Re: A question about carbs (fats/proteins etc)

[Guest guest]

BUT...Heidi and I cannot EAT that way...we have to keep our fat grams

in the 30 gms or fewer ballpark to keep our pancreases happy...I am

terribly frustrated like Heidi is trying to figure out just what I

CAN eat...I too am always hungry...I lost 10 pounds the first few

weeks...not that I can't afford to lose some, but I hadn't planned it

this way......

I went to a nutitionist, but that was a year and a half ago when I

was still diagnosed as glucose intolerant/insulin resistant. I have

asked my provider to request the diabetes class for me so I can

attend that...now that I'm a diabetic...

I don't think my pancreas can handle that much protein....and I know

without a doubt that I cannot take in that amount of fat (I have a

cholesterol and triglyceride problem which is what caused my

pancreatitis in the first place)

I also need to clarify something...every bite we take into our bodies

is converted into glucose...I have heard at least two of you say fat

doesn't affect the sugar readings, but that can't be true...maybe not

the ones taken at 1 and a half or 2 hours, but I was told the fat

converts to sugar at about 5 hours......

It is all so overwhelming....I ordered Dr Bernstein's book from the

library...it's on a hold list but there are only two other persons

ahead of me so it shouldn't take too long...they don't let you renew

the book when there's a hold on it.

Talk to you guys later...

Jeannine

> http://www.diabetes-normalsugars.com/ Dr. Bernstein's site

>

> http://atkinscenter.com/ Atkins site

>

> I do low carb - no more than 30 carbs per day, so to me 203/day is

> high-carb. But eating low-carb means eating fat and protein, a

lot. I > suggest you study the diets at these two sites, maybe try

one for awhile > and see if it helps your bgs. At the very least,

please try cutting out > the white stuff - rice, potatoes, bread,

pasta, all sweets - and see > what happens. I really don't miss that

stuff since I had a porterhouse > steak and green beans for lunch,

chicken salad with *real* dressing for > dinner, eggs and cheese for

breakfast and ended the day with bg of 110.

> When I was dx'd the bg was a little over 300 (November 1). But I

also > take oral meds, so it's not all due to the diet, but when I

eat too many > carbs the bgs go way up. Oh, yeah, I am not hungry.

The fat intake > does not contribute to blood sugar counts but sure

tastes good. I'm > also losing about 5 lbs./mo, and have 11 lbs. to

go to goal.

> > CarolR

>

[Guest guest]

Ok, I don't have that pancreas problem, obviously, so lc-ing is really

good for ME, maybe not you. What really keeps me going, tho, is that

all my numbers have come down dramatically since November when I started

lc - triglycerides, cholesterol, blood pressure, A1c. So at this point

weight loss is just ONE of the reasons I intend to stay low-carb. But,

Heidi and Jeannine, I'm not touting the lc way. My original post was

only in response to a question about how many carbs constitute a high or

low carb diet. I am in no position to tell anyone else what they

" should " do, and certainly did not mean my post to sound that way. I

apologize if it did.

CarolR

fmmama1993 wrote:

> BUT...Heidi and I cannot EAT that way...we have to keep our fat grams

> in the 30 gms or fewer ballpark

[Guest guest]

Jeannine wrote:

<< every bite we take into our bodies is converted into glucose...I

have heard at least two of you say fat doesn't affect the sugar

readings, but that can't be true...maybe not the ones taken at 1 and

a half or 2 hours, but I was told the fat converts to sugar at about

5 hours >>

Oh, Jeannine, someone has badly misinformed you. Fat doesn't spike

the glucose at all. In fact, it blunts it, turning a tepee-shaped

glucose spike into a breadloaf shape.

Susie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/18/2003 5:12:21 PM Central Standard Time,

duNord@... writes:

> Jo in Minnesota

>

I would miss you Jo

Ressy

[Guest guest]

Bruce Alan :

<< I know that quite well. Potato=poison. >>

When I dug into the numbers, I was stunned by how truly BAD some of

these " innocent " " healthy " foods are for us! I keep offering the

Numbers because I want to help all diabetics, especially those newly

diagnosed (as I know you do, Bruce), and also because I don't want

diabetics to get intimidated and discouraged when they are told that

the *only* way to determine which foods are okay for them is become

human pincushions. Here are some numbers:

Pancakes (Australia) have a Glycemic Load of 39

Jasmine rice (Thailand) has a GL of 46

various rices (Australia) have GL's of 36-40

instant rice (Australia) has a GL of 36

dried dates (Australia) have a GL of 42

People give personal anecdotal comments, or they make general

statements (such-and-such a food is " high " or " okay " ) because they

don't have access to the numbers, or they are too busy to look them

up. Often, the response is to tell the inquirer to test and test, and

record and record. That may work for the folks who are admittedly

obsessive, and who have great insurance, and cooperative doctors, and

numb fingers. But my fingers are very sensitive, and so my approach

is to trust the experience of a large number of diabetics, in a

controlled environment. I think offering actual test results is

helpful.

Susie

P.S. low-fat vanilla ice cream (Australia) has a GL of 3

premium French vanilla ice cream (Australia) has a GL of 3

full-fat ice cream (Italy, Sweden, Italy, Australia, Canada, USA) has

a GL of 3

grapefruits (Canada) have a GL of 3

oranges (Denmark, South Africa) have a GL of 3

peaches (canned, in natural juice, Australia) have a GL of 3

pears (Canada) have a GL of 3

plums (Canada) have a GL of 3

strawberries (Australia) have a GL of 1!!

[Guest guest]

Jo in MN wrote:

<< Jo in MN wrote:

<< I am officially resigning from the Susie Ottercritterx list due to

the endless snide comments when someone makes an error. Do you

realize that about only three people post on this list these days?

I'm entitled to my opinion too, but I am sure Susie would find some

error in it somewhere so I will take it elsewhere. >>

I just checked. In the past week 31 people posted to this group. We

have 674 members. Bruce and I had what I thought was a civil, if

spirited, exchange. I hope he and I are still friends. I certainly

feel that way. I just got thanked in another group for my uplifting

comments. I wish you didn't resent me so much you feel you have to

leave this group. It's an excellent collection of knowledgeable,

supportive people, many of whom have been together for years.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Hoo Boy...

I'm going to respond to this one openly:

Jo,

I'm sorry to see you go. Even though you don't as frequently as some

others, I always appreciate what you have to say. If you change your mind,

I'll be glad to see you back!

Susie,

I've told you many times how much I appreciate your knowledge and your

willingness to search out answers for others. You put in a great deal of

time and have been extraordinarily helpful to me and to others. I am glad

that you are a part of our group. I also need to say, as I've said to you

privately before, you need to be more careful when you have a disagreement

with someone. I too felt that your part of the exchange below was

unnecessarily rude and curt. Please work as hard on providing " soft

answers " as you do on providing " correct answers. " None of us are perfect.

We all make mistakes from time to time. We all deserve the benefit of the

doubt. This started today when you " spoke for " Bruce. You could have just

as easily posted your comments on sugar/starch/carbs in a less

confrontational manner, without " correcting " Bruce in the process. I share

your view that we don't want newcomers to be led astray by misinformation.

I also don't want them to be driven away by misunderstandings.

Bruce,

This is for you and any one else who feels that they have been openly

" challenged " or misrepresented or misunderstood. Please count to 10 and

then 10 again if necessary before you start typing. Who is right and who is

wrong gets lost VERY QUICKLY when responses start getting edgy, snippy,

rude, etc. We run this group with a great deal of openness and flexibility.

I purposely stay out of some heated exchanges in hopes that they will die

down quickly of their own accord. When necessary, I am not the least bit

timid about writing someone privately to express my concerns. Nor am I

timid about moderating members when necessary. Having said that though,

what I do hope for is that we can all excel at being pleasant with one

another and being gracious when someone " goofs up. "

I hope you will all take these comments into consideration.

Rick

At 05:09 PM 3/18/2003, you wrote:

>Hello all:

>

>I am officially resigning from the Susie Ottercritterx list due to the

>endless snide comments when someone makes an error.

>

>Do you realize that about only three people post on this list these days?

>

>I'm entitled to my opinion too, but I am sure Susie would find some error

>in it somewhere so I will take it elsewhere.

>

>Jo in Minnesota

>

>

>

>

>At 05:06 PM 3/18/03 -0500, you wrote:

> >Hey, you are entitled to your opinion, derived from your own experience

>and research. There's a lot of nonsense on this list--and others, you

>wouldn't believe some of the sugary, starchy recs. I've seen--and winnowing

>out the wheat from the chaff is sometimes difficult.

> > Re: A question about carbs (fats/proteins etc)

> >

> >

> > Dear Bruce,

> >

> > I trust the intelligence of listmates to realize that what you wrote

> > doesn't hold water. We have to look at net carbohydrate counts and

> > Glycemic Loads for the facts, and not just one person's anecdotal

> > comments. We have an obligation to new members to provide them with

> > the facts, and I don't hesitate to speak up when I read something

> > that looks to me like hooey.

> >

> > Susie

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Excellent post, Rick! I admit I have a pugnacious personality, and

online communications leave a lot to be desired. And sometimes my

personal hassles show up in my posts, I think. (I've been in a lot of

pain for over two months with this bum knee.) I would hate to see Jo

in MN go. Her input is welcome. And I apologize publicly if I

offended Bruce, who is an enthusiastic and helpful member of the

group, and to any others I have offended.

Susie (skulking away)

[Guest guest]

I didn't say a spike, but in order for our bodies to use the food we

eat it has to be converted into glucose....

>

> << every bite we take into our bodies is converted into glucose...I

> have heard at least two of you say fat doesn't affect the sugar

> readings, but that can't be true...maybe not the ones taken at 1

and

> a half or 2 hours, but I was told the fat converts to sugar at

about

> 5 hours >>

>

> Oh, Jeannine, someone has badly misinformed you. Fat doesn't spike

> the glucose at all. In fact, it blunts it, turning a tepee-shaped

> glucose spike into a breadloaf shape.

>

> Susie

[Guest guest]

the pancreas has two very important and very different functions...

releasing insulin and releasing the digestive enzymes. Lipase breaks

down fat, then there's amylase and protease (pro-tee-ace) and others

I don't remember (heidi probably has a better handle on this than I

do). When you eat a big meal and get a belly ache, especially on the

left side with " bloating " and gas pains, that's probably your

pancreas complaining...I take digestive enzymes when I eat so my panc

doesn't have to work so hard.

My triglcerides have been in the stupid range of five to ten THOUSAND

.....and my cholesterol levels 500-900...and when the triglycerides

get so high (anything over 1000) they can not only cause pancreatitis

they actually MASK the pancreatitis by making the amylase and lipase

levels falsely normal !

I have what the doctors call " Syndrome X " ...but I prefer the other

name " PolysCystic Ovarian Syndrome " ...it's a whole constellation of

things...but the elevated lipids is part of it and the glucose

intolerance/Insulin Resistance giving us a 4 times greater chance of

developing diabetes...it's the leading cause of infertility (I was

told from the time I was 16 I wouldn't have any children since I

didn't ovulate even with twice the amount of Clomid, a fertility drug

given to " force " ovulation...but I do have one child, but that was

after losing at least four pregnancies at 4-6 weeks...) The doctor

told me I had elevated levels of testosterone which interfered with

the implantation of the fertilized egg...well the testosterone is

elevated because of the cysts on the ovaries...it's a big circle.

So the pancreatitis is even related in a round about way since my

lipids were insane...this was while on three times the normal levels

of Lopid (Gemfibrozil) and Pravastatin....

So you are correct in the one sense that they are releted, but even

with diet control, my levels get in the stupid range !

BTW, My doctors are happy with my HDL and LDL levels as they are

where they are supposed to be.

And the research will show that 10-15% of the cases of pancreatitis

are caused by elevated TGs. Heidi will have more data on this, but

there are dozens of causes...ones even I never heard of before

joining the panc list on yahoogroups...A person with Cystic Fibrosis

is at risk, there are genetic causes, most people automatically think

of alcohol and while it is a leading cause, it is certainly not the

only one. I have a friend who nearly died from pancreatitis that

came from gallstones in the pancreatic duct and my sister two years

ago was a very sick little girl with the same thing...and neither of

these two people drink. I am nearly a non-drinker...fewer than a

dozen drinks a year.....

Well...I didn't mean to ramble on so....but since we're all in the

learning mode here....

Jeannine

Dx'd Jan 2003, Type 2

You mention elevated cholesterol

> and triglycerides. Those are the very hallmarks of diabetes that so

> many of us have experienced! I have lowered my triglycerides from

650 > to 99, and increased my (healthy) HDL from 30 to 78, by

lowering my > carbohydrate intake, with no medicines.

>

> Yes, I have heard that elevated triglycerides can " cause "

> pancreatitis, but I have to wonder ... maybe elevated triglycerides

> and pancreatitis and diabetes are just all part of the same

package: > an intolerance of high carbohydrate intake. Why do fats

and proteins > aggravate pancreatitis? From what I know about

diabetes, our > pancreases are stressed when we eat carbohydrates.

>

> Susie

[Guest guest]

If I've got my facts straight, a diabetic friend told me we *should*

eat a small snack before bedtime because the liver is required to

keep enough sugar in our bloodstream to feed the brain even as we

sleep...the problem is the liver just " dumps " glucose without rhyme

or reason and that can give us elevated readings in the morning.

This made more sense to me than anything the dietician tried to

explain to me.

Carbs in general can elevate the triglycerides...there is also a

faulty gene leading to elev TG's without direct relation to diet...my

case, for instance....

Hope this helps...sorry about all your other health issues...it's

never easy is it? I also deal with fibromyalgia ! <sigh>

Jeannine

> Iam new at this ...since Sept 2002.. had quad bypass

> and stoke in Aug 2002... was then diagnosed as T2.

>

> I struggle everyday with B/G, I am trying to do it

> with exercise, meds and diet. My first reading was

> 327 in Sept.. now for the last 30 day average is 128.

> I can not understand why my B/G is so high in the

> morning.. even when I fast .. it will be in the 150

> range. Last night.. supper @ 7 PM.. no snacks .. bed

> time (10 pm) was 88... then @ 6 am. was 154.

> My triglceride level is high (over 400) and i can't

> figure out why.. I haven't used alcohol in over 20

> years and never eat candy. Iam told these are the 2

> big culprits... so any advice is helpfull.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> -----Original Message-----

> From: fmmama1993

>

> I didn't say a spike, but in order for our bodies to use the food we

> eat it has to be converted into glucose....

This is not quite true. All carbs (except for dietary fiber) are converted

to glucose. About 1/2 of the protein we eat is converted to glucose, but it

takes a lot more time. Fats (except for very small amounts of some

components) are not converted to glucose.

Most of the cells in our bodies can use two sources of energy -- glucose and

ketones. Fats are converted to ketones and used for energy in this form.

When our bodies are using fats (ketones) as a major energy source, some

ketones are excreted in our urine to maintain a desirable acid/base balance.

That's why very low carb diets are called " ketogenic. " Glucose needs

insulin in order to be used for energy. Ketones do not need insulin, so

those of us with insulin production limitations (i.e., diabetics) often find

we can do quite well with higher fat and very low carb diets.

Some cells do need glucose, but the conversion of protein to glucose can

meet these needs; therefore, it is not really necessary to eat carbs (other

than fiber which is not digested).

Tom the Actuary