Re: Please leave feedback on this problem

[Guest guest]

Turtle, so sorry for your situation.

This is a decision you really need to make for yourself.

But IMHO, the quality of life has to be considered too. It sounds unlikely

that your mother would have a very good quality of life should should the DNR

(do not resuscitate) order not be taken. (I'm putting it very gently here).

If I were you, I'd follow the suggestion of the doctors.

Vicki

In a message dated 02/25/2003 7:59:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time,

turtle_04987@... writes:

> My dad wants us all to vote.Me,my brother and sister,My

> maternal uncles and aunts,on weather he should sign a donot

> resesitate rule.( which all 8 of my mothers current doctors are

> pushing for ) What would you do ? Turtle

>

>

[Guest guest]

What a terribly traumatic situation for you and your family, especially your

father. Ultimately it's his decision to make. Do you have a family priest

or minister who might be able to help him? It might also be helpful to him

to talk to a long time friend - someone who is not a relative, if there is

someone he's really close to. I wish you and your family peace and harmony

whatever decision comes about.

CarolR

[Guest guest]

Turtle

This is so hard to deal with. But in some ways you have already found your

answer - you say you know what your mother would want. Each person involved

has to vote the way they think and according to what they can live with.

Nature often takes over and the doctors don't have to make the decision.

I feel for you very deeply. I know how this can divide families. Your dad

needs to know that whatever he does you'll be there for him - as you have

been.

My thoughts are with you

Bea

[Guest guest]

> What a terribly traumatic situation for you and your family,

especially your

> father. Ultimately it's his decision to make. Do you have a

family priest

> or minister who might be able to help him? It might also be

helpful to him

> to talk to a long time friend - someone who is not a relative, if

there is

> someone he's really close to. I wish you and your family peace and

harmony

> whatever decision comes about.

>

> Caro

Thank you,carol,for your kind words.

No,There are no holy people for him to talk to,he is an

Penobscot indian,who hasent had contact with the tribal elders sience

I was a little kid,at least 25 years ago. I like your suggestion of

him telling a close friend whats going on and asking their opinion,a

third party to this mess would offer a new veiw I think,

I,just got off the phone with my own,weeping 21 year old.As hard

as this is for me,it seems to be even harder for the kids.

I hate diabetes.It is such a horrible,almost evil disease.

Peace,never mind harmony,seems a bit distant now.

All the best,to you

Turtle

[Guest guest]

> Turtle

> This is so hard to deal with. But in some ways you have already

found your

> answer - you say you know what your mother would want. Each person

involved

> has to vote the way they think and according to what they can live

with.

> Nature often takes over and the doctors don't have to make the

decision.

>

> I feel for you very deeply. I know how this can divide families.

Your dad

> needs to know that whatever he does you'll be there for him - as

you have

> been.

>

> My thoughts are with you

> Bea,

Your right.I do feel that I know what my mom would

want,it's just getting that point across to the others without

sounding cold hearted that is the problem.They should all take a long

tour of a nursing home,I think. I would not wish this onto my worst

enemy.

Thank you for you words of support,

Turtle

> Bea

[Guest guest]

Turtle, my most sincere sympathy to you and all your family. A

family circle is one that opens to take in new members but also

closes as when you step closer together to fill in a gap. Whatever

happens, I am sure you and your family will have the strength to see

it through.

from Kay.

> Hello,All,

> I ,myself,donot have diabetes,but my Mom does,and she is near

> death right now.

> She has been an insuline dependant diabetic for 9 years.Now

> she has kidney failure,they only work at 10 % ,but because of her

> age,63,the docs dont even want to consider transplant.

[Guest guest]

Turtle, my heart goes out to you and your family.

A few things about your message call out to me. You said that your father

doesn't understand some things the doctors are telling him. If they're

being ambivalent, that needs to be cleared up immediately. If they're using

medical jargon or some other technical language that he's not familiar with,

they need to be told so that Dad can make a truly informed decision. No one

should have to wonder what the docs mean.

Next, you said Dad wants you (the family) to vote. Is he willing to do

whatever the group decides, or does he kind of know what he wants to do, and

is just seeing if it will be supported by the family? Ultimately, it is his

decision. That's a lot of weight to bear. Make sure he knows that no

matter what he decides, you'll be there for both of them.

Finally, you said that you think you know what Mom would want. To me,

that's the most important thing. Have you talked with Dad about what he

thinks Mom would want, or only about what he wants? It will be a very hard

talk, but if he thinks what you think, it may be easier for him to sign the

order.

It sounds like the cardiac arrest was sudden. If the doctors think there's

a little time, it may be that seeing her in this state of discomfort and

disorientation will help your father make his decision.

Are you certain you couldn't contact one of the elders to come? Is Mom also

a Penobscot Indian? Might she have a religious leader who would be willing

to come? Sometimes we just need to be reminded (if it's what we believed to

begin with) that death is not necessarily the terrible thing we think it

might be.

Robin G.

> "

>Reply-To: diabetes_int >

>Hello,All,

> I ,myself,donot have diabetes,but my Mom does,and she is near

>death right now.

> She has been an insuline dependant diabetic for 9 years.Now

>she has kidney failure,they only work at 10 % ,but because of her

>age,63,the docs dont even want to consider transplant.She developed

>edemia,about 8 months ago,docs siad it was in cahoots with the

>diabetes.The edemia caused alot of damage to her lungs,heart,and

>body ,overall.She has been on 3 x a week dialysis.

> Three weeks ago,she had a cardiac arrest while she

>was at the dialysis clinic because her blood pressure way too low and

>they could not take her off of the machine quickly enough.

> Now,she is at Boston General Hospital with

>generalized brain damage,and our family has become devided on what to

>do.

> Half of us want my father to at least consider a do not

>resesitate rule.Because if she has another heart attack,her brain

>will be further damaged.the other half would let her become a

>vedgetable in a nursing home,as long as the breathing machines keep

>her alive.She,sadly,never had a living will in place before this

>happened.My dad is confused by the doctors wording,and is unwilling

>to let go of her.I can understand his wanting to at least give her

>time to maybe recouperate.

> My family,and I,husband,kids,were with my dad for 7 days

>after the initial cardiac arrest.I saw my mother every other day,took

>turns with my brother to tend to our kids.During that time,I do not

>think my mother even recognized me.Her body was/is in constant

>spasms,and now,the hospital keeps her in restraints.It is painfull to

>watch.

> Question. I love my mother,she is/was a very sweet

>woman,very kind at heart.giving.But I believe she would not want this

>existance.I love my dad,very intelligent,strong,but now,seems so

>desparate and confused,I can only be support for him.

> My dad wants us all to vote.Me,my brother and sister,My

>maternal uncles and aunts,on weather he should sign a donot

>resesitate rule.( which all 8 of my mothers current doctors are

>pushing for ) What would you do ? Turtle

>

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[Guest guest]

Dear Turtle,

I couldn't respond right away because your post had me sobbing. I'm

still sobbing. Please urge your family to let your mother go as soon

as possible. She has no chance of recovery. She has no life. There is

no point in putting her or your family through more agony. She can't

recover. Please reassure your father that he is doing what your

mother would want, if she could speak. We don't want to be a burden

on our families. It's your mom's time to go. Allowing that is an act

of love. When you release her from her suffering, please celebrate!

That is how we let my mom go ... a gathering around her bed, with a

joyful singing of her favorite songs.

Please keep writing to us. I want to hear how you and your family

cope with this very sad loss. We diabetics keep crossing our fingers,

hoping we can dodge the bullet, but we all grieve each time we hear

about the loss of one of our fellow travelers.

My love to your family,

Susie in Arizona (still weeping)

[Guest guest]

I missed the original post in this thread... but I need to share this...

Last July my mother fell and broke her hip. She had dementia and one of us

was with her every single minute. She had the surgery to replace the broken

bone and during the surgery sustained a small cut on her tailbone. We put

her in a nursing home for rehab and my Dad, brother, daughter & I took turns

staying with her 24/7. None of us has any medical background, but Mom felt

safe with one of us there.

The staff at the nursing home, with one or two exceptions, was lazy,

careless and incompetent. (For those of you in the Denver Metro area, stay

away from Alpine Care Center!) The small cut on her tailbone became a life

threatning wound. She was in the nursing home one day shy of two weeks.

The specialist that the surgon sent us to gave us three choices: 1) Leave

her alone and she would die. 2) Debraid the wound and leave it open, she

would get another infection and she would die. 3) Debraid and have a

surgical flap covering, insert a feeding tube for proper nutrition (she had

problems swallowing) and pray. Most flaps reject within a two year period.

She ended up back in the hospital for the debraidment, flap and tube.

After the surgery the specialist sent her to Life Care Center. Again, one

of us was with her 24/7 and her care was exemplary. From the janitor to the

specialists they were wonderful!

In late September she started to hemorrhage and the only way to stop it was

another surgery to identify where it was coming from. At that point we

said, " Enough! " On September 25th we took Mom home on hospice care. They

gave her two weeks. My daughter quit her job and spent her days with Mom

and Dad. Two of my brothers shared nights and I had evenings and weekends.

The hemorrhaging stopped and Mom started to put on weight. We were keeping

her alive. Most of the time, she didn't know who we were, but she trusted

us and wasn't afraid. On January 31st she died.

Were we wrong to keep her alive the way we did? Probably. You would have

had to know my Mom to understand how hard it was to let her go. She lived

her whole life with the next in mind. She was the only person I have ever

known who walked the talk. She was a textbook wife and mother . Next to

God, she lived for her family. She had to leave us... we couldn't let go.

Even in dying, she was still giving. My daughter is getting her CNA and

will work for the Hospice while getting her RN. It's been almost a month,

and not a day goes by that I don't cry. I know it would have been kinder to

let her go sooner, but I can't regret one minute that we kept her and I know

that we will miss her every day for the rest of our lives. Right now the

loss is still too close and the grief too new but we carry the lessons she

taught and the love she gave over into our own lives... to do anything else

would be to dishonor her memory.

Like I said in the beginning, I missed the start of this thread so I don't

even know if this is relevant.

Rita

Re: Re: Please leave feedback on this problem

> In a message dated 2/26/2003 1:45:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> ottercritter@... writes:

>

> > I couldn't respond right away because your post had me sobbing. I'm

> > still sobbing. Please urge your family to let your mother go as soon

> > as possible. She has no chance of recovery. She has no life. There is

> > no point in putting her or your family through more agony.

[Guest guest]

That's an excellent post, Dee! Don't delay drafting a Living Will

because when the time comes that you need it, you may be in no

condition to sign one. And, in my family's experience with our

parents, it was necessary to give one to the doctor, another to the

hospital, and then provide another one each time they were moved to

another wing. Hospitals, fearing litigation, will keep people alive

using heroic measures, regardless of the hopelessness of the

condition or the pain caused. They will continue this until the

insurance runs out.

Susie

Dee wrote:

<< I personally believe we all choose how and when we are going to

pass away. It is much kinder to all your loved ones to do the living

will and take the responsibility for your own life and death out of

their hands. I think it is a terrible burden and I don't feel

competent to make those kind of decisions for another human being. >>

[Guest guest]

That was a moving post, Rita. Thank you for sharing your loss with

us. We all would like to slip away quietly in our sleep, but modern

medicine often brings us final days or months too ill to leave a

hospital setting. It must have been a comfort to your mom to be

surrounded by family, who made sure her needs were met.

Susie