Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 Professor Airhead? That is indeed demeaning. I never heard academic people called demeaning names like that, but that was probably because it would mean that Penn State professors would be demeaned, and there were rather a number of them in the meetings I attended. It would mean demeaning a sizeable percentage of the membership in this college town. Nevertheless I did often hear that nobody is too stupid to get sober, but there are people who are too intelligent to get sober. The name I got called was " Crazy " . It was said with a smile to indicate that it was not being said with hard feelings. Crazy, nuts, flibbertigibbet... And I was a good girl. I accepted the good-natured labelling. Sure, I'm crazy, I'm nuts, I'm a looney. Okay. Everybody is smiling. This kind of labelling is for my own good. Crazy ... At that point I didn't know what was going on with me. It wasn't till I was 54 that I was diagnosed as having Tourette's Syndrome, and shortly afterward, right around my 55th birthday that I learned I have ADD/ADHD combined type as well. Once I found out what was going on here a lot of things fell into place and a lot of questions got answered. But by that time I'd already long since left the program. CAG, I hope you're able to resist this abusive labelling. There's nothing funny or helpful about that insulting name. Being " humble " so easily slides over into accepting humiliation. Surely you *know* in your own heart that you're not an airhead. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 ggoble@... wrote: > HI, > > I hadn't read the list for a while since I made my post about AA > brainwashing keeping me from taking medication that would allow me to > have a more normal life? I will say BRAINWASHING again because that > I what I believe and I don't have to say the RIGHT things anymore. > BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING! > > I am not a stupid woman. I have a Master's and worked in mental > health for years. I remember when I was in AA and I got my Master's, > my reward was a new nicname, " Professor Airhead " . I actually laughed > at that! After all the blood sweat and tears, I laughed at one of > the most largest accomplishments of my life. I laughed because the > bullies in AA, many live there, said it was so. Hey they were just > trying to keep me " humble " . > > I wasn't trying to inspire a debate about the word BRAINWASHING. Hi, I don't know if you started this or not, but I'm glad it is being discussed. The people who come in here and claim that " brainwashing " doesn't exist without ever having more that passing experience with AA, without ever having read the classic works on " re-education " and never having read " Soul Surgery, " which is a " how-to " manual for the Oxford Group and their techniques used to convert , Dr. Bob, Ebby T. et al, and never even having read Rudy's " Becoming Alcoholic. " It seems if they find a definition they are comfortable with, all they need do is use it to pretend to themselves they have an effective arguement. Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 When I was on probation for DWAI, I had a dispute with my PO about aspirin. He asked me if I was taking any medication, and I told him no, except for aspirin for a headache I had recently. He was big on AA and proceeded to try to berate me about it, telling me that aspirin simply made me forget about the pain and that it really wasn't a solution for the pain. Remember, we were talking about two aspirin for a simple headache. I told him that if I have a headache, I WILL take aspirin when I have a headache and if he didn't like it, tough. What a bunch of nitwits. Did I cause this? > HI, > > I hadn't read the list for a while since I made my post about AA > brainwashing keeping me from taking medication that would allow me to > have a more normal life? I will say BRAINWASHING again because that > I what I believe and I don't have to say the RIGHT things anymore. > BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING! > > I am not a stupid woman. I have a Master's and worked in mental > health for years. I remember when I was in AA and I got my Master's, > my reward was a new nicname, " Professor Airhead " . I actually laughed > at that! After all the blood sweat and tears, I laughed at one of > the most largest accomplishments of my life. I laughed because the > bullies in AA, many live there, said it was so. Hey they were just > trying to keep me " humble " . > > I wasn't trying to inspire a debate about the word BRAINWASHING. > > The point I was trying to make was that MANY 12 steppers REFUSE > medication that could help them be comfortable, productive human > beings because of ignorant attitudes that came from people they > believed in. I have seen people suffer needlessly allot since 1983 > because they were terrified of becoming drug addicts, drinking again > or worse, losing the acceptance of the group. > > As for me, I think I finally found a medication that could actually > allow me to return to a more " normal " activity level. It is my dream > to work in a career again. This medication in the tiniest dosage may > make it possible. > > When the pain left, so did the horrible pit of depression. > > Life is so short. It's too short for me to waste my time being hurt > or hurting others. I am not in pain and I am enjoying every minute. > I don't care who has a problem with my meds becauses I can once again > do the simplest things other's take for granted. > > I ask you who really cares about a word? I remember when I was in AA > and people bitterly argued over whether they were " recovering " > or " recovered " . People would spend hours doing this while their > families waited for their return. Nuts. > > I appreciate the folks who related stories about chronic pain, and > other situations where they or family members had to take " mood > altering " medication to live. > > Ann said something about the people here trying to figure out what > happened. She is so right. Some of us spent years going along with > the program, blindly. When the light goes on, we wonder just how > things went as far as they did. > > I came here because 18 years of being in AA and my entire childhood > being a family member of an AA member wrecked havoc on my life. I > didn't know how to think for myself nor did I think it was okay to do > so. > > Some of the kind people here shared with me and gave me the support I > needed to finally be myself or at least find out who that really is. > > > CAG > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 The point was not the aspirin. The point was the berating. Now, ask yourself, what message do courts and the legal system send when they order you to be berated and demeaned. They send the message 'YOU ARE POWERLESS.' AA is only one messenger carrying this message to the people from the elite at this time. Did I cause this? > > > > HI, > > > > I hadn't read the list for a while since I made my post about AA > > brainwashing keeping me from taking medication that would allow me to > > have a more normal life? I will say BRAINWASHING again because that > > I what I believe and I don't have to say the RIGHT things anymore. > > BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING! > > > > I am not a stupid woman. I have a Master's and worked in mental > > health for years. I remember when I was in AA and I got my Master's, > > my reward was a new nicname, " Professor Airhead " . I actually laughed > > at that! After all the blood sweat and tears, I laughed at one of > > the most largest accomplishments of my life. I laughed because the > > bullies in AA, many live there, said it was so. Hey they were just > > trying to keep me " humble " . > > > > I wasn't trying to inspire a debate about the word BRAINWASHING. > > > > The point I was trying to make was that MANY 12 steppers REFUSE > > medication that could help them be comfortable, productive human > > beings because of ignorant attitudes that came from people they > > believed in. I have seen people suffer needlessly allot since 1983 > > because they were terrified of becoming drug addicts, drinking again > > or worse, losing the acceptance of the group. > > > > As for me, I think I finally found a medication that could actually > > allow me to return to a more " normal " activity level. It is my dream > > to work in a career again. This medication in the tiniest dosage may > > make it possible. > > > > When the pain left, so did the horrible pit of depression. > > > > Life is so short. It's too short for me to waste my time being hurt > > or hurting others. I am not in pain and I am enjoying every minute. > > I don't care who has a problem with my meds becauses I can once again > > do the simplest things other's take for granted. > > > > I ask you who really cares about a word? I remember when I was in AA > > and people bitterly argued over whether they were " recovering " > > or " recovered " . People would spend hours doing this while their > > families waited for their return. Nuts. > > > > I appreciate the folks who related stories about chronic pain, and > > other situations where they or family members had to take " mood > > altering " medication to live. > > > > Ann said something about the people here trying to figure out what > > happened. She is so right. Some of us spent years going along with > > the program, blindly. When the light goes on, we wonder just how > > things went as far as they did. > > > > I came here because 18 years of being in AA and my entire childhood > > being a family member of an AA member wrecked havoc on my life. I > > didn't know how to think for myself nor did I think it was okay to do > > so. > > > > Some of the kind people here shared with me and gave me the support I > > needed to finally be myself or at least find out who that really is. > > > > > > CAG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 I say again, unless you are in the custody of another person or entity, it is inaccurate to call any influence that they exert on your behavior or thoughts brainwashing. It is also inflationary towards the meaning of the term, as far as considering the plight of persona who truly have been subjected to brainwashing. Mike. Re: Did I cause this? > > > ggoble@... wrote: > > > HI, > > > > I hadn't read the list for a while since I made my post about AA > > brainwashing keeping me from taking medication that would allow me to > > have a more normal life? I will say BRAINWASHING again because that > > I what I believe and I don't have to say the RIGHT things anymore. > > BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING! > > > > I am not a stupid woman. I have a Master's and worked in mental > > health for years. I remember when I was in AA and I got my Master's, > > my reward was a new nicname, " Professor Airhead " . I actually laughed > > at that! After all the blood sweat and tears, I laughed at one of > > the most largest accomplishments of my life. I laughed because the > > bullies in AA, many live there, said it was so. Hey they were just > > trying to keep me " humble " . > > > > I wasn't trying to inspire a debate about the word BRAINWASHING. > > Hi, > > I don't know if you started this or not, but I'm glad it is being discussed. > The people who come in here and claim that " brainwashing " doesn't exist > without ever having more that passing experience with AA, without ever having > read the classic works on " re-education " and never having read " Soul > Surgery, " which is a " how-to " manual for the Oxford Group and their > techniques used to convert , Dr. Bob, Ebby T. et al, and never even > having read Rudy's " Becoming Alcoholic. " It seems if they find a definition > they are comfortable with, all they need do is use it to pretend to > themselves they have an effective arguement. > > Ken Ragge > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 I think you did the right thing. Fuck them, if thy try to tell you what to do. Mike. Did I cause this? > > > > HI, > > > > I hadn't read the list for a while since I made my post about AA > > brainwashing keeping me from taking medication that would allow me to > > have a more normal life? I will say BRAINWASHING again because that > > I what I believe and I don't have to say the RIGHT things anymore. > > BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING! > > > > I am not a stupid woman. I have a Master's and worked in mental > > health for years. I remember when I was in AA and I got my Master's, > > my reward was a new nicname, " Professor Airhead " . I actually laughed > > at that! After all the blood sweat and tears, I laughed at one of > > the most largest accomplishments of my life. I laughed because the > > bullies in AA, many live there, said it was so. Hey they were just > > trying to keep me " humble " . > > > > I wasn't trying to inspire a debate about the word BRAINWASHING. > > > > The point I was trying to make was that MANY 12 steppers REFUSE > > medication that could help them be comfortable, productive human > > beings because of ignorant attitudes that came from people they > > believed in. I have seen people suffer needlessly allot since 1983 > > because they were terrified of becoming drug addicts, drinking again > > or worse, losing the acceptance of the group. > > > > As for me, I think I finally found a medication that could actually > > allow me to return to a more " normal " activity level. It is my dream > > to work in a career again. This medication in the tiniest dosage may > > make it possible. > > > > When the pain left, so did the horrible pit of depression. > > > > Life is so short. It's too short for me to waste my time being hurt > > or hurting others. I am not in pain and I am enjoying every minute. > > I don't care who has a problem with my meds becauses I can once again > > do the simplest things other's take for granted. > > > > I ask you who really cares about a word? I remember when I was in AA > > and people bitterly argued over whether they were " recovering " > > or " recovered " . People would spend hours doing this while their > > families waited for their return. Nuts. > > > > I appreciate the folks who related stories about chronic pain, and > > other situations where they or family members had to take " mood > > altering " medication to live. > > > > Ann said something about the people here trying to figure out what > > happened. She is so right. Some of us spent years going along with > > the program, blindly. When the light goes on, we wonder just how > > things went as far as they did. > > > > I came here because 18 years of being in AA and my entire childhood > > being a family member of an AA member wrecked havoc on my life. I > > didn't know how to think for myself nor did I think it was okay to do > > so. > > > > Some of the kind people here shared with me and gave me the support I > > needed to finally be myself or at least find out who that really is. > > > > > > CAG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 agreed Re: Did I cause this? > > > > > > > > ggoble@... wrote: > > > > > HI, > > > > > > I hadn't read the list for a while since I made my post about AA > > > brainwashing keeping me from taking medication that would allow me to > > > have a more normal life? I will say BRAINWASHING again because that > > > I what I believe and I don't have to say the RIGHT things anymore. > > > BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING, BRAINWASHING! > > > > > > I am not a stupid woman. I have a Master's and worked in mental > > > health for years. I remember when I was in AA and I got my Master's, > > > my reward was a new nicname, " Professor Airhead " . I actually laughed > > > at that! After all the blood sweat and tears, I laughed at one of > > > the most largest accomplishments of my life. I laughed because the > > > bullies in AA, many live there, said it was so. Hey they were just > > > trying to keep me " humble " . > > > > > > I wasn't trying to inspire a debate about the word BRAINWASHING. > > > > Hi, > > > > I don't know if you started this or not, but I'm glad it is being > discussed. > > The people who come in here and claim that " brainwashing " doesn't exist > > without ever having more that passing experience with AA, without ever > having > > read the classic works on " re-education " and never having read " Soul > > Surgery, " which is a " how-to " manual for the Oxford Group and their > > techniques used to convert , Dr. Bob, Ebby T. et al, and never even > > having read Rudy's " Becoming Alcoholic. " It seems if they find a > definition > > they are comfortable with, all they need do is use it to pretend to > > themselves they have an effective arguement. > > > > Ken Ragge > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 The people who come in here and claim that "brainwashing" doesn't exist without ever having more that passing experience with AA, without ever having read the classic works on "re-education" and never having read "Soul Surgery," which is a "how-to" manual for the Oxford Group and their techniques used to convert , Dr. Bob, Ebby T. et al, and never even having read Rudy's "Becoming Alcoholic." It seems if they find a definition they are comfortable with, all they need do is use it to pretend to themselves they have an effective arguement. Well Ken, I assume you don't believe Apple is among those merely pretending to have effective arguments on the cult/brainwashing matter. The following is taken from the scholalrly writings from the UVA site index for which she provides a link -- which site includes AA as a cult. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- The Brainwashing Controversy Introduction | Links | Bibliography | The concept "brainwashing" first came into public use during the Korean War in the 1950s as an explanation for why a few American GIs defected to the Communists. The two most authoritative studies of the Korean War defections concluded that "brainwashing" was an inappropriate concept to account for this renunciation of U.S. citizenship. When several new religions came into high profile during the youth counter-culture of the 1960s and 70s the concept of "brainwashing" was again employed as a culturally acceptable explanation to account for the fact that some idealistic "flower children" came under the influence of "cult" leaders. A quarter-of-a-century of scholarly research on why people join new religions has come to essentially the same conclusion as the Korean War studies-"brainwashing" is not a viable concept to describe the dynamics of affiliation with new religions. Defenders of "brainwashing" have used other concepts like "mind control" and "thought reform," but they have failed to produce a scholarly literature to support their claims. Thus, whatever euphemisms may be employed, the basic conclusion against the brainwashing thesis is not altered. Still, the mass media continues to report claims of "brainwashing" as if the alleged phenomenon were real. And, as a result, the concept of "brainwashing" sustains considerable currency in popular culture. It is, to be sure, a powerful metaphor. "Brainwashing" communicates disapproval of influence by persons, or groups, the user of the term considers to be illegitimate. Given the power of this concept to communicate ill-gotten influence, the concept of "brainwashing" will almost certainly remain a central component of the controversy about religious movements. Discrimination, or legal action, against religious groups because someone doesn't like them is clearly a violation of the free exercise of religion, a human right increasingly recognized around the world. But the claim of "brainwashing" shrouds the discrimination by claiming that religious groups are victimizing recruits and potential recruits by employing powerful means of manipulation that are extremely difficult to resist. Social scientists who study religious movements do not reject the general proposition that religious groups (old and new) are capable of having considerable influence over their members. Indeed, most argue that "influence" is ubiquitous in human cultures. But they argue, further, that the influence exerted in "cults" is not very different from influence that is present in practically every arena of life. This section on the Brainwashing Controversy presents materials that will illumine the history of the concept, provide examples of materials that have fueled public debate as it has periodically raged over the past quarter-of-a-century, explore the scientific evidence that is pertinent to the debate, and offer an extended bibliography. The materials presented here will permit interested persons to explore the controversy in considerable depth. My own perspective is squarely in the social science camp in opposition to the "brainwashing" thesis. Most persons and groups who promote the "brainwashing"/"mind control" perspective do not acknowledge the existence of a scholarly literature that challenges their perspective. Or, if they do acknowledge the existence of a scholarly literature, they dismiss it with ad hominem arguments. We offer ample writings that are representative of both scholarly and ideological perspectives and leave it to readers to weigh the evidence themselves. I would also invite readers to explore my course lectures on topics relevant to this issue. The most directly relevant lecture is on the topic of brainwashing. A second lecture on influence highlights arguments set forth in a popular book by Cialdini entitled Influence. The objective of this lecture is to raise students' consciousness of the prevalence of influence in every arena of life. Other lectures explore social science literatures that illumine the questions of why people join new religious movements and why most of them leave after a short period of time. Let me also encourage you to write me with your suggestions for materials to be included in this section on the brainwashing controversy. K. Hadden Last modified: 11/26/00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 Mike wrote: > I say again, unless you are in the custody of another person or entity, it > is inaccurate to call any influence that they exert on your behavior or > thoughts brainwashing. It is also inflationary towards the meaning of the > term, as far as considering the plight of persona who truly have been > subjected to brainwashing. Mike. Mike, It depends on what one means by " brainwashing. " When I use the term, (which I've probably never used as much as I have here in the last few days), I am referring to the methods used in Chinese Communist " re-education. " I am not referring to what newspapers reported in the 50s to try to deal with the shock of Western priests, ministers and businessmen converting to communism. Nor am I referring to the fictional Hollywood productions in which all sorts of tortures are used to depict " zombie making. " Of the Western prisoners who went through re-education, not one who even witnessed Communist atrocities converted. The English word " brainwashing " is a literal translation of " hsi nao. " From Chairman Mao himself, " . . . our object in exposing errors and criticizing shortcomings is like that of a doctor in curing disease. The entire purpose is to save the person, not cure him to death. If a man has appendicitis, a doctor performs an operation and the man is saved. . . . we cannot adopt a brash attitude toward diseases in thought and politics, but (must have) an attitude of 'saving men by curing their diseases.' " Certainly there were prisoners held who were tortured. This has _nothing_ to do with the original definition of " brainwashing. " It is not re-education. It is not " brainwashing. " It is torture. Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 MonaHolland@... wrote: > In a message dated 5/21/01 12:33:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > kenr1@... writes: > > > >> The people who come in here and claim that " brainwashing " doesn't >> exist >> without ever having more that passing experience with AA, without >> ever >> having >> read the classic works on " re-education " and never having read " Soul >> >> Surgery, " which is a " how-to " manual for the Oxford Group and their >> techniques used to convert , Dr. Bob, Ebby T. et al, and never >> even >> having read Rudy's " Becoming Alcoholic. " It seems if they find a >> definition >> they are comfortable with, all they need do is use it to pretend to >> themselves they have an effective arguement. > > Well Ken, I assume you don't believe Apple is among those merely > pretending > to have effective arguments on the cult/brainwashing matter. The > following > is taken from the scholalrly writings from the UVA site index for > which she > provides a link -- which site includes AA as a cult. Mona, And I might also be inclined to include the same link on a comprehensive website. So what? Is this your social science proof? The site is called " aadeprogramming.com.8 " It strikes me that rather that assume that Apple has your set of beliefs, that maybe she be allowed to speak for herself, whatever she might have to say. I'm forwarding your post to her, in case she hasn't been checking the list. Really strikes me as odd that you would be using someone who is collecting stories on a book about deprogramming from AA to insist that AA doesn't " program. " > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <---snip---> except the following link: > > brainwashing. From the site, describing Schein's model, " The experiences of the prisoners did not fit such a model [the image of brainwashing as an esoteric technique of systematically destroying the mind]...hence we have abandoned the term brainwashing and prefer to use the term coercive persuasion... " and citing Lifton: Summary of Lifton on " brainwashing: " " Behind this web of semantic...confusion lies an image of 'brainwashing' as an all-powerful, irresistible, unfathomable, and magical method of achieving total control over the human mind. It is of course none of these things, and this loose usage makes the word a rallying point for fear, resentment, urges toward submission, justification for failure, irresponsible accusations, and for a wide gamut of emotional extremism. One must justly conclude that the term has a far from precise and a questionable usefulness. " Both Lifton and Schein, who I cite, take issue with brainwashing as defined in the popular media and as the straw man you fabricate to prove such undue influence doesn't exist. Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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