Re: Completed first round with ALA

[Guest guest]

>

> I just finished my 9th round, and used ALA for the first time (25 mg DMSA + 25

mg

ALA).

>

> It was okay. Much like my first couple rounds with DMSA only, I had painful,

very

> uncomfortable gas & bloating by the 3rd day. I was quite uncomfortable at

work

Saturday

> night (round ended at midnight, Saturday). Yesterday I had tiny waves of

nausea, and

this

> morning I've felt stronger, but still small, waves of nausea.

>

> I know several people at work have been sick, so I suppose only time will tell

whether

I'm

> coming down with something or my upset stomach is due to the ALA.

>

Responding/adding to my own post.

I'm thinking about starting another round this week and instead of starting on

Thursday,

starting on Friday. I'm hoping to avoid feeling too tired at work Saturday

night or having

to work with my intestines distressed. If that doesn't work out, maybe I'll

start the next

round on Saturday, since I usually feel great the first day. The details don't

really matter

to the list, I've just got to figure out a way to work around a nontraditional

work schedule,

and sleeping arrangements (I'm chelating my 2 kids at the same time).

After 9 rounds, I feel like my bowel habits are changed, or sluggish when on

round. I'm

thinking about taking some extra Magnesium when on round. Right now I'm taking

200

mg Mg Citrate, 4x/day. The other problem I've had is painful gas &

cramping/bloating in

my intestines. It's not every round, but if it happens, Day 3 on round is the

worst. Any

suggestions for easing this discomfort? I suppose yeast is a possibility? I've

been taking 2

Candex at the midnight dose, and doubling the probiotics, when on round.

On this last round, my first with ALA, I woke up on Day 2 with a sore neck. It

was as if I

slept in an awkward position and my neck muscles were sore. It continued to get

worse

during the round with muscle spasms so strong my sleep was disrupted. Exedrin

eased

the pain. The neck pain was better by the third day off round. However, I then

developed

what essentially feels like the same thing, only along the side of my torso, by

the fourth

day off round. I cannot think of anything I may have done to pull a muscle. I

read the

thread on " flank pain--kidneys " with interest, and of course I'm wondering if

it's a side

effect of the round. I can't bend down to pick up anything without whincing.

Has anyone

else experienced painful muscle spasms as a side effect?

The second day off round I was not only tired, but my brain was dull, dull,

dull.

Since we are doing 3 day rounds--8 doses, 8 doses, 7 doses--if I wanted to try

to leave

the ALA out of the last few rounds, how many would you recommend? The last 2

doses?

The last 3? Alternatively, I could reduce the dose of ALA if I find I

experience the same

discomforts.

Lastly, I haven't had any chest pain in almost 2 weeks. I hope it is the

slippery elm tea

which is doing the trick and the chest pain was indeed esophageal in origin.

I'd like to

drop the taurine I'm taking and see how it goes. I have read warnings (Andy's

book and

other references) about taking taurine when you do not need it, and since I

haven't tested

for amino acid levels, I don't really know whether I need it or not.

Thanks for listening and any comments,

in Illinois

[Guest guest]

> >

> > I just finished my 9th round, and used ALA for the first time (25

mg DMSA + 25 mg

> ALA).

> >

> > It was okay. Much like my first couple rounds with DMSA only, I

had painful, very

> > uncomfortable gas & bloating by the 3rd day. I was quite

uncomfortable at work

> Saturday

> > night (round ended at midnight, Saturday). Yesterday I had tiny

waves of nausea, and

> this

> > morning I've felt stronger, but still small, waves of nausea.

> >

> > I know several people at work have been sick, so I suppose only

time will tell whether

> I'm

> > coming down with something or my upset stomach is due to the ALA.

> >

>

>

>

> Responding/adding to my own post.

>

> I'm thinking about starting another round this week and instead of

starting on Thursday,

> starting on Friday. I'm hoping to avoid feeling too tired at work

Saturday night or having

> to work with my intestines distressed. If that doesn't work out,

maybe I'll start the next

> round on Saturday, since I usually feel great the first day. The

details don't really matter

> to the list, I've just got to figure out a way to work around a

nontraditional work schedule,

> and sleeping arrangements (I'm chelating my 2 kids at the same time).

>

> After 9 rounds, I feel like my bowel habits are changed, or sluggish

when on round. I'm

> thinking about taking some extra Magnesium when on round. Right now

I'm taking 200

> mg Mg Citrate, 4x/day. The other problem I've had is painful gas &

cramping/bloating in

> my intestines. It's not every round, but if it happens, Day 3 on

round is the worst. Any

> suggestions for easing this discomfort? I suppose yeast is a

possibility? I've been taking 2

> Candex at the midnight dose, and doubling the probiotics, when on

round.

Yeast is what I'm thinking too. Are you on a candida diet?

If not, a reduced sugar/yeast diet might make a difference

over time.

Did you start that amount of Mg Citrate all at once, or did you

increase it gradually?

The nausea happened after the round, right? Not during?

Did it go away after that day?

> On this last round, my first with ALA, I woke up on Day 2 with a

sore neck. It was as if I

> slept in an awkward position and my neck muscles were sore. It

continued to get worse

> during the round with muscle spasms so strong my sleep was

disrupted. Exedrin eased

> the pain. The neck pain was better by the third day off round.

However, I then developed

> what essentially feels like the same thing, only along the side of

my torso, by the fourth

> day off round. I cannot think of anything I may have done to pull a

muscle. I read the

> thread on " flank pain--kidneys " with interest, and of course I'm

wondering if it's a side

> effect of the round. I can't bend down to pick up anything without

whincing. Has anyone

> else experienced painful muscle spasms as a side effect?

The only muscular issue I've had during rounds is the flank pain.

Maybe some aches, but my significant aches happen after ending a

round.

I wonder if you ramped up the Mg quickly and your body is confused

about how to deal with it, having trouble finding a balance between

muscle contraction and relaxation. Maybe a long shot.

> The second day off round I was not only tired, but my brain was

dull, dull, dull.

Sounds like redistribution. I would reduce the ALA dose and see

if that makes a difference.

> Since we are doing 3 day rounds--8 doses, 8 doses, 7 doses--if I

wanted to try to leave

> the ALA out of the last few rounds, how many would you recommend?

The last 2 doses?

I leave it out for the entire last day of a round. I do five

day rounds, though. Not sure if others do that with a 3 day round.

> The last 3? Alternatively, I could reduce the dose of ALA if I find

I experience the same

> discomforts.

>

> Lastly, I haven't had any chest pain in almost 2 weeks. I hope it

is the slippery elm tea

> which is doing the trick and the chest pain was indeed esophageal in

origin. I'd like to

> drop the taurine I'm taking and see how it goes. I have read

warnings (Andy's book and

> other references) about taking taurine when you do not need it, and

since I haven't tested

> for amino acid levels, I don't really know whether I need it or not.

Did the water retention go away when you dropped the DGL?

Sorry if I missed this.

--

> Thanks for listening and any comments,

>

> in Illinois

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > I just finished my 9th round, and used ALA for the first time (25

mg DMSA + 25 mg

> ALA).

> >

> > It was okay. Much like my first couple rounds with DMSA only, I

had painful, very

> > uncomfortable gas & bloating by the 3rd day. I was quite

uncomfortable at work

> Saturday

> > night (round ended at midnight, Saturday). Yesterday I had tiny

waves of nausea, and

> this

> > morning I've felt stronger, but still small, waves of nausea.

> >

> > I know several people at work have been sick, so I suppose only

time will tell whether

> I'm

> > coming down with something or my upset stomach is due to the ALA.

> >

>

>

>

> Responding/adding to my own post.

>

> I'm thinking about starting another round this week and instead of

starting on Thursday,

> starting on Friday. I'm hoping to avoid feeling too tired at work

Saturday night or having

> to work with my intestines distressed. If that doesn't work out,

maybe I'll start the next

> round on Saturday, since I usually feel great the first day. The

details don't really matter

> to the list, I've just got to figure out a way to work around a

nontraditional work schedule,

> and sleeping arrangements (I'm chelating my 2 kids at the same time).

>

> After 9 rounds, I feel like my bowel habits are changed, or sluggish

when on round. I'm

> thinking about taking some extra Magnesium when on round. Right now

I'm taking 200

> mg Mg Citrate, 4x/day. The other problem I've had is painful gas &

cramping/bloating in

> my intestines. It's not every round, but if it happens, Day 3 on

round is the worst. Any

> suggestions for easing this discomfort? I suppose yeast is a

possibility? I've been taking 2

> Candex at the midnight dose, and doubling the probiotics, when on

round.

Yeast is what I'm thinking too. Are you on a candida diet?

If not, a reduced sugar/yeast diet might make a difference

over time.

Did you start that amount of Mg Citrate all at once, or did you

increase it gradually?

The nausea happened after the round, right? Not during?

Did it go away after that day?

> On this last round, my first with ALA, I woke up on Day 2 with a

sore neck. It was as if I

> slept in an awkward position and my neck muscles were sore. It

continued to get worse

> during the round with muscle spasms so strong my sleep was

disrupted. Exedrin eased

> the pain. The neck pain was better by the third day off round.

However, I then developed

> what essentially feels like the same thing, only along the side of

my torso, by the fourth

> day off round. I cannot think of anything I may have done to pull a

muscle. I read the

> thread on " flank pain--kidneys " with interest, and of course I'm

wondering if it's a side

> effect of the round. I can't bend down to pick up anything without

whincing. Has anyone

> else experienced painful muscle spasms as a side effect?

The only muscular issue I've had during rounds is the flank pain.

Maybe some aches, but my significant aches happen after ending a

round.

I wonder if you ramped up the Mg quickly and your body is confused

about how to deal with it, having trouble finding a balance between

muscle contraction and relaxation. Maybe a long shot.

> The second day off round I was not only tired, but my brain was

dull, dull, dull.

Sounds like redistribution. I would reduce the ALA dose and see

if that makes a difference.

> Since we are doing 3 day rounds--8 doses, 8 doses, 7 doses--if I

wanted to try to leave

> the ALA out of the last few rounds, how many would you recommend?

The last 2 doses?

I leave it out for the entire last day of a round. I do five

day rounds, though. Not sure if others do that with a 3 day round.

> The last 3? Alternatively, I could reduce the dose of ALA if I find

I experience the same

> discomforts.

>

> Lastly, I haven't had any chest pain in almost 2 weeks. I hope it

is the slippery elm tea

> which is doing the trick and the chest pain was indeed esophageal in

origin. I'd like to

> drop the taurine I'm taking and see how it goes. I have read

warnings (Andy's book and

> other references) about taking taurine when you do not need it, and

since I haven't tested

> for amino acid levels, I don't really know whether I need it or not.

Did the water retention go away when you dropped the DGL?

Sorry if I missed this.

--

> Thanks for listening and any comments,

>

> in Illinois

>

[Guest guest]

,

Nausea is a stress symptom (for me). It may be that the dose (of ALA)

is a bit too high.

I know that most people would say that the gas pain and bloating is

'yeast'. This is how I think about it. Whatever can't get absorbed

or digested readily goes farther down the GI tract where it is

digested anaerobically (and I don't see why certain bacteria can't be

involved). Anaerobic digestion leads to gas production, which can be

very painful. DMSA and ALA are both not very soluble in water, so

they won't be easily absorbed. If the gas and bloating is only

happening when these are taken (and gets worse on the third day when

concentrations might be building up) then maybe it is because they

aren't absorbed very well. One thing I thought of that might help

them to be absorbed is taking some sort of oil with the dose. We need

lots cod liver oil or fish oil anyway because of deficiency of omega 3

oils, and one capsule is only about 1 ml, so it wouldn't hurt to take

a capsule with every dose. Does this make any sense to anyone??

J

> >

> > I just finished my 9th round, and used ALA for the first time (25

mg DMSA + 25 mg

> ALA).

> >

> > It was okay. Much like my first couple rounds with DMSA only, I

had painful, very

> > uncomfortable gas & bloating by the 3rd day. I was quite

uncomfortable at work

> Saturday

> > night (round ended at midnight, Saturday). Yesterday I had tiny

waves of nausea, and

> this

> > morning I've felt stronger, but still small, waves of nausea.

> >

> > I know several people at work have been sick, so I suppose only

time will tell whether

> I'm

> > coming down with something or my upset stomach is due to the ALA.

> >

>

>

>

> Responding/adding to my own post.

>

> I'm thinking about starting another round this week and instead of

starting on Thursday,

> starting on Friday. I'm hoping to avoid feeling too tired at work

Saturday night or having

> to work with my intestines distressed. If that doesn't work out,

maybe I'll start the next

> round on Saturday, since I usually feel great the first day. The

details don't really matter

> to the list, I've just got to figure out a way to work around a

nontraditional work schedule,

> and sleeping arrangements (I'm chelating my 2 kids at the same time).

>

> After 9 rounds, I feel like my bowel habits are changed, or sluggish

when on round. I'm

> thinking about taking some extra Magnesium when on round. Right now

I'm taking 200

> mg Mg Citrate, 4x/day. The other problem I've had is painful gas &

cramping/bloating in

> my intestines. It's not every round, but if it happens, Day 3 on

round is the worst. Any

> suggestions for easing this discomfort? I suppose yeast is a

possibility? I've been taking 2

> Candex at the midnight dose, and doubling the probiotics, when on

round.

>

> On this last round, my first with ALA, I woke up on Day 2 with a

sore neck. It was as if I

> slept in an awkward position and my neck muscles were sore. It

continued to get worse

> during the round with muscle spasms so strong my sleep was

disrupted. Exedrin eased

> the pain. The neck pain was better by the third day off round.

However, I then developed

> what essentially feels like the same thing, only along the side of

my torso, by the fourth

> day off round. I cannot think of anything I may have done to pull a

muscle. I read the

> thread on " flank pain--kidneys " with interest, and of course I'm

wondering if it's a side

> effect of the round. I can't bend down to pick up anything without

whincing. Has anyone

> else experienced painful muscle spasms as a side effect?

>

> The second day off round I was not only tired, but my brain was

dull, dull, dull.

>

> Since we are doing 3 day rounds--8 doses, 8 doses, 7 doses--if I

wanted to try to leave

> the ALA out of the last few rounds, how many would you recommend?

The last 2 doses?

> The last 3? Alternatively, I could reduce the dose of ALA if I find

I experience the same

> discomforts.

>

> Lastly, I haven't had any chest pain in almost 2 weeks. I hope it

is the slippery elm tea

> which is doing the trick and the chest pain was indeed esophageal in

origin. I'd like to

> drop the taurine I'm taking and see how it goes. I have read

warnings (Andy's book and

> other references) about taking taurine when you do not need it, and

since I haven't tested

> for amino acid levels, I don't really know whether I need it or not.

>

> Thanks for listening and any comments,

>

> in Illinois

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Yeast is what I'm thinking too. Are you on a candida diet?

> If not, a reduced sugar/yeast diet might make a difference

> over time.

No, not a strict candida diet. But, I try not to go overboard on too much

bread, pasta, or

sweets.

>

> Did you start that amount of Mg Citrate all at once, or did you

> increase it gradually?

I've been taking 200 mg of Mg 4x/day since November. I did increase to 300 mg

4x/day

all at once. It was easy to divide a tablet and add it to the pill box to make

it 300.

>

> The nausea happened after the round, right? Not during?

> Did it go away after that day?

3rd day on round and for several days after. My appetite is still not normal,

and even

today I felt a little queasy after lunch. Some people at work have been sick,

so it's possible

I'm fighting off something too. Time will tell?

>

> The only muscular issue I've had during rounds is the flank pain.

> Maybe some aches, but my significant aches happen after ending a

> round.

>

> I wonder if you ramped up the Mg quickly and your body is confused

> about how to deal with it, having trouble finding a balance between

> muscle contraction and relaxation. Maybe a long shot.

Did the pain you felt feel just like a pulled muscle?

>

> Sounds like redistribution. I would reduce the ALA dose and see

> if that makes a difference.

I'm thinking I'll try one more round at 25 mg ALA. The side effects were not

intolerable.

And I am curious to see how I feel at that dose again. But believe me, if I'm

too

uncomfortable, I'll drop the dose for sure.

>

> Did the water retention go away when you dropped the DGL?

> Sorry if I missed this.

>

No, it has not. I still feel puffy and my pants feel tight. I'll report

if dropping the

taurine makes a difference.

in Illinois

[Guest guest]

>

>

> ,

>

> Nausea is a stress symptom (for me). It may be that the dose (of ALA)

> is a bit too high.

If this next round is too uncomfortable, I'll drop the dose.

>

> I know that most people would say that the gas pain and bloating is

> 'yeast'. This is how I think about it.

, I don't know about your theory. The yeast/bacteria/digestion stuff is

still a

mystery/guesswork to me. It seems you don't believe yeast is as much of a wide

spread

problem with chelation as others do?

in Illinois

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

You mentioned that you are pretty strict with your diet in regards to

yeast and sweets? I can tell you that until I completely eliminated

sugar and yeast etc out of my diet, candida remained and thrived just

fine on the little that I was still having. I didn't realise that,

until I went off sugar and yeast (gluten/wheat too) completely.

Didn't notice anything different for a few days and then I got a

MASSIVE die off effect just from doing that, which lasted 3 weeks.

I had underestimated the small bits creeping into my diet and how

much it allowed the candida to stay at high levels.

The improvement after going through the awful die off for three weeks

was marked. I don't have that improvement any longer, due to other

things that have occured that have made me toxic all over again.

At any rate, just to let you know that it is worth being that strict

believe me.

.

>

>

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > Nausea is a stress symptom (for me). It may be that the dose (of

ALA)

> > is a bit too high.

>

>

> If this next round is too uncomfortable, I'll drop the dose.

>

>

> >

> > I know that most people would say that the gas pain and bloating

is

> > 'yeast'. This is how I think about it.

>

>

> , I don't know about your theory. The

yeast/bacteria/digestion stuff is still a

> mystery/guesswork to me. It seems you don't believe yeast is as

much of a wide spread

> problem with chelation as others do?

>

> in Illinois

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Yeast is what I'm thinking too. Are you on a candida diet?

> > If not, a reduced sugar/yeast diet might make a difference

> > over time.

>

> No, not a strict candida diet. But, I try not to go overboard on

too much bread, pasta, or

> sweets.

You might try reducing these more. I had terrible problems

with gas/bloating/cramping/diarrhea for years until I eliminated

these (and gluten in my case). The fact that your symptoms are

happening during rounds is also consistent with dysbiosis. Your

immune system may be in good enough shape to re-balance things

somewhat between rounds.

You could consider DMPS at some point, since it does not

contribute to yeast problems.

For me probiotics were just money down the drain until I was

on a candida diet.

> >

> > Did you start that amount of Mg Citrate all at once, or did you

> > increase it gradually?

>

> I've been taking 200 mg of Mg 4x/day since November. I did increase

to 300 mg 4x/day

> all at once. It was easy to divide a tablet and add it to the pill

box to make it 300.

If the Mg citrate had any degree of laxative effect, and your gut

was bloated and gassy during a round...well, the laxative effect

might make things more painful and crampy? Just a thought.

> >

> > The nausea happened after the round, right? Not during?

> > Did it go away after that day?

>

> 3rd day on round and for several days after. My appetite is still

not normal, and even

> today I felt a little queasy after lunch. Some people at work have

been sick, so it's possible

> I'm fighting off something too. Time will tell?

Nausea could also be related to dysbiosis. Of course, I'm

more wondering about ALA causing acid problems. Some acid

symptoms might be masked by the slippery elm...I still think

you should reduce the ALA, just to be safe.

> >

> > The only muscular issue I've had during rounds is the flank pain.

> > Maybe some aches, but my significant aches happen after ending a

> > round.

> >

> > I wonder if you ramped up the Mg quickly and your body is confused

> > about how to deal with it, having trouble finding a balance between

> > muscle contraction and relaxation. Maybe a long shot.

>

>

> Did the pain you felt feel just like a pulled muscle?

I really believed my flank pain was kidney-related. It did not

feel muscular at the time, nor thinking back on it. But I can

believe that some of those small deep muscles in the back could

cause odd pains. I guess I'm " trying on " the explanation that

Andy gave about this being a muscular symptom.

The mild aches I get feel like sore muscles, not pulls.

> >

> > Sounds like redistribution. I would reduce the ALA dose and see

> > if that makes a difference.

>

>

> I'm thinking I'll try one more round at 25 mg ALA. The side effects

were not intolerable.

> And I am curious to see how I feel at that dose again. But believe

me, if I'm too

> uncomfortable, I'll drop the dose for sure.

> >

> > Did the water retention go away when you dropped the DGL?

> > Sorry if I missed this.

> >

I think this could all be explained by adrenal fatigue - the

reflux, the bloating and other digestive issues, dysbiosis,

possibly even the muscle pains/spasms. Chelation is stressful

and could easily drop you a notch or two on the adrenal fatigue

scale. At some point on that scale you get elevated cortisol

levels. Symptoms can include excess acid production, bloating

(especially after meals), weight gain around the middle, sleep

problems, fatigue, etc.

It would be a good idea to get tested. Whatever the stage of

adrenal fatigue, you should maintain good blood sugar control,

get some extra sleep, and try to reduce stress. An adaptogen

like phos serine or siberian ginseng can help.

--

> No, it has not. I still feel puffy and my pants feel tight.

I'll report if dropping the

> taurine makes a difference.

>

>

> in Illinois

[Guest guest]

>

> , I don't know about your theory. The yeast/bacteria/digestion

stuff is still a

> mystery/guesswork to me. It seems you don't believe yeast is as

much of a wide spread

> problem with chelation as others do?

>

I like the word 'dysbiosis'. I have no doubt that many people do have

problems with yeast. I did before I changed my diet, but my yeast

problems stopped when I eliminated gluten, dairy, legumes, and sugar.

I am totally NOT an expert on this topic. I found a post last night

written by someone who is an expert.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/message/37873

Reading this post (1) probably doesn't apply to us because we are

using very low quantities of DMSA, (2) doesn't apply to us because we

are using the proper protocol, so (3) is the only one that could

apply, and if I'm reading this right (3) says that if there are

problems the dose needs to be lowered (or maybe more antioxidants, etc

are needed. Not sure exactly what he means by etc).

J

> in Illinois

>

[Guest guest]

,

I forgot to mention that activated charcoal would be

helpful for the bloating/gas. Cheap and effective.

You need to take it away from food and supplements.

--

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

>

> I forgot to mention that activated charcoal would be

> helpful for the bloating/gas. Cheap and effective.

> You need to take it away from food and supplements.

>

> --

>

I can't imagine being able to take activated charcoal when on round, taking a

chelator

every 3 hours. If it's possible, I'm also positive I'm not organized enough to

juggle the

timing.

in Illinois

[Guest guest]

Thanks , I spent some time yesterday on www.Onibasu.com reading archived

posts at

A-M on yeast.

I think I'll feel better once I come up with a plan, or at least something to

try and see if it

helps.

in Ilinois

[Guest guest]

> >

> > ,

> >

> > I forgot to mention that activated charcoal would be

> > helpful for the bloating/gas. Cheap and effective.

> > You need to take it away from food and supplements.

> >

> > --

> >

>

>

> I can't imagine being able to take activated charcoal when on round,

taking a chelator

> every 3 hours. If it's possible, I'm also positive I'm not

organized enough to juggle the

> timing.

>

> in Illinois

Yep, timing is a pain - guess I've gotten used to it. Sigh.

I take charcoal every day, about 1.5 hr after a chelator dose

during rounds, along with psyllium. Works well.

While searching other topics on onibasu, I noticed

some other reports of increased gas while using DMSA.

--

[Guest guest]

Just a quick update. I finished my second round with ALA and it was more

comfortable

than the first round. I was more aggressive with my yeast protocol (Mostly

Candex, & a

couple doses of GSE + No Fenol, generous amounts of probiotics), and that may

have

made a difference?

I did experience the clenching muscle pain (flank pain?) again this round,

although not as

painful as the first round. I think if I would've taken some pain meds

(aspirin), I would've

felt better. I took some xt Mg Citrate during the nighttime doses.

Still no return of the chest pain. ===knock on wood===

The kids are doing great. (Whew!)

in Illinois