Re: what is?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/7/2004 1:26:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cris@... writes:

> who is so far willing to give me armour, and to bring my TSH down to a more

> reasonable level, this is what I am working with. I am doing so much better

> - even just emotionally

I know, Chris. And I'm truly supporting you. I'll try to skip over the

parts about the TSH.

Cindi

[Guest guest]

> there are some other things here too - anything I should be

>looking for?

Yes, a new doc.

Actually, LOL, I am slightly kidding, but I am not impressed by a

doc who orders all sorts of labs and fails to do the FREE T3!!!

But, you do have an antibodies test!! That's the Thyroglobin and

peroxidase!!

And, a TSH of 2.21 is not good if you go by what the TSH is of those

of us who are on optimal doses of Armour. Mine, for example, is .009.

And the Estradiol looks high--I had to change labs this year and I

got a high reading like that, too, but it made no sense when the

former lab showed me around 42. Where's a progestone test?

Your Ferritin is fabulous and I am jealous!! hehehe

And with these labs, how do you feel symptom-wise?

Janie

> I picked up my bloodwork results - I see NO antibodies tests or

FreeT3.....

>

> What is Thyroglobulin ab ?

> thyroid peroxidase AB ?

>

> they list TSH as normal .4-5.50 I was 2.21

> my T4 Free is 1.0 with normal .8-1.8

> DHEA Sulfate 44 normal 39-183

> FSH 32.1 postmenopausal 23.0-116.3

> Estradiol 240 not sure I understand this one -

> Thyroglobulin AB Less than 2.0 normal .0-2.0

> Thyroid Peroxidase AB Less than 2.0 normal .0-2.0

> Cortisol, Total Serum 14.6 AM 4.0-22.0

> Ferritin 60 normal 10-232

[Guest guest]

oh!! ok!! LOL Thanks!!!!!

so - the only thing I didn't get was my freeT3 -

I feel better about this now - and this is good, for me, that they are normal!

with past symptoms, I didn't expect them to be normal!!

Cris

what is?

I picked up my bloodwork results - I see NO antibodies tests or FreeT3.....

What is Thyroglobulin ab ?

thyroid peroxidase AB ?

they list TSH as normal .4-5.50 I was 2.21

my T4 Free is 1.0 with normal .8-1.8

DHEA Sulfate 44 normal 39-183

FSH 32.1 postmenopausal 23.0-116.3

Estradiol 240 not sure I understand this one -

Thyroglobulin AB Less than 2.0 normal .0-2.0

Thyroid Peroxidase AB Less than 2.0 normal .0-2.0

Cortisol, Total Serum 14.6 AM 4.0-22.0

Ferritin 60 normal 10-232

there are some other things here too - anything I should be looking for?

Cris

[Guest guest]

I increased by 1/2 grain. that takes me to a total of 1 1/2 grain.

Thanks!

I'm curious about my adrenal's -

what about taking dhea?

Thx!!

Cris

Re: what is?

In a message dated 7/7/2004 10:24:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,

cris@... writes:

> they list TSH as normal .4-5.50 I was 2.21

> my T4 Free is 1.0 with normal .8-1.8

> DHEA Sulfate 44 normal 39-183

>

low DHEA can indicate adrenal fatigue.

looks like you need more thyroid hormone according to TSH and Free T4....but

don't go by these...go by your symptoms.

Cindi

[Guest guest]

LOL

well - I do fully understand the not working with the TSH - but - with a new

(and it was soooo hard fo find this one) doctor - who is so far willing to give

me armour, and to bring my TSH down to a more reasonable level, this is what I

am working with. I am doing so much better - even just emotionally - then with

the last doctor, it is good. I know that this doctor will not give me enough

armour to get me symptom free, but I will take what I can get from her - with my

insurance paying for the armour.

When I go back the next time, I plan on seeing how my symptoms are doing (I'm

still too new to armour and knowing more to be symptom free), and to present

them to her, with the information about treating symptoms and that sometimes,

that pushes the TSH lower than 1.0 - and I'll see what she says. If she says no,

I order it myself -

Cris

Re: Re: what is?

In a message dated 7/7/2004 11:52:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,

cris@... writes:

> (please don't yell at me for working with her with my TSH level!! LOL - )

>

>

LOL. I was just getting ready to blast off a post....I couldn't stand

reading any more. But I will not be silenced forever. And when you

get

tired of having symptoms, you'll be ready to say the heck with what my TSH

is....I'm still hypo...and I need more Armour! There...i feel better now.

Hugs,

Cindi

[Guest guest]

cris wrote:

She's willing to take me to under 2.0 - I will then self treat, I suppose. I

will ask her to please treat me to a TSH of closer to 1.0. OR - if I get a

freeT3 level - to get it higher in it's range. (please don't yell at me for

working with her with my TSH level!! LOL - )

---------------------------------------

I had a female doctor last fall who I thought was great at first because she

wanted TSH below 1.5, but not under 0.5. Unfortunately to get by free t4 in

range the TSH had to be below 0.5 and she refused and would decrease my dose

based on TSH, even thought the FT4 was low in range. TSH was the most

important. I finally got sick of increasing 1 month just to decrease the

following month. I was on a roller coaster with symptoms disappearing and

appearing based on dose. I finally got sick of it and looked for a doctor wgo

cared about my symptoms and the free levels, not the TSH. You'll probably have

to dump the doctor eventually just as I did, unless you can convince her TSH

doesn't matter. I wish you mch luck in doin this. I couldn't.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Thanks! I'll need luck, I'm sure!

the list of drs here who are willing to treat with armour is very very limited -

so I'm not even sure who I would be able to change to -

but it won't surprise me in the least -

Cris

Re: Re: what is?

cris wrote:

She's willing to take me to under 2.0 - I will then self treat, I suppose. I

will ask her to please treat me to a TSH of closer to 1.0. OR - if I get a

freeT3 level - to get it higher in it's range. (please don't yell at me for

working with her with my TSH level!! LOL - )

---------------------------------------

I had a female doctor last fall who I thought was great at first because she

wanted TSH below 1.5, but not under 0.5. Unfortunately to get by free t4 in

range the TSH had to be below 0.5 and she refused and would decrease my dose

based on TSH, even thought the FT4 was low in range. TSH was the most

important. I finally got sick of increasing 1 month just to decrease the

following month. I was on a roller coaster with symptoms disappearing and

appearing based on dose. I finally got sick of it and looked for a doctor wgo

cared about my symptoms and the free levels, not the TSH. You'll probably have

to dump the doctor eventually just as I did, unless you can convince her TSH

doesn't matter. I wish you mch luck in doin this. I couldn't.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

There is no Free T3 listed here, but it is usually called Triiodothyronine,

Free on lab sheets. You DO have antibodies tests for both major thyroid

antibodies. The thyroglobulin antibody and the antiTPO are right here on

your message! Yours are below 2,i.e., no antibody activity. Do you have

RBCs or WBCs on your labs----red blood cells and white blood cells with

differentials,i.e., MCV, Platelets, etc....? I see estrogen, the main one

made, estradiol, but I don't see a lab range for comparison.

what is?

> I picked up my bloodwork results - I see NO antibodies tests or

FreeT3.....

>

> What is Thyroglobulin ab ?

> thyroid peroxidase AB ?

>

> they list TSH as normal .4-5.50 I was 2.21

> my T4 Free is 1.0 with normal .8-1.8

> DHEA Sulfate 44 normal 39-183

> FSH 32.1 postmenopausal 23.0-116.3

> Estradiol 240 not sure I understand this one -

> Thyroglobulin AB Less than 2.0 normal .0-2.0

> Thyroid Peroxidase AB Less than 2.0 normal .0-2.0

> Cortisol, Total Serum 14.6 AM 4.0-22.0

> Ferritin 60 normal 10-232

>

> there are some other things here too - anything I should be looking for?

>

> Cris

[Guest guest]

My understanding is that after a hysterectomy you don't need

progesterone. If I remember the progesterone is the one that causes

the uterus to shed the lining that has built up. With no uterus

progesterone isn't needed.

Also I remember hearing that if you don't have a cervix you don't

need a pap smear but there are millions of women who still get one

because their Drs haven't told them they don't one.

Louise

> not premerin - it's estrogen only.

> I had a hysterectomy about ....14 years ago. but have an ovary.

about 5-8 years ago, I started on a low dose estrogen because the one

ovary didn't always function. It was a lower dose than used for

estrogen replacement. About a year ago, it was increased - still

fairly low, but enough to take the edge off of the hot flashes.

> I've now cut the dose back to the very minumum dose, and I've

started on progesterone cream - I'm planning on then stopping the

estrogen. But I didn't want to just stop it all at once. I'm not sure

how long to give the progesterone cream to work - and to take this

low dose, before quitting the estrogen though.

> I'm just using the cream from walmart that you - or someone

suggested. And - not sure if I'm using enough or not! LOL I'm not

measuring it. I should be -

> How much should I be putting on? and what, 2X/day?

> Cris

[Guest guest]

> My understanding is that after a hysterectomy you don't need

> progesterone. If I remember the progesterone is the one that causes

> the uterus to shed the lining that has built up. With no uterus

> progesterone isn't needed.

> Also I remember hearing that if you don't have a cervix you don't

> need a pap smear but there are millions of women who still get one

> because their Drs haven't told them they don't one.

>

> Louise

~~~~~~~~~~

Yikes---I suggest you get on the natural HRT boards to find out the

truth.....progesterone is definitely needed as the body still

produces estrogen!! and it has to be balanced......sue

[Guest guest]

Yep, we're talking about Estrogen Dominance here. This is something a lot

of doctors don't seem to understand. They seem to think that it's only

necessary for the baby factory, and that is a major thing, BUT progesterone

even has the ability to turn itself into estrogen or other substances, as

needed!

Re: what is?

>

> > My understanding is that after a hysterectomy you don't need

> > progesterone. If I remember the progesterone is the one that causes

> > the uterus to shed the lining that has built up. With no uterus

> > progesterone isn't needed.

> > Also I remember hearing that if you don't have a cervix you don't

> > need a pap smear but there are millions of women who still get one

> > because their Drs haven't told them they don't one.

> >

> > Louise

> ~~~~~~~~~~

> Yikes---I suggest you get on the natural HRT boards to find out the

> truth.....progesterone is definitely needed as the body still

> produces estrogen!! and it has to be balanced......sue

[Guest guest]

This is proof that the adrenal glands DO pick up the pace for the estrogen

after menopause, unless you are taking estrogen right now. If you are

taking progesterone, some of it can be converted to estrogen (progesterone

IS amazing!). This is why it is SOOOO dangerous for a doctor to put a woman

on estrogen. In so many cases, it just isn't needed. Your red blood cell

counts look great. If they were messed up, it would indicate anemia of some

sort. Looks like you are not anemic.

Re: what is?

> I just re-looked at my papers - no freeT3 that I can find.

> there is a comp(lete) metabolic panel - that is things like sodium,

potatssium -

> my lipid panel -

> Hemogram W/O platelet ct wbc 5.0 out of 3.8-10.8

> RBC 4.13 out of

3.80-5.10

> Hemoglobin 13.1 out of 11.7-15.5

> Hematocrit 37.9

35.0-45.0

> MCV 91.7

80.0-100.0

> MCH 31.8

27.0-33.0

> MCHC 34.6

32.0-36.0

> RDW 12.4

10-232

> (what is that one? )

>

> Homocysteine, CVD 6.5 <10.4

>

> The Estradio said 240

> Follicular <165

> Mid-cycle Peak 146-526

> Luteal <196

> Postmenopausal <32

> I am postmenopausal....so this made no sense to me

>

> What are some of these? and what else did she miss running??

> Thx

> Cris

[Guest guest]

> This is proof that the adrenal glands DO pick up the pace for the

estrogen

> after menopause, unless you are taking estrogen right now. If you

are

> taking progesterone, some of it can be converted to estrogen

(progesterone

> IS amazing!). This is why it is SOOOO dangerous for a doctor to

put a woman

> on estrogen. In so many cases, it just isn't needed. Your red

blood cell

> counts look great. If they were messed up, it would indicate

anemia of some

> sort. Looks like you are not anemic.

>

>

I have NEVEr heard that progesterone can turn into estrogen...only

that it can oppose available estrogen in the system, therefore making

it usable, when it was not able to be used before.

[Guest guest]

And what is interesting is that after my Dr put me on Levoxyl she

also put me on low dose contreceptives to help with my period. Well a

few weeks later I got severe depression. She kept insisting it was my

thyroid - I kept insisting it was the BC. She wanted me to stay on it

until my thyroid got stabilized (and even prescribed prozac.) Well I

had enough of it and stopped the BC and voila the depression lifted.

I know that I will never take estogen/pregesterone again after going

through that. Someone else at work told me the same thing happened to

them. I did try natural progesterone and felt no different. Everybody

is different and you have to listen to your body.

Louise

> Hi, Louise,

> This is what the doctors believe, thanks to the drug companies.

Doctors believe women need

> estrogen for menopause. Since estrogen can cause uterine cancer,

they've found out that progesterone

> can prevent uterine cancer so they add progesterone. However, when

a woman has no uterus, they

> believe the estrogen is sufficient. No chance of uterine cancer.

>

> But they are not really using progesterone. They are using

progestins.

> And usually Premarin, the horse urine which contains 9 estrogens

when our bodies only produce 3.

> As we get older our hormones decline, actually our progesterone

declines faster than estrogen. And our

> progesterone is only produced when we ovulate. Those of us who are

heavier continue to produce some

> estrogen in our fat cells. Many of our health problems occur due to

estrogen dominance. Too much estrogen

> in relation to our progesterone. And then doctors give us MORE

estrogen and if we have had a hysterectomy

> they don't give us ANY progesterone (or progestins). Most of us

actually only need progesterone! But some

> need a little estrogen too. (Amazingly, I just had my hormones

tested and I need estrogen, testosterone and

> progesterone). And I've been taking the drug companies' HRT for 9

years! As you may be aware as of the

> latest study, I'm putting myself at risk for heart disease, stroke

and cancer by taking this stuff! However,

> I didn't stop because I know my depression gets worse without it.

Talk about a rock and a hard place!

>

> Getting back to estrogen. Estrogen causes a proliferation of cell

growth which can lead to cancer. (Estradiol

> and Estrione are thought to be more of the culprits in this area

because the estriol is so abundant when

> we're pregnant. Estriol tends to be protective against cancer.)

Natural progesterone has been found to be

> protective against cancer growth because it has the opposite effect

on cell growth. Natural progesterone

> also is much increased during pregnancy, in order for the baby to

grow and to inhibit a miscarriage. However,

> there's a warning on progestin medication that it can CAUSE a

miscarriage!

>

> I just wanted everyone to know that we DO need progesterone! It has

many health benefits. (I have e-mails with

> much info, as many of you know that I'm glad to send to anyone

interested.)

> in Va.

>

> My understanding is that after a hysterectomy you don't need

> progesterone. If I remember the progesterone is the one that

causes

> the uterus to shed the lining that has built up. With no uterus

> progesterone isn't needed.

> Also I remember hearing that if you don't have a cervix you don't

> need a pap smear but there are millions of women who still get

one

> because their Drs haven't told them they don't one.

>

> Louise

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/progesterone.cfm

Dr. Lam has great info here including mentioning that progesterone is a

biochemical precursor to estrogen

It can also convert to cortisol.

in Va.

-----

I have NEVEr heard that progesterone can turn into estrogen...only

that it can oppose available estrogen in the system, therefore making

it usable, when it was not able to be used before.

[Guest guest]

That's the amazing thing about it. It DOES oppose it, but can also do

chemical reactions necessary to transform itself into estrogen.

Re: what is?

>

> > This is proof that the adrenal glands DO pick up the pace for the

> estrogen

> > after menopause, unless you are taking estrogen right now. If you

> are

> > taking progesterone, some of it can be converted to estrogen

> (progesterone

> > IS amazing!). This is why it is SOOOO dangerous for a doctor to

> put a woman

> > on estrogen. In so many cases, it just isn't needed. Your red

> blood cell

> > counts look great. If they were messed up, it would indicate

> anemia of some

> > sort. Looks like you are not anemic.

> >

> >

>

>

> I have NEVEr heard that progesterone can turn into estrogen...only

> that it can oppose available estrogen in the system, therefore making

> it usable, when it was not able to be used before.

[Guest guest]

my gyny's have based the treatment of estrogen soley on the fact that I had the

hysterectomy and my remaining ovary isn't functioning anymore. And I was getting

hot flashes and major night sweats.

now - recently, I had that bloodwork done by my pcp - but she didnt' test the

testosterone or progesterone -

I've had symptoms of estrogen dominance forever and ever -

Cris

Re: Re: what is?

Has your doctor tested your levels of estradiol, progesterone and testosterone?

Do you have any symptoms of estrogen dominance?

in Va.

my dr. agrees with you - no progesterone - but - from what I'm hearing,

progesterone will convert to estrogen if needed, and you can still be estrogen

dominant after a hysterectomy - and with the fears of synthetic estrogen.... but

that is why I'm not on the premerin - dr. says that I don't need the

progesterone.

and yes - I get that pap - I've asked - they claim there are some cells that

can be there that they analyze. Not necessary yearly though -

certainly more confusion!!

Cris

[Guest guest]

I was on my .625 mg of menest (estratab) at the time of this bloodwork.

I have since cut the pill in half and started on progesterone cream. (from

walmart) (I've heard pros and con's of the walmart brand) -

I'm going to stop the estrogen - probably in another week. I'm taking it slowly.

didn't want to totally throw my body into shock from stopping it. The dose now,

I know, is low - as when I was just on that dose, it wasn't easy to get that

small of a dosage pill.

so - what does this mean now?

Cris

Re: what is?

> I just re-looked at my papers - no freeT3 that I can find.

> there is a comp(lete) metabolic panel - that is things like sodium,

potatssium -

> my lipid panel -

> Hemogram W/O platelet ct wbc 5.0 out of 3.8-10.8

> RBC 4.13 out of

3.80-5.10

> Hemoglobin 13.1 out of 11.7-15.5

> Hematocrit 37.9

35.0-45.0

> MCV 91.7

80.0-100.0

> MCH 31.8

27.0-33.0

> MCHC 34.6

32.0-36.0

> RDW 12.4

10-232

> (what is that one? )

>

> Homocysteine, CVD 6.5 <10.4

>

> The Estradio said 240

> Follicular <165

> Mid-cycle Peak 146-526

> Luteal <196

> Postmenopausal <32

> I am postmenopausal....so this made no sense to me

>

> What are some of these? and what else did she miss running??

> Thx

> Cris

[Guest guest]

Hi, Cris,

You are smart to slowly diminish the estrogen. I don't know what to tell you.

See how you feel. It'll take some time.

in Va.

I was on my .625 mg of menest (estratab) at the time of this bloodwork.

I have since cut the pill in half and started on progesterone cream. (from

walmart) (I've heard pros and con's of the walmart brand) -

I'm going to stop the estrogen - probably in another week. I'm taking it

slowly. didn't want to totally throw my body into shock from stopping it. The

dose now, I know, is low - as when I was just on that dose, it wasn't easy to

get that small of a dosage pill.

so - what does this mean now?

Cris

[Guest guest]

I'm wondering if my progesterone was ever tested - I might have old bloodwork

from my old gyny somewhere - hmmmm -

Cris

Re: Re: what is?

Cris,

Your doctor doesn't know that you don't need progesterone if she didn't test it!

If you are estrogen dominant, you need it!

in Va.

-----

[Guest guest]

do you know? I was discussing this with a friend. I say - eventually, with no

hormonal support, the hot flashes etc. go away. my logic is - my mom was never

on hormones - and she isn't having hot flashes in her 70's!!

my friend thinks that we would always have them.

Obviously, <grin> I am right. how many older women still have hot flashes?

but I wonder, how does this happen? what is the medical reason for it? do you

know?

If I'm not using enough progesterone cream, once I'm off of the estrogen

completely, won't my hot flashes eventually go away on their own?

Cris

Re: what is?

Hi, Cris,

You are smart to slowly diminish the estrogen. I don't know what to tell you.

See how you feel. It'll take some time.

in Va.

I was on my .625 mg of menest (estratab) at the time of this bloodwork.

I have since cut the pill in half and started on progesterone cream. (from

walmart) (I've heard pros and con's of the walmart brand) -

I'm going to stop the estrogen - probably in another week. I'm taking it

slowly. didn't want to totally throw my body into shock from stopping it. The

dose now, I know, is low - as when I was just on that dose, it wasn't easy to

get that small of a dosage pill.

so - what does this mean now?

Cris

[Guest guest]

I don't have time right now as I need to get ready for church but

in The change before the change by Dr Corio she gives a medical

explanation for hot flashes and night sweats. I'll try to post what

she says later.

Louise

> do you know? I was discussing this with a friend. I say -

eventually, with no hormonal support, the hot flashes etc. go away.

my logic is - my mom was never on hormones - and she isn't having hot

flashes in her 70's!!

> my friend thinks that we would always have them.

> Obviously, <grin> I am right. how many older women still have hot

flashes?

> but I wonder, how does this happen? what is the medical reason for

it? do you know?

> If I'm not using enough progesterone cream, once I'm off of the

estrogen completely, won't my hot flashes eventually go away on their

own?

> Cris

]

[Guest guest]

Thank you! I'll watch for it!!!

Cris

Re: what is?

I don't have time right now as I need to get ready for church but

in The change before the change by Dr Corio she gives a medical

explanation for hot flashes and night sweats. I'll try to post what

she says later.

Louise

[Guest guest]

Hi, Cris,

It's probably a matter of balance. No fluctuations any more. Estrogen and

progesterone equally low. I know my mother at 93 would still have hot flushes.

Whether or not the cause was from hormones, I don't know. Maybe her pituitary or

hypothalamus was malfunctioning. But think about it. Are hot flushes the ONLY

detriment of menopause? It's like we go on a diet to lose weight and we are

satisfied when our weight is where we want it. But what about the foods we are

eating? Are we still eating anything harmful to our bodies? Is it Ok as long as

we don't know what it's doing to our bodies?

If we are low in progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, but we're having no

annoying side effects, (I find that hard to imagine), but is everything fine?

You may have problems you just attribute to aging and disregard the hormones.

Memory isn't as good as it used to be. Not as much energy. Need a diuretic for

ankles swelling. Well, estrogen can help the memory, progesterone can take the

place of the diuretic, and testosterone and progesterone can increase energy as

well as the progesterone giving the thyroid a boost.

So to answer your question, your hot flashes might eventually go away on their

own. But if you do really become low in estrogen you could develop vaginal

dryness which can be very annoying.

in Va.

-----

do you know? I was discussing this with a friend. I say - eventually, with no

hormonal support, the hot flashes etc. go away. my logic is - my mom was never

on hormones - and she isn't having hot flashes in her 70's!!

my friend thinks that we would always have them.

Obviously, <grin> I am right. how many older women still have hot flashes?

but I wonder, how does this happen? what is the medical reason for it? do you

know?

If I'm not using enough progesterone cream, once I'm off of the estrogen

completely, won't my hot flashes eventually go away on their own?

Cris