Re: POLL: Atheism and 12-step-free?

[Guest guest]

Holly,

I am in agreement with you. I'm also glad we still have the right to

say this some places.

CAG

> Just curious about whether this discussion list's appeal is

> primarily to atheists. I, for one, am not an atheist, but I do

hate

> AA. I've gotten the impression that most people here think that

> those who have spirituality, whatever that may be, in their lives

are

> irrational and stupid. I beg to differ. My spiritual bent is more

> toward practicality and common-sense application of the teachings

of

> Jesus Christ, as a man, not a god, to our everyday lives. No idol

> worship or mystical hokey-pokey or anything. I take some things on

> faith because, as a human being, I need to feel like life has some

> sort of meaning. I've been completely materialistic before and I

> just wasn't happy. Why does it make someone stupid and

> irrational to believe in something they don't have empirical

> proof exists? I think thereis a BIG difference, personally,

between

> the 12-step brand of " spirituality " and what I believe in.

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

Hmmm...it doesn't seem to me that this list's appeal is *primarily* to

atheists. It does seem, however, that this is a place where atheists can

speak up without the ugly put-downs we got in the program.

I don't get that anybody is trying to discourage people who believe in God.

Rather I get that there are people here who are able to " flex their

muscles " , as it were, and deal with the destructive effects of the program.

Really, the literature says such horrible things about atheists, and depicts

atheists and agnostics in such over-simplified and negative terms. I

remember seeing the literature and thinking, " That's not me. I'm not like

that. " But there it was, this ignorant, negative stereotype which I always

had to deal with in some way. Sometimes dealing with it meant holding my

own when an abusive and overbearing stepper told me " You gotta have God if

you wanna get sober, " and tried to exclude me from discussions. Other times

it meant reading the literature and having to remind myself again that I'm

not like that, and neither are many others. Other times it meant feeling so

very alone, so different, so isolated, and dealing with that. Other times

it meant having to hold up my self-esteem after a brutal put-down.

I certainly don't want to put you down for your beliefs. I'm not going to

label you " irrational and stupid " if you practice spirituality (although I

still have a question as to what that means). I don't consider you any less

welcome here than non-believers. Speaking for myself, that is.

Rather, there are some people here who need room to speak up and deal with

the negativity and pressure we felt in the program.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

I've never gotten the impression that this list as a whole

thinks anyone's personal religious beliefs are " irrational and

stupid. " For that matter, I don't think there is any opinion on

ANYTHING that is universal to 12-Step-Free. We are all individuals.

There is no " group conscience " here. The only thing we have in

common is a distaste for 12-step ideology.

I've made it clear to the list that I am an observant Reform

Jew. I've never experienced or perceived any non-acceptance or

disrespect whatever about this. Actually though, truth be told, I

think Reform Jews have more in common with atheists than with the

faithful of other religions.

~Rita

> Just curious about whether this discussion list's appeal is

> primarily to atheists. I, for one, am not an atheist, but I do

hate

> AA. I've gotten the impression that most people here think that

> those who have spirituality, whatever that may be, in their lives

are

> irrational and stupid. I beg to differ. My spiritual bent is more

> toward practicality and common-sense application of the teachings

of

> Jesus Christ, as a man, not a god, to our everyday lives. No idol

> worship or mystical hokey-pokey or anything. I take some things on

> faith because, as a human being, I need to feel like life has some

> sort of meaning. I've been completely materialistic before and I

> just wasn't happy. Why does it make someone stupid and

> irrational to believe in something they don't have empirical

> proof exists? I think thereis a BIG difference, personally,

between

> the 12-step brand of " spirituality " and what I believe in.

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

I'm an atheist. It may be that the incidence of atheism on this list

is higher than that in the general population of the U.S. Personally,

I have no beef with anyone else's spiritual beliefs as long as they

don't try to impose them on me or use my tax money to promulgate

them.

Disagreement with AA is NOT strictly a matter of atheists vs.

believers. There are many devout believers who dislike the fact that

people in AA try to get them to modify their religious beliefs to fit

what AA dogma prescribes. I have a very good friend from my old AA

days who is a born-again Christian. He parted company with The

Program because he believes that being " born again " was what saved

him from alcoholism and that he doesn't need to attend meetings every

day and work the Steps and read The Book and spout the slogans. But

the AA gurus kept telling him that he hadn't done enough -- he had to

do it THEIR way. Finally he just laughed and walked away. Good for

him, I say.

Being " spiritual " (whatever that means) does not automatically make a

person stupid. I do consider some spiritual beliefs to be utterly

irrational, but again as long as it doesn't (as Jefferson said,

quoting from memory) " break my legs or pick my pocket, " it concerns

me not. I'll amend that to say, as long as your beliefs don't break

anyone else's legs or pick anyone else's pocket, it's nobody else's

business. When you start beating up gays and firebombing Planned

Parenthood, that's another matter.

[Guest guest]

being critical of AA has nothing to do with be critical of relgious beliefs

I'll second that. I'm an atheist/agnostic as well, but I have no bitterness toward religion or religious people, as I did when I was younger.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

im probably one of more out spoken athiests on thsi list, and dont care what

anyone chooses

to belive, that is thier business. the reason im here is those who tell me i

need to believe in what

they to do and pray how they pray if i wish to be alive and be sober.

being critical of AA has nothing to do with be critical of relgious beliefs.

[Guest guest]

Agnostic best describes me.

Out of curiosity I looked at Statistics Canada's web site, and found

that 12.5% of the population here reports " no religious affiliation " .

[Guest guest]

Holly

Again we meet on common ground. I am very spiritual and lean a little toward

the religious side, however I feel anyone who subscribes to atheism is 'ok'

in my book, and I would fight for their right to express their opinions. My

problem lies with a.a. and the direction it holds with the idea 'if you

don't get a higher power, you will succumb and get drunk'. This was pounded

into me in my earlier days, and I did get a higher power, but only till

recently did I really understand, in my own mind, what that was. I don't

give a.a. any credit for it either, because I think I would have gotten it

sooner if I were not bullied into 'believing or else'.

I find I have a lot of problems with a.a. and I would like to bounce them

off of someone, but this group seems to argue over the minutiae.

May I formally put in a request for a little consideration to this group's

original direction, which I see as helping people who are in a flux over

whether to drop from a.a. or not. Simple, but very over done here.

hope this helps Holly, I will stick around a littler longer and see. I

really don't care who feels what over what happened in Granada, (not that I

am insensitive) or what the real meaning of rape is. Lets get to the meat

guys! There are alot of people that need direction here, most of whom I have

seen quit this list as disgruntled with this bantering as I see flying from

the rooms of a.a. I would like to know where they all are. Certainly not

here.

[Guest guest]

: Concur with your sentiments re political bickering. Am

reminded of " Homage to Catalonia. "

--Cheers

[Guest guest]

Homage to Catalonia was one of the ten best books of the 20th Century,

IMHO. Best book Orwell wrote, by far. Anyone who has not read it, should

Re: POLL: Atheism and 12-step-free?

> : Concur with your sentiments re political bickering. Am

> reminded of " Homage to Catalonia. "

> --Cheers

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Want a rule : " no outside topics " ? Is a focus on 'recovery from

brainwashing' apolitical, like recovery from 'alcoholism' in AA?

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re: POLL: Atheism and 12-step-free?

> : Concur with your sentiments re political bickering. Am

> reminded of " Homage to Catalonia. "

> --Cheers

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I didn't realize that was by G Orwell. I will try to see if I can read it

for free online.They revoked my library card for being a drug addict. Mike.

Re: POLL: Atheism and 12-step-free?

>

>

> > : Concur with your sentiments re political bickering. Am

> > reminded of " Homage to Catalonia. "

> > --Cheers

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >