Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 No, it takes two carriers to produce a carrier, the odds with EACH pregnancy being two carriers, one with neither carrier state nor cf, and one with cf. In families, such as mine, where cf women have had kids the odds change to one in two FOR THEM F THEY MARRY A CARRIER, and ALL THEIR CHIL- dren will be carriers. There are other diseases, say, Huntington's Chorea where it IS true that carrier state can be passed if only one parent is a carrier, and the disease itself (50%), but CF follows the pattern outlined above, said the gene- ticicist whom I called and who chooses to remain anonymous, I being " just the patient, " as always, and not a doctor, although I am dragging around an awful lot of alphabet after my name which does give me a little more direct knowledge of how this all works than, as they say in Oregon, " the average bear " has, said she, the soul of modesty, as ever, n Rojaswcf, mom of 3, 1 wcf, " kids " grown; verdict on Mom not in yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 My understanding is that if either parent is a carrier the child has a 50% chance of being a carrier (in other words, only 1 parent needs to be a carrier for the child to be a carrier.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 No, I think as I stated in my previous response, only one parent needs to be a carrier for me, for example, to be a carrier. TWO parents need to be carriers for CF to be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 Arghhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I always thought that only one of our parents was a carrier.... This means that all the people of the list just got very lucky not getting CF ???? that we had ourselves 25 % getting CF ? does this mean that in my husband's case, who has 2 sisters.. they were just very lucky that out of 3 kids, none had CF ??? Or am I misinterpreting ??? , mom to Leo 2 wcf -----Message d'origine----- De : Mcesana@... Envoyé : jeudi, 11. janvier 2001 13:47 À : cfparentsegroups Objet : Re: geneticsresponse No, it takes two carriers to produce a carrier, the odds with EACH pregnancy being two carriers, one with neither carrier state nor cf, and one with cf. In families, such as mine, where cf women have had kids the odds change to one in two FOR THEM F THEY MARRY A CARRIER, and ALL THEIR CHIL- dren will be carriers. There are other diseases, say, Huntington's Chorea where it IS true that carrier state can be passed if only one parent is a carrier, and the disease itself (50%), but CF follows the pattern outlined above, said the gene- ticicist whom I called and who chooses to remain anonymous, I being " just the patient, " as always, and not a doctor, although I am dragging around an awful lot of alphabet after my name which does give me a little more direct knowledge of how this all works than, as they say in Oregon, " the average bear " has, said she, the soul of modesty, as ever, n Rojaswcf, mom of 3, 1 wcf, " kids " grown; verdict on Mom not in yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 Sounds right to me. Re: geneticsresponse > No, I think as I stated in my previous response, only one parent needs to be > a carrier for me, for example, to be a carrier. TWO parents need to be > carriers for CF to be an issue. > > *********************** > This is a secular list. > *********************** > > > PLEASE do not post religious emails to the list. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > The opinions and information exchanged on this list should > IN NO WAY > be construed as medical advice. > > PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR TREATMENTS. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > Our webpage is at http://www.eohio.net/malbright/cfparents.htm > > _________________________________________________ > Post message: cfparentsegroups > Subscribe: cfparents-subscribeegroups > Unsubscribe: cfparents-unsubscribeegroups > List owner: cfparents-owneregroups > _________________________________________________ > > WE HAVE A CHAT PAGE!!! > /chat/cfparents > _________________________________________________ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 sounds right to me as well.. so what is n's genetician meaning ??????????? -----Message d'origine----- De : Lori Devoti Envoyé : jeudi, 11. janvier 2001 15:09 À : cfparentsegroups Objet : Re: geneticsresponse Sounds right to me. Re: geneticsresponse > No, I think as I stated in my previous response, only one parent needs to be > a carrier for me, for example, to be a carrier. TWO parents need to be > carriers for CF to be an issue. > > *********************** > This is a secular list. > *********************** > > > PLEASE do not post religious emails to the list. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > The opinions and information exchanged on this list should > IN NO WAY > be construed as medical advice. > > PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR TREATMENTS. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > Our webpage is at http://www.eohio.net/malbright/cfparents.htm > > _________________________________________________ > Post message: cfparentsegroups > Subscribe: cfparents-subscribeegroups > Unsubscribe: cfparents-unsubscribeegroups > List owner: cfparents-owneregroups > _________________________________________________ > > WE HAVE A CHAT PAGE!!! > /chat/cfparents > _________________________________________________ > > > *********************** This is a secular list. *********************** PLEASE do not post religious emails to the list. -------------------------------------------------- The opinions and information exchanged on this list should IN NO WAY be construed as medical advice. PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR TREATMENTS. -------------------------------------------------- Our webpage is at http://www.eohio.net/malbright/cfparents.htm _________________________________________________ Post message: cfparentsegroups Subscribe: cfparents-subscribeegroups Unsubscribe: cfparents-unsubscribeegroups List owner: cfparents-owneregroups _________________________________________________ WE HAVE A CHAT PAGE!!! /chat/cfparents _________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 Good 'cause I thought I was going crazy. other Lori Re: geneticsresponse > > > > No, I think as I stated in my previous response, only one parent needs to > be > > a carrier for me, for example, to be a carrier. TWO parents need to be > > carriers for CF to be an issue. > > > > *********************** > > This is a secular list. > > *********************** > > > > > > PLEASE do not post religious emails to the list. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > The opinions and information exchanged on this list should > > IN NO WAY > > be construed as medical advice. > > > > PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR > TREATMENTS. > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Our webpage is at http://www.eohio.net/malbright/cfparents.htm > > > > _________________________________________________ > > Post message: cfparentsegroups > > Subscribe: cfparents-subscribeegroups > > Unsubscribe: cfparents-unsubscribeegroups > > List owner: cfparents-owneregroups > > _________________________________________________ > > > > WE HAVE A CHAT PAGE!!! > > /chat/cfparents > > _________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > *********************** > This is a secular list. > *********************** > > > PLEASE do not post religious emails to the list. > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > The opinions and information exchanged on this list should > IN NO WAY > be construed as medical advice. > > PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR TREATMENTS. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > Our webpage is at http://www.eohio.net/malbright/cfparents.htm > > _________________________________________________ > Post message: cfparentsegroups > Subscribe: cfparents-subscribeegroups > Unsubscribe: cfparents-unsubscribeegroups > List owner: cfparents-owneregroups > _________________________________________________ > > WE HAVE A CHAT PAGE!!! > /chat/cfparents > _________________________________________________ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2001 Report Share Posted January 11, 2001 My sister-in-law is a carrier but her husband isnt and their daughter is also a carrier. When we did our IVF work up the scientist/genetist said 1 parent who is a carrier can pass on the carrier status to the child, but two are needed for the disease to be passed on. RE: geneticsresponse > Arghhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > I always thought that only one of our parents was a carrier.... > This means that all the people of the list just got very lucky not getting > CF ???? that we had ourselves 25 % getting CF ? > does this mean that in my husband's case, who has 2 sisters.. they were just > very lucky that out of 3 kids, none had CF ??? > Or am I misinterpreting ??? > > , mom to Leo 2 wcf > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Mcesana@... > Envoyé : jeudi, 11. janvier 2001 13:47 > À : cfparentsegroups > Objet : Re: geneticsresponse > > > No, it takes two carriers to produce a carrier, the odds with EACH pregnancy > being two carriers, one with neither carrier state nor cf, and one with cf. > In > families, such as mine, where cf women have had kids the odds change to > one in two FOR THEM F THEY MARRY A CARRIER, and ALL THEIR CHIL- > dren will be carriers. There are other diseases, say, Huntington's Chorea > where > it IS true that carrier state can be passed if only one parent is a carrier, > and the > disease itself (50%), but CF follows the pattern outlined above, said the > gene- > ticicist whom I called and who chooses to remain anonymous, I being " just > the > patient, " as always, and not a doctor, although I am dragging around an > awful > lot of alphabet after my name which does give me a little more direct > knowledge > of how this all works than, as they say in Oregon, " the average bear " has, > said > she, the soul of modesty, as ever, > n Rojaswcf, mom of 3, 1 wcf, " kids " grown; verdict on Mom not in yet! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 In my understanding it takes only one parent carrier for the child to be a carrier (50%). Liesbeth, mom to 2wcf and Kasper 1wocf > RE: geneticsresponse > > Arghhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > I always thought that only one of our parents was a carrier.... > This means that all the people of the list just got very lucky not getting > CF ???? that we had ourselves 25 % getting CF ? > does this mean that in my husband's case, who has 2 sisters.. they were > just > very lucky that out of 3 kids, none had CF ??? > Or am I misinterpreting ??? > > , mom to Leo 2 wcf > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Mcesana@... > Envoyé : jeudi, 11. janvier 2001 13:47 > À : cfparentsegroups > Objet : Re: geneticsresponse > > > No, it takes two carriers to produce a carrier, the odds with EACH > pregnancy > being two carriers, one with neither carrier state nor cf, and one with > cf. > In > families, such as mine, where cf women have had kids the odds change to > one in two FOR THEM F THEY MARRY A CARRIER, and ALL THEIR CHIL- > dren will be carriers. There are other diseases, say, Huntington's Chorea > where > it IS true that carrier state can be passed if only one parent is a > carrier, > and the > disease itself (50%), but CF follows the pattern outlined above, said the > gene- > ticicist whom I called and who chooses to remain anonymous, I being " just > the > patient, " as always, and not a doctor, although I am dragging around an > awful > lot of alphabet after my name which does give me a little more direct > knowledge > of how this all works than, as they say in Oregon, " the average bear " has, > said > she, the soul of modesty, as ever, > n Rojaswcf, mom of 3, 1 wcf, " kids " grown; verdict on Mom not in yet! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 No, you had 50% of a chance of NOT getting cf, 25% of getting it, and 25% of being neither a carrier nor a cfer: Like this: Neither cf nor cf carrier = 50% with each pregnancy, that's EACH cf person = 25% " " " " " It takes two carrier parrents to produce the above odds with EACH pregnancy; the odds don't change with each pregnancy Each parent MUST be a carrier to produce the above statistices; just think how many more of us there out there who are either " carriers or unidentified cfers! n Rojas: data from Cystic Fibrosis Foundation in USA and Cystic Fibrosis Trust in the United Kingdom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Should, as is my case, one of the parents be a person with cf, and the other a cf carrier, the odds thange: cf: one in two carrier : all sources: same as in previous E-mail Recommendation: contact the nearest office of the American or Canadian Cystic Fibrosis Foundation for this, the Cystic Fibrosis Trust in the Uk, or equivalent in your country, n Rojas who will sit corrected if proven wrong and would like to see the new data, please, as well as the source cited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Okay, so I may have to eat this one, but four major universities and the CFF tell me the following: One carrier and one carrier=the following: 1)with EACH pregnancy, the following statistical liklihood: two carriers 1cf 1 non of the above One of the things that has caused rancour in families is that parents blame each family for the cf child, when in fact, each parent is a carrier; each of their parents had to be carriers for them to be carriers, and so on, as this is a very old gene. There are obviously many carriers who do not produce children with cf as the number of carriers is likely to be twice the rate as that for either cf or non cf and the cf may not be diagnosed, nor the carrier state--until recently. However, if, as is the case with me, I have cf and I, as I did, married a carrier, the odds WITH EACH PREGNANCY THEN CHANGE TO: 50% for cf and 100% for carriers and none with neither cf nor carrier state. My sources are: Stanford, UCSF, California Pacific, and the University of Michigan, as well as the CF Foundation itself. If you still doubt this, call them, and I will cease posting. You can also call CFRI, but they will in all liklihood refer you to me. You could call Roundtable/USACFA or IACFA, all of which have E-mail addresses listed in them. If you are in ia, call the Reaching Out Foundation, headed by Burroughs who is a transplant survivor! She and Barbara Palys of IACFA are probably the most reliable sources. Happy hunting, n Rojas who spends her life hunting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 simple: each parent must be a carrier to produce the following odds with each pregnancy, and all cf persons, with RARE genetic anomoytic exceptions: 1) both parents must be4 carriers to produce a child with cf 2) with each pregnancy by those same parents the odds of having a cf child are: two carriers, one noncf and non cf carrier; one cf child 3)If one parent has cf and marries or partners with a carrier, the odds change to: 1)with each pregnancy, one of two will have cf AND all will be carriers Forget all my sources: call the Foundation (CFF) in your area; they will explain it to you, OR ask your cf physician who will explain it to you. Happy hunting! n Rojas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 You thought YOU were going crazy! Bev Donelson of the CF pharmacy posted this morning that each parent had to be a carrier for a cf kid to result: 1) odds at each pregnancy are : 2 carriers; 1 cfer; 1 neither 2) If a parent, usually the mom , has cf, the odds change to 50% liklihood of a cf child and all the children will be carriers--my situation. The following institutions supplied this information: Stanford University The University of California at San Francisco The University of Michigan California Pacific University at San Francisco and just for kicks, The University of North Carolina as well as nine others. If in doubt, call your local Cystic Fibrosis Office; they will tell you what I have told you; if that isn't enough, ask the director of the cf center you attend! Happy Hunting! n Rojas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 n, I think the confusion is the wording. It sounds like you are saying that: Since I have a child with CF, we know that my husband and I are both carriers, and my mom and dad and my husbands my and dad (both sets of cf persons grandparents) are ALL carriers. I don't think that's what you are meaning to say is it? When really we know that my mom (grandma) is a carrier and my dad (grandpa) isn't. Now we don't know about my husbands parents because they have chosen not to be tested, but either his mom or his dad is a carrier and passed on the gene. yvonne price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Hi, ; I think they say that because so many alelles have not been found, but it is not what we are being told here. n Rojas who is sorry to cause so much controversy, but glad that there is so much interest. . . . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Call your local Cystic Fibrosis Group, Foundation, Society, or Trust. All my research gives me what I have posted or I wouldn't have posted. Solid information to the contrary will be welcomed and accepted and reposted. n Rojas vwc, mom of 3, 1 w cf, " kids " grown and doing well, Mom exhausted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Hi, I went to your sights, Lori, including the dogbreeding one, and if that's what Harvard says, that's what Harvard says, but UNC andf Stanford et. al. still say that CF follows a Mendelian pattern and it takes two parents to produce a cf child; those whom I have talked with at the institutions mentioned in my posts do NOT believe that one parent can pass on one recessive gene, but they could be wrong. All I guess I can do is quote my sources and point out that all identified persons with cf in my family ultimately proved to have parents each with one alelle. And we have more cfers, more carriers than one would ever have expected. If you are right, there are more than one in 23 carriers out there and the odds of cf persons, child or adult going unidentified is even greater than we thought--which is ultimately the point. Let's find all cfers whom we can and help them--no matter how they got it! n Rojas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 sorry about the 4 which I mistyped. n Rojas, well actually typed, but wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Thanks, Gerry Rose; I am now lying on my bvack with all four limbs in the air and am panting! Love you all, n Rojas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Lori, not quite; the odds if two carriers have a pregnancy are for two, not one carrier, one naiether, and one cf, but these are only odds. Red hair is very different. With cf, we are definitely talking about a recessive gene. I'm doing some further re- search, but so far every university I have contacted has given me the same data, Iincluding the same data, that one carrier cannot pass on carrier state, though they may all be wrong. When the new data arrives, I ahave sworn to publish it, and to sit corrected, to boot--honest. Most recessive genes are not passed by a single gne, not just cf--but we will see, though I haven't determined the prize yet! n Rojas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) GRDNMOMBEV Re: geneticsresponse n, I think the confusion is the wording. It sounds like you are saying that: Since I have a child with CF, we know that my husband and I are both carriers, and my mom and dad and my husbands my and dad (both sets of cf persons grandparents) are ALL carriers. I don't think that's what you are meaning to say is it? When really we know that my mom (grandma) is a carrier and my dad (grandpa) isn't. Now we don't know about my husbands parents because they have chosen not to be tested, but either his mom or his dad is a carrier and passed on the gene. yvonne price *********************** This is a secular list. *********************** PLEASE do not post religious emails to the list. -------------------------------------------------- The opinions and information exchanged on this list should IN NO WAY be construed as medical advice. PLEASE CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN BEFORE CHANGING ANY MEDICATIONS OR TREATMENTS. -------------------------------------------------- Our webpage is at http://www.eohio.net/malbright/cfparents.htm _________________________________________________ Post message: cfparentsegroups Subscribe: cfparents-subscribeegroups Unsubscribe: cfparents-unsubscribeegroups List owner: cfparents-owneregroups _________________________________________________ WE HAVE A CHAT PAGE!!! /chat/cfparents _________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 Splitting hairs, but I think this might be part of the confusion - should say 75% chance of NOT getting CF (50% chance on being a carrier with one mutation from father OR mother, 25% chance of not getting a mutation from either parent so not even being a carrier), 25% chance of getting CF (a mutation from each parent). To me being a carrier does not equal having CF. Lori Re: geneticsresponse > No, you had 50% of a chance of NOT getting cf, 25% of getting it, and 25% of > being neither a carrier nor a cfer: Like this: > > Neither cf nor cf carrier = 50% with each pregnancy, that's EACH > cf person = 25% " " " " > " > > It takes two carrier parrents to produce the above odds with EACH pregnancy; > the odds don't change with each pregnancy > > Each parent MUST be a carrier to produce the above statistices; just think how > many more of us there out there who are either " > > carriers or > unidentified cfers! > > n Rojas: data from Cystic Fibrosis Foundation in USA and > Cystic Fibrosis Trust in the United > Kingdom > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 This part all sounds right. I think where the difference of opinion is in both parents having to have a CF mutation to produce another carrier. That just doesn't make any sense. Here is why: if a person is a CF carrier and mates with another CF carrier - they can each pass along their CF mutation (baby with CF) or neither can pass along their CF mutation (baby not even a carrier) or just one of them can pass along their CF mutation (baby is a carrier). If a CF carrier mates with a none CF carrier - then the baby can still get one CF mutation from the CF carrier parent and also be a carrier OR the baby could receive no CF mutations and not even be a carrier. (But they can still get the one mutation and this makes them a carrier) It isn't necessary for both parents to be carriers to produce another carrier - It is necessary for both parents to be carriers for CF to be present, because the CF mutation is a recessive gene and the normal gene will over ride the CF mutation. The reason CF mutations can go along for generations without appearing is the same reason red hair can seem to all of a sudden pop up in a family. It takes two recessive genes for the disease or red hair to appear, but one copy of the gene has been being passed down for generations by a parent who carries it. Does this make sense? Lori Re: geneticsresponse > simple: each parent must be a carrier to produce the following odds with each > pregnancy, and all cf persons, with RARE genetic anomoytic exceptions: > > 1) both parents must be4 carriers to produce a child with cf > 2) with each pregnancy by those same parents the odds of having a cf child > are: > two carriers, one noncf and non cf carrier; one cf child > 3)If one parent has cf and marries or partners with a carrier, the odds > change to: > 1)with each pregnancy, one of two will have cf AND all will be carriers > Forget all my sources: call the Foundation (CFF) in your area; they will > explain it to > you, OR ask your cf physician who will explain it to you. Happy hunting! > n Rojas > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2001 Report Share Posted January 12, 2001 n, you seem like a person with a great sense of humor or I wouldn't say this. But I find it amusing that you say the CFRI would refer a caller to you for genetic information. True? I don't doubt your sources nor most of your statistics. I think the only thing that somehow is getting lost in the translation is the fact that only one grandparent of a child with CF is NECESSARILY a carrier. They might both be, but probably not. Maybe this is what you meant to say? In any event, we certainly appreciate your time and research. Lori Re: geneticsresponse > Okay, so I may have to eat this one, but four major universities and the CFF > tell me > the following: > > One carrier and one carrier=the following: > 1)with EACH pregnancy, the following statistical liklihood: two carriers > > 1cf > > 1 non of the above > One of the things that has caused rancour in families is that parents blame > each > family for the cf child, when in fact, each parent is a carrier; each of > their parents > had to be carriers for them to be carriers, and so on, as this is a very old > gene. > There are obviously many carriers who do not produce children with cf as the > number of carriers is likely to be twice the rate as that for either cf or > non cf and > the cf may not be diagnosed, nor the carrier state--until recently. > > However, if, as is the case with me, I have cf and I, as I did, married a > carrier, the > odds WITH EACH PREGNANCY THEN CHANGE TO: 50% for cf and 100% for > carriers and none with neither cf nor carrier state. > > My sources are: Stanford, UCSF, California Pacific, and the University of > Michigan, > as well as the CF Foundation itself. If you still doubt this, call them, and > I will > cease posting. You can also call CFRI, but they will in all liklihood refer > you to me. > You could call Roundtable/USACFA or IACFA, all of which have E-mail addresses > listed in them. If you are in ia, call the Reaching Out Foundation, > headed by > Burroughs who is a transplant survivor! She and Barbara Palys of IACFA > are > probably the most reliable sources. Happy hunting, > > n Rojas who spends her life hunting! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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