Re: Do multivitamins cause inflammatioon?

[Guest guest]

forgot to mention the plagues on your spine ain't housing mother theresa..they

are there because of bacterial activity..

>

> Tony,

> I find your theories intriguing, yet cryptic, ambiguous and hard to get to the

specifics in a way the would give us practical help we can use...Can you provide

a more step-by-step procedure of the testing and protocol measures you recommend

for an MS patient to heal.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tony. I would be interested in explorin this, but where would a person

get these cultures done and who would figure out what the bacteria are doing

over time?...I am just a lay person without any particular access or knowledge

to testing my own cultures, etc. I think I would need some sort of doctor or

expert who knew how to do this?

>

>

> You have to find the bacteria in your bloodstream by doing CULTURES, you then

observe it's activity to confirm it's putting out TOXINS, you then attack it

fiercly with antimicrobials that kill it and follow up with more testing to make

sure the job is succesfull.You have to keep cleaning out your body and allow

healing to take place.Remember these Toxins are

[Guest guest]

> You have to find the bacteria in your bloodstream by doing CULTURES, you then

observe it's activity to confirm it's putting out TOXINS, you then attack it

fiercly with antimicrobials that kill it

>

Septicemia is usually a serious, life-threatening condition. Can you tell us

specifically which pathogens you believe can survive in the circulatory system

without killing its host in a matter of days? Thanks,

Crystal

[Guest guest]

Crystal

toxemia, septicemia, bacteremia are conditions very little is known about or

clear testing exists for..It's a hit and hope done with culture bottles, done

over several tries and focused on growing known pathogens..Oppurtunistic

pathogens are frequently ignored and called contaminants, Blood cultures are

basically a testing procedure no-one likes, or uses frequently in medical

circles..

The oppurtunists in and around your body are the culprits in my opinion..You

don't get red cell destruction from a pristine bloodstream...You only get this

from bacteria, and parasites..

> > You have to find the bacteria in your bloodstream by doing CULTURES, you

then observe it's activity to confirm it's putting out TOXINS, you then attack

it fiercly with antimicrobials that kill it

> >

>

> Septicemia is usually a serious, life-threatening condition. Can you tell us

specifically which pathogens you believe can survive in the circulatory system

without killing its host in a matter of days? Thanks,

>

> Crystal

>

[Guest guest]

The problem is with auto immune ilness forums everyone thinks you have some

twisted agenda and I'll just probably get banned for being misunderstood, or

worse still accused of being disrespectfull..... I can;t even help anyone in my

neck of the woods- and it's harmless and I don't want a dime...

not to mention I had links to californian doctors and access to a path lab-

that I had made friends with one of the pathologists over the phone..she

basically would do unusual requests if a doctor asked..

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bianca

It's basically THE RIGHT GROUPS OF ANTIBIOTICS DEPENDING ON WHAT ANTIBIOTIC

SENSITIVITIES THE NASTIES GO DOWN TO..E#veryone would vary here, so testing is

important..Also the importance of not feeding them or stimulating them..So diet

and an environment rich in oxygen and allergy free air...

Your husband may also have some nasty dental work that gives these beasties a

brilliant staging ground to make your bloodstream a sewer....root canals even..

>

>

>

> Hi Tony, after following the latest posts again, what did treatment in your

specific case include? Antibiotics (?), candida preventing diet.... Did you

include anything herbal to rid yourself? I understand that the theory is based

on every individual will have a different treatment or at least in some areas

depending on what bacteria/toxin is wrecking a persons " shop " - correct me if I

am wrong please. Just having an honest interest here and trying to figure out

how to use your info for my husbands advantage. And one more question, which

supplements do you believe are more damaging rather then helping? Any specifics?

Thanks, Bianca

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Crystal

> toxemia, septicemia, bacteremia are conditions very little is known about or

clear testing exists for..It's a hit and hope done with culture bottles, done

over several tries and focused on growing known pathogens..Oppurtunistic

pathogens are frequently ignored and called contaminants, Blood cultures are

basically a testing procedure no-one likes, or uses frequently in medical

circles..

>

As a medical technologist who worked in hospital labs for almost a decade, I can

assure you that positive blood cultures are never ignored. It is considered a

" critical value " , resulting in immediate notification of the provider. The

cycle of bacteria multiplication has been well-studied, resulting in a

collection procedure involving more than one draw site over a time lapse. The

testing is actually very clear - some of the most expensive analyzers found in a

clinical laboratory detect minute growth in a blood culture bottle when nothing

would be found on an agar plate. Can you give me the genus and species of ONE

pathogen that has been isolated from a blood culture, which did not result in

life-threatening illness in the patient but may be the source of a case of MS?

I will be sure to research it! Thanking you in advance for a clear, concise

answer this time.

Crystal

[Guest guest]

Maybe, we'll see. I think that medical science is questionable. Many

possibilities have been found for the causes of disease. None of them have been

proved to cause MS. I'm doing the best I can with what I have available to me.

Are you offering a better way?

>

> Unfortunately it sounds like your pissing on a bushfire..these ilnesses are

HUGE and need good science as opposed to theories or wives tales..Colonics

definately clear out the nasties both toxins and bacteria, but you've still got

the factory brewing in the bloodstream ..master cleanses sounds a bit like who

knows what's going on type of a hit and miss treatnment...

[Guest guest]

Coagulase negative staphylococcus...

> >

> > Crystal

> > toxemia, septicemia, bacteremia are conditions very little is known about or

clear testing exists for..It's a hit and hope done with culture bottles, done

over several tries and focused on growing known pathogens..Oppurtunistic

pathogens are frequently ignored and called contaminants, Blood cultures are

basically a testing procedure no-one likes, or uses frequently in medical

circles..

> >

>

> As a medical technologist who worked in hospital labs for almost a decade, I

can assure you that positive blood cultures are never ignored. It is considered

a " critical value " , resulting in immediate notification of the provider. The

cycle of bacteria multiplication has been well-studied, resulting in a

collection procedure involving more than one draw site over a time lapse. The

testing is actually very clear - some of the most expensive analyzers found in a

clinical laboratory detect minute growth in a blood culture bottle when nothing

would be found on an agar plate. Can you give me the genus and species of ONE

pathogen that has been isolated from a blood culture, which did not result in

life-threatening illness in the patient but may be the source of a case of MS?

I will be sure to research it! Thanking you in advance for a clear, concise

answer this time.

>

> Crystal

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry I understand your doing the best you can, I just hate reading how

people are going to do simple things and there going to clean out and kill

everything..It sort of starts a wives tale of I'm doing this for my

antibacterial regime which is NOT TRUE, or even antiparasitic...

>

>. None of them have been proved to cause MS. I'm doing the best I can with

what I have available to me. Are you offering a better way?

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Coagulase negative staphylococcus...

>

Was it also found in subsequent serial draws to rule out skin contamination?

Thanks! Also, want to point out that the introduction of a usually

non-pathogenic bacteria into the bloodstream of a patient where it becomes

pathogenic is usually indicative of other compromising conditions, like surgical

implants or nosocomial infections due to hospitalization or other facility care.

Thus, it might be a hasty jump to place blame on the bacteria for causing MS if

there are other underlying issues in the patient. In other words, treating a

bacterial infection may not be going deep enough to the *real* root cause, which

allowed an opportunistic infection in the first place.

I think this is similar to the case made for antibiotics for a tooth abscess.

Yes, they may be necessary to prevent death since oral infections were a leading

cause of death prior to the creation of antibiotics. HOWEVER, the change in

man's diet to high-grain, high-sugar, highly-processed foods is what causes the

tooth decay & oral infections in the first place. Thus, changing the diet is

treating the true root cause.

Crystal

[Guest guest]

Crystal

Very good...The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid

explanation why there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.I don't care

what the medical system tells me when I find my organisms, I just care about the

organisms characteristics...They have it completely wrong and avoid growing

organisms and jump to conclusions that there not nasties..

You can't eat your way out of Toxins that rust your nervous system, but you can

slow them down.but you still have to address the problem to get completely away

from ilness..

> >

> > Coagulase negative staphylococcus...

> >

>

> Was it also found in subsequent serial draws to rule out skin contamination?

Thanks! Also, want to point out that the introduction of a usually

non-pathogenic bacteria into the bloodstream of a patient where it becomes

pathogenic is usually indicative of other compromising conditions, like surgical

implants or nosocomial infections due to hospitalization or other facility care.

Thus, it might be a hasty jump to place blame on the bacteria for causing MS if

there are other underlying issues in the patient. In other words, treating a

bacterial infection may not be going deep enough to the *real* root cause, which

allowed an opportunistic infection in the first place.

>

> I think this is similar to the case made for antibiotics for a tooth abscess.

Yes, they may be necessary to prevent death since oral infections were a leading

cause of death prior to the creation of antibiotics. HOWEVER, the change in

man's diet to high-grain, high-sugar, highly-processed foods is what causes the

tooth decay & oral infections in the first place. Thus, changing the diet is

treating the true root cause.

>

> Crystal

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Tony--If the food is the root cause, then everyone who eats the

Standard American Diet would have MS.

I personally believe that a person probably has to have a genetic presisposition

at some level to MS and then the MS is triggered by any of a variety of things

or a combination of factors, such as mercury, vaccinations, leaky gut, viruses,

bacteria, toxins from cigarettes, candida, parasites, Lyme, etc.

In some, maybe even many cases, doing the BBD strictly seems to reduce MS

symptoms or even put the disease in full remission. I don't seem to be one of

those people.

As to multivitamins, I personally think the high levels of vitamins, if they are

absorbed, may be a lot of work on the liver, kidneys, digestive enzymes, etc.

However, as with everything else with this illness though, it has to be on an

individual basis. If someone clearly feels better on their supplemtns or

multi's, then they know themselves and what is helping. It is not a

one-size-fits-all approach with this illness in regard to supplements.

What I like about Tony's posts is that he is talking about how to really rid

oneself of this crappy illness, as opposed to managing it -- That is my hope --

to get to the root problem/cause (which I don't believe is food, at least in my

case) and resolve it and no longer have MS.

I know so many people who eat so poorly who are much, much healthier than I am

and don't have any health problems.

>

> Crystal

> Very good...The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid

explanation why there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.I don't care

what the medical system tells me when I find my organisms, I just care about the

organisms characteristics...They have it completely wrong and avoid growing

organisms and jump to conclusions that there not nasties..

[Guest guest]

> The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid explanation why

there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.

Uh, yes I do. Leaky gut. It was Hippocrates who said " All illness begins in

the gut " . Thus, compromised immune systems going haywire, thus opportunistic

infections, thus systemic disease.

>> They have it completely wrong and avoid growing organisms and jump to

conclusions that there not nasties..

Is that your way of telling me that repeat serial cultures were not performed to

rule out skin contaminants? BTW, I'm not saying you're wrong about CoNS

becoming pathogenic. But I do want to see it definitively established that it

was in the bloodstream, not just on the skin, before I'll entertain the idea

that it didn't cause life-threatening illness requiring hospitalization and IV

antibiotic therapy, but caused MS.

Crystal

[Guest guest]

Crystal

red blood cell destruction isn't being caused by mother theresa..Many ilnesses

have an unexplained encephalitis..Organisms in the bloodstream would surely

qualify for encephalitis wouldn't they?

tony

> > The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid explanation why

there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.

>

> Uh, yes I do. Leaky gut. It was Hippocrates who said " All illness begins in

the gut " . Thus, compromised immune systems going haywire, thus opportunistic

infections, thus systemic disease.

>

> >> They have it completely wrong and avoid growing organisms and jump to

conclusions that there not nasties..

>

> Is that your way of telling me that repeat serial cultures were not performed

to rule out skin contaminants? BTW, I'm not saying you're wrong about CoNS

becoming pathogenic. But I do want to see it definitively established that it

was in the bloodstream, not just on the skin, before I'll entertain the idea

that it didn't cause life-threatening illness requiring hospitalization and IV

antibiotic therapy, but caused MS.

>

> Crystal

>

[Guest guest]

>

> red blood cell destruction isn't being caused by mother theresa..Many ilnesses

have an unexplained encephalitis..Organisms in the bloodstream would surely

qualify for encephalitis wouldn't they?

Uh, thought we were talking about MS on this group. But encephalitis would be

referring to csf, not blood. Any condition which ends in " itis " is an

indication of inflammation, which may or may not be caused by a pathogen.

My RBC, rcv, hgb, and hct have always been normal.

Not sure this is really going anywhere.

Crystal

[Guest guest]

I don't believe that every case of MS is due to leaky gut. If that were the

case, the majority of Americans who eat the SAD diet would have MS, and also

this scenario assumes that many other factors such as mercury, aspartame, all

kinds of toxins, viruses, parasites etc. play NO role in triggering MS.

I think it's great that some people are able to heal MS through the BBD and

maybe for those people leaky gut is the cause, but there is just no way that is

the cause in every case.

> > The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid explanation why

there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.

>

> Uh, yes I do. Leaky gut. It was Hippocrates who said " All illness begins in

the gut " . Thus, compromised immune systems going haywire, thus opportunistic

infections, thus systemic disease.

[Guest guest]

the reason why there's a massive increase in autoimmune conditions is I feel

strongly realted to the use of antibiotics.You get genetically altered bacteria

with poor choice antibiotics that then go on to fire up at anything that they

feel threatend with. Hence allergy- the worst form of allergy is steven johnsons

syndrome, wherby you shed massive amounts of skin(exfoliating toxins) nothing to

do with immune system attacking itself.Your immune system doesn't have the

ability to make you look like you've been attacked by a blow torch..

But yes the medical establishemnt will put there spin on everything not

realising that they are the culprits that created all these increases in

autoimmune ilness..

>

> This theory of bacteria/viruses to cause MS doesn't seem to be plausible to me

because we all have had illnesses, like measles or herpes simplex, and we don't

all have MS. Something caused the bacteria to be latent. Saying that it wasn't

food related could be incorrect as well since genetic modification appeared and

illness increased. That could have set the MS and other chronic disease in

motion. How may people have lesions that have not been diagnosed with MS?

Lesions are an immune response. It could be that the response was to bacteria

or it could be that the response was to a foreign food particle. It could be

something entirely different. We're only speculating. I know that there are

things that have helped me and things that haven't. As simple as some of those

things are they are better than antibiotics or synthetic drugs.

>

>

>

> > Is that your way of telling me that repeat serial cultures were not

performed to rule out skin contaminants? BTW, I'm not saying you're wrong about

CoNS becoming pathogenic. But I do want to see it definitively established that

it was in the bloodstream, not just on the skin, before I'll entertain the idea

that it didn't cause life-threatening illness requiring hospitalization and IV

antibiotic therapy, but caused MS.

> >

> > Crystal

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Crystal

I'd think that all autoimmune ilness's are INFLAMMATION ..Your obviously of the

opinion, like the medical establishment, thta your body is attacking itself...

>

> Uh, thought we were talking about MS on this group. But encephalitis would be

referring to csf, not blood. Any condition which ends in " itis " is an

indication of inflammation, which may or may not be caused by a pathogen.

>

> My RBC, rcv, hgb, and hct have always been normal.

>

> Not sure this is really going anywhere.

>

> Crystal

>

[Guest guest]

Tony's question was about why so many people have autoimmune diseases. It

wasn't just about MS, and I would never dare to address every case. The theory

behind leaky gut *does* address autoimmune disorders in general, i.e. undigested

proteins cause an immune response which is then extended to anything in the body

similar to the original offending protein.

I believe in my own personal case that Vitamin D deficiency was crucial to the

development of MS. That doesn't mean that leaky gut isn't a major or

contributing factor. Perhaps without the right combination of factors, I would

have ended up with a different disorder. I don't think anyone should ever make

a blanket statement about the cause of MS, mainly because I don't believe it's

even a distinct disease, but rather a set of symptoms due to lesions in the

brain.

I'm going to make a statement about the BBD and, , I hope you don't take

it as a personal affront because it's surely not intended that way! In fact,

the first time I made this statement was to a mother who said that a

gluten-free, casein-free diet did not help her autistic child and that was years

before MS ever became personal to me. The statement is/was " How do we know that

this diet does not work for everyone? Perhaps it's just a matter of *how long*

it takes to work for an individual. " I walked into this diet and other

therapies not expecting to see results in under a year. Also, one of the

reasons that studying this diet with strict scientific methods is so hard - it's

very difficult to verify how stringently an individual adheres to the treatment

beyond their own testimony. Who is going to monitor an individual's ELISA

results and every morsel of food they consume 24 hours per day, every day?

, you said yourself that your recent increase in symptoms is likely the

result of a consumption of food that was indicated off-limits by ELISA. That

clearly indicates the role of the gut. If I had to make an educated guess, I

would say that the reason you saw initial results with the BBD that then

declined was because you developed a sensitivity to a food when your consumption

of it increased with the change in diet. This is exactly what happened to me

with eggs. I didn't start out with the sensitivity, but I sure have it now!

All we can do is be vigilant with a food diary and rotating what we eat as much

as possible...at least until we can heal our guts!

Crystal

>

> I don't believe that every case of MS is due to leaky gut. If that were the

case, the majority of Americans who eat the SAD diet would have MS, and also

this scenario assumes that many other factors such as mercury, aspartame, all

kinds of toxins, viruses, parasites etc. play NO role in triggering MS.

>

> I think it's great that some people are able to heal MS through the BBD and

maybe for those people leaky gut is the cause, but there is just no way that is

the cause in every case.

>

>

[Guest guest]

More antibiotics go into livestock than they do humans. Doctors don't have

anything to do with that. We ought to look more closely into how our food is

processed. Some people don't realize that they're being medicated along with

their Big Mac! This is another reason that I think toxins create the problems.

They create an atmosphere that is favorable to the pathogen.

>

> the reason why there's a massive increase in autoimmune conditions is I feel

strongly realted to the use of antibiotics.You get genetically altered bacteria

with poor choice antibiotics that then go on to fire up at anything that they

feel threatend with. Hence allergy- the worst form of allergy is steven johnsons

syndrome, wherby you shed massive amounts of skin(exfoliating toxins) nothing to

do with immune system attacking itself.Your immune system doesn't have the

ability to make you look like you've been attacked by a blow torch..

> But yes the medical establishemnt will put there spin on everything not

realising that they are the culprits that created all these increases in

autoimmune ilness..

[Guest guest]

Leaky gut is the TOXINS..Membrane damaging pore forming TOXINS= leaky gut..Leaky

gut occured because of something like antibiotic use or chemical irritation..

> > > The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid explanation why

there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.

> >

> > Uh, yes I do. Leaky gut. It was Hippocrates who said " All illness begins

in the gut " . Thus, compromised immune systems going haywire, thus opportunistic

infections, thus systemic disease.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Crystal

> I'd think that all autoimmune ilness's are INFLAMMATION ..Your obviously of

the opinion, like the medical establishment, thta your body is attacking

itself...

>

Actually, I'm not at all convinced that MS is autoimmune because there are

differences between it and other autoimmune conditions. Dr. O. Young

makes a convincing case that this is more about acidity. As an MT, I totally

agree with what he has to say about lymphocyte activity - that they are present

to CLEAN UP the damage, rather than attacking and causing the damage. Of

course, their activity does cause inflammation and an increase in symptoms

regardless of the specific disease label one has been given.

And in case you didn't know, before the mainstream medical establishment decided

that MS was autoimmune, they previously thought that it was due to an infectious

agent. So, that means your theory is not only mainstream, but old news and

written off. (I'm being sarcastic here, hope you don't take offense)

Crystal

[Guest guest]

Leaky gut is also due to lack of digestive enzymes in some cases and sometimes

indigestible foods with too much cellulose or foods with a lack of fiber (meat).

Lots of things can cause leaky gut. Leaky gut leads to free radicals. Free

radicals lead to an immune response.

> > > > The only problem with this is that you don't have a valid explanation

why there's so many people with autoimmune conditions.

> > >

> > > Uh, yes I do. Leaky gut. It was Hippocrates who said " All illness begins

in the gut " . Thus, compromised immune systems going haywire, thus opportunistic

infections, thus systemic disease.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Leaky gut is the TOXINS..Membrane damaging pore forming TOXINS= leaky

gut..Leaky gut occured because of something like antibiotic use or chemical

irritation..

>

Absolutely, so the question is really which came first...the chicken or the egg?

I think that, regardless of what kind of chemical affront caused the leaky gut,

that condition is what results in the compromised immune system, allowing

opportunistic infections along with a host of other problems. So tackling the

leaky gut is the ultimate goal.

That's not to say that antimicrobials don't have a role on the path back to

health. I, myself, did the course of minocycline for C. pneumoniae. Felt like

crap almost the entire time, was it die-off? Don't know, but I do know that I

started a 10-day Master Cleanse immediately after coming off the antibiotics.

By day 2 I was on top of the world after having felt like crap for weeks.

Crystal