RE: Runaways and drama

[Guest guest]

You know, this is great info and again like it was said, if you have money,

you can find anything you want; there are no therapist on your list less

than 3 hours from where I live. I am trying to work full time with my

husband working full time and a 13 yr old son; what do you do, uproot from

your full time job and pull your son out of school to cater to this

ungrateful 22 1/2 yr old selfish individual who constantly pulls our chains

and caused so much headache financially and emotionally?

Re: Runaways and drama

Hi Leon,

Not all therapists are trained to work with BPs, especially the older

ones, but there are different therapies that do work. For info on " How

To Choose A BPD Therapist " , go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.shtml

Dialectic Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a type of cognitive-behavioral

therapy developed by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D. at the University of

Washington that has been successfully used to treat people who have BPD.

For an overview of DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy) go to:

http://www.priory.co.uk/dbt1.htm

For more info about DBT go to:

http://www.behavioraltech.com/basics.html

Questions that can be asked in seeking a BPD-knowledgable/trained DBT

therapist are listed on pages 238-239 of SWOE.

To locate a DBT-trained therapist in your area, there's a phone number

you can call listed on the following website:

http://www.brtc.psych.washington.edu

Also, Behavioral Technology Transfer Group (BTTG) in Seattle, WA has a

list of clinicians, both nationally and internationally, who have

completed Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) training with their

company. You can send an email request for referral to a DBT-trained

therapist in your area to:

DBTinfo@...

- Edith

One of the moderators - WTO Lists

Leon Milberg wrote:

> There is certainly " more hope " for those with money. Without it who can

> afford to jump from therapist to therapist to finally find one that can

> recognize the symptoms all BPD parents know exist? Then you have to

> buck the statistics and hope the BPD continues with their therapy (only

> 16% continue in traditional therapy and only 50% with DBT).

>

> Yes there is hope. The odds however are dismal.

>

> Leon Milberg leon@...

[Guest guest]

Edith - if you contact these referrals, you will find that they don't accept

medical coupons. They want insurance or money. I understand that medcial

coupons don't reimburse enough to cover their costs, but nevertheless, it paints

a bleak picture for someone with BPD who can't hold a job and has no financial

resources.

Also, insurance benefits are usually severly restrictive for mental health

issues. I understand that there is legislation in the works to force insurance

companies to cover mental health just as they would cover " normal " medical

benefits, but nothing has come through thus far. Again, a bleak picture.

The greatest benefit is if the BPD can be dianosed while the person is under age

and on the parent's insurance... however, if it can't " really " be diagnosed

until the person is 18, then.... well, you get the picture.

I am sure that many of the parents on this list have horror stories to compare

with mine... trying to find a therapist, insurance nightmares, legal system

nightmares, lack of support from families. Dealing with BPD is very isolating

and requires a great deal of stick-to-it-iveness (or just being an outright

NAG!). Sometimes I just had to wallow around in my self pity for awhile before

I had the strength to dive back into the battle.

Suffice it to say.... it ain't easy! :-)

Re: Runaways and drama

Hi Leon,

Not all therapists are trained to work with BPs, especially the older

ones, but there are different therapies that do work. For info on " How

To Choose A BPD Therapist " , go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.shtml

Dialectic Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a type of cognitive-behavioral

therapy developed by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D. at the University of

Washington that has been successfully used to treat people who have BPD.

For an overview of DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy) go to:

http://www.priory.co.uk/dbt1.htm

For more info about DBT go to:

http://www.behavioraltech.com/basics.html

Questions that can be asked in seeking a BPD-knowledgable/trained DBT

therapist are listed on pages 238-239 of SWOE.

To locate a DBT-trained therapist in your area, there's a phone number

you can call listed on the following website:

http://www.brtc.psych.washington.edu

Also, Behavioral Technology Transfer Group (BTTG) in Seattle, WA has a

list of clinicians, both nationally and internationally, who have

completed Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) training with their

company. You can send an email request for referral to a DBT-trained

therapist in your area to:

DBTinfo@...

- Edith

One of the moderators - WTO Lists

Leon Milberg wrote:

> There is certainly " more hope " for those with money. Without it who can

> afford to jump from therapist to therapist to finally find one that can

> recognize the symptoms all BPD parents know exist? Then you have to

> buck the statistics and hope the BPD continues with their therapy (only

> 16% continue in traditional therapy and only 50% with DBT).

>

> Yes there is hope. The odds however are dismal.

>

> Leon Milberg leon@...

[Guest guest]

Edith:

Please don't take my general attacks on the profession personally. There

are many VERY GOOD therapists. There are also many that are ill

informed with regard to most (if not all) personality disorders.

> Not all therapists are trained to work with BPs, especially the older

> ones, but there are different therapies that do work. For info on " How

> To Choose A BPD Therapist " , go to:

> http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.shtml

That presupposes a diagnosis of BPD in the first place. Most parents that I

have spoken with that have come to " finally " understand their child has

BPD, have come to this only after seeing a number of therapists first. They

come up with all sorts of diagnosis, mostly due to the therapists ignorance

of BPD. Often times months and even years go by before it becomes clear

what the " ultimate diagnosis " or true diagnosis is. Meanwhile the family and

parents, and patient are suffering.

The real problem is that one goes to a professional that is suppose to

recognize what symptoms belong to what disorder. They do not need to be

knowledgeable on the treatment. They need to know THEIR limitations. I

do not think the profession is very enlightened on that point. How can

consumers know what a therapist DOESN'T KNOW? Once a diagnosis is

made, then it just becomes a matter of individual therapists opinion. One

would hope that the diagnosis can come before the BP quits! Parents

describe problems and are told they are the problem. Those therapists

opinions can and often take years and years to iron out an " accurate "

diagnosis.

By that time, the behaviors are more and more entrenched into the psyche

of the individual. When a parent brings a child to a therapist there must be

a perceived need on the part of the parent. Yet too frequently it is turned

around on them from many artful BP's and ill informed therapists.

> Dialectic Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a type of cognitive-behavioral

> therapy developed by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D. at the University of

> Washington that has been successfully used to treat people who have BPD.

> For an overview of DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy) go to:

> http://www.priory.co.uk/dbt1.htm

I am familiar with Dr. Lineham's work. My statistics of 16% quitting with

traditional therapy while ONLY 50% quit with DBT are directly from one of

her studies. She is a pioneer. That however is little consolation to those

that suffer for years before getting even a reasonable diagnosis from those

therapist that are not nearly as well informed.

I make the contention that the people on these lists have more awareness

than far too many therapists. They can spot a BP a mile away now that

they have heard dozens of other people describe the EXACT SAME

symptoms amongst this disorder. One would hope the person they pay as a

professional would be able to see those same qualities.

> Also, Behavioral Technology Transfer Group (BTTG) in Seattle, WA has a

> list of clinicians, both nationally and internationally, who have

> completed Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) training with their

> company. You can send an email request for referral to a DBT-trained

> therapist in your area to:

Like I pointed out, all of the above information, which I am now aware of,

(when it it is far too late) presupposes any knowledge of this disorder.

BPD's have defining characteristics that all here in these groups are

intimately aware. When you hear dozens of people saying the EXACT

same thing about a subset of the population, you would think a connection

would have been made long before the mid 80's.

I have spoken to therapists that solely work with BPD. They describe

carbon copy symptoms that are the same symptoms everyone in these

groups describe. It is almost like BP's have been stamped by some evil

rubber stamp. To me it is a big shortcoming of the mental health profession

to be so ill informed about personality disorders AND that so much

suffering has to occur before finding " the right kind of help " . That is what is

so angering.

Leon Milberg leon@...

[Guest guest]

Leon

If I can suggest, you sound ripe for setting up a TARA chapter in your area,

if you haven't already. Take a look at their website, you may find attitudes

that are similar to yours. The site is at http://www.tara4bpd.org/tara.html

A group of us are considering it for our area. Something has to be done for

families and about services for BPD.

Bill

Re: Runaways and drama

Edith:

Please don't take my general attacks on the profession personally. There

are many VERY GOOD therapists. There are also many that are ill

informed with regard to most (if not all) personality disorders.

> Not all therapists are trained to work with BPs, especially the older

> ones, but there are different therapies that do work. For info on " How

> To Choose A BPD Therapist " , go to:

> http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.shtml

That presupposes a diagnosis of BPD in the first place. Most parents that

I

have spoken with that have come to " finally " understand their child has

BPD, have come to this only after seeing a number of therapists first.

They

come up with all sorts of diagnosis, mostly due to the therapists

ignorance

of BPD. Often times months and even years go by before it becomes clear

what the " ultimate diagnosis " or true diagnosis is. Meanwhile the family

and

parents, and patient are suffering.

The real problem is that one goes to a professional that is suppose to

recognize what symptoms belong to what disorder. They do not need to be

knowledgeable on the treatment. They need to know THEIR limitations. I

do not think the profession is very enlightened on that point. How can

consumers know what a therapist DOESN'T KNOW? Once a diagnosis is

made, then it just becomes a matter of individual therapists opinion. One

would hope that the diagnosis can come before the BP quits! Parents

describe problems and are told they are the problem. Those therapists

opinions can and often take years and years to iron out an " accurate "

diagnosis.

By that time, the behaviors are more and more entrenched into the psyche

of the individual. When a parent brings a child to a therapist there must

be

a perceived need on the part of the parent. Yet too frequently it is

turned

around on them from many artful BP's and ill informed therapists.

> Dialectic Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a type of cognitive-behavioral

> therapy developed by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D. at the University of

> Washington that has been successfully used to treat people who have BPD.

> For an overview of DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy) go to:

> http://www.priory.co.uk/dbt1.htm

I am familiar with Dr. Lineham's work. My statistics of 16% quitting with

traditional therapy while ONLY 50% quit with DBT are directly from one of

her studies. She is a pioneer. That however is little consolation to those

that suffer for years before getting even a reasonable diagnosis from

those

therapist that are not nearly as well informed.

I make the contention that the people on these lists have more awareness

than far too many therapists. They can spot a BP a mile away now that

they have heard dozens of other people describe the EXACT SAME

symptoms amongst this disorder. One would hope the person they pay as a

professional would be able to see those same qualities.

> Also, Behavioral Technology Transfer Group (BTTG) in Seattle, WA has a

> list of clinicians, both nationally and internationally, who have

> completed Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) training with their

> company. You can send an email request for referral to a DBT-trained

> therapist in your area to:

Like I pointed out, all of the above information, which I am now aware of,

(when it it is far too late) presupposes any knowledge of this disorder.

BPD's have defining characteristics that all here in these groups are

intimately aware. When you hear dozens of people saying the EXACT

same thing about a subset of the population, you would think a connection

would have been made long before the mid 80's.

I have spoken to therapists that solely work with BPD. They describe

carbon copy symptoms that are the same symptoms everyone in these

groups describe. It is almost like BP's have been stamped by some evil

rubber stamp. To me it is a big shortcoming of the mental health

profession

to be so ill informed about personality disorders AND that so much

suffering has to occur before finding " the right kind of help " . That is

what is

so angering.

Leon Milberg leon@...

[Guest guest]

Thank you Leon, for saying something that needs to be said. I am not

attacking all therapists; I am just venting a huge amount of anger that I

have built up by not getting the proper help for my daughter and now it is

too late as she feels no doctor can help her and she is tired of trying so

because she is " of age " all I can do is watch her self destruct and can not

do anything about it. And because she is " of age " and can not attend college

or hold down a job, she can no longer stay on our insurance, thus, we can

not afford to try to find any help for her so I feel like I am on a

merry-go-ahead with no way off of it! Thank you for listening; and you are

right; I think the ones that deal with this issue are definitely more

capable of recognizing the symptoms! I only wish I could find a therapist

that is/was a parent to a BP; you talk about having insight!

Re: Runaways and drama

Edith:

Please don't take my general attacks on the profession personally. There

are many VERY GOOD therapists. There are also many that are ill

informed with regard to most (if not all) personality disorders.

> Not all therapists are trained to work with BPs, especially the older

> ones, but there are different therapies that do work. For info on " How

> To Choose A BPD Therapist " , go to:

> http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.shtml

That presupposes a diagnosis of BPD in the first place. Most parents that I

have spoken with that have come to " finally " understand their child has

BPD, have come to this only after seeing a number of therapists first. They

come up with all sorts of diagnosis, mostly due to the therapists ignorance

of BPD. Often times months and even years go by before it becomes clear

what the " ultimate diagnosis " or true diagnosis is. Meanwhile the family and

parents, and patient are suffering.

The real problem is that one goes to a professional that is suppose to

recognize what symptoms belong to what disorder. They do not need to be

knowledgeable on the treatment. They need to know THEIR limitations. I

do not think the profession is very enlightened on that point. How can

consumers know what a therapist DOESN'T KNOW? Once a diagnosis is

made, then it just becomes a matter of individual therapists opinion. One

would hope that the diagnosis can come before the BP quits! Parents

describe problems and are told they are the problem. Those therapists

opinions can and often take years and years to iron out an " accurate "

diagnosis.

By that time, the behaviors are more and more entrenched into the psyche

of the individual. When a parent brings a child to a therapist there must be

a perceived need on the part of the parent. Yet too frequently it is turned

around on them from many artful BP's and ill informed therapists.

> Dialectic Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a type of cognitive-behavioral

> therapy developed by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D. at the University of

> Washington that has been successfully used to treat people who have BPD.

> For an overview of DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy) go to:

> http://www.priory.co.uk/dbt1.htm

I am familiar with Dr. Lineham's work. My statistics of 16% quitting with

traditional therapy while ONLY 50% quit with DBT are directly from one of

her studies. She is a pioneer. That however is little consolation to those

that suffer for years before getting even a reasonable diagnosis from those

therapist that are not nearly as well informed.

I make the contention that the people on these lists have more awareness

than far too many therapists. They can spot a BP a mile away now that

they have heard dozens of other people describe the EXACT SAME

symptoms amongst this disorder. One would hope the person they pay as a

professional would be able to see those same qualities.

> Also, Behavioral Technology Transfer Group (BTTG) in Seattle, WA has a

> list of clinicians, both nationally and internationally, who have

> completed Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) training with their

> company. You can send an email request for referral to a DBT-trained

> therapist in your area to:

Like I pointed out, all of the above information, which I am now aware of,

(when it it is far too late) presupposes any knowledge of this disorder.

BPD's have defining characteristics that all here in these groups are

intimately aware. When you hear dozens of people saying the EXACT

same thing about a subset of the population, you would think a connection

would have been made long before the mid 80's.

I have spoken to therapists that solely work with BPD. They describe

carbon copy symptoms that are the same symptoms everyone in these

groups describe. It is almost like BP's have been stamped by some evil

rubber stamp. To me it is a big shortcoming of the mental health profession

to be so ill informed about personality disorders AND that so much

suffering has to occur before finding " the right kind of help " . That is what

is

so angering.

Leon Milberg leon@...

[Guest guest]

I've been reading this latest thread with mixed feelings. On one

hand, it sure is nice to know that there are others out there going

through similar experiences. On the other, it's very depressing to

see that everyone else is also running into the same brick walls.

When our daughter was 15 she was diagnosed with ADHD and we were

satisfied with that diagnosis because the BPD traits were not so

apparant yet. We were also covered under a group health policy which

was paying for a majority of the counseling and meds.

Then I became self-employed and the insurance company put a waiver on

the policy that my daughter would be excluded from any mental health

benefits for 5 years. Luckily, the agent helped us so that her meds

were covered - albeit with a high deductable and low maximum amount;

yet, it was helpful.

Then, our daughter began to spiral downward as the BPD started

kicking in. We have been paying for her therapist out of our own

pockets for the last 2 years, and she has reduced her fee to heop us

out.

Now our daughter is 18 and has stopped taking all meds. She is

supposed to graduate high school in a few days, but she decided to

cut her hair in a mohawk and now the school may not let her

participate in the commencement. She told us she does not care, but

we told her " hey, this is for us - not you! " I feel like we've

worked harder to get her to this point than she has and we deserve

that diploma!

We found a therapeutic program in Israel for her, but now she refuses

to consider it. She also dropped the bomb on us 6 months ago that

she was gay, so she has adopted a militant, lesbian lifestlye and

wants to move out of our house. She wants to get a job and rent an

apartment in the gay community. She has been drinking and smoking

pot regularly, and having casual sex; this combinded with her refusal

to take her prescription meds is a sure-fire formula for her to crash

and burn.

ly, we feel as though we are no longer effective parents since

she will not listen to us anyway. So, we are giving her the choice

to either enter this program or move out. The only way she is going

to change is to fall flat on her face and hit rock bottom. The scary

part is whether or not she will survive. She has come close to rock

bottom before, but then went right back to her old ways.

At least with her out of the house we can get some peace. With her

living at home we worry about her when she does not come home on time

or call us to let us know where/how she is. With her gone I think we

will worry less.

At any rate, I hope and pray that we all will get through this living

hell in one piece.

[Guest guest]

My daughter is highly functional and wasn't engaged in loops of self

destructive behaviour. However, running is one of her choices and

it's not easily " treated " .

Also, various meds did not seem to help her. It was an interesting

journey and perhaps someday she'll write a great book about it, ala

Girl Interrupted.

> I'm trying to reply to your post where you mentioned that your

> daughter's diagnosis was changed from BPD to more specific

histrionic

> and narcissistic personality disorder. I don't post much, but try

to

> read posts when I can - I have a 19yo daughter who was diagnosed

with

> BPD last summer, but a few months ago the therapist changed her

> diagnosis to Personality Disorder NOS, because she said my daughter

> was too high-functioning at work to be BPD. However, her personal

> life is chaos, with a lot of difficulty with relationships because

of

> her rages and splitting, but she does have the narcissistic and

> histrionic traits as well, which I think goes along with BPD. Do

you

> know why your daughter's therapist changed the diagnosis? With my

> daughter, she definitely meets criteria for BPD, and I think some

BPs

> can hold it together at work, and with people they don't know very

> well.

> Take care,

>

[Guest guest]

Not sure what you've got in NJ, but here in MA I had the same

problem - private insurance, no matter how good, will not cover

extended residential stays.

I found help by using the CHINS (Child In Need Of Support) program

and getting DSS involved. I signed custody over to DSS (temporary,

revocable at any time) and got Mass Health, the best insurance

program I've ever dealt with. ALL of my headaches regarding school

programs, residential placement, etc. went away. In the year that my

daughter was in residential I suspect that $120k was spent on her

behalf.

A year later, I am just getting out from the bills incurred when we

were using private insurance. I suggest looking at around at what

programs are available in your state. It sounds horrific to give

custody of your child over to the state, but it can also save

everyone involved a lot overall.

> Man, can I relate to that! Kudos to your answer, as I feel the

same. Mine

> is 16 and damned if she's been to six different facilities with

each one

> diagnosing something different! When I was growing up, it was

called being hyper,

> or nothing at all, you just dealt with and coped with whatever life

threw at

> you.

> Seems to me these kids today hear there are labels put on problems

why they

> cant deal with issues, and they play on that. Society has given

this

> generation too much to offer them, they have to many material

things, they have too

> much time on their hands, they have no sense of

> responsibility...............hence they have disorders. I'm tired

too, and if these disorders are so bad and

> severe, why do insurance companies only authorize 3 or 6 days when

they are

> facilitized? My major dilemna. How does one get any help when

they are

> released, given meds that take two weeks to kick in, and we take

them home the same

> way they went in? We are running out of places here in NJ. I

think we've been

> to them all.

> Thanx for letting me vent.

> Debbie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Teddi,

I am a therapist (taking licensing exam October 03). I am also the parent of a

14 year old boy with BPD. I am just now starting to focus my training and

skills on BPD including learning DBT. There must be more of us out there. I

have found some wonderful resources on this chat site from other parents.

Hopefully, someone can refer a theraputic expert that is in your area.

Hang in there, it is possible to come out on the other side with your own

sanity. Let me know if there are ways I can help you.

Theresa

[Guest guest]

Thank you; that means a lot from someone that " knows " !

(When will you start taking patients?)

RE: Runaways and drama

Teddi,

I am a therapist (taking licensing exam October 03). I am also the parent

of a 14 year old boy with BPD. I am just now starting to focus my training

and skills on BPD including learning DBT. There must be more of us out

there. I have found some wonderful resources on this chat site from other

parents. Hopefully, someone can refer a theraputic expert that is in your

area.

Hang in there, it is possible to come out on the other side with your own

sanity. Let me know if there are ways I can help you.

Theresa

[Guest guest]

I am going to attend a NAMI (National Alliance of Mental Illness) conference

that will be in Louisville, KY on July 12th; I would be very interested in

meeting anyone that may be on this support group, if interested.

RE: Runaways and drama

Teddi,

I am a therapist (taking licensing exam October 03). I am also the parent

of a 14 year old boy with BPD. I am just now starting to focus my training

and skills on BPD including learning DBT. There must be more of us out

there. I have found some wonderful resources on this chat site from other

parents. Hopefully, someone can refer a theraputic expert that is in your

area.

Hang in there, it is possible to come out on the other side with your own

sanity. Let me know if there are ways I can help you.

Theresa

[Guest guest]

Teddi,

I am in Southern California and will start with patients probably in January

2004. In the meantime, I am studying and taking training in this area.

However, I would like to point out that I used to have the belief that only

someone who had " been there, done that " could help me. I now know that a

caring, experienced therapist is better than just someone who has had a similar

experience. Another thing to be careful with in choosing a therapist that has a

BPD child, and something I am always aware of, is that my experience is not

necessarily your experience. What may work for me and my child, may not work

for you. So be sure, when you pre-interview a therapist that they are trained

and experienced in many methods (what we call modalities) of theraputic

assistance with BPD's.

Theresa