Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 In a message dated 9/18/00 1:14:54 PM Central Daylight Time, ksagen@... writes: << Subj: re: Vitamins (was MSM) Date: 9/18/00 1:14:54 PM Central Daylight Time From: ksagen@... (Kari Sagen) Reply-to: graves_supportegroups To: graves_supportegroups ('graves_supportegroups') I seem to remember a discussion here (?) that people with GD should stay away from zinc and echinacea. Or was it just echinacea? At any rate, I was on zinc for awhile, and it started making me feel really awful again. I just take some calcium (been drinking a lot of lactose free milk and oj lately, too....), and a B-Complete vitamin from time to time, and I'm feeling ok. My eyes are *still* so dry though! Bleah. I wonder if E would help with that? Kari >> Kari, I took echinacea right before I had the bad spell..what does it do?? thanks Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Kari, We are suppose to avoid GARLIC? I use a lot of fresh garlic when I cook...do you know why? I knew about the echinacea as it is listed on the echinacea tea...I still don't understand this one as it is suppose to boost our immune systems, yet those with a sick immune system through autoimmune diseases are not to take it...go figure. Jody _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 I'm not sure. I'd have to look through the archives. But I remember reading something somewhere that said it was something to avoid, if you have Graves. I could be wrong!! But I do know zinc makes me feel sicker. And we're supposed to avoid Garlic, too?? There's a whole list of things. I'll have to do some research. Kari >>Kari, I took echinacea right before I had the bad spell..what does it do?? thanks Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 We're supposed to avoid garlic? In what form and how much? Also, I should know this already but which fish should we avoid? Or maybe I'll ask this: are salmon and tuna OK? Thanks to whoever's able to answer, Fay Young ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > We're supposed to avoid garlic? In what form and how much? Also, I should > know this already but which fish should we avoid? Or maybe I'll ask this: > are salmon and tuna OK? > > Thanks to whoever's able to answer, > Fay Young Garlic is probably okay for those who aren't too hyper. I was the one who had problems with it. I'm fine now. I subscribe to the belief that there is no such thing as to much garlic. i discovered the hard way there is Garlic has trace amounts of iodine, so tons of garlic on top of any other source of iodine can be tricky. i had to eliminate ALL traces of iodine for a while, then slowly start adding stuff back in. I still can't eat large quantities of garlic with out triggering tachy attacks, but for the most part I do okay. I think salmon and tuna are okay, it is shellfish (shrimp, etc) that I've heard one whould avoid as much as possilbe while still hyper. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 My doc told me to avoid seafood, but only when I had the hives I got from Tapazol. I eat tuna all the time, with no troubles. But I don't know....maybe it's bad! Maybe it's the iodine in seafood. I'm assuming. And salt with iodine in it is, I think, a no no. Sorry, these posts are just my random thoughts and recollections from when I first started posting here after I was diagnosed. You should definitely not avoid something just becuase I have a bad memory. I do remember, though, that someone once mentioned garlic (raw) as being not so good for GD sufferers. I know there are posts in the archives that mention which vitamins/food we should probably avoid. But none of it's written in stone, really. I mean, we're supposed to avoid alcohol, but I like to have a glass of wine with dinner, and I do. I don't think I feel any worse for it. Kari Re: re: echinacea We're supposed to avoid garlic? In what form and how much? Also, I should know this already but which fish should we avoid? Or maybe I'll ask this: are salmon and tuna OK? Thanks to whoever's able to answer, Fay Young ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 I still drink 3/4 cups of coffee a day...it is one thing I refused to give up. But I did cut way way way back. Jody _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 How come no beta blockers this time around? Jody _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Deb, Garlic capsules help with sinus problems? Both hubby and I are having so many problems with sinus's and nothing seems to work. I think mine is from allergies as the leaves are turning now and my eyes are so dry I would have to put a bottle of drops in each eye and tape them shut for the drops to work. But this is the first time I have heard about garlic for sinus problems Jody _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Kari, Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. e Re: re: echinacea > > > > We're supposed to avoid garlic? In what form and how much? Also, I should > know this already but which fish should we avoid? Or maybe I'll ask this: > are salmon and tuna OK? > > Thanks to whoever's able to answer, > Fay Young > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Is there some medical explanation for being falling down drunk now? I am one of those people who has never been able to tolerate much liquor anyway. I was thinking about having a drink this weekend when I go out of town for work. Does alcohol always trigger tachycardia? Is that some kind of heart problem? e Re: re: echinacea > > > > Kari, > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > e > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > C > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > Kari, > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > e In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not enough alcohol content to bother me much. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Isn't Tachycardia basically rapid heartbeat? Or is it worse? kari Re: re: echinacea Is there some medical explanation for being falling down drunk now? I am one of those people who has never been able to tolerate much liquor anyway. I was thinking about having a drink this weekend when I go out of town for work. Does alcohol always trigger tachycardia? Is that some kind of heart problem? e Re: re: echinacea > > > > Kari, > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > e > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > C > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Kari, It looks like you have opened up a whole can of worms here by mentioned all the things we should avoid! e Re: re: echinacea > > > > > > > > > Kari, > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > > > e > > > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > > > C > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 I know!!! I'll have to jaunt back into the archives and find all those lists....dang! I remember, though, asking all these same questions, last year when I first joined, and being surprised (and bummed) by the things we should try to avoid. Caffeine, however, is one thing I *know* we should avoid. And I don't miss it at all. Kari Re: re: echinacea Kari, It looks like you have opened up a whole can of worms here by mentioned all the things we should avoid! e Re: re: echinacea > > > > > > > > > Kari, > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > > > e > > > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > > > C > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Kari, Since I have gone hypo (after RAI) caffeine is the only thing that keeps me going. I don't think it is dangerous to be now that I am hypo and my heart is beating very very slow , as opposed to pounding out of my chest when I was hyper. e Re: re: echinacea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kari, > > > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > > > > > e > > > > > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > > > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > > > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > > > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and > limit > > > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > > > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. > Not > > > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > > > > > C > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > > intended to replace expert medical care. > > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > > > Is there some medical explanation for being falling down drunk now? I am > one of those people who has never been able to tolerate much liquor anyway. > I was thinking about having a drink this weekend when I go out of town for > work. Does alcohol always trigger tachycardia? Is that some kind of heart > problem? > > e The only thing I can think of in my case is the PTU is involved. Maybe affecting my liver so I can't process it the way I used to. I find if I eat something, having a glass of wine with dinner is not a problem, as long as i keep it to a glass of wine. I do remember when I was in remission, I didn't have quite to problems as when i am hyper and on the meds. Alcohol triggers tachycardia in me, it may act different for different folks. Some lucky ones may be able to have alcohol with no problems. it is always best to start with a small amount to see how one reacts to it. Also, having food in ones system helps alot (this is good advice for folks without graves. Slows the uptake of the alcohol). Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > > Isn't Tachycardia basically rapid heartbeat? Or is it worse? > > kari It is my understanding that it is very rapid heartbeating. I usually go from normal to very rapid in a very short amount of time after something triggers it (and as I am not on beta blockers this time around I have to try meditation to get the rate down). For me it is also worse, as I also experience a bit of a panic attack when it hits at night (usually about bed time and I am trying to get to sleep), I guess from subconsiously remembering when I was untreated. Not to mention the occasional skipped beats it throws in for good measure (jeeze, how DID I survive those months of no treatment!?). Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > > Isn't Tachycardia basically rapid heartbeat? Or is it worse? > > kari It is my understanding that it is very rapid heartbeating. I usually go from normal to very rapid in a very short amount of time after something triggers it (and as I am not on beta blockers this time around I have to try meditation to get the rate down). For me it is also worse, as I also experience a bit of a panic attack when it hits at night (usually about bed time and I am trying to get to sleep), I guess from subconsiously remembering when I was untreated. Not to mention the occasional skipped beats it throws in for good measure (jeeze, how DID I survive those months of no treatment!?). Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Well, according to one poster last year, here's some things we *should* eat!: " broccoli, cauliflower, kale, parsnips, pears, peaches -- these may help calm the thyroid. Also avoid all stimulants, like caffeine and nicotine. " Not sure if that's for hyper or hypo. But it can't hurt either, can it. Looove broccoli! Kari Re: re: echinacea Kari, It looks like you have opened up a whole can of worms here by mentioned all the things we should avoid! e Re: re: echinacea > > > > > > > > > Kari, > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > > > e > > > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > > > C > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Well, according to one poster last year, here's some things we *should* eat!: " broccoli, cauliflower, kale, parsnips, pears, peaches -- these may help calm the thyroid. Also avoid all stimulants, like caffeine and nicotine. " Not sure if that's for hyper or hypo. But it can't hurt either, can it. Looove broccoli! Kari Re: re: echinacea Kari, It looks like you have opened up a whole can of worms here by mentioned all the things we should avoid! e Re: re: echinacea > > > > > > > > > Kari, > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > > > e > > > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > > > C > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 My recommendation is to go into this list at and do a search for 'food' or 'vitamins'. There's lots of good info, on those posts. So before I go off saying things that I may not remember all the way...this list has the archive of every question asked about food and vitamins... Kari Re: re: echinacea Kari, It looks like you have opened up a whole can of worms here by mentioned all the things we should avoid! e Re: re: echinacea > > > > > > > > > Kari, > > > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but is there some reason why people with thyroid > > > problems should avoid alcohol? I have never heard that. > > > > > > e > > > > In my case, alcohol can trigger tachycardia. I also to be able to > > handle alcohol fairly well, now you just wave the bottle in front of me > > and I get falling down drunk. Caffeine is another thing one should be > > careful around. I can't quite give up my coffee habit, but I try and limit > > myself to 1/2 cup coffee a day and limit caffeine to before 9am. Alcohol > > is rare in our house now. I've gotten to really like Sharps near beer. Not > > enough alcohol content to bother me much. > > > > C > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not > intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- > The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. > Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not intended to replace expert medical care. Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments. ---------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 , What are Nettles? Jody _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Debbie, You might want to think twice about the echinacea. It's an immune system stimulant and in Graves' your immune system is already stimulated. On the bottle, there should be a caution about autoimmune diseases. You can strengthen or modulate your immune system, but you don't want to stimulate it too much. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 Yes, , nettles are great. Dr. Weil recommends nettles and Quercetin. I take both for my fall allergies and they really help. I was a little leery of moving to the mountains since I'm allergic to trees, but between the nettles, quercetin and my Singulair, I haven't noticed a thing. Amazing since I'm allergic to my 3 dogs. Off topic...Redhen, where can I get those ice clogs you mention in your article? I've already had deer in the yard and I can see myself getting dragged over ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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