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Yesterday my 18 year old BP grandson called and asked me if I would buy him

some clothes for his 4th job in 7 months. Of course, I didn't refuse. He

was so nice to me. I took him to the store and he didn't curse and he wasn't

obnoxious. He had previously asked me if he could live with us while the

friend he is living with went with his parents to Puerto Rico. Of course, we

said he could stay for the week. I guess I should have known what was coming

next. Tonight he called and asked if he could move back in for the 4th time

since October. He said he would go to counseling - I didn't answer him. I

know I should say " no " but I can't bring myself to do that. My husband said

he could come back if he went for counseling. I don't know what to do.

In order for him to get the help he needs, he needs a stable envirnonment.

He can't do it alone.

Ann

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Hi Ann,

This is a tough one. I am a Grandmother too, even though my little one is only

3 yo.

Sometimes I look at him and say I wonder what his life will be like, and could I

be tough.

Grandchildren are special to us, arn't they.

You have to do what your heart tells you to do. Just keep a few things in mind.

's

past history from what I have read, does not show a good track record for

sticking with

what he says. I like to believe in my heart that he wants to change. You and I

both know change is not easy. It requires consistancy and self discipline.

Have you and your hubby sought counsel for yourselves on this matter? You

mentioned this would be 's 4 move back with you since October. Have you

looked at other options for ? Explaining to your goal is to see

him happy and successful. It may mean to look at other options while he is

going to therapy. Then you have a chance to see if he is able to be consistant.

Has had a good medical checkup with a doctor latley?

Ann, I know you and your husband love very much. But, we ( I mean me,

too)

can't take the world on our shoulders. We have to give responsability back to

the owner, and assist with an open hand. That's not easy, cause we have hearts.

Whatever you decide to do will not be easy. I wish you and your hubby the very

best.

I hope will decide for himself a better way of living. Peace and Love.

Katy

From: Ann2079@...

Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 8:18 PM

To: wtoparentsofbps

Subject: Re: 's Grandma

Yesterday my 18 year old BP grandson called and asked me if I would buy him

some clothes for his 4th job in 7 months. Of course, I didn't refuse. He

was so nice to me. I took him to the store and he didn't curse and he wasn't

obnoxious. He had previously asked me if he could live with us while the

friend he is living with went with his parents to Puerto Rico. Of course, we

said he could stay for the week. I guess I should have known what was coming

next. Tonight he called and asked if he could move back in for the 4th time

since October. He said he would go to counseling - I didn't answer him. I

know I should say " no " but I can't bring myself to do that. My husband said

he could come back if he went for counseling. I don't know what to do.

In order for him to get the help he needs, he needs a stable envirnonment.

He can't do it alone.

Ann

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Ann, you may already know all of this but just in case, I'll tell you

a little bit about our story.

My 19 yo daughter and myself are estranged. I chose this

estrangement and I don't need to go into all the reasons in this post

(I'm sure you can imagine). About this time last year, my daughter

had been living w/her g'ma, who *rescued* her, and put K up in her

home and then g'ma (my mil) and myself began to search out all

available opportunities and avenues for my daughter (for myself this

was yet another exhaustive search that I knew would ultimately prove

fruitless - my daughter's lack of compliance). My K's g'ma however,

up until K lived there for about 4 mos. time - it was very much not a

fruitless search. Her opinion, was mostly that, if we could keep

things on the positive note and keep things in an upbeat manner and

not be down and out and work to search out for K the things she needs

*this time K, will work to improve - I just know she will*. So, we

went about doing just that.

It took about 4 or 5 mos. for g'ma to see that any and all

opportunities that we found for K, they were all hopeless.....as K

would find a way to undo everything sought out that would benefit

her. K was raging regularly, not taking her meds consistently, not

participatory in therapy that was available to her, not attending the

GED program that had been put in place for her ..... basically not

utilizing any of the many services and support structures that had

been sought out to help her. G'ma was sick of it and it was fast

ruining g'ma's mental health too. G'ma then began to lean on me to

take K back into my home. Something, I wouldn't even consider. G'ma

then began requesting that I take K off her hands on long weekends,

something I did do (against my wishes). It then became evident that

K needed to be placed in a setting (group home) where the support

services would be enormous (compliance would also be a requirement).

We sought out those type settings for her and it took several weeks

to put it all together and we were finally successful in doing so.

We had her placed - about this time last year in the first of (now

several group homes later) many group homes. G'ma said at that time

that K had lived there for the very last time. G'ma had come to the

realization that while she can offer for K, love and support, a roof

over her head and a warm bed to sleep in and food to eat, she can't

offer the many, many things that K needs and she certainly can't

compromise her health and emotional well being the way she did before.

G'ma now realizes this.

Since that time, as I said before, K has been in numerous group

homes. Reason being, she doesn't comply (or hasn't in the past)

w/the many rules and regs of the differing settings and has been

invited to vacate each and every one. I stepped off of the whole

issue back around the end of October. Had been trying to remain a

part of K's life (her chaotic, temultuous existence) if only from a

distance. I could no longer do so - was damaging my mental health to

remain a part of her life.

K's g'ma, once I stepped back .... has stepped in, in a big way.

Some of the things that come to mind that g'ma has stepped in to do:

K (by this time living in the 3rd of group home placements)

called g'ma and said that she was having to make a hasty exit

(had made arrangements to live w/a friend). K had apparently

pulled a knife on another tennant at this group home and so was

going to be evicted. G'ma went over and helped to move K's

things to this friend's home and she falsified for K (to the

staff) what K's forwarding address would be.

K was living w/this *friend* for approximately one month's

time and called her g'ma at 4 a.m. to tell her the friend had

kicked her out and that she had no where to live. G'ma went

and picked her up and placed K in her home, while she sought

out another group home setting. An endeavor that I now find

out took approximately a month to do.

K's case manager (a woman K referred to as a real b*tch) was

ready to jump ship on the whole case. She was ready to have

K committed to the state psychiatric hospital. K was abusing

drugs, prostituting, abusing alcohol and the other ... non-

compliance issues. G'ma jumped on board and worked to

facilitate a better working arrangement between herself, the

case manager and K.

G'ma and the case manager, were able to successfully have K

placed in another group setting just before xmas.

Since that time there have been numerous issues, all relating

to the other occupants of this group home or the staff, etc.

G'ma has been on board and striving to manage those situations

to the best of her ability.

G'ma has had K over every weekend (for long weekends), every

weekend that she is available to have K over to her house. G'ma

tells me that she feels a need to show K that she is loved

and supported and also she feels a need to get K out of these

hellhole group homes and all the *crazies* that live there, as

much as is humanly possible. All while realizing K cannot

live w/her.

G'ma helped facilitate (as of a week or so ago) another move

to another group home setting. One g'ma feels is more

suitable. Not as many tennants and certainly not as many

folks in this newest group home that are so *out there*, as

she describes.

G'ma has sent off for the paperwork to help K to be able

to get a correspondence type high school diplomma. They

will be working on that on the weekends K visits g'ma.

I site these examples to show you what this particular g'ma has done

as far as her participation in K's life. I'm sure it's much the

same, she loves her g'daughter and of course she wants to do what she

can to help her, if that's possible. G'ma tells me that she is no

fool, she realizes K will play everyone in her life, for all it's

worth and she realizes that there may come a day when she too has to

back away and not help K. She has told K, apparently, that as long

as K will consistently take her medication, be available for

appropriate appts. set on her behalf, stay away from

drugs/alcohol/prostitution - then she will agree to be a part of K's

life but when those terms are no longer being met - she will step

back from K's life.

So, take from this what you will.

Debbie S

> Yesterday my 18 year old BP grandson called and asked me if I would

buy him

> some clothes for his 4th job in 7 months. Of course, I didn't

refuse. He

> was so nice to me. I took him to the store and he didn't curse and

he wasn't

> obnoxious. He had previously asked me if he could live with us

while the

> friend he is living with went with his parents to Puerto Rico. Of

course, we

> said he could stay for the week. I guess I should have known what

was coming

> next. Tonight he called and asked if he could move back in for the

4th time

> since October. He said he would go to counseling - I didn't answer

him. I

> know I should say " no " but I can't bring myself to do that. My

husband said

> he could come back if he went for counseling. I don't know what to

do.

> In order for him to get the help he needs, he needs a stable

envirnonment.

> He can't do it alone.

>

> Ann

>

>

>

>

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Ann,

I'm sorry you and your daughter have to go through this. must really be

hurting inside. These PD they affect us all don't they. Maybe you can find out

what kind of public assisstance is out there. Have you tried the NAMI meetings,

they seem to have a lot of contacts.

Katy

's Grandma

Thanks for the input Katy. Last night we heard from and he said he

just beat some guy up and his eye was bleeding and a car window was broken.

I told him that we couldn't deal with his out-of-control behavior and that he

could not live here. Don't know where he will go. My heart is breaking and

I'm so worried. He doesn't have many options out there. He doesn't want to

help himself (we've suggested he go to an inpatient facility). He won't take

medication. He's just a mess. The doctor has put me on Paxil and my

daughter is also on a antidepressant. I am just sick over this.

Ann

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Debbie

Since my grandson was not in the juvinile system (he was at a private

residential treatment facility, which I paid half the tuition for and the

school district paid half, obviously it didn't work), he has never been in

our county system. He has not seen a psychiatrist except when he was

hospitalized at our county hospital and by a private psychiatrist for about 5

minutes (he walked out). Before he went the residential treatment facility

(he spent 3 years there and they have no after care), he went to a private

psychiatrist who hasn't seen him in 4 years. So he is definitely not in the

system. My feeling iis that he would have to , with our help of course,

reach out to get help in the system and I don't think he would do that. He

has never taken meds on a continual basis as the RTF did not administer meds

(another mistake).

Ann

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Ann, hoping your community is much like mine. You may have to do

what we've had to. My daughter couldn't live w/us any longer (too

dangerous - or potentially so). She couldn't live w/her g'ma any

longer (ruining her health - emotionally speaking). Can't live w/my

mom (she accused mom's husband of *inappropriate touching*). Those

are the only options K had, locally. We have siblings (me and my

husband) that live out of town, but none of them are willing to offer

up their home to K, for obvious reasons.

Is your son part of the community mental health system. We got my

daughter a case manager when she turned 18 (she had been in the juvy

system prior, juvy mental health system - for some services, not a

lot but some). That case manager worked to get K in touch w/Voc

Rehab services, a psychiatrist and meds thereof, group and individual

therapy services and more importantly.....when it became apparent

that K had nowhere to live any longer, worked to facilitate a group

home living arrangement for K. Mind you K too has never given any

indication she wants to be *compliant* w/any of the above services

available to her, never. The first of the many group homes she's

been in, those services were on-site and available pretty much 24/7.

K didn't make use of said services and in fact bucked the system as

much as possible, was required to vacate. The case manager and

myself then worked to get her into a 2nd group home setting that was

equally as supportive as far as services (this, after K had a small

stint of living in the streets). In the 2nd home, much the

same....wouldn't avail herself of said services. Since that time

she's been in other group homes - most of which are absolutely

deploreable. The group homes she now finds herself in are known as

ALF's (Adult Living Facilities). The presumption being - the support

services that have been offered to her (and others in these ALF's)

are obviously of no use, the patient is either unwilling/unable to

avail themselves of same, so they will provide a roof over there head

and a warm meal 3x daily and that's about it. Services are still at

her disposal, but not readily handy like they were at the prior

settings.

Can you see if your community has a mental health resource center

such as what I'm describing above. Your son will likely not *get

w/the program* either, but at least you can rest assured you've done

what you can to be sure he has a bed to sleep in and 3 warm meals a

day, if he cares to avail himself of any of it.

Debbie S

> Debbie

>

> Thanks for responding. My daughter, although she speaks to him on

the phone

> and sees him occasionally, usually at my home, does not see him on

a regular

> basis because she has an order of protection and is also afraid to

be alone

> with him as he has threatened her. He has never threatened us

although he

> has called us names. My biggest fear is that he will be homeless

if I don't

> take him in but I also know that we cannot live with him. He is

out of

> control, abusive, ungrateful and narcisstic. He says he will

comply with

> our rules and regulations (which include therapy and medication)

but then he

> never does. On Christmas Eve he had an altercation with my son and

now my

> son does not want to be in his presence. I am afraid to say " no,

you cannot

> live here " because where will he go? I am tormented by the idea

that he will

> be on the street.

>

> Ann

>

>

>

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Ann,

Yes that is going to be a problem for you guys. My daughter (as a

minor and in the juvy mental health system) only received the

services of a behavior mod specialist. She didn't qualify for any of

their other numerous services, because we are privately insured and

middle class (income).

The only requirement to get her *into the system* was a dx of a

mental health disorder. That would, I assume, be a requirement to

get your g'son into the system also. If he isn't compliant enough to

even seek the services .... then obviously there's no dx anywhere.

Can you, even if you allow him to come live with you for a short

stint, insist that he get in to see a psychiatrist for eval and then

get rx'd meds (knowing he probably won't follow through enough to

take the meds and go to therapy, etc.). But, at least if he lives

with you long enough to comply w/a request to get in to see a psyc

doc, that'd give you the much needed dx - to at least get him into

the system. Is that an option at all?

I know this is the very things I've heard suggested at NAMI support

group meetings where this issue has arisen, numerous times, w/other

folks looking for support.

Debbie S

> Debbie

>

> Since my grandson was not in the juvinile system (he was at a

private

> residential treatment facility, which I paid half the tuition for

and the

> school district paid half, obviously it didn't work), he has never

been in

> our county system. He has not seen a psychiatrist except when he

was

> hospitalized at our county hospital and by a private psychiatrist

for about 5

> minutes (he walked out). Before he went the residential treatment

facility

> (he spent 3 years there and they have no after care), he went to a

private

> psychiatrist who hasn't seen him in 4 years. So he is definitely

not in the

> system. My feeling iis that he would have to , with our help of

course,

> reach out to get help in the system and I don't think he would do

that. He

> has never taken meds on a continual basis as the RTF did not

administer meds

> (another mistake).

>

> Ann

>

>

>

>

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Debbie

You reminded me that my grandson does have a dx from the medical center where

he was sent by the court for an evaluation. Maybe that would work. He has

been extremely nice to us the past few days - but he wants to stay here. He

has asked if he could stay just 3 days a week because his second job is near

us and he needs a ride (he doesn't have a car). Although I don't think the

job will last long enough for us to worry about it. (He's had 7 jobs in 7

months.) I doubt he will be able to be " nice " too much longer either.

Ann

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