Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 Well, the thing is, since 12-Step ideology emphatically discourages analysis, questioning, or " intellectualizing " , and encourages " humility " (what exactly does that word mean??) and " acceptance " , it would seem that " intellectual head-butting " and other cerebral activity (including heated, non- " humble " debate) is a welcome and appropriate activity for people rejecting Steppism. I'd hate to see 12-step-Free become a " make nicey-nicey " kind of list. It would lose all its oomph and charm. ~Rita > Just an observation. While I'm enjoying much of the well-reasoned > discussion here, I find quite a lot of it is just so much > intellectual head-butting. Very little humility. I treasure a little > humility among any group of people trying to live together. I can't > help but picture some of the voices here belonging to leaders of > great influence, and worrying. > > > > P.S. I'd like to suggest that when replying to lengthy posts, only > reproduce what's necessary from the original. Click & drag to select > then delete is very easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 "Humility" is a word that is hijacked by AA- it is one of their brainwashing tools. They tell the newcomer that they teach humility but, in reality, they mean something utterly different. On pages 72- 73 of the 12 Step/12 Traditions book, they make clear their definition of "humility"; "That basic ingredient of all humility" is "a desire to seek and do God's will". It's classic AA bait and switch. While telling the newcomer that there are no "requirements, only suggestions" they then proceed to declare on page 75 of the 12x12 that "So it is that we first see humility as a necessity" So AA makes clear that "humility" is a desire to seek God and that there are- surprise! surprise! surprise!- requirements in AA. and that one requirement is to seek out God's will. ----- Original Message ----- > Just an observation. While I'm enjoying much of the well-reasoned > discussion here, I find quite a lot of it is just so much > intellectual head-butting. Very little humility. I treasure a little > humility among any group of people trying to live together. I can't > help but picture some of the voices here belonging to leaders of > great influence, and worrying.> > > > P.S. I'd like to suggest that when replying to lengthy posts, only > reproduce what's necessary from the original. Click & drag to select > then delete is very easy.> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 And, BTW, AAers are the most UN-HUMBLE people on the face of the earth. They declare themselves the chosen ones and claim to KNOW God's will- they act as if they have a red phone straight to heaven. Humility > Just an observation. While I'm enjoying much of the well-reasoned > discussion here, I find quite a lot of it is just so much > intellectual head-butting. Very little humility. I treasure a little > humility among any group of people trying to live together. I can't > help but picture some of the voices here belonging to leaders of > great influence, and worrying. > > > > P.S. I'd like to suggest that when replying to lengthy posts, only > reproduce what's necessary from the original. Click & drag to select > then delete is very easy. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 ----- Original Message ----- > Well, the thing is, since 12-Step ideology emphatically discourages analysis, questioning, or " intellectualizing " , and encourages " humility " (what exactly does that word mean??) and " acceptance " , it would seem that " intellectual head-butting " and other cerebral activity (including heated, non- " humble " debate) is a welcome and appropriate activity for people rejecting Steppism. > > I'd hate to see 12-step-Free become a " make nicey-nicey " kind of list. It would lose all its oomph and charm. > > ~Rita Rita, you must be on a dry drunk. Why would you ever want to use your mind and disagree with others -- when you can be a serene doormat, and hold hands and sing Kum-bay-yaa all the time? Come to think of it, from your analysis of the 12-Step ideology, I would suggest replacing all twelve with just one step: 1) Got a lobotomy so we wouldn't have to think any more. -- Bob Marshall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 > Come to think of it, from your analysis of the 12-Step ideology, I > would suggest replacing all twelve with just one step: > > 1) Got a lobotomy so we wouldn't have to think any more. hehe. that reminds me of _1984_, but come to think of it, after he got his lobotomy, all he did was sit around and drink... -Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 I remember an incident in a meeting in which a woman shared that she had taken her seriously ill child to the emergency room and that while praying in the waiting room she gave the child to God. Now that was one of the most arrogant statements I ever heard. If she believed in the God that she described, the child already belonged to Him. He wasn't hers to give. > And, BTW, AAers are the most UN-HUMBLE people on the face of the earth. They > declare themselves the chosen ones and claim to KNOW God's will- they act as > if they have a red phone straight to heaven. > ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 LOL! Bob...I'm glad to see a sense of humor survives here also. One of 's criticisms of the group as a whole is that it is supportive. Of *what* isn't clear to me, except that we don't want no stinkin' 12-steps I think I could hazard a well-educated guess. apparently holds a doctorate in cultural anthropology, and has extensive knowledge of religion as a cultural phenomenon. Thus, he is well-tutored in the sociology and history of American religious "cults," and in the somewhat overzealous anti-cult advocacy and of some former cult members. I believe is assuming that this list is constituted of former XA who spend their bytes telling inflated horror stories about the Root of All Evil, XA.. If we did that, it would conform to a phenomenon of which would be well aware. But, of course, we don't do much of that. And to the extent we do, heck, it's fun. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <rita66@w...> > > > Well, the thing is, since 12-Step ideology emphatically discourages > analysis, questioning, or " intellectualizing " , and encourages " humility " > (what exactly does that word mean??) and " acceptance " , it would seem that > " intellectual head-butting " and other cerebral activity (including heated, > non- " humble " debate) is a welcome and appropriate activity for people > rejecting Steppism. > > > > I'd hate to see 12-step-Free become a " make nicey-nicey " kind of > list. It would lose all its oomph and charm. > > > > ~Rita > > > Rita, you must be on a dry drunk. Why would you ever want to use > your mind and disagree with others -- when you can be a serene doormat, and > hold hands and sing Kum-bay-yaa all the time? > Come to think of it, from your analysis of the 12-Step ideology, I > would suggest replacing all twelve with just one step: > > 1) Got a lobotomy so we wouldn't have to think any more. > > -- Bob Marshall LOL! Bob...I'm glad to see a sense of humor survives here also. One of 's criticisms of the group as a whole is that it is supportive. Of *what* isn't clear to me, except that we don't want no stinkin' 12-steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 I got lucky. I was at the Wednesday step meeting, and it was the seventh step that evening. When my buddy Jack got a chance to speak, he said that humility was merely being who you really are, neither putting yourself down nor puffing yourself up. Thanks, Jack, wherever you are. (He died while I was living in New York State.) I could go with that. I latched onto Jack's definition and kept it. I was able to go through my time in the program without conflating humility into submission to God or any sort of weird self-abasement. Jack was right. (I miss Jack, tunnel-vision-afflicted 12-stepper though he was. We were pals. Jack mattered a lot to me.) Obviously it's an ego trip to puff ourselves up and come on all self-important. Less obviously it's also an ego trip to wallow in how unworthy and worthess and no-good we are. Just be ourselves. Don't try to *be* something, either better or worse. I will always be grateful to Jack for putting that out on the table when I was still new in the program. It spared me a lot of agonizing and craziness. Humility was just an easy and relaxed kind of attitude, neither self aggrandizing nor self abasing. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 In Orwell's 1984 Winston did not receive a lobotomy. I have read the book about 10 times, I think I know of whence I speak. Do not challenge me on this, I will prove you wrong. Mike. Re: Humility > > > Come to think of it, from your analysis of the 12-Step > ideology, I > > would suggest replacing all twelve with just one step: > > > > 1) Got a lobotomy so we wouldn't have to think any more. > > hehe. that reminds me of _1984_, but come to think of it, after he > got > his lobotomy, all he did was sit around and drink... > > -Cal > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 In a message dated 5/22/2001 9:46:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ghhws1@... writes: << Humility was just an easy and relaxed kind of attitude, neither self aggrandizing nor self abasing. >> So humility is Self Acceptance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Re: Humility > I got lucky. I was at the Wednesday step meeting, and it was the seventh > step that evening. When my buddy Jack got a chance to speak, he said that > humility was merely being who you really are, neither putting yourself down > nor puffing yourself up. There is a definition of humility somewhat like that in the 12 & 12, on page 58. I latched onto that too for a while, back in my Program days. The problem is, what that definition really defines is something like a combination of self-knowledge and self-acceptance. Calling it " humility " is just a trick to get sensible people to go along for the Step ride. In the AA context " who you really are " is a person with a permament disease and character defects, needing lots of Divine and Group support. The 12 & 12 goes on at length about humility in the Step 7 section, and does indeed conflate it into submission to God, weird self-abasement, etc. --wally > > Thanks, Jack, wherever you are. (He died while I was living in New York > State.) I could go with that. I latched onto Jack's definition and kept > it. I was able to go through my time in the program without conflating > humility into submission to God or any sort of weird self-abasement. > > Jack was right. (I miss Jack, tunnel-vision-afflicted 12-stepper though he > was. We were pals. Jack mattered a lot to me.) Obviously it's an ego trip > to puff ourselves up and come on all self-important. Less obviously it's > also an ego trip to wallow in how unworthy and worthess and no-good we are. > > Just be ourselves. Don't try to *be* something, either better or worse. I > will always be grateful to Jack for putting that out on the table when I was > still new in the program. It spared me a lot of agonizing and craziness. > Humility was just an easy and relaxed kind of attitude, neither self > aggrandizing nor self abasing. > > Cheers, > > nz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Oh, I don't know what humility " is " . I don't use that word much any more. Rather, I was just reporting what my buddy said, and how it helped me, that's all. Wally points out, " The 12 & 12 goes on at length about humility in the Step 7 section, and does indeed conflate it into submission to God, weird self-abasement, etc. " But I was able to by-pass that. I just somehow tuned out the submission and self-abasement and used the word to mean being myself without putting on a false face. I don't mind a bit if anyone challenges this definition. I will gladly drop my definition if others think I am mistaken. The definition served its purpose for me. Jack's words, calling attention to that sort of definition, helped me get by in the program. But now I don't need that word any more. Now I'm long since out. Huh, I just now realized I've been away from AA longer than I was in. 12½ years in the program, and 13½ years since I left. That's 13½ years I've not had to think about whether or not I'm humble. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 > There is a definition of humility somewhat like that in the 12 & 12, on page > 58. I latched onto that too for a while, back in my Program days. > > The problem is, what that definition really defines is something like a > combination of self-knowledge and self-acceptance. Calling it " humility " is > just a trick to get sensible people to go along for the Step ride. Yep. You could just as easily call it " Pride " . 'True Pride isnt about puffing yourself up and putting others down. It's about believing in who you are and believeing in yourself as equal to others - neither puffing yourself up or putting yourself down.' yada yada yada Of course, in wilson's " unversaly acknowledged " list of defects, " it is no chance that Pride heads the list " . Ironically occasionally folks do talk abt pride in this positive way, especially minority groups. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 > Yep. You could just as easily call it " Pride " . 'True Pride isnt about > puffing yourself up and putting others down. It's about believing in > who you are and believeing in yourself as equal to others - neither > puffing yourself up or putting yourself down.' yada yada yada > Of course, in wilson's " unversaly acknowledged " list of > defects, " it is no chance that Pride heads the list " . Ironically > occasionally folks do talk abt pride in this positive way, especially > minority groups. Yeah, Pete, my (and my wife's) 12-step experience has really mutated the word 'pride'. She talks about pride getting in the way of her decisions, which I think is ok if that's how she feels, but I don't even feel comfortable telling her that I'm proud of her for something. Like it's a bad thing to be proud of someone or even yourself. I guess I'll just have to work past this and just accept that once in a while I feel 'proud'. -Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Pride is the enemy of introspection Petey, as you should know. Too much pride based in the regurgitations of the research of others leads to a lack of self knowledge, except in the most chemical of terms. >From: watts_pete@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Humility >Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:32:21 -0000 > > > > > There is a definition of humility somewhat like that in the 12 & 12, >on page > > 58. I latched onto that too for a while, back in my Program days. > > > > The problem is, what that definition really defines is something >like a > > combination of self-knowledge and self-acceptance. Calling it > " humility " is > > just a trick to get sensible people to go along for the Step ride. > >Yep. You could just as easily call it " Pride " . 'True Pride isnt about >puffing yourself up and putting others down. It's about believing in >who you are and believeing in yourself as equal to others - neither >puffing yourself up or putting yourself down.' yada yada yada >Of course, in wilson's " unversaly acknowledged " list of >defects, " it is no chance that Pride heads the list " . Ironically >occasionally folks do talk abt pride in this positive way, especially >minority groups. > >P. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Nicely said. I was going to say it in a stupid way like: He's attempting to mash us, the square pegs, into the round holes he knows. -----Original Message-----From: MonaHolland@... I think I could hazard a well-educated guess. apparently holds a doctorate in cultural anthropology, and has extensive knowledge of religion as a cultural phenomenon. Thus, he is well-tutored in the sociology and history of American religious "cults," and in the somewhat overzealous anti-cult advocacy and of some former cult members. I believe is assuming that this list is constituted of former XA who spend their bytes telling inflated horror stories about the Root of All Evil, XA.. If we did that, it would conform to a phenomenon of which would be well aware. But, of course, we don't do much of that. And to the extent we do, heck, it's fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 I was going to say it in a stupid way like: He's attempting to mash us, the square pegs, into the round holes he knows Actually, that's better than what I said; pithy, even. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 Have you ever considered dog training instead of trying to discipline this bunch of anarchists? But then, of course, you could be one of these self rigtheous persons seeking failure to confirm their bias. Good luck. Bjørn Humility Just an observation. While I'm enjoying much of the well-reasoned discussion here, I find quite a lot of it is just so much intellectual head-butting. Very little humility. I treasure a little humility among any group of people trying to live together. I can't help but picture some of the voices here belonging to leaders of great influence, and worrying.P.S. I'd like to suggest that when replying to lengthy posts, only reproduce what's necessary from the original. Click & drag to select then delete is very easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 ----- Original Message ----- > Have you ever considered dog training instead of trying > to discipline this bunch of anarchists? Which is more like trying to herd cats. -- Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 Exactly! I've one long hair German shepherd inside my home and five outdoor cats. The difference is striking. My dog, Cato, is a herd animal like myself, and therefore we have a complete understanding. He can actually read my mind within his own priorities. I've often noticed that when I was thinking about taking a walk, he would start barking as a sign to hurry up. We also raise chickens from time to time, and the last time we spared seven hens and two cocks. But yesterday we decided to slaughter the weakest cock, and process him into 'coq au vin'. (This will be tomorrow) The problem though, was that we wanted to catch him in daylight, and they have a really big area to move on. So I told Cato to hold him. Within seconds he grabbed the cock I wanted and used his paw to hold the head of the cock down to the earth. Then I came and grabbed the cock's feet, and told Cato to let go. His weight was 9 pounds, and he was aggressive. After this I hanged him in a loop with head down and cut his throat. Cato got the head. We are cooperating. I could never make my five cats do this. Bjørn P.S. One Winter we hang some flesh in the trees for the birds. But the cats climbed the trees and sat on a nearby branch. We like birds singing in our garden, but the cats don't care. They just kill anything that moves. But then we haven't had mice or rats for years. So the conclusion must be that they are both useful, but needs a separate understanding to be fully appreciated. B. Re: Humility ----- Original Message -----> Have you ever considered dog training instead of trying> to discipline this bunch of anarchists? Which is more like trying to herd cats.-- Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 Are you saying you needed your dog's help to kill a rooster? Just asking. Mike. Re: Humility ----- Original Message -----> Have you ever considered dog training instead of trying> to discipline this bunch of anarchists? Which is more like trying to herd cats.-- Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2001 Report Share Posted May 25, 2001 No Mike, I didn't say that. Cato would never kill the rooster. He just held him to the ground. I could have fetched the rooster at night, because they're immobile when it's dark. But we wanted to fetch him in daylight, and we have a lot of bushes and hiding places where they're going. So I couldn't get to him. After Cato had held the roooster there wasn't even the slightest scratch in the roosters skin. Cato just held his head down. It made the rooster helpless and easy to catch. I guess you would have used a bazooka. :-) B. Re: Humility ----- Original Message -----> Have you ever considered dog training instead of trying> to discipline this bunch of anarchists? Which is more like trying to herd cats.-- Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2001 Report Share Posted May 25, 2001 A variation of the (notso) " stupid " cat story - largely irrelevant! I have an outside water tap, which on very hot days I allow to drip, since my cat seems to prefer " helping himself " rather than drinking from his bowl. Unbeknown to him, I can control the flow of water to that tap from inside the house. Sometimes my cat sits under the tap for " hours " just waiting for the water to spontaneously appear. He seems to have infinite patience and faith, since I often forget. Does my cat perceive this as evidence of his higher power at work? Hehe. Fwiw, Dog owners seemed to be better adapted to becoming AAs than we cat " owners " . I always believed it to be something to do with AA's hierarchical nature, but perhaps they just are more sociable. I'm pleased to see you maintain a balance - albeit (favourably) weighted by 5:1! ;-) Mack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 25, 2001 Report Share Posted May 25, 2001 I was just asking, when you gave the roosters weight, it seemed to me to be an attempt to portray the rooster as a formidable quarry! LOL! Mike. Re: Humility ----- Original Message -----> Have you ever considered dog training instead of trying> to discipline this bunch of anarchists? Which is more like trying to herd cats.-- Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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