spiritual vs secular

[Guest guest]

There has been quite a debate going on in the sociology of religion

literature re 'secularization', a thesis popular only a few years ago in the

U.S. Today, the explosion of 'spirituality' has swamped the idea of

secularization in this country. On the continent, however, where the

welfare apparatus still endures, most sociologists continue to report that

secularization marches on. They reject 'spirituality' in favor of

'materialism', mostly.

One fascinating work is Sommerville's The Secularization of Early

Modern England, 1992, Oxford. Those of you who feel some affinity to

'atheism' might find it very interesting.

One point made is salient here: " the common notion of a unitary, linear

and inevitable decline of religion is only an assumption, and one which

falsifies the evidence. . . . Actual societies move back and forth on a

continuum. . . . " (p. 5)

Secularization burst over England in only a decade or two. The

transformation was quite shocking. Underlying it was a vast transfer of

economic resources and political power. This transfer brought with it a

change in ideology, and a change in socialization practices. It involved a

whole new way of organizing the economy and society, and of viewing

" reality " .

" When Hobbes defined God as matter, contemporaries understood him to mean

that God did not exist " (p. 153, he cites S. Mintz, 1969, The Hunting of

Leviathan, Cambridge, here, which is also worth looking at).

" The total amount of Church land that changed hands between 1536 and the

end of the century probably reached something over a quarter of ALL the land

in England " (p. 20).

Vast wealth and power was seized by the crown, or by private interests. It

was this POLITICAL and ECONOMIC dynamic that drove the secularization

revolution. Religion, the author concludes, " is best defined in terms of

power. " (p. 63)

And, as power and its application change, 'religion' waxes and wanes -

periods of 'spirituality' give way to secularization, and then comes another

'religious revival'. It is important to see secular, material 'social

controls', and religious, 'spiritual' social controls, as two fundamentally

different ways of organizing and running a social system. Both work. But

these two 'regimes of power' work differently. And they have, historically,

been employed in different societies at different times.

Sommerville's book is filled with data and empirical examples, and has

some thousand or so references. A real gem.

'Medicine', fits into 'secular' political regimes in a different way from

the manner in which it fits into 'spiritual' political regimes. A useful

reference here is Harold Cook, The Decline of the Old Medical Regime in

Stuart England, Ithaca: Cornell.

Cook remarks, " The world in which most traditional healers acted was not

divided nto distinct material and spiritual parts. Minds, spirits,

appearances, objects, all mingled with one another in ways that some

well-educated contemporaries termed superstititous. " (p. 31)

What Ragge, and others, see as cultic and superstitious is, in fact, a

very old pattern. It is one that has flourished, then been suppressed, then

flourished again, as the POLITICAL and ECONOMIC dynamic of social

organization changed. At times, political leaders have imposed a 'secular'

world view, and managed the state in a 'secular' fashion. At other times,

they have opted for a 'spiritual' strategy, and thrown their support behind

the churches, or other agencies of spiritual indoctrination. Spiritual

revolutions have come and gone in history, because 'spirituality' is one of

two basic ways of running a society, one of two basic strategies of social

power.

We do NOT see in history a linear pattern, with 'religious' or 'spiritual'

concerns gradually yielding to the 'scientific' and 'materialistic'

worldview. Technology grows. But technology is not really in competition

with 'spirituality,' since spirituality has to do with managing people more

than managing things. Instead, 'spirituality' and 'materialism' are two

different ways of organizing, and thinking about life in society. We see

periods of 'materialistic' dominance, but also periodic eruptions of

'spiritual revolution'. That is the complex historical pattern.

Understanding why these changes occur when they do is a complex business.

The 'secular' and 'spiritual' approaches to social control have both

evolved and changed as societies have become larger, interconnected by mass

media, and so on. A spiritual hunt for heretics or witches in the 1700s

differed from a spiritual hunt for 'Jews' in the 1930s.

But though these evolutionary changes are very important, there is

something fundamental - something strategic - that does not change. Thus,

we can talk about 'competitive' versus 'cooperative' strategies at many

different levels of economic development, for example, and note the benefits

and costs of each. There is something 'timeless' about the

competitive/cooperative distinction. It is the same with 'spirituality' and

'secularism/materialism'. These are two fundamenally different approaches

to social organization, and each carries with it a distinct view of

'reality'..

Secularism dominates some historical periods. Spirituality erupts to

dominate other historical periods. To understand WHY a spiritual revolution

occurs, we have to look at the political and economic reality that underlies

a 'religious' upheaval, or a sudden eruption of 'materialism'. We have to

study real history, real facts.

Message -----

To: <12-step-free >

Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 1:41 PM

Subject: Re: POLL: Atheism and 12-step-free?

> I'm an atheist. It may be that the incidence of atheism on this list

> is higher than that in the general population of the U.S. Personally,

> I have no beef with anyone else's spiritual beliefs as long as they

> don't try to impose them on me or use my tax money to promulgate

> them.

>

> Disagreement with AA is NOT strictly a matter of atheists vs.

> believers. There are many devout believers who dislike the fact that

> people in AA try to get them to modify their religious beliefs to fit

> what AA dogma prescribes. I have a very good friend from my old AA

> days who is a born-again Christian. He parted company with The

> Program because he believes that being " born again " was what saved

> him from alcoholism and that he doesn't need to attend meetings every

> day and work the Steps and read The Book and spout the slogans. But

> the AA gurus kept telling him that he hadn't done enough -- he had to

> do it THEIR way. Finally he just laughed and walked away. Good for

> him, I say.

>

> Being " spiritual " (whatever that means) does not automatically make a

> person stupid. I do consider some spiritual beliefs to be utterly

> irrational, but again as long as it doesn't (as Jefferson said,

> quoting from memory) " break my legs or pick my pocket, " it concerns

> me not. I'll amend that to say, as long as your beliefs don't break

> anyone else's legs or pick anyone else's pocket, it's nobody else's

> business. When you start beating up gays and firebombing Planned

> Parenthood, that's another matter.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> There has been quite a debate going on in the sociology of

religion

> literature re 'secularization', a thesis popular only a few years

ago in the

> U.S. Today, the explosion of 'spirituality' has swamped the idea

of

> secularization in this country. <snip>

Hi ,

It's good reading you again. That was a very well written essay. It

left me wanting to find out more about the waxing and wanning of

spirituality/secularism in the historical context. If only I had the

time!

Jim Yelverton

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim -

What is your position in the academic meat-grinder at present. I have

been reading a lot on the secularism debate. Have references; will share.

ciao. Pablo

Re: spiritual vs secular

>

> >

> > There has been quite a debate going on in the sociology of

> religion

> > literature re 'secularization', a thesis popular only a few years

> ago in the

> > U.S. Today, the explosion of 'spirituality' has swamped the idea

> of

> > secularization in this country. <snip>

>

> Hi ,

> It's good reading you again. That was a very well written essay. It

> left me wanting to find out more about the waxing and wanning of

> spirituality/secularism in the historical context. If only I had the

> time!

> Jim Yelverton

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Hi Jim -

>

> What is your position in the academic meat-grinder at

present. I have

> been reading a lot on the secularism debate. Have references; will

share.

> ciao. Pablo

>

Unfortunately, sociologists speak a different language and I don't

have time right now to learn it. I'm finishing my first year in a

Ph.D. program, and " meat-grinder " pretty well describes it. The

highlight of the year was when I told my advisor he was full of

shit. I will soon have a new advisor.

I've been reading and summarizing a lot of classic social psych

lately, and I have hand written notes on Lifton's analysis of Chinese

thought reform schools. This week I'll be reading stuff on social

stigma and even a little bit of Szasz (J'Accuse). So far the

literature hasn't really explained why AA exists (which is more your

level of analysis anyway), but it does explain the phenomena that

occur in AA. If there is any interest I can post some stuff in a few

weeks.

Jim

[Guest guest]

Jim - do you know the U of Virgina Soc or Religion Web Page. Has some

good stuff; good bibliography..

Refresh my aging memory; it was a psych program, right? Clinical?

Re: spiritual vs secular

>

> >

> >

> > Hi Jim -

> >

> > What is your position in the academic meat-grinder at

> present. I have

> > been reading a lot on the secularism debate. Have references; will

> share.

> > ciao. Pablo

> >

>

> Unfortunately, sociologists speak a different language and I don't

> have time right now to learn it. I'm finishing my first year in a

> Ph.D. program, and " meat-grinder " pretty well describes it. The

> highlight of the year was when I told my advisor he was full of

> shit. I will soon have a new advisor.

>

> I've been reading and summarizing a lot of classic social psych

> lately, and I have hand written notes on Lifton's analysis of Chinese

> thought reform schools. This week I'll be reading stuff on social

> stigma and even a little bit of Szasz (J'Accuse). So far the

> literature hasn't really explained why AA exists (which is more your

> level of analysis anyway), but it does explain the phenomena that

> occur in AA. If there is any interest I can post some stuff in a few

> weeks.

>

> Jim

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The Kettil Bruun Society for Social and Epidemiological Research on Alcohol

http://www.kbs.org/

has lots of recent info for those who want to learn a little sociologists' lingo on alcohol research.

I can't link you to any particular article because the webmaster of that page has managed to keep the url address from changing as you click through the sites pages.

As to the answer of why AA exists, I suspect it can be found through a concerted study of the US and European literature and documentation from the 1930's through 50's that relates to servicing substance abusers (people who get labled by others for doing something wrong under the influence of alcohol and drugs). Servicing includes the religious, EAP, gov't, health care, and academic fields.

Dave Trippel

Re: spiritual vs secular

> > > Hi Jim -> > What is your position in the academic meat-grinder at present. I have> been reading a lot on the secularism debate. Have references; will share.> ciao. Pablo> Unfortunately, sociologists speak a different language and I don't have time right now to learn it. I'm finishing my first year in a Ph.D. program, and "meat-grinder" pretty well describes it. The highlight of the year was when I told my advisor he was full of shit. I will soon have a new advisor.I've been reading and summarizing a lot of classic social psych lately, and I have hand written notes on Lifton's analysis of Chinese thought reform schools. This week I'll be reading stuff on social stigma and even a little bit of Szasz (J'Accuse). So far the literature hasn't really explained why AA exists (which is more your level of analysis anyway), but it does explain the phenomena that occur in AA. If there is any interest I can post some stuff in a few weeks.Jim

[Guest guest]

The Kettil Bruun Society for Social and Epidemiological Research on Alcohol

http://www.kbs.org/

has lots of recent info for those who want to learn a little sociologists' lingo on alcohol research.

I can't link you to any particular article because the webmaster of that page has managed to keep the url address from changing as you click through the sites pages.

As to the answer of why AA exists, I suspect it can be found through a concerted study of the US and European literature and documentation from the 1930's through 50's that relates to servicing substance abusers (people who get labled by others for doing something wrong under the influence of alcohol and drugs). Servicing includes the religious, EAP, gov't, health care, and academic fields.

Dave Trippel

Re: spiritual vs secular

> > > Hi Jim -> > What is your position in the academic meat-grinder at present. I have> been reading a lot on the secularism debate. Have references; will share.> ciao. Pablo> Unfortunately, sociologists speak a different language and I don't have time right now to learn it. I'm finishing my first year in a Ph.D. program, and "meat-grinder" pretty well describes it. The highlight of the year was when I told my advisor he was full of shit. I will soon have a new advisor.I've been reading and summarizing a lot of classic social psych lately, and I have hand written notes on Lifton's analysis of Chinese thought reform schools. This week I'll be reading stuff on social stigma and even a little bit of Szasz (J'Accuse). So far the literature hasn't really explained why AA exists (which is more your level of analysis anyway), but it does explain the phenomena that occur in AA. If there is any interest I can post some stuff in a few weeks.Jim

[Guest guest]

If anyone reading this is in Toronto, consider zipping over to the Delta-Chelsea Hotel, 33 Gerrard Street West where there is the international conference of the Kettil Bruun Society going on (KNOWLEDGE EXCHANGE IN REGIONAL & GLOBAL CONTEXTS: Alcohol Epidemiology, Treatment & Policy http://www.kbs.org/ ) to find out what sort of 12 step influence is taking place and report back to us.

Dave Trippel

Re: spiritual vs secular

> > > Hi Jim -> > What is your position in the academic meat-grinder at present. I have> been reading a lot on the secularism debate. Have references; will share.> ciao. Pablo> Unfortunately, sociologists speak a different language and I don't have time right now to learn it. I'm finishing my first year in a Ph.D. program, and "meat-grinder" pretty well describes it. The highlight of the year was when I told my advisor he was full of shit. I will soon have a new advisor.I've been reading and summarizing a lot of classic social psych lately, and I have hand written notes on Lifton's analysis of Chinese thought reform schools. This week I'll be reading stuff on social stigma and even a little bit of Szasz (J'Accuse). So far the literature hasn't really explained why AA exists (which is more your level of analysis anyway), but it does explain the phenomena that occur in AA. If there is any interest I can post some stuff in a few weeks.Jim