Re: What's the topic? (was: POLL: Atheism and 12-step-free?)

[Guest guest]

> I've been ignoring the testosterone-ridden

>bickering.

As I was ignoring the accompanying estrogen-ridden bickering....

[Guest guest]

Thank you, and , for " getting to the meat " , so to

speak. I suppose I will get the ball rolling by describing my

current situation and seeing if I get any feedback. Basically,

sometimes I feel like I need a script in dealing with the people from

AA. I don't know how this happened, but last week I was talking to a

woman I thought was my " friend " , with or without AA, and I told her

that I didn't think I was an alcoholic and that I was trying to quit

AA. 20 minutes later she got me agreeing that it was my " warped

alcoholic thinking " that was coming through. How did she get me to

twist my thinking? Of course, I was pissed after I got off the phone

because I couldn't seem to come up with any arguments. And, there is

my sponsor, who I haven't fired but have been avoiding. I was going

to call her and tell her I quit for good, but didn't, for fear that

she would try to twist my thinking around and leave me without an

argument. It's very easy to come up with an arsenal of comebacks

when not speaking with a person directly, but when the conversation

doesn't take the turns you expect, it can leave you defenseless.

What makes it more difficult to sever ties completely is that my

fiance still is an active member of AA, and I have contact with some

of the people via him. Basically I feel like a totally dishonest

backstabber because I go to this list to vent my feelings about AA

but make nicey-nice and either avoid or lie to steppers when I happen

to see them just to get them off my back. BTW...this is the longest

I've gone without a meeting. Two measly weeks. Whoopee.

Thanks all,

Holly

> tells us he would like to get on with talking about getting

free of

> steppism: " Lets get to the meat

> guys! There are alot of people that need direction here, most of

whom I have

> seen quit this list as disgruntled with this bantering as I see

flying from

> the rooms of a.a. "

> > From again, " I find I have a lot of problems with a.a.

and I would

> like to bounce them off of someone, but this group seems to argue

over the

> minutiae. "

>

> Please, , and Holly, too, and anyone else, do speak up!

Bring up

> your problems, ask your questions, start a discussion concerning

the topic

> this list was created to discuss! I, for one, would be glad to

participate

> in discussions with you.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

[Guest guest]

Hi Holly

I see two issues here. First is that you dont have to make any

explanations to anybody for not attending AA. It's your decision.

Hence, to even think about what you are going to say to them is to

some extent to continue to let them have power over you. Think of

them as like a salesman (or Jehovah's Witness) that will say

absolutely anything to keep you talking and to get you hooked. Since

you are likely to get phone calls from them and see them through your

fiance then it may be handy to use when required an effective

Assertiveness technique, " Broken Record " , in which you just repeat

your decision until the person finally hears it - in this instance,

" I no longer attend AA. " . If the person insists on talking to you,

you just repeat this phrase in response to whatever they say, taking

care never to be drawn into answering their questions or to vary your

script in any way. 3 repeats is usually sufficient. I realize this

can be a bit brutal in the social context, and you may want to avoid

that with your fiance's friends, in which case some modification may

be appropriate. " I've decided AA isnt right for me, and I dont want

to discuss it. " gives a little more information and is a direct

statement about your view on a discussion. Also you can allow yourself

to say other things providing you always *end* with the magic phrase.

If you mentally ensure that anything you say will end with the phrase

" I no longer attend AA " that immunizes you from being twisted around.

Another technique, which I actually think rather dubious and actually

passive-aggressive and not assertive, but has some humor value and

also tends to sink in fairly quickly - is " fogging " . This is

pretending to agree when you actually dont. So you mirror what

they say to you with things like:

" I know it's my disease talking AND I STILL NO LONGER ATTEND AA. "

" I know I will probably drink again [or I'm already drinking, as

appropriate], AND I STILL NO LONGER ATTEND AA. "

" I know I will end up in jail, an institution, or dead, AND I STILL NO

LONGER ATTEND AA. "

Again, not too easy without being prepared for a little embarassment,

and you might like to come up with some refinements of your own, but

the important point is to *always end with the magic phrase I NO

LONGER ATTEND AA* or similar and you will be ok.

The second point is your fiance's involvement. This is awkward

because (in their minds) AA is like the mafia - there's only one way

to leave it (iirc that joke is actually an AA one!). As well as

directly leaning on you, they may also lean on him to lean on you, or

even try to get him to reject you. I think you need to discuss this

possibility with him and ensure that he respects your non-involvement

with AA.

Best of luck,

P.

> > tells us he would like to get on with talking about

getting

> free of

> > steppism: " Lets get to the meat

> > guys! There are alot of people that need direction here, most of

> whom I have

> > seen quit this list as disgruntled with this bantering as I see

> flying from

> > the rooms of a.a. "

> > > From again, " I find I have a lot of problems with a.a.

> and I would

> > like to bounce them off of someone, but this group seems to argue

> over the

> > minutiae. "

> >

> > Please, , and Holly, too, and anyone else, do speak up!

> Bring up

> > your problems, ask your questions, start a discussion concerning

> the topic

> > this list was created to discuss! I, for one, would be glad to

> participate

> > in discussions with you.

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> > nz

[Guest guest]

Holly, don't feel bad about the fact that you're still being " nice "

to your AA acquaintances. I do that, too, and I've been " out " for

more than a year. No point in upsetting someone unnecessarily. As far

as those who try to convince you that you're leaving because

of " twisted alcoholic thinking, " I'd just refuse to debate them. End

the conversation. You don't owe them an explanation and you can't win

an argument with a Stepper, period.

[Guest guest]

Good advice to Holly, Pete.

[Guest guest]

Gread advice, Pete. I forget that I don't owe anyone an

explanation. And that I don't have to win a debate. I like the

broken record idea. I imagine it would take some practice though.

[Guest guest]

Hello,

>

> Avoid 'I don't think I'm an alcoholic'. There aren't any alcoholics,

just as

> there aren't any unicorns.

Last night in sociology lecture the professor said, " just cross off

the word 'addict' on my sheet there. 'Addict' or 'alcoholic' has a

meaning that the person has no control over his actions, and that

isn't true. People put drugs down all the time, when they figure out

they want to. They may say they have no control, but the fact is they

don't want to control it. It is still working for them. " She went on

to describe her own drugs of choice and context for using them (she is

a smoker, coffee-drinker and appreciates opoids).

I was heartened.

My text also dismisses " disease theory " quite handily. Without the

" no control " or powerlessness, AA falls flat. The person has to

believe that, or none of it makes sense.

[Guest guest]

Ken did start such a group. It died.

> tells us he would like to get on with talking about getting

free of

> steppism: " Lets get to the meat

> guys! There are alot of people that need direction here, most of

whom I have

> seen quit this list as disgruntled with this bantering as I see

flying from

> the rooms of a.a. "

>

> I haven't been paying very much attention to the posts concerning

Colombia

> and Grenada, and I've been ignoring the testosterone-ridden

bickering. It's

> not that I don't care about other people - I do, actually, and have

done

> activist work on behalf of other people (most recently trying,

without

> success, to call attention to abuses on the Onondoga Nation Indian

> Reservation, and grieving when our friend was murdered and his body

> mutilated after going to the United Nations to bring these abuses to

their

> attention and get these grievances addressed) - but I don't see

that

> getting into ego-propelled head-butting contests on this list is the

way to

> motivate people to take an interest. Nor do I think it's

particularly

> useful to bring these topics up in a forum *specifically* set up to

talk

> about a different topic. It might be more useful for those who want

to

> participate in activism to announce the formation of another list to

discuss

> what is happening in other parts of the world (as well as on Indian

> Reservations) and how best to bring abuses to the attention of the

public,

> and to motivate people to get involved.

>

> From again, " I find I have a lot of problems with a.a. and I

would

> like to bounce them off of someone, but this group seems to argue

over the

> minutiae. "

>

> Please, , and Holly, too, and anyone else, do speak up!

Bring up

> your problems, ask your questions, start a discussion concerning the

topic

> this list was created to discuss! I, for one, would be glad to

participate

> in discussions with you.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz