Re: something to think about...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/7/99 9:46:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mdmoore4@...

writes:

<<

Remember Dr. Spock, who said we shouldn't spank our children

when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped

and

we might damage their self-esteem? And we said, OK, we won't spank

them. >>

well--i wont either--many children who turn out " bad " are the ones whoa re

spanked---not the other way around

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

This is something I just posted to another list and it is somewhat relating to

this.

Art,

You called it perfectly it is a " mentality " The whole Columbine thing has me a

little crazy. It seems most people are talking about either gun control or

prayer being the answer and I just don't see either of those working. Our

country is founded on the principal that we are so free that we have the right

to protect that freedom. Taking guns away won't work. I was raised with guns

loaded around my house all the time, but my parents made it perfectly clear that

I wasn't to touch them. I never even considered it. I am not a gun person and

certainly have never shot anyone. I will at some point learn to shoot and take

a safety course maybe with my dd when she is old enough. Anyway I think the

whole problem with our teens is their " mentality " and the way they are raised to

think. If they are raised to think that life is invaluable then their actions

will be according to their belief. I don't know how we can get families to

raise their children with life affirming beliefs but I know that more schools,

gun control, curfew, and prayer in school aren't going to fix what ails us.

Blessings!

Wendi

something to think about...

Whoa! What in the world is happening with our kids today? Let's

see...I think it started when Madeline Murray O'Hare complained that she

didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you had better not read the Bible in school-the

Bible that says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your

neighbor as yourself. And we said, OK.

Remember Dr. Spock, who said we shouldn't spank our children

when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped

and

we might damage their self-esteem? And we said, OK, we won't spank

them.

Then someone said that teachers and principals better not discipline

our children when they misbehave. And our administrators said whoa, no

one

in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we

don't

want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they

want, and we won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's

a

grand idea.

Then someone else said, let's give our sons all the condoms they

want, so they can have all the " fun " they desire, and we won't have to

tell

their parents. And we said, that's another great idea.

And then some of our top officials said that it doesn't matter what we

do in private as long as we do our jobs. And we said, as long as I have

a job and the economy is

good, it doesn't matter to me what anyone does in private.

So now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience,

why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to

kill

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it

out.

I think it has a great deal to do with " we reap what we sow " .

~~I didn't write this, got it from loop mail...thought it was worht

passing on~~

---Debbie

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/7/99 1:57:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Phawxsee@...

writes:

<< well--i wont either--many children who turn out " bad " are the ones whoa re

spanked---not the other way around

>>

Ok, I will probably get alot of disagreement on this one, but here goes.....

I am sorry Ali, but I beg to differ.

IMO, parents who at LEAST take the time to Spank their kids are at least

paying attention enough to know when their kids are doing wrong. Now days

most parents have NO IDEA what thier kids are up to. These kids who have done

these things like the school shooting, both parents worked, or were single

parents, and had no idea what was going on with their kids.

I think " MOST " kids who have been spanked, have been taught there will be a

consequence to their actions. I am not talking about people who BEAT thier

kids, I would never agree with that.

Until RECENTLY, we have NEVER had problems like we have now when kids go to

school and shoot other kids.

We NEVER had such prevelant gang activity, such voilent movies,games, etc....

I for one WAS raised with a very abusive father, and I KNEW I better never

get into trouble or I would have to pay the consequences on my actions. Just

like in the " old " days parents would make their kids go GET the switch to

spank them with.

YES there have always been problems with kids, but KIDS WILL BE KIDS, but

there has NEVER until recently been such an extreme to it.

I don't think SPANKING is neccesarily the " RIGHT " answer, but I DO think we

have become a society where kids think they can get away with anything, and

not have to pay for it.

The extreme point we have gotten to, makes ME wonder if MORE kids HAD BEEN,

or WERE more strictly disciplined would we have gotten to THIS point, where

kids are afraid to go to school, if you wear the wrong color, it could get

you at LEAST beat up, if not shot by a rival gang....

I mean I just don't see HOW ELSE we have gotten here.

What ever happened to kids were taught to RESPECT their elders, other

children, and if you did something wrong you KNEW you would get into trouble

for it.

I mean alot of people disagree with the old attitude of kids were to be seen

and not heard, BUT, when this was the way, we did not have these kind of

problems.

People used to think ELVIS was a punk rocker, my grandmother would die of a

heart-attack if she heard some of the things on the radio these days.

I just don't know, I sit and think about this alot, and I wish there was a

magic wand to fix it, but I am not sure we can.

But I do think we have become a society where parents have become distanced

from their kids, STARTING from birth, by sticking/proping a bottle in their

mouth, and leaving them to go about thier own business.

Well I will shut up now, I hope I haven't offended anyone to badly, but those

are *MY* opinions, If I have offended, I am sorry, we can agree to disagree

Love to all,

Stacie

[Guest guest]

Let me also add this,

I am not saying that spanking it right, nor am I saying that these kids who

do things like this, that the reason is because their parents worked or were

single.

I mean, there has OBVIOUSLY, been something that went seriously wrong with

these kids somewhere.

And by saying what I did in my last letter, I mean that it is because we have

become so disconnected to our kids.

There are many WONDERFUL working parents, who raise perfectly normal, if not

above normal kids, who do not do things like this, the same for single

parents.

I think that it is a number of things combined not just one thing like being

a single mom or etc.....

I wanted to clarify on that so no one thought I was bashing working parents

or single parents!

Thanks,

Stacie

[Guest guest]

no you havent offended me at all! i love hearing everyones opinions! but i

think its more importnant to gently discipline your childr, and pay attention

to EVERYTHING that they do---bu ti just think ifs extremely unfair to blame

dr.spock personally for kids being misbehaved----thats just irresponsible. no

had anything against dr spock until he began actively protesting the war in

Vietnam--then he was responsible for an entire geneation of children. no one

blames dr sears for their kids misbehavior, and his ideas about discipline

are far laxer (sp?) than dr spocks---i think parents need to raise and

discipline their children in a manner they feel comfortable with--however

that may be. as long as THEY take responsiblity and dont just say " blame it

on spock " (or whoever)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/7/99 3:51:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Phawxsee@...

writes:

<< -i think parents need to raise and

discipline their children in a manner they feel comfortable with--however

that may be. as long as THEY take responsiblity and dont just say " blame it

on spock " (or whoever) >>

Exactly....That was the point I was trying to make! Kids DO need SOME form of

discipline.

I hardly know who Dr. Spock is anyways....LOL!! But you are right, parents

AND kids need to start taking responsibilty for the things they do, and if

kids do something wrong, they need to know there will be a consequence from

that no matter how the parents personally chose to do it!

Glad to hear I did not offend you!

Stacie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/7/99 9:54:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

naturebaby@... writes:

<< Stacie,

This reminded me of a book called Bringing Up Kids Without Tearing Them

Down. I read it when Kaija was little. I can't remember the author. He

condoned spanking but with lots of limitations. I have used his method with

Kaija and it has worked very well. I don't think I will need to spank Zaid

as he is very sensitive to doing the wrong thing. My daughter didn't care at

all. She would get so out of control. If I didn't spank her the few times I

did she would be a nightmare right now. Instead she is very respectful and

polite but also trusts me completely to keep her safe. She pushes me to see

if I am in charge, if I had waivered she wouldn't trust me to be in charge.

This would make her feel that I couldn't protect her and she would become

stressed. It has worked for her and I but I am sure it could be damaging to

certain children like Zaid. Parents need to be connected and aware enough to

find what works for each child.

Wendi >>

See THAT is one of the reasons I love you so much Wendi! This is exactly what

I meant......You and I seem to have very similar views.

And You are so right, in moderation, spanking CAN BE the only way you can get

your point through to some children. And from the looks of Lexi as to date, I

am sure I will end up spanking her at least once. She is a very high spirited

child ALREADY....some days I would love to pull my hair out...LOL! But also

with my background with abuse, I will try every other method first. I would

hate to have worked so hard to end that cycle to only start it again with

Lexi.

And you are also right again when you say Parents need to be

connected enough to know what works for their kids!

I don't think that by trying to do this when the child is a teenager is good

enough.......It HAS to start from when they are small, from when they become

toddlers, to about age 5-7, THAT is the age when they learn these

things.....NOT when it is too late, and all you can do it lock these kids up

in a facility somewhere, and not deal with it!

Well as I am sure you can tell this is a VERY sensitive issue for me,

considering my own background, and seeing my family go through some of thise,

I tend to get carried away.

SO I will shut up

But I am really glad that my letter was not taken wrong, I REALLY LOVE this

group.

Thank You, you are a bunch of wonderful women!

Stacie

[Guest guest]

Stacie,

Yes, I think we all have a right to our own opinions. You make many valid

points. The part(s) I agree most with are the ones where you say that

spanking is not the best solution. I have spanked my older son and regret

it. I do not see that it taught him any consequences other than I am bigger

than he is and he should fear me because of that. I am one who thinks that

everything in moderation is probably okay (for the most part). A swift swat

on the bottom when a child runs into the street or is being dangerous is not

the spankings I worry about. I think in order to be effective ANY form of

discipline (and I believe that spanking is punishment, not discipline) should

catch the child's attention. If spanking is used often, it becomes ordinary

and expected. I was spanked only a handful of times (for safety issues) as a

child and many people would think I was not disciplined. I was allowed to

speak my mind and was respected for my opinions. I think those things

benefitted me...thanks Mom! I guess I don't think wether a child is spanked

or not spanked has a lot to do with that child being responsible for their

actions. There are many ways to teach accountability and responsibility in

everyday life that don't hurt. I respect you for posting your opinion

[Guest guest]

Stacie, and all,

Well said. RESPONSIBILITY is the key I think!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/7/99 10:26:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

Mparker90@... writes:

<< I guess I don't think wether a child is spanked

or not spanked has a lot to do with that child being responsible for their

actions. There are many ways to teach accountability and responsibility in

everyday life that don't hurt. I respect you for posting your opinion

>>

Oh no I was not saying spanking should always be used to punish you kids. In

fact, I would personally LOVE to say some one should NEVER spank their kids,

but that is not really realistic. As you know I was abused as a kid, so I

certainly know it is not something that should be used as discipline, or

punishment as an every day thing, or for everything that a child does wrong.

I meant to say that just like everything else in moderation, it CAN be very

benificial to some kids.

I agree with you that there are other ways to teach a child responsibility,

and about consquences.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

Stacie

[Guest guest]

Stacie,

This reminded me of a book called Bringing Up Kids Without Tearing Them Down. I

read it when Kaija was little. I can't remember the author. He condoned

spanking but with lots of limitations. I have used his method with Kaija and it

has worked very well. I don't think I will need to spank Zaid as he is very

sensitive to doing the wrong thing. My daughter didn't care at all. She would

get so out of control. If I didn't spank her the few times I did she would be a

nightmare right now. Instead she is very respectful and polite but also trusts

me completely to keep her safe. She pushes me to see if I am in charge, if I

had waivered she wouldn't trust me to be in charge. This would make her feel

that I couldn't protect her and she would become stressed. It has worked for

her and I but I am sure it could be damaging to certain children like Zaid.

Parents need to be connected and aware enough to find what works for each child.

Wendi

Re: something to think about...

From: MamaToLexi@...

In a message dated 5/7/99 1:57:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Phawxsee@...

writes:

<< well--i wont either--many children who turn out " bad " are the ones whoa re

spanked---not the other way around

>>

Ok, I will probably get alot of disagreement on this one, but here goes.....

I am sorry Ali, but I beg to differ.

IMO, parents who at LEAST take the time to Spank their kids are at least

paying attention enough to know when their kids are doing wrong. Now days

most parents have NO IDEA what thier kids are up to. These kids who have done

these things like the school shooting, both parents worked, or were single

parents, and had no idea what was going on with their kids.

I think " MOST " kids who have been spanked, have been taught there will be a

consequence to their actions. I am not talking about people who BEAT thier

kids, I would never agree with that.

Until RECENTLY, we have NEVER had problems like we have now when kids go to

school and shoot other kids.

We NEVER had such prevelant gang activity, such voilent movies,games, etc....

I for one WAS raised with a very abusive father, and I KNEW I better never

get into trouble or I would have to pay the consequences on my actions. Just

like in the " old " days parents would make their kids go GET the switch to

spank them with.

YES there have always been problems with kids, but KIDS WILL BE KIDS, but

there has NEVER until recently been such an extreme to it.

I don't think SPANKING is neccesarily the " RIGHT " answer, but I DO think we

have become a society where kids think they can get away with anything, and

not have to pay for it.

The extreme point we have gotten to, makes ME wonder if MORE kids HAD BEEN,

or WERE more strictly disciplined would we have gotten to THIS point, where

kids are afraid to go to school, if you wear the wrong color, it could get

you at LEAST beat up, if not shot by a rival gang....

I mean I just don't see HOW ELSE we have gotten here.

What ever happened to kids were taught to RESPECT their elders, other

children, and if you did something wrong you KNEW you would get into trouble

for it.

I mean alot of people disagree with the old attitude of kids were to be seen

and not heard, BUT, when this was the way, we did not have these kind of

problems.

People used to think ELVIS was a punk rocker, my grandmother would die of a

heart-attack if she heard some of the things on the radio these days.

I just don't know, I sit and think about this alot, and I wish there was a

magic wand to fix it, but I am not sure we can.

But I do think we have become a society where parents have become distanced

from their kids, STARTING from birth, by sticking/proping a bottle in their

mouth, and leaving them to go about thier own business.

Well I will shut up now, I hope I haven't offended anyone to badly, but those

are *MY* opinions, If I have offended, I am sorry, we can agree to disagree

Love to all,

Stacie

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