Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 Be prepared, plan ahead and make your wishes known to your loved ones. I guess thats all we can do. na Re: laws and state rights Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 18:00:46 -0400 >Okay , I also read Tuedays with Morrie; I see a lot of your perspectivere being a burden; BUT what about when someone is in severe pain? And not in control enough to make decisions for themselves? marie It's an individual thing, of course. (And by individual, we're talking about the person and everyone surrounding them in a particular place/time... and all those people will do the best they can to do what they think their loved one would want.) Something that I think should be universal is for people to be surrounded with love and compassion (whether a right to die is being exercised or not... it could help in healing if that's the way things may go in that particular instance--and I do realize there are many instances where that's not the case). Of course, it would be even better for people to be surrounded by love and compassion whether they were in a severely weakened condition or not!!! reciprocal and contagious to boot! With love, compassion, and some understanding (with still much to learn!), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 Nate, You Republicans scare me, I swear! =P If we repeal Roe v. Wade and make abortion illegal, we're forcing women to go have back alley abortions, man! We don't want that. I'd rather have her have the procedure done at a sanitized clinic/hospital than someone's living room or garage. And you speak of implications with Bush's thinking. I only see one implication IF he doesn't support funding. One, valuable information will be lost, and two we'd be saying no to finding a cure for people with Cancer, Diabetes, Parkinson's Syndrome, and YES NF-STINKIN'-II!!! I don't think we want that. Like I said before, if a cure for NF2 is found via stem cell research, I can honestly say I'll be the first in line. Mark <br><br><br> " I would rather try something great and fail than try nothing great and succeed " --Unknown " To live the ultimate dream is to face the ultimate nightmare " --No Fear Inc. " The greater the diffuclty, the greater the glory " --Cicisero ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: NF2_Crew To: NF2_Crew Subject: Re: laws and state rights Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 08:30:30 -0700 (PDT) --- Mark Sarmac wrote: > Nate, > Animal Rights activist say the same thing > when using animals for > research! But, I bet you ANYTHING, that if one of > them have a disease that > is horrendous like NF2, that where a cure has been > found through animal > research they'd change there minds in a heartbeat! Mark, I am FOR animalresearch. I am not an " animal rights " activist. I am not one of those who believes animals and humans are equal and have the same rights. Do I think we should intentionally inflict pain on them? No... but if carving up a monkey will cure cancer, here's a scalpel- get to work! haha > This is what I was afraid of when W. Bush got > selected to the > Presidency. It seems he's being swayed by the > religious right in this > country (the US) and that's sad because there's a > seperation of Church and > State. Nooo..... Mark, he's actually using his head and his own personal conscience to consider an issue that has deep implications. I think he should be commended for putting this much thought into it. I know it kills you Clinton/Gore supporters to have a man in office who HAS a conscience. > If W. Bush doesn't fund Stem Cell > Research, what's next, > repeal Roe v. Wade and make abortion illegal???? I hope so! Nate __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Wow , That is deep, and very well said. I hope I can explain this correctly. While Dr. Kavorkian was doing his assisted suicides I got into reading about if we let doctors or HMOs determine when a person is a burden to themselves, their family, or society we then put non-value on life. And if this was to happen, ie: we let insurance companies predetermine when life should end, and then give the patient a sleeping pill or shot, never to awaken again, we're opening up a whole different bag of problems. For example, when are we no longer a productive part of society? Some would say I'm a burden and a strain on my family and my government. Does that mean I should die? I'll be faced with not being able to feed myself or not being able to go to the bathroom myself before I know it. But I happen to think I'll still be an asset. Isn't being productive a matter of relativity? We need help feeding and wiping ourselves when we're a newborn baby. And any new mother or father would tell you it just goes with the territory- life. BTW Lori, I'm not sure God cares what religion a person is. He only cares that you believe He's out there. And that you think of Him. God doesn't want anyone to force religion on anyone. He's given us the free will to choose that. End of speech.... just my food for thought....:>) Later, JD in AZ On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:46:44 -0500 " L. Przybysz " writes: > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 22:28:22 -0700 > > > Nooooooooooooooooooooo Mark, nobody is ASKING a Dr to end their > life. BUT, > they have medicines that they can give you to make the end sooner > and less > painful. Death with Dignity. If ever I cant wipe my own ass or > feed myself > and Im in great pain and have become a burden to those I love, I > would > choose to go. > > Hi Lori, I totally respect your personal choice. just adding a > little more > to the discussion here... > Has anybody read ~Tuesdays with Morrie~ by Mitch Albom? (There were > > Nightline segments of Morrie shown with the tv movie a little while > back > too...) I don't know if it's something you gotta experience to > understand, > but having someone wipe your ass or feed you isn't nearly as > shameful as > we're socialized to believe (so it should definitely be kept > separate from > our notions of dignity). Morrie was able to cut through the crap > and share > his experiences. I can't stress how important it was for me to read > his > interpretations, as they affirmed my own from my experience of > extreme > dependence after the surgery in 1996. It's definitely a matter of > perspective. I agree that if people don't want to live, then they > shouldn't > be forced to against they're wishes, but their decisions shouldn't > be > influenced by societally-induced guilt for becoming " a burden. " The > > influence of culture probably cancels this notion (since it makes > everyone > want everything instantaneously), but what if the ego flies out the > window as > we approach death and then we're free to explore states of > being/mind that we > can't even fathom within our everyday existence? The last thing > we'd be > thinking about would be that we were undignified or in pain... I can > see > standards getting all thrown in disarray. Then at some point or > whatever, we > have to decide whether we wish to continue our earthly existence or > move on > to alternate realms (or cease to exist--whatever your belief may > be...) We > don't know what we're getting ourselves into, but there is a morsel > of > empowerment in making that decision, perhaps. Whatever the choice > turns out > to be, I think we should be surrounded by compassion and love so > they are > free to make our choice... and not by loved ones who are worrying > about how > much pain we're in or how much we must hate being so " pitifully > dependent. " > We can't cultivate compassion rather than pity with slogans like > death with > dignity floating around. > It's also my view that we've always got all kinds of Meaning > floating around > us as we're living our lives. Viewing a loved one that has become > dependent > as a burden is a fault in perception. (how easy would it be for > roles to be > reversed?!) The problem is too many people who always think they're > missing > something better... when chances are they're not making the most of > what they > have access to at the moment. Thanks for catalyzing my thoughts. I > was > itching to write, but seatbelts and swimming couldn't do it for > me... > Love and Hugs, > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Mark, Actually stem cell(s) come from embryos, ana embryo with eyes, and a heartbeat and finger nails. JD On Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:18:33 -0700 " Mark Sarmac " writes: > Nate, > > How can you compare something so atrocious like the Holocaust to > Stem Cell > Research???? The Nazis used the Jews, who are human... HUMAN!!!! > Stem cell > research is using one celled organisms! There's a huge, HUGE, > difference > there bro! Animal Rights activist say the same thing when using > animals for > research! But, I bet you ANYTHING, that if one of them have a > disease that > is horrendous like NF2, that where a cure has been found through > animal > research they'd change there minds in a heartbeat! Speaking of which > there's > an old poster I'm reminded of. It shows a picture of animal rights > activist > protesting animal research and a caption that reads: " Thanks to > animal > research, they're complaining 10 years longer! " > > This is what I was afraid of when W. Bush got selected to the > > Presidency. It seems he's being swayed by the religious right in > this > country (the US) and that's sad because there's a seperation of > Church and > State. If W. Bush doesn't fund Stem Cell Research, what's > next, > repeal Roe v. Wade and make abortion illegal???? > > Mark > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > The end does not justify the means. If Nazi > scientists had been able to cure a disease using their > " research " on unwilling Jews, would you still be the > first in line? You said yourself that embryos have > the potential to become humans. Who decides whether > or not that potential is snuffed out? > > Nate- not stirring up a debate, I promise! Just > dishing out food for thought... > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 I am very sadden that you feel this way JD, it must be terrible to think your family would kill you:( The bill in Or is the right to choose for yourself, not the family or insurance companies to make that choice. ~Lowi Re: laws and state rights > Wow , That is deep, and very well said. I hope I can explain this > correctly. While Dr. Kavorkian was doing his assisted suicides I got into > reading about if we let doctors or HMOs determine when a person is a > burden to themselves, their family, or society we then put non-value on > life. And if this was to happen, ie: we let insurance companies > predetermine when life should end, and then give the patient a sleeping > pill or shot, never to awaken again, we're opening up a whole different > bag of problems. For example, when are we no longer a productive part of > society? Some would say I'm a burden and a strain on my family and my > government. Does that mean I should die? I'll be faced with not being > able to feed myself or not being able to go to the bathroom myself before > I know it. But I happen to think I'll still be an asset. Isn't being > productive a matter of relativity? We need help feeding and wiping > ourselves when we're a newborn baby. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Sorry, not sure which article this is referring to? Laws and state rights?? marie Re: laws and state rights > > >Thats so good Marie. I have heard a saying like that before. " Yesterday is >history tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift, that why its called the >present:) " Good huh??~~Lowi:) > Re: laws and state rights > > >> I am not nearly as eloquent as , but did anyone read about Ram Dass? >> He had a very severe stroke, is in his 60s, needs 24 hour care; and I read >> an article by him in Modern Maturity (quit snickering, you'll get there >too) >> He was the one with O'Leary and LSD and how they got kicked out of >> Harvard; and he has been active in hunger issues, etc. Anyhow, I >> thought--let's see what he has to say NOW! I was very surprised; his >> article was " Be Here Now " --yesterday is over and done; you don't know if >> tomorrow will come; what you have is NOW: so you need to make the most of >> NOW. It was actually an upbeat article, I was very surprised. marie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2001 Report Share Posted July 22, 2001 Some day I will learn to scroll down before I send off a hasty reply! My error, sorry. I am sorry I don't have the magazine any more, but I would think it was about this spring. Sorry I can't give you any more info that that. (SEe if you were old like me, you would be getting this mag! LOL Marie Re: laws and state rights > > >Thats so good Marie. I have heard a saying like that before. " Yesterday is >history tomorrow is a mystery, today is a gift, that why its called the >present:) " Good huh??~~Lowi:) > Re: laws and state rights > > >> I am not nearly as eloquent as , but did anyone read about Ram Dass? >> He had a very severe stroke, is in his 60s, needs 24 hour care; and I read >> an article by him in Modern Maturity (quit snickering, you'll get there >too) >> He was the one with O'Leary and LSD and how they got kicked out of >> Harvard; and he has been active in hunger issues, etc. Anyhow, I >> thought--let's see what he has to say NOW! I was very surprised; his >> article was " Be Here Now " --yesterday is over and done; you don't know if >> tomorrow will come; what you have is NOW: so you need to make the most of >> NOW. It was actually an upbeat article, I was very surprised. marie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2001 Report Share Posted July 23, 2001 Marie, you posted a message about the article in Modern Maturity about Ram Dass? We were talking about dying with dignity (see below.) na Re: laws and state rights Sorry, not sure which article this is referring to? Laws and state rights?? marie >----- Original Message ----- > > > >> I am not nearly as eloquent as , but did anyone read about Ram Dass? >> He had a very severe stroke, is in his 60s, needs 24 hour care; and I read >> an article by him in Modern Maturity (quit snickering, you'll get there >too) >> He was the one with O'Leary and LSD and how they got kicked out of >> Harvard; and he has been active in hunger issues, etc. Anyhow, I >> thought--let's see what he has to say NOW! I was very surprised; his >> article was " Be Here Now " --yesterday is over and done; you don't know if >> tomorrow will come; what you have is NOW: so you need to make the most of >> NOW. It was actually an upbeat article, I was very surprised. marie > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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