Comments please! I got my labs back!

July 21, 2004

I just got my labs back after taking Armour and hc for 3 weeks. The only

pre-Armour tests I have of any significance is TSH. My PCP only does TT4 and T3

uptake with the TSH ( sigh )

PreArmour TSH-1.5 ( different lab )

3 weeks into Armour ( at 1.25 gr ) TSH-0.62

3 weeks into Armour fT4-1.2 ( ref .8-1.8 )

3 weeks into Armour fT3-4.0 ( ref 2.3-4.2 )

I am now needing 1.5 gr per day to feel great. The bloodwork is interesting. TSH

is already down quite a bit. It's too soon to say much because I am only 3 weeks

on Armour, but thought the TSH drop was interesting.

My adrenals are WORN OUT!!! Like we didn't already know that!!! LOL

Besides that adding pure salt to my diet has decreased my water retention. I am

also LESS thirsty since adding the salt. My God, there were times in the past

where I could not go to bed because no matter how much I drank my mouth was dry.

DHEA-33 ( ref 35-430 ) POOR ADRENALS!!!

Who has experience with supplementing DHEA? Hubby is picking some up on the way

home tonight! :-)

Potassium- 5.1 ( ref 3.6-5.2 ) AHA! That potassium hoarding from weak

adrenals! I am not surprised.

Good news is that I do not have any antithyroid antibodies! Hooray!!! I

celebrated with a huge piece of sea salt laden seaweed! YUM!

Cholesterol was UP from 9 years ago. New cholesterol is 196! Speaks of low

thyroid!

Ferritin-26 ( ref 10-291 ) What do you all think?

More good news: BP sit/stand test today: sit 112/71 HR 74; stand 124/97 HR 78

!!!

2 weeks ago I could not get out of the low 100's on the systolic. Maybe I can

start decreasing my hc? I had just read a paper saying to not take hc past 2 PM

because of the natural cycles. I certainly have needed that every 4 hours no

matter what time it has been! Now I am thinking about starting to mimic natural

cortisol levels better....see how I do.

I have never had a cortisol saliva test. But, with feeling so great from the HC

I can only assume I NEED it. I think that once I can wean off it I will do the

test, see if things are fixed well enough

I just read an article about if the adrenal gland cannot produce cortisol in

response to the high ACTH, then it aberrantly produces estrogen. That creates an

excess of estrogen that then binds thyroid hormone making it unusable.

Furthermore, if you do not have enough thyroid hormone then you cannot use the

cortisol you do have. GEEZ, talk about being stuck! The answer appears to

be....heal the adrenals.

I am wondering if perhaps once my adrenal glands are healed, if they can be,

that perhaps I might not need Armour. Who knows? We'll see.

PLEASE....COMMENTS about DHEA and Ferritin, or anything! :-)

Thanks,

Roxanna

Roxanna V. Knight-Plouff, D.V.M.

W Plouff

North Star German Shepherd Dog Rescue Inc

northstargsdr@...

www.northstargsdr.org

July 21, 2004

Hi Roxanna. I've been taking DHEA via a gel for 1 1/2 years and love

it. Can't say I notice anything, but do appreciate having it. Your

Ferritin is too low. Needs to be around the 60's to be optimal.

Unless you've never been hypothyroid, I never heard of anyone being

able to stop thyroid support once their adrenals were optimal. So

far, it appears that once you need thyroid support, you will need it

your entire life. My two cents worth..... )

Janie

> 3 weeks into Armour ( at 1.25 gr ) TSH-0.62>

> 3 weeks into Armour fT4-1.2 ( ref .8-1.8 )>

> 3 weeks into Armour fT3-4.0 ( ref 2.3-4.2 )

>

> I am now needing 1.5 gr per day to feel great. > DHEA-33 ( ref 35-

430 ) POOR ADRENALS!!!

>

> Ferritin-26 ( ref 10-291 ) What do you all think?

> I am wondering if perhaps once my adrenal glands are healed, if

they can be, that perhaps I might not need Armour. Who knows? We'll

see.

>

> PLEASE....COMMENTS about DHEA and Ferritin, or anything! :-)

> Thanks,

> Roxanna

July 21, 2004

>>I'm still in that honeymoon stage of Armour/hc where I can hardly

believe I can function again with energy and a good mood! =o)

WELCOME to feeling better!! Isn't it great?? And don't hesitate to

continue experimenting with a slightly higher dose than you are on if

you feel comfortable with that.

> How many mgs of DHEA are you using per day?

> Have you considered using pregnenolone instead?

I am on 5 mg. via a gel. I had considered pregnenolone, but was doing

so well with the DHEA that I decided to just stay with it. The DHEA

is with my testosterone.

> From your experience, what sort of iron supplementation should I

> start? Advice on places to purchase?

I found it great to buy FERROUS SULFATE 325 mg, and take it at least

twice a day WITH MEALS. Jamy took 3 a day and that's great, too. My

NP had me on prescription iron, but I found it just as effective and

CHEAPER to do the Ferrous Sulfate. I also tried liquid iron, but a

side effect is blackened teeth, which it did to me. Vegetable based

liquid iron would be a better choice if you go the liquid route.

Janie, romping around the playground with newfound energy, with

Roxanna!!

July 21, 2004

In a message dated 7/21/2004 10:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

tayamni@... writes:

> I already know that.I don't really see the point of going cold turkey to

> see what is going on without thyroid meds. I already know

yea..when i first heard the 12-24 hr. thing...i thought it was ridiculous.

if armour patients are going without armour to take the labs...it sorta negates

everything anyway.

cindi

July 21, 2004

aren'yt you in Colorado? I expect a snow woman in my honor with all that

energy this winter!!!

>

>Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>Subject: Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:48:04 -0000

>

July 21, 2004

Well our summer has been uhm weird. We had highs in the 60's in late

June. Today our high is supposed to be around 90. Tomorrow around 80

and on Friday around 70 with rain!! 70 for a high in late July is

just bizarre!!!!!

Louise - who is loving church!!! Black pants, red shirt and black

tie - nice.

> aren'yt you in Colorado? I expect a snow woman in my honor with all

that

> energy this winter!!!

>

> >From: " loboshe " <usns@r...>

> >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones

> >To: NaturalThyroidHormones

> >Subject: Re: Comments please! I got my

labs back!

> >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:48:04 -0000

> >

>

July 21, 2004

and I bet it is not a snowman you are talking about you naughty girl. LOL

>

>Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>Subject: Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:30:00 -0000

>

July 21, 2004

and I bet it is not a snowman you are talking about you naughty girl. LOL

>

>Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>Subject: Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:30:00 -0000

>

----------

July 21, 2004

I never take my meds prior to my morning blood test, but I would never go a

day to find out if the DR is going to undermedicated me. I need to know my

levels so I can see what I really want to do.

>

>Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones

>To: <NaturalThyroidHormones >

>Subject: Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:14:47 -0400

>

July 22, 2004

I think it was Janie who said she likes taking a test both ways -

right after taking meds and one without. That way she gets a better

idea about her levels.

And sometimes if you have a Dr who goes by the numbers you need to

uhm fudge your numbers some by not taking meds. Yeah that's sad but

sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Louise

> In a message dated 7/21/2004 10:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> tayamni@e... writes:

>

> > I already know that.I don't really see the point of going cold

turkey to

> > see what is going on without thyroid meds. I already know

>

> yea..when i first heard the 12-24 hr. thing...i thought it was

ridiculous.

> if armour patients are going without armour to take the labs...it

sorta negates

> everything anyway.

> cindi

>

July 22, 2004

this is what I'm thinking - my doctor is not going to be willing to get my

numbers low (tsh) or high (free's - if she ever takes them) - so, I feel I will

need to fudge when I get levels taken the next time.

do you suppose - when I feel like I'm crashing - around 3:00 - would be a good

time to be checked? altho - if I'm not taking the armour that day or the day

before anyway, it wouldn't matter, right?

plus - if t4 stays in your system for a long time, that wouldn't be affected by

holding off on the armour. right?

Cris

Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

I think it was Janie who said she likes taking a test both ways -

right after taking meds and one without. That way she gets a better

idea about her levels.

And sometimes if you have a Dr who goes by the numbers you need to

uhm fudge your numbers some by not taking meds. Yeah that's sad but

sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Louise

> In a message dated 7/21/2004 10:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> tayamni@e... writes:

>

> > I already know that.I don't really see the point of going cold

turkey to

> > see what is going on without thyroid meds. I already know

>

> yea..when i first heard the 12-24 hr. thing...i thought it was

ridiculous.

> if armour patients are going without armour to take the labs...it

sorta negates

> everything anyway.

> cindi

>

July 22, 2004

In a message dated 7/22/2004 4:43:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cris@... writes:

> she said no more bloodwork and no more armour for 3 months!!!!

3 months is too long.

cindi

July 22, 2004

that's what I'll shoot for - providing I can get my apt. time then. At this

point, I have to fight to get another apt. - she said no more bloodwork and no

more armour for 3 months!!!! I'm only on 1 1/2 grains!!! so - if I can get her

to concede to it - I'll take what I can get - for now.

thx!

Cris

Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

I think it was Janie who said she likes taking a test both ways -

right after taking meds and one without. That way she gets a better

idea about her levels.

And sometimes if you have a Dr who goes by the numbers you need to

uhm fudge your numbers some by not taking meds. Yeah that's sad but

sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Louise

> In a message dated 7/21/2004 10:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> tayamni@e... writes:

>

> > I already know that.I don't really see the point of going cold

turkey to

> > see what is going on without thyroid meds. I already know

>

> yea..when i first heard the 12-24 hr. thing...i thought it was

ridiculous.

> if armour patients are going without armour to take the labs...it

sorta negates

> everything anyway.

> cindi

>

July 23, 2004

This is the first time I've ever advised this, but the proof is there, as

far as I'm concerned----being as you've only been on Armour for 3 wks, and

your Frees are in the high ranges on both of them, I'm wondering if they

WEREN'T abnormal before. To me, yours is looking like a ferritin problem,

iron problem, and the fact that your DHEA is so low, so I think you're right

on about the adrenals. Because of the fact that you have no antibodies,

it's not going to be that the tests are skewed, so, you could be right, you

may not need Armour because you may not be hypothyroid at this point.

That's not to say that you couldn't become hypo, if the adrenal glands keep

going downhill. Only my opinion. I knew that I was hypo because I was

tested over and over again, so that was obvious, but I knew something wasn't

working, when, after taking .125 of Levoxyl for several months, .1 before

that for 9 to 10 yrs, that my testing on Frees said a .6 Free T4 in a range

of .8 upward, and a Free T3 in the VERY lower range of " normal " , AND a TSH

of 35. something. That was 10 months ago. Last testing at the end of May

of this yr said TSH of 0.06 (?), I believe, a Free T4 of 1.2, and a Free T3

of 4.5, above the range going to 4.2. In my case, that could be a little

steep on the T3 (some it would not be), but time will tell. My next testing

will be somewhere around the end of August. You had not had any kind of

testing prior to this, ever??

Comments please! I got my labs back!

> I just got my labs back after taking Armour and hc for 3 weeks. The only

pre-Armour tests I have of any significance is TSH. My PCP only does TT4 and

T3 uptake with the TSH ( sigh )

>

> PreArmour TSH-1.5 ( different lab )

> 3 weeks into Armour ( at 1.25 gr ) TSH-0.62

>

> 3 weeks into Armour fT4-1.2 ( ref .8-1.8 )

>

> 3 weeks into Armour fT3-4.0 ( ref 2.3-4.2 )

>

> I am now needing 1.5 gr per day to feel great. The bloodwork is

interesting. TSH is already down quite a bit. It's too soon to say much

because I am only 3 weeks on Armour, but thought the TSH drop was

interesting.

>

> My adrenals are WORN OUT!!! Like we didn't already know that!!! LOL

>

> Besides that adding pure salt to my diet has decreased my water retention.

I am also LESS thirsty since adding the salt. My God, there were times in

the past where I could not go to bed because no matter how much I drank my

mouth was dry.

>

> DHEA-33 ( ref 35-430 ) POOR ADRENALS!!!

>

> Who has experience with supplementing DHEA? Hubby is picking some up on

the way home tonight! :-)

>

> Potassium- 5.1 ( ref 3.6-5.2 ) AHA! That potassium hoarding from weak

adrenals! I am not surprised.

>

> Good news is that I do not have any antithyroid antibodies! Hooray!!! I

celebrated with a huge piece of sea salt laden seaweed! YUM!

>

> Cholesterol was UP from 9 years ago. New cholesterol is 196! Speaks of

low thyroid!

>

> Ferritin-26 ( ref 10-291 ) What do you all think?

>

> More good news: BP sit/stand test today: sit 112/71 HR 74; stand 124/97

HR 78 !!!

>

> 2 weeks ago I could not get out of the low 100's on the systolic. Maybe I

can start decreasing my hc? I had just read a paper saying to not take hc

past 2 PM because of the natural cycles. I certainly have needed that every

4 hours no matter what time it has been! Now I am thinking about starting to

mimic natural cortisol levels better....see how I do.

>

> I have never had a cortisol saliva test. But, with feeling so great from

the HC I can only assume I NEED it. I think that once I can wean off it I

will do the test, see if things are fixed well enough

>

> I just read an article about if the adrenal gland cannot produce cortisol

in response to the high ACTH, then it aberrantly produces estrogen. That

creates an excess of estrogen that then binds thyroid hormone making it

unusable. Furthermore, if you do not have enough thyroid hormone then you

cannot use the cortisol you do have. GEEZ, talk about being stuck! The

answer appears to be....heal the adrenals.

>

> I am wondering if perhaps once my adrenal glands are healed, if they can

be, that perhaps I might not need Armour. Who knows? We'll see.

>

> PLEASE....COMMENTS about DHEA and Ferritin, or anything! :-)

> Thanks,

> Roxanna

July 23, 2004

In a message dated 7/23/2004 8:28:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cris@... writes:

> - my throat - it is driving me absolutely crazy! the past month, I need to

> have a drink or something with me all of the time - I get this - not quite a

> tickle, but this feeling in the back of my throat - I'll start to cough

> without a drink - I do have allergies - but have never had anything like this

> before.

>

Yes...I have this Cris....and have no idea what is causing it...i didn't have

it when i was still hypo. go figure.

cindi

July 23, 2004

I agree - and am trying to figure out how I am going to get her to realize this

- I know I am maybe being stupid, but I really want to push it this way - having

this new dr. treat me - before I treat myself.

I am contemplating making an apt. anyway to talk to her in person.

Question - my throat - it is driving me absolutely crazy! the past month, I need

to have a drink or something with me all of the time - I get this - not quite a

tickle, but this feeling in the back of my throat - I'll start to cough without

a drink - I do have allergies - but have never had anything like this before.

does this sound familiar to anyone??

Cris

Re: Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

In a message dated 7/22/2004 4:43:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cris@... writes:

> she said no more bloodwork and no more armour for 3 months!!!!

3 months is too long.

cindi

July 23, 2004

HI, Roxanna,

Fascinating! I don't remember what's recommended on the DHEA. I just remember

that women are suggested to use less than men.

I found your comment about being thirsty at bedtime, interesting. That happens

to me alot. I just thought it was side effects from a couple

of my medications. But it seems like it often gets worse when it's time to go

to bed and the more I drink doesn't seem to make a difference.

in Va.

I just got my labs back after taking Armour and hc for 3 weeks. The only

pre-Armour tests I have of any significance is TSH. My PCP only does TT4 and T3

uptake with the TSH ( sigh )

PreArmour TSH-1.5 ( different lab )

3 weeks into Armour ( at 1.25 gr ) TSH-0.62

3 weeks into Armour fT4-1.2 ( ref .8-1.8 )

3 weeks into Armour fT3-4.0 ( ref 2.3-4.2 )

I am now needing 1.5 gr per day to feel great. The bloodwork is interesting.

TSH is already down quite a bit. It's too soon to say much because I am only 3

weeks on Armour, but thought the TSH drop was interesting.

My adrenals are WORN OUT!!! Like we didn't already know that!!! LOL

Besides that adding pure salt to my diet has decreased my water retention. I

am also LESS thirsty since adding the salt. My God, there were times in the past

where I could not go to bed because no matter how much I drank my mouth was dry.

DHEA-33 ( ref 35-430 ) POOR ADRENALS!!!

Who has experience with supplementing DHEA? Hubby is picking some up on the

way home tonight! :-)

Potassium- 5.1 ( ref 3.6-5.2 ) AHA! That potassium hoarding from weak

adrenals! I am not surprised.

Good news is that I do not have any antithyroid antibodies! Hooray!!! I

celebrated with a huge piece of sea salt laden seaweed! YUM!

Cholesterol was UP from 9 years ago. New cholesterol is 196! Speaks of low

thyroid!

Ferritin-26 ( ref 10-291 ) What do you all think?

More good news: BP sit/stand test today: sit 112/71 HR 74; stand 124/97 HR

78 !!!

2 weeks ago I could not get out of the low 100's on the systolic. Maybe I can

start decreasing my hc? I had just read a paper saying to not take hc past 2 PM

because of the natural cycles. I certainly have needed that every 4 hours no

matter what time it has been! Now I am thinking about starting to mimic natural

cortisol levels better....see how I do.

I have never had a cortisol saliva test. But, with feeling so great from the

HC I can only assume I NEED it. I think that once I can wean off it I will do

the test, see if things are fixed well enough

I just read an article about if the adrenal gland cannot produce cortisol in

response to the high ACTH, then it aberrantly produces estrogen. That creates an

excess of estrogen that then binds thyroid hormone making it unusable.

Furthermore, if you do not have enough thyroid hormone then you cannot use the

cortisol you do have. GEEZ, talk about being stuck! The answer appears to

be....heal the adrenals.

I am wondering if perhaps once my adrenal glands are healed, if they can be,

that perhaps I might not need Armour. Who knows? We'll see.

PLEASE....COMMENTS about DHEA and Ferritin, or anything! :-)

Thanks,

Roxanna

July 24, 2004

In a message dated 7/24/2004 9:55:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,

tayamni@... writes:

> This was always the time where I would get those swollen " pig toes " ...up to

> the ankles.

PIG TOE? Yikes. I haven't read about this hypo symptom.

Cindi

July 24, 2004

Hi ,

I'm taking 25 mg of DHEA per day right now, but will be switching to

pregnenolone when it arrives. Hubby tried to buy it at several stores and boy oh

boy did he get some looks! It was as if he were trying to buy street drugs or

something! VERY weird. He got comments like, " that is a HORMONE! " said with

aghast and frowns.

We have been having HHH awful weather for a week. This was always the time where

I would get those swollen " pig toes " ...up to the ankles. I was ok till day 4 of

the HHH, then I saw a bit of " pig toe " creeping up. I increased the pure salt

supplement to 3/8 tsp daily. The " pig toes " were gone by evening. That article

was a savior!

Try increasing your salt supplementation. He says to add pure Kosher salt

without additives. I cannot believe how much less thirsty I am. It's funny, I

kinda miss it in a way. I enjoyed all the herbal tea flavors.....but I don't

feel like drinking so much now. It's very strange to have a pleasant

psychological habit of drinking a lot still but no physiologic need...and so not

indulge. It's like I am not me! I do not miss those nights tho of standing at

the sink drinking to try and get rid of the thirst before bed! It was definitely

pathological. It reminded me of some physiological reaction to some unconscious

paranoia that water would never be available again!!! LOL Hope you can get rid

of yours too.

Best,

Roxanna

Roxanna V. Knight-Plouff, D.V.M.

W Plouff

North Star German Shepherd Dog Rescue Inc

northstargsdr@...

www.northstargsdr.org

Re: Comments please! I got my labs back!

HI, Roxanna,

Fascinating! I don't remember what's recommended on the DHEA. I just

remember that women are suggested to use less than men.

I found your comment about being thirsty at bedtime, interesting. That

happens to me alot. I just thought it was side effects from a couple

of my medications. But it seems like it often gets worse when it's time to

go to bed and the more I drink doesn't seem to make a difference.

in Va.

I just got my labs back after taking Armour and hc for 3 weeks. The only

pre-Armour tests I have of any significance is TSH. My PCP only does TT4 and T3

uptake with the TSH ( sigh )

PreArmour TSH-1.5 ( different lab )

3 weeks into Armour ( at 1.25 gr ) TSH-0.62

3 weeks into Armour fT4-1.2 ( ref .8-1.8 )

3 weeks into Armour fT3-4.0 ( ref 2.3-4.2 )

I am now needing 1.5 gr per day to feel great. The bloodwork is interesting.

TSH is already down quite a bit. It's too soon to say much because I am only 3

weeks on Armour, but thought the TSH drop was interesting.

My adrenals are WORN OUT!!! Like we didn't already know that!!! LOL

Besides that adding pure salt to my diet has decreased my water retention. I

am also LESS thirsty since adding the salt. My God, there were times in the past

where I could not go to bed because no matter how much I drank my mouth was dry.

DHEA-33 ( ref 35-430 ) POOR ADRENALS!!!

Who has experience with supplementing DHEA? Hubby is picking some up on the

way home tonight! :-)

Potassium- 5.1 ( ref 3.6-5.2 ) AHA! That potassium hoarding from weak

adrenals! I am not surprised.

Good news is that I do not have any antithyroid antibodies! Hooray!!! I

celebrated with a huge piece of sea salt laden seaweed! YUM!

Cholesterol was UP from 9 years ago. New cholesterol is 196! Speaks of low

thyroid!

Ferritin-26 ( ref 10-291 ) What do you all think?

More good news: BP sit/stand test today: sit 112/71 HR 74; stand 124/97

HR 78 !!!

2 weeks ago I could not get out of the low 100's on the systolic. Maybe I

can start decreasing my hc? I had just read a paper saying to not take hc past

2 PM because of the natural cycles. I certainly have needed that every 4 hours

no matter what time it has been! Now I am thinking about starting to mimic

natural cortisol levels better....see how I do.

I have never had a cortisol saliva test. But, with feeling so great from the

HC I can only assume I NEED it. I think that once I can wean off it I will do

the test, see if things are fixed well enough

I just read an article about if the adrenal gland cannot produce cortisol in

response to the high ACTH, then it aberrantly produces estrogen. That creates an

excess of estrogen that then binds thyroid hormone making it unusable.

Furthermore, if you do not have enough thyroid hormone then you cannot use the

cortisol you do have. GEEZ, talk about being stuck! The answer appears to

be....heal the adrenals.

I am wondering if perhaps once my adrenal glands are healed, if they can be,

that perhaps I might not need Armour. Who knows? We'll see.

PLEASE....COMMENTS about DHEA and Ferritin, or anything! :-)

Thanks,

Roxanna

July 28, 2004

Hi, Roxanna,

I've bought pregnenolone in health food stores before. But they usually only

have one bottle! So those people realize pregnenolone is a hormone but they

don't realize DHEA is a hormone too? LOL

Hmm... So what would pure kosher salt be? Is that neither Mortons nor Realsalt

or Celtic salt (with trace minerals)? How much salt did you say you add to your

glass of water?

I know what you mean about the nighttime thirst! Really weird.

in Va.

Hi ,

I'm taking 25 mg of DHEA per day right now, but will be switching to

pregnenolone when it arrives. Hubby tried to buy it at several stores and boy oh

boy did he get some looks! It was as if he were trying to buy street drugs or

something! VERY weird. He got comments like, " that is a HORMONE! " said with

aghast and frowns.

We have been having HHH awful weather for a week. This was always the time

where I would get those swollen " pig toes " ...up to the ankles. I was ok till day

4 of the HHH, then I saw a bit of " pig toe " creeping up. I increased the pure

salt supplement to 3/8 tsp daily. The " pig toes " were gone by evening. That

article was a savior!