one harsh SOB. I mean that as a compliment.

<snipping the personal insults to Ken>

AA's main purpose is

to keep

> people from understanding the larger context of their difficulties,

via

> cultic propaganda.

I am interested in this point, if you could expand on it.

> In a book that deals with REAL child abuse (and not your

> middle-class, whiner, fantasy version), Sylvia Hewlett and Cornel

West point

> out the terrible conditions under which low-income parents are

laboring (The

> War Against Parents, 1998, Houghton-Mifflin).

I have seen this up close. I KNOW that it contributes to child abuse.

I know that there are those cases, where the parent is just a sheer

malevolent entity, that are often sited and that horrify. However,

the true picture is much larger than this. Child abuse results from

*frustration*. Ongoing, unrelenting, unrelieved frustration. This is

a book I will indeed spend the time on.

> Who is to blame? Your idiotic, cultic " adult child " myth BLAMES

THE

> VICTIMS. You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and West

take a

> different position. They say the decay and crisis in American

society

> results from the planned actions of corporate and political elites.

It is

> an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic

guru, Alice

> . If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I

happily

> accept the label.

, where I am confused about your position is in the idea that

these " victims, " the parents, are different than the people who went

along with Milgrim and administered the shocks against their beliefs.

In both cases, the people are under intense strain from the outside

and do acts they feel are wrong. In what ways are the situations

different?

For a fictional account that contains a very great deal of truth, read

the short story " Because " by Joyce Carol Oates. There are some things

you do that you aren't the same person afterwards.

[Guest guest]

Jim Yelverton wrote:

> Her response was idiotic. A classic case of the fundamental attribution

> error.

> As for you, who would Ken Ragge be without AA and your little cultic online

> following? There are commodities other than money. As with most

> egomaniacs, you seem to have made attention and adoration your valued

> currency.

Jim,

Would you please elaborate? I don't know where you are coming from.

Ken

P.S. My post to Mona was supposed to be a private e-mail and was only posted

by accident.

>

>

> Re: ken re stuff

>

> MonaHolland@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > pauldiener@... writes:

> >

> >

> > This is a sheer crock of shit.

>

> Mona,

>

> I _loved_ it. <VBG>

>

> Regards,

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Hey Mona fancy meeting you here! My don't we get around. Seriously it just shows how much, us and others like us are willing to take responsibility for our own sobriety. Eddie

Yo! Hi Eddie. As you may have observed, I permit myself a more, shall we say, "strident tone" on this list than in the LSR venues. This isn't particularly a support list, so I feel free to flame away when some moron has demanded that response. . the "kinder, gentler Mona" has her Warrior Princess alter.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Hey Mona fancy meeting you here! My don't we get around. Seriously it just

shows how much, us and others like us are willing to take responsibility for

our own sobriety. Eddie- Southerngent2

>From: MonaHolland@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: ken re stuff

>Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:39:26 EDT

>

>In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

>pauldiener@... writes:

>

>

> > . You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and West take a

> > different position. They say the decay and crisis in American society

> > results from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It

>is

> > an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru,

>Alice

> > . If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I

>happily

> > accept the label.

> >

>

>This is a sheer crock of shit. I've been poor, very poor. Living in a

>predominantly minority neighborhood of Section 8 housing and welfare. The

>heinous abuse of children in that neighborhood had to do with the failure

>of

>personal responsibility, period. Not some corporate conspiracy. Nothing

>and

>no one told the welfare queen next door to us to have 6 children that she

>did

>not supervise, and for whom the various fathers were nowhere in sight.

>

>She drank and did drugs as her children were constantly truant and

>terrorizing the rest of us. The highpoint was one evening when one of her

> " boyfriends " came pounding on my backdoor when I was home alone with my

>kids,

>and he demanded that I let him in. He started trying to break the door

>down,

>and I called the cops, who took his drunken ass to jail.

>

>This woman borrowed $5 from me one day, telling me a sob story about her

>kids

>having nothing to eat. I was an impoverished student also trying to feed

>my

>own children. I never saw the money back, but she sure always had her malt

>liquor.

>

>Go peddle it to someone who is willing to romanticize the poor and excuse

>irresponsibility with appeals to capitalist conspiracies. I'm not one of

>them, and it does not look like many others here are particularly

>receptive,

>either.

>

>--Mona--

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hi, New to the group. Might as well jump right in. Does the phrase

personal responsibility have any meaning? Eddie

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: ken re stuff

>Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 23:21:27 -0500

>

>

>

>You could not do me a bigger favor.

>

>If anyone other than an extreme right-wing bigot was visiting this site,

>they won't visit it after reading post like yours.

>

>You help me prove my point. YOU are EXACTLY the kind of person to whom

>Ragge's crap appeals.

>

>

> Re: ken re stuff

>

>

> In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> pauldiener@... writes:

>

>

>

> . You blame the poor, struggling parents. Hewlett and West take a

> different position. They say the decay and crisis in American society

> results from the planned actions of corporate and political elites.

>It is

> an ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru,

>Alice

> . If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I

>happily

> accept the label.

>

>

>

> This is a sheer crock of shit. I've been poor, very poor. Living in a

> predominantly minority neighborhood of Section 8 housing and welfare.

>The

> heinous abuse of children in that neighborhood had to do with the

>failure of

> personal responsibility, period. Not some corporate conspiracy.

>Nothing and

> no one told the welfare queen next door to us to have 6 children that

>she did

> not supervise, and for whom the various fathers were nowhere in sight.

>

> She drank and did drugs as her children were constantly truant and

> terrorizing the rest of us. The highpoint was one evening when one of

>her

> " boyfriends " came pounding on my backdoor when I was home alone with my

>kids,

> and he demanded that I let him in. He started trying to break the door

>down,

> and I called the cops, who took his drunken ass to jail.

>

> This woman borrowed $5 from me one day, telling me a sob story about her

>kids

> having nothing to eat. I was an impoverished student also trying to

>feed my

> own children. I never saw the money back, but she sure always had her

>malt

> liquor.

>

> Go peddle it to someone who is willing to romanticize the poor and

>excuse

> irresponsibility with appeals to capitalist conspiracies. I'm not one

>of

> them, and it does not look like many others here are particularly

>receptive,

> either.

>

> --Mona--

>

[Guest guest]

'Do you know why [Alice ] wrote the forward and afterward to the

2nd edition of " More Revealed " ? It was because she was terribly upset

by the " adult child " people and steppers using her name and

selectively citing her as if she were a supporter.'

Can you say more about this Ken? How does what she say siffer from

the " Adult Child " folks and what are her views on steppism?

P.

[Guest guest]

watts_pete@... wrote:

>

>

> 'Do you know why [Alice ] wrote the forward and afterward to the

> 2nd edition of " More Revealed " ? It was because she was terribly upset

> by the " adult child " people and steppers using her name and

> selectively citing her as if she were a supporter.'

>

> Can you say more about this Ken? How does what she say siffer from

> the " Adult Child " folks and what are her views on steppism?

>

> P.

[Guest guest]

LOL Ken - Is the extent to which differs from the " Adult Child "

ppl? No wonder is suspicious!

P.

> >

> > 'Do you know why [Alice ] wrote the forward and afterward to

the

> > 2nd edition of " More Revealed " ? It was because she was terribly

upset

> > by the " adult child " people and steppers using her name and

> > selectively citing her as if she were a supporter.'

> >

> > Can you say more about this Ken? How does what she say siffer

from

> > the " Adult Child " folks and what are her views on steppism?

> >

> > P.

[Guest guest]

watts_pete@... wrote:

> LOL Ken - Is the extent to which differs from the " Adult Child "

> ppl? No wonder is suspicious!

>

> P.

Pete,

<LOL> Either that or I accidently hit send before typing anything.

Ken

[Guest guest]

watts_pete@... wrote:

>

>

> 'Do you know why [Alice ] wrote the forward and afterward to the

> 2nd edition of " More Revealed " ? It was because she was terribly upset

> by the " adult child " people and steppers using her name and

> selectively citing her as if she were a supporter.'

>

> Can you say more about this Ken? How does what she say siffer from

> the " Adult Child " folks and what are her views on steppism?

>

> P.

>

Pete,

I wish Alice was here to speak for herself and hope I don't get

anything wrong so just very briefly: She is opposed to the concept of

" forgive and forget and you will be well. " She is concerned with " what

happened " rather than finding one's " defects of character " / " sin " . She is

opposed to, when someone is feeling strong feelings, putting an ideological

lid on it. Alice has no " Inner Child. " She has written criticising a

sentence or two of hers being held up as supporting such an idea. (I don't

remember where the reference was but I do remember the sentences striking me

as " waxing poetic " or something of the sort, probably even predating " Inner

Child. " )

I think perhaps the concept of " what happened? " " what are you responding to? "

rather than a search for " what is wrong with you? " most differentiates her

from not only the " Adult Child " people and steppers but also psychoanalysis.

It is a vastly different thing getting a reponse, " Now we know why you are

sick. You must now forgive to be well " or " You must put that in your fourth

step written confession " from a supportive response (e.g. being angry _along

with_ a woman who was raped by her father at ten years of age).

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

Well look who's back in town, little jimmie y! And he comes in out of

nowhere with a chickenshit broadside just like his little sister,

paulie d. Hey girls, if I can get you a hundred tickets to this would

that get you little paternalistic-liberal-despotic- " compassionate "

shit heads out of here?

http://www.outreach.utk.edu/jackson/dumboride.jpg

>

> > In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > pauldiener@p... writes:

> >

> >

> > This is a sheer crock of shit.

>

> Mona,

>

> I _loved_ it. <VBG>

>

> Regards,

>

> Ken

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Geez, have you been taking trolling lessions from the Church of

$cientology? This is straight out of the training manual for the droids who

post to alt.religion.scientology.

And I know you won't be able to resist the urge to respond, even

though I'll never read it.

Killfilter ready, aim -----> PLONK!

-- Bob Marshall

Re: ken re stuff

>

>

>

>

> MonaHolland@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > pauldiener@... writes:

> >

> >

> > This is a sheer crock of shit.

>

> Mona,

>

> I _loved_ it. <VBG>

>

> Regards,

>

> Ken

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What's has been 'more revealed' by Ragge and his acolytes is more or less

what I expected :

- a hatred for 'romantic visions of the poor', aka, anger at any

realistic exposition of economic exploitation.

- an instinctive embrace of German nazi-collaborators

- support for Vietnam war criminals (including the openly stated

injunction that Vietnamese women and children, even those unarmed and held

in custody, deserved to be murdered, in retribution for the general

populations resistance to the American attempt at conquest).

- A defense of America's historical treatment of Native Americans and

African-Americans, ie, of racism.

- a total lack of concern with the contemporary American foreign

aggression, eg, Colombia

- a whining and narcissistic self-pity, reflected in imaginary,

occultic 'diseases' (eg, 'codependency', universal 'child abuse'). In

fact, the true base of these dis-eases simply is the economic distress of

the lower-middle class. As a class, these are doing much less well than

their 'Mommies' and 'Daddies' did. Hence, they feel 'soul raped', hostile

to their own parents and elders who have bequeathed them so little, and

hatred for the corporate elite who have ill-served them. Most, they hate

the masses below, into which they fear they might sink, and who they view as

a riva claimants to shrinking resources.

The American petite bougeoisie has real conflicts with the corporate

elite, and with that elite's 'higher power' mythology. Szasz, Friedman,

Buckley, and other recognized ideologues of 'small business' reaction, have

criticized the corporate War On Drugs with its 12-Step rationale. But

petite bourgeois opponents of corporate 12-Stepping are no friends of common

people.

Progressives should avoid the likes of Ragge and his acolytes. They make

dangerous allies, with their racist, proto-fascist opinions. I think the

postings in this forum document this assertion. Progressives need to be

aware that not just the 'recovery movement' is dangerous, but so also is the

'recovery from recovery' movement. They are just two different varieties of

American, middle-class, occultic, political thought. Progressives need to

plant their feet on firmer ground.

I readily accept the acrimony of the " libertarians " who post here,

including Ragge himself. I was never a friend of your movement, nor of

America's angry petite bourgeoisie. You 'soul rape' only garners my

distain.

Re: ken re stuff

>

>

> MonaHolland@... wrote:

>

> > In a message dated 6/4/01 10:28:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > pauldiener@... writes:

> >

> >

> > This is a sheer crock of shit.

>

> Mona,

>

> I _loved_ it. <VBG>

>

> Regards,

>

> Ken

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

My hostility toward some of the extreme right-wing opinion vented on this forum has already led me into trouble. I get so hot under the collar reading praise for nazi collaborators or American war criminals, that I rush to reply without waiting to cool down. That has led me, on a couple of occasions, to overstate my case, or even make factual errors. I want to try to avoid this in the future, and in answering your question. Let me preface then by denying any expertise in international government or economics, though I have an avocational interest.

Cuba seems to have some of the best public health and education accomplishments in all of Latin America, despite a decades long blockade and the near state of war that has long existed with the U.S. If I had a choice of living in Cuba, or Guatemala, Cuba would clearly be my choice.

But Guevarra, when he left for Boliva, noted that Cubans could not really be free until all peoples were free. The world is one system, he thought. There are ideas that Guevarra had that I would not agree with, but I agree with this one.

The Castro-group has held power for a long time. They are undoubtedly popular with a large, mostly poor, segment of the population. They have focused on aiding the most disadvantaged. Political liberty is severely curtailed in Cuba. This is lamentable. But were political controls relaxed, the island would probably fall quickly to a U.S. backed coup, as in Guatemala in 1954. This all proves Guevarra right, I think. You can't establish real justice and equality on an island only; it is the whole world, or, in the end, nothing.

Scandanavian socialism has been much praised. But it lived in collaboration with Nazi Germany, and then under the N.A.T.O. umbrella. Its unique placement, and ability to play the USSR off against the U.S., allowed it to enjoy much prosperity and low military costs. It was an atmosphere in which 'fraternity' could prosper. But this is changing. Scandanavian states have been hard hit by world economic trends, and more is to come. Nazi economics, by the way, borrowed heavily fom the Scandanavian model, and so did Keynes. In a real sense, both German National Socialism, and Keynesian welfare state economics, can be traced back to the thinking of Swedish economists early in the century. I am not sure what to make of this fact. (I don't think it leads to Hayek's answer, though some of his warnings are legitimate). One thing, I suppose, is that we must admit that National Socialism was really a form of heretical socialism, and not just reactionary. .

On China, I am mostly ignorant. I have read some, and know some colleagues who specialize in the culture and have done fieldwork in the nation. In the 1960s, I travelled for a time with the October League, later called CP-ML. I still think they had a lot of good ideas, but never fully grasped the extent of the danger of revisionism in China, or of fascism in the U.S. The CP-ML is now defunct.

China seems, like the USSR before it, to have rapidly moved from popular revolution to state-capitalist revisionism. Economic growth has been very impressive, but political repression has been severe. I have a friend (Ph.D. in chemistry) from Shanghai now resident in the U.S. His stories of CP corruption are right out of Animal Farm. How this all balances out exactly, I am reluctant here to conclude. I think I am more negative than positive re the current Chinese regime. But I am unsure if there was a better alternative historically available.

I think we have to be very realistic about 'real socialisms', and look them straight in the eye. Again, I admire Orwell's willingness to see facts, and not see what his heart would have liked. He remained a socialist to his death, you know, but hated Stalinism from the beginning.

In this forum, I have not offered specific, concrete solutions, nor suggested a political platform, nor even identified what political party or international movement I now favor. The world is a damn complex place. I know that. I also am quite aware of my own limits and ignorance.

It isn't that I don't have specific ideas on concrete issues, don't see possibilities for practical alliances, or am not a member of a political movement. Rather, I view my decisions on these things as tenative, and open to revision. And I would not push my concrete, practical decisions on you.

Instead, in this forum, I have focused on a few basic values.

I have espoused economic and political equality, not just in the U.S., but worldwide. This may seem so vague as to be of little use. But a journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step. And that first step sets the direction for the entire journey. .

Ragge and his acolytes have taken their first step -toward PERSONAL 'recovery'. The language they have use is occultic and mystical, but the underlying politics has been brought out. Their personal, petite bourgeois 'recovery from recovery' journey is NECESSARILY in conflict with the mass of people underneath them in the class hierarchy. There are ever-scarcer resources, and a PERSONAL recovery must, therefore, conflict with the welfare of others. When Ragge and his acolytes rail against the poor, sympathize with nazi-collaborators, or embrace Vietnam-era war criminals, this is not accidental. It is built right into Ragge's vision of personal 'recovery from the recovery movement'. Personal recovery from any 'soul rape', in a competitive economy in decline, must put the person into conflict with those below him/her, who also has needs that should be met. This petitie bourgeois selfishness is hidden in Ragge's writings; I have sought to bring it out and make it explicit.

This has been a mostly negative task. But I have combined it with a call to SOCIAL and COMMUNAL commitment. Because the fundamental value difference between a social commitment, and a commitment to PERSONAL recovery, is so sharp, this has led to bitter, angry exchanges. This is unfortunate, but was unavoidable. There was no other way to get at the truth.

I have suggested an alternative first step, one in the direction of a commitment to global justice and equality. It is only a first step. And the journey may well be ten thousand miles. But even such a small beginning is better than standing still.

I have no detailed map for the future. I am not bright enough to draw one. But I trust common people to build the road to equality as they travel along it. I think this is the right direction to trave, even though my own limited vision can see no further ahead than the next hilltop. .

Re: ken re stuff

Hewlett and West take adifferent position. They say the decay and crisis in American societyresults from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It isan ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice. If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happilyaccept the label.

,

How would you compare Scandinavian socialism with Cuban/Chinese socialism?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks, I think I understand more where you're coming from. Have your read anything by Alvin Gouldner, more specifically, The Dialect of Ideology and Technology, The Origins, Grammar, and Future of Ideology, 1976, Seabury Press. It came out just after the Nixon/Kissinger rule.

Dave Trippel

Re: ken re stuff

Hewlett and West take adifferent position. They say the decay and crisis in American societyresults from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It isan ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice. If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happilyaccept the label.

,

How would you compare Scandinavian socialism with Cuban/Chinese socialism?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

No. Is it a good one? The title is intriguing. I'll put it on the list!

Re: ken re stuff

Hewlett and West take adifferent position. They say the decay and crisis in American societyresults from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It isan ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice. If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happilyaccept the label.

,

How would you compare Scandinavian socialism with Cuban/Chinese socialism?

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Here's some of the inside dust flap (1976)

"In the Dialectic of Ideology and Technology he continues ... to integrate the sweep of his empirical work.

"Here Gouldner focuses on ideology as a symbol system, and analyzes the manner in which ideological symbol systems constitiute an advance beyond previous symbol systems, such as religion and myth. Both ideology and sociology are seen as related to the revolution in printing technology and to the breakthrough of bourgeois society. Ideologie's special importance for the unique class system of bourgeois societies and its subsequent attenuation by bourgeoisie consumerism are studied. Here the argument rejects the "end of ideology" thesis, counterposing to it the failure of ideology and the consequent legitimation-crisis of capitalist societies.

The study moves toward the formulation of a modern politics that centers on the effort to socialize the new means of communication and seeks to build a unified polity of humanistic intellectuals."

"Alvin W. Gouldner is Professor of Sociology at the University of Amsterdam and also Max Weber Rsearch Professor of Social Theory at Washington University in St. Louis."

He also wrote a book in 1971 called The Coming Crisis of Western Sociology which I haven't read. This title is curiously similar to Ron Roizen's Paper The Coming Crisis In Alcohol Social Science, 2000 http://www.roizen.com/ron/crisis.htm which I think I've linked to before.

DT (Dave Trippel)

Re: ken re stuff

Hewlett and West take adifferent position. They say the decay and crisis in American societyresults from the planned actions of corporate and political elites. It isan ATTACK upon parents. They have facts. You only have cultic guru, Alice. If siding with Hewlett and West makes me an ideologue, I happilyaccept the label.

,

How would you compare Scandinavian socialism with Cuban/Chinese socialism?

Dave Trippel