Re: Doctors selling supplements

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

We have herbals etc. here which are only sold through doctors. I understood

that you also have those products there. From what I see, most of them come

from the states.

I actually have no idea why some are sold in shops and others can only be

obtained

through doctors. Perhaps some 'ruling' body has determined that the high amounts

of ingredients they contain might be misused by the 'ignorant public'. Janene

has an anti-inflammatory product called 'Super-inflavogen' containing large

amounts of anti-inflammatory herbs which seems to work very well. Also a

vitamin/mineral

supplement containing tons of ingredients in amounts such as 4,000 times the

daily dose of vitamin C etc. She has been improving gradually since she started

these supplements, provided by her new doctor. There's are some other

detoxifying

products which aren't in shops either.

I can't answer your question as to who decided where this kind of product could

be sold - I guess my usually enquiring mind was swamped with relief that she

was being helped and I didn't think any further.

Chris.

>Your reply confused me a bit. What sort of products are these surgeries as

>you call them, buying? I.E, they are having something specially formulated

>that the patient can't get at the pharmacy or the health food store? If so,

>who regulates those products? I still think it presents a conflict of

>interests, regardless of whether the doctor actively pushes them on you or

>just has them sitting in his office which to me is a highly suggestive way

>of selling the product. That's just my opinion.

>If my doctor says to me, " hey, you need this Super Arthritis goo. You can't

>buy it in the store, but it will fix you up. It's only $50/bottle " , then I

>most likely will not be going back to see this doctor. I think that is what

>Dr. Conn is alluding to and there are all sorts of unscrupulous, money

>grubbing folks out there who will gladly twist the doc's arms to buy these

>products, pointing out to the doctor how lucrative this will be for them.

I

>want my doctor to practice medicine, I don't go to my doctor to get a sales

>pitch.

>

>Of course, I realize the drug salesmen are in the doctor's office pushing

>their products every day and encouraging doctors to dispense them, which

>they do, but to my knowledge the doctors are not getting a direct kickback

>from that, although I have no doubt that perks come along on the side. I of

>course can not be sure of that and it is not obvious, so I can live in

>blissful ignorance. I am not sure how the salesman makes his money off of

>these sales or how those sales are tracked - perhaps someone here in the

>group knows how they are compensated.

>

>I don't mean to imply that all doctors are out there selling supplements on

>the side - in fact, I've never been to one that does. I think the message

>to be gleaned from Dr. Conn is " caveat emptor " .

>

>Mark

>

>

>

>

>

> rheumatic Re: [Doctors selling supplements

>

>

>> From: " Adlard " <cadlard@...>

>>

>> Hi Mark,

>>

>> I guess it depends on just how it's done. Certainly if they're making a

>profit

>> above the price people can buy at the health food shop, then the whole

>thing

>> is questionable at best.

>>

>> One of our best local surgeries buy in products that are only available to

>doctors

>> and can't be bought in shops - they have far more ingredients in much

>higher

>> doses than health food shop products and work a lot better too. But they

>are

>> there if patients want them, and otherwise they buy for themselves at the

>health

>> food shop. I think Metagenics in the states is for doctors only?

>>

>> But of course, so many people always look for profit in everything, so I

>guess

>> for them the little lucrative sideline of supplements to add to their

>consulting

>> fees must make a considerable difference to their income.

>>

>> Chris.

>>

>> >There's an interesting article in Arthritis Today (January-February

>issue)

>>

>> >by Dr. Conn, who is head of rheumatology at Emory University School of

>> >Medicine in Atlanta, re: doctors selling supplements in their office.

>> >It seems that I have heard of doctors doing that on this list, but I

>would

>>

>> >have to dig back to find that. At any rate, the article is worth a

>look -

>>

>> >basically, he frowns on this as it poses some serious ethical concerns,

>> >particularly if you can buy these supplements cheaper elsewhere. He

>points

>>

>> >out that multi-level marketing programs are now targeting doctors who

>could

>>

>> >then prey on patients desperately seeking relief. And doctors, squeezed

>by

>>

>> >HMO's slashing their revenues, may be lured by the thought of extra

>income.

>>

>> >He goes on to point out that the AMA recently reprimanded a group of

>> >Mississippi doctors for selling commonly available vitamins and

>supplements

>>

>> >at 3 times their retail price. He points out that the AMA has established

>> >guidelines for doctors, but that they are just that - guidelines. They

>are

>>

>> >not mandatory , so in effect those doctors wishing to make more money,

>have

>>

>> >a way of doing it. Dr. Conn would encourage you not to buy expensive

>> >supplements from your doctor just because your doctor says you should.

>And

>>

>> >if you are truly convinced that you need the a particular vitamin or

>> >supplement, you should check your local health food store or pharmacy to

>see

>>

>> >if you can get a better price.

>> >

>> >Makes sense to me - I think it is out of place as well and would be

>highly

>>

>> >suspicious if my doctor offered this to me.

>> >

>> >Incidentally, I find the Arthritis Today magazine quite interesting and

I

>am

>>

>> >impressed that they don't seem to be afraid to present some controversial

>> >therapies. I would encourage you to cough up the $25 to join , so you

>could

>>

>> >at least get the magazine, or if those funds aren't available to you, see

>if

>>

>> >the local library gets the magazine or ask your doctor if you can have

>his

>>

>> >or her's past issues.

>> >

>> >Mark

>> >

>> >

>> >---------------------------

[Guest guest]

I buy all my supplements from Dr. Franco's office, not because he is my

doctor, but because he offers the best price. When I first saw him I only

bought a months supply. I thought that I could get it cheaper elsewhere. No

one else came even close to matching his price.

RA 3 yrs AP 18 mths

[Guest guest]

Mark,

I buy some supps from my rhuemo and they are LESS EXPENSIVE through him. I

have checked several places and know this for a fact.

The supplements I buy ( except for the probiotic) cannot be found in the

specific combinations anywhere else that I have seen.

If I was to buy the ingrediants seperately that are found in this

particular supplement it would be VERY expensive.

At 11:31 PM 1/26/00 -0500, you wrote:

>From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.)

>

>There's an interesting article in Arthritis Today (January-February issue)

>by Dr. Conn, who is head of rheumatology at Emory University School of

>Medicine in Atlanta, re: doctors selling supplements in their office.

>It seems that I have heard of doctors doing that on this list, but I would

>have to dig back to find that. At any rate, the article is worth a look -

>basically, he frowns on this as it poses some serious ethical concerns,

>particularly if you can buy these supplements cheaper elsewhere. He points

>out that multi-level marketing programs are now targeting doctors who could

>then prey on patients desperately seeking relief. And doctors, squeezed by

>HMO's slashing their revenues, may be lured by the thought of extra income.

>He goes on to point out that the AMA recently reprimanded a group of

>Mississippi doctors for selling commonly available vitamins and supplements

>at 3 times their retail price. He points out that the AMA has established

>guidelines for doctors, but that they are just that - guidelines. They are

>not mandatory , so in effect those doctors wishing to make more money, have

>a way of doing it. Dr. Conn would encourage you not to buy expensive

>supplements from your doctor just because your doctor says you should. And

>if you are truly convinced that you need the a particular vitamin or

>supplement, you should check your local health food store or pharmacy to see

>if you can get a better price.

>

>Makes sense to me - I think it is out of place as well and would be highly

>suspicious if my doctor offered this to me.

>

>Incidentally, I find the Arthritis Today magazine quite interesting and I am

>impressed that they don't seem to be afraid to present some controversial

>therapies. I would encourage you to cough up the $25 to join , so you could

>at least get the magazine, or if those funds aren't available to you, see if

>the local library gets the magazine or ask your doctor if you can have his

>or her's past issues.

>

>Mark

>

>

>---------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Gang! Geoff Crenshaw here.

> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:31:41 -0500

> From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.)

> Subject: Doctors selling supplements

>

> There's an interesting article in Arthritis Today (January-February

issue)

> by Dr. Conn, who is head of rheumatology at Emory University School of

> Medicine in Atlanta, re: doctors selling supplements in their office.

> It seems that I have heard of doctors doing that on this list, but I

would

> have to dig back to find that. At any rate, the article is worth a

look -

> basically, he frowns on this as it poses some serious ethical

concerns,

> particularly if you can buy these supplements cheaper elsewhere.

(snip)

> Makes sense to me - I think it is out of place as well and would be

highly

> suspicious if my doctor offered this to me.

Now folks, here is an interesting dichotomy.

Try this position... the physician, highly trained and educated in

matters of chemistry, biochemistry, physiology, and microbiology, often

with attendant skills in pharmacology, botany, et al, and with years of

experience, recommends you take a " calcium-magnesium " supplement, which

he happens to offer for sale in his clinic. Suddenly, there is

" suspicion " because he might be trying to make a " profit " off it. (Like

he isn't supposed to be making a profit off his mainline health care

business?)

Contrast this with the health food/grocery/drug store clerk, highly

skilled in the fine art of arriving at work almost on time, making

change more or less correctly, and who can usually spell physiology if

presented with a dictionary that has the word highlighted on a day they

are not hung over or drugged.

We are supposed to " trust " the clerk and " distrust " the Doctor?

I suppose there is no " added value " in the education, training,

licensing, and attendant LEGAL LIABILITY of the Doctor recommending the

product?

While I admit the Doctor is in a unique position to influence your

purchase (you might actually " believe " the Doctor while disregarding the

clerk), he is also in a unique position to give you qualified medical

advice - including supplementation. And just how damaging is the

" influence to pay an extra $12.00? "

Painting health care practitioners with the broad brush of " mistrust "

because they do or do not sell supplements (most probably at full

suggested retail) for more than you'd pay at the local five-and-dime is

hardly a rational way of using the information for which you are paying

the health care provider in the first place.

If the Doctor says you need a supplement and you don't like his prices,

buy it some place else - but don't disregard the very advice you are

paying for in the first place merely because he makes it convenient to

you to purchase the products while at the same time exposing himself to

and accepting the legal liability and malpractice if he errs.

Funny how these same folks never seem to grouse loudly about an on-site

pharmacy either at a clinic, nor in a hospital, ditto lunch lounges,

flower shops, news stands and all of the other myriad small enterprises

that seem to flourish around health-care areas. I would rather have a

physician " smart " enough to stay in business by supplementing his office

income through some minor side retailing, than one who goes bankrupt and

thus is unavailable to treat me. But then, I pay for and expect

competent advice about my health from my physicians... not from store

clerks.

Regards,

Geoff Crenshaw, ACC -----------------------

Captain Cook's Cruise Center ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

Religion: Man's attempt to discover God

Christianity: God's offer to save mankind

ICQ 60333388

[Guest guest]

Hi Gang! Geoff Crenshaw here.

Interesting thread, this.

> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:31:03 -0500

> From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.)

> Subject: Re: Re: [Doctors selling supplements

>

> Of course, I realize the drug salesmen are in the doctor's office

pushing

> their products every day and encouraging doctors to dispense them,

which

> they do, but to my knowledge the doctors are not getting a direct

kickback

> from that, although I have no doubt that perks come along on the

side. I of

> course can not be sure of that and it is not obvious, so I can live in

> blissful ignorance. I am not sure how the salesman makes his money

off of

Well time to let bliss go by the wayside, that is of course unless you

do NOT feel a 7-night all-expenses paid vacation in Aruba to attend a

" seminar " (30 min pitch) by the pharmaceutical company constitutes a

" direct kickback " . And yes, those do and have and will continues to be a

normal part of the retailing of pharmaceuticals. And you can thank those

same folks for those " free samples " they kindly leave with your Doc - so

he remembers " their " drug.

When, oh when, did " profit " become a " dirty " word in the American

lexicon? Why is the " unseen " Aruba Vacation OK, but the $6/btl profit of

the Vitamin A/B/C is not?

I know, and know of, many doctors who sell supplements in their offices.

These are the same doc's I am most likely to be able to get the AP from,

the same ones open to nutritional counseling, the same ones who spend

T-I-M-E with their patients. If selling supplements helps them meet

their expenses, so much the better as it also keeps DOWN their office

visit charges.

Three AP doctors that come to mind are the likes of our very own and

highly esteemed DR FRANCO in Riverside, CA, Dr. in Fresno, CA

and Dr. Pfau in Las Vegas, NV, as well as a host of osteopaths and

homeopaths and just about every chiropractor you can shake out of a

tree, and a very large clinic on the central coast of California that

sells an incredible amount of supp's on the side.

Regards,

Geoff Crenshaw, ACC -----------------------

Captain Cook's Cruise Center ** Usual Disclaimers **

-----------------------

Religion: Man's attempt to discover God

Christianity: God's offer to save mankind

ICQ 60333388

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry, but this one gets under my skin, no offense to you Mark. They are

talking out of both sides of their mouth here.

Yes there are some questionable doctors aka quacks selling all kinds of stuff

(but why do they exclude drugs the drug companies peddle on the doctors and

yes I do believe some get a kickback). And yes, I have suffered through some

quacks both main stream medical and alternative, the first pushing useless

drugs and the second useless vitamin stuff. But thank you very much I don't

need big brother looking out for me anymore. Lets be real, they are so

worried about people needlessly spending a few bucks on vitamins but most

drugs are very expensive compared to vitamins and guess what they push--the

latest and greatest drugs (patented of course) and very very overly expensive.

This of course isn't aimed at the messanger Mark , it just annoys me

because I have personally suffered due to the greed of the AMA. I don't even

read any of the arthritis propaganda anymore. They had their chance, and they

do *not* seem interested in a cure in my opinion. Unfortunately it often

seems all " they " want is the $. I am getting treatment with antibiotics, but

they even try to keep people from using that method of treatment, why???

Especially when it helps some people.

I may be the only one that thinks this way and honestly I don't want to pop

any illusions for anyone else. Just my opinion and a bit more than my .02 I

guess. <g>

<<

There's an interesting article in Arthritis Today (January-February issue)

by Dr. Conn, who is head of rheumatology at Emory University School of

Medicine in Atlanta, re: doctors selling supplements in their office.

It seems that I have heard of doctors doing that on this list, but I would

have to dig back to find that. At any rate, the article is worth a look -

basically, he frowns on this as it poses some serious ethical concerns,

particularly if you can buy these supplements cheaper elsewhere. He points

out that multi-level marketing programs are now targeting doctors who could

then prey on patients desperately seeking relief. And doctors, squeezed by

HMO's slashing their revenues, may be lured by the thought of extra income.

He goes on to point out that the AMA recently reprimanded a group of

Mississippi doctors for selling commonly available vitamins and supplements

at 3 times their retail price. He points out that the AMA has established

guidelines for doctors, but that they are just that - guidelines. They are

not mandatory , so in effect those doctors wishing to make more money, have

a way of doing it. Dr. Conn would encourage you not to buy expensive

supplements from your doctor just because your doctor says you should. And

if you are truly convinced that you need the a particular vitamin or

supplement, you should check your local health food store or pharmacy to see

if you can get a better price.

Makes sense to me - I think it is out of place as well and would be highly

suspicious if my doctor offered this to me.

Incidentally, I find the Arthritis Today magazine quite interesting and I am

impressed that they don't seem to be afraid to present some controversial

therapies. I would encourage you to cough up the $25 to join , so you could

at least get the magazine, or if those funds aren't available to you, see if

the local library gets the magazine or ask your doctor if you can have his

or her's past issues.

Mark >>

[Guest guest]

Geoff,

" But then, I pay for and expect

competent advice about my health from my physicians... not from store

clerks. "

Well, that's fine if you are being treated by a competent doctor. A number

of doctors (not all) I've had experience with I wouldn't give two cents for.

And who is to say that they are experts at supplements? That's a new one on

me - most couldn't tell you the difference between ginseng and ginger. And

if they're so smart and well-trained, then why do so many people end up with

drug reactions because doctors don't use those " smarts " to prescribe

correctly in the first place? ( I just went thru that experience) - and it

seems like you were making just that point in the past.

I think the point Dr. Conn was making is that some doctors are selling

overpriced supplements that a consumer could buy on the outside at cheaper

prices. As for all these poor doctors who need this extra income as you

claim, I personally haven't noticed too many doctors driving a beat up ol'

car like mine recently, unless they happen to work in rural America and take

food for payment.

Hopefully, you realize I am generalizing to make a point. If you trust your

doctor and think these supplements are something special that you can't buy

on the outside, then who am I or Dr. Conn to tell you what to do? I just

quoted the article to open a few eyes and make people think and question a

bit. If you doctor goes to great strides to make you aware of ingredients

and suggests you price shop,etc, and puts no pressure on you, then that's

great. It's your choice then. Obviously the AMA felt that the doctors in

Mississippi had overstepped themselves in selling products at 3 times their

retail price. If you think that is justified, then by all means let the AMA

know how you feel.

As for Dr. Franco, I have no idea what he does - apparently his patients

appreciate his advice and don't think they're being gouged, so that's all

that really matters isn't it? It's up to those patients to determine if they

can buy those same supplements on the outside for less . Yet, even if they

can or could, if they feel better about buying them from Dr. Franco, then

that's their business. I, personally, don't feel he needs to sell them and

you won't change my mind, sorry. That's what's so great about the good ol'

USA - I don't have to agree with you, but I respect your right to voice your

opinion!

Mark

[Guest guest]

No offense taken whatsoever, . I understand your viewpoint completely.

Sounds like you must have been visiting some of my doctors lately. I

am appalled at the high prices of drugs today and it would be nice if the

doctors would tell the salesman - come back when you have some cheaper

drugs. I don't think that's gonna happen. Some doctors are very aware of the

patient's finanncial situation and concerned about it - those are the ones

who look at you as a " whole " person, rather than just as some " bug " to cure.

I'm still hoping to find a few of those.

I,too, get annoyed when I get the frequent requests from the Arthritis

Foundation for money, but I can't say I have ever involved myself (due to

where I live) in any of their programs,etc., so I can't judge them. I have

noticed a shift in their magazine towards discussing other alternatives,

such as herbs,etc. In the Jan-Feb issue, on p.29 - there is a sidebar

entitled - " Rheumatoid Arthritis - Good News " - which goes on to say " A new

study suggests the antibiotic minocycline is an effective first-line

treatement against rheumatoid arthritis. At a four-year follow-up, people

who had been prescribed a 3 month course of minocycline early in their RA

showed greater improvement in disease symptoms and experienced a higher rate

of remission than patients who had received placebo early in their disease "

.. Now, I don't know if these people stayed on the minocycline or not (I

think this is the follow up on the O'Dell study), but this blurb is helpful

to take to your doctor if you are having trouble getting the antibiotics

prescribed for you. What I find interesting is that this very magazine can

be found in many rheumatologists offices'waiting rooms but they never read

it - too busy being advisers to the pharmaceutical companies (like my former

rheumie) I guess.

Mark

Re: rheumatic Doctors selling supplements

> From: Sjlane99@...

>

> I'm sorry, but this one gets under my skin, no offense to you Mark. They

are

> talking out of both sides of their mouth here.

>

> Yes there are some questionable doctors aka quacks selling all kinds of

stuff

> (but why do they exclude drugs the drug companies peddle on the doctors

and

> yes I do believe some get a kickback). And yes, I have suffered through

some

> quacks both main stream medical and alternative, the first pushing useless

> drugs and the second useless vitamin stuff. But thank you very much I

don't

> need big brother looking out for me anymore. Lets be real, they are so

> worried about people needlessly spending a few bucks on vitamins but most

> drugs are very expensive compared to vitamins and guess what they

push--the

> latest and greatest drugs (patented of course) and very very overly

expensive.

>

> This of course isn't aimed at the messanger Mark , it just annoys me

> because I have personally suffered due to the greed of the AMA. I don't

even

> read any of the arthritis propaganda anymore. They had their chance, and

they

> do *not* seem interested in a cure in my opinion. Unfortunately it often

> seems all " they " want is the $. I am getting treatment with antibiotics,

but

> they even try to keep people from using that method of treatment, why???

> Especially when it helps some people.

>

> I may be the only one that thinks this way and honestly I don't want to

pop

> any illusions for anyone else. Just my opinion and a bit more than my .02

I

> guess. <g>

>

>

> <<

> There's an interesting article in Arthritis Today (January-February

issue)

> by Dr. Conn, who is head of rheumatology at Emory University School of

> Medicine in Atlanta, re: doctors selling supplements in their office.

> It seems that I have heard of doctors doing that on this list, but I

would

> have to dig back to find that. At any rate, the article is worth a

look -

> basically, he frowns on this as it poses some serious ethical concerns,

> particularly if you can buy these supplements cheaper elsewhere. He

points

> out that multi-level marketing programs are now targeting doctors who

could

> then prey on patients desperately seeking relief. And doctors, squeezed

by

> HMO's slashing their revenues, may be lured by the thought of extra

income.

> He goes on to point out that the AMA recently reprimanded a group of

> Mississippi doctors for selling commonly available vitamins and

supplements

> at 3 times their retail price. He points out that the AMA has established

> guidelines for doctors, but that they are just that - guidelines. They

are

> not mandatory , so in effect those doctors wishing to make more money,

have

> a way of doing it. Dr. Conn would encourage you not to buy expensive

> supplements from your doctor just because your doctor says you should.

And

> if you are truly convinced that you need the a particular vitamin or

> supplement, you should check your local health food store or pharmacy to

see

> if you can get a better price.

>

> Makes sense to me - I think it is out of place as well and would be

highly

> suspicious if my doctor offered this to me.

>

> Incidentally, I find the Arthritis Today magazine quite interesting and I

am

> impressed that they don't seem to be afraid to present some controversial

> therapies. I would encourage you to cough up the $25 to join , so you

could

> at least get the magazine, or if those funds aren't available to you, see

if

> the local library gets the magazine or ask your doctor if you can have

his

> or her's past issues.

>

> Mark >>

[Guest guest]

> What I find interesting is that this very magazine can

> be found in many rheumatologists offices'waiting rooms but they never read

> it - too busy being advisers to the pharmaceutical companies (like my former

> rheumie) I guess.

Hey, Mark. If this is the way the system works, maybe we need to get Lederle

and other manufacturers of the pertinent drugs on the case for us. What do

you think?

Jean

[Guest guest]

My experience also. And the 3month antibiotic treatment mentioned in another

post from the arthritis foundations sounds great until you realize that is

all you get and you actually may need years of antibio usually. That is why

they are putting the Lyme drs out of business--long term antibio treatment

when the " experts " claim 3 weeks is sufficient. 3 months is worthless

treatment if that is all you get and you are very ill--in fact you would

probably get much worse than before you started. That's just the way it works

with Lyme.

<< Well, that's fine if you are being treated by a competent doctor. A

number

of doctors (not all) I've had experience with I wouldn't give two cents

for. >>