Re: trusting myself

[Guest guest]

Big Smile (I know your name is too

Self trust is such a huge issue for me. I went into therapy last year

to help me deal with 12 step treatment which I underwent in 1984. _15

years ago_. It took me 15 years to acknowledge how much that

experience harmed me, because I felt like a schmuck who always had to

qualify my pain with, " oh but they helped me get sober and that was

so

great. " Now I want to puke every time I think of that false

gratitude.

My question for therapy was, why did I choose treatment in 1984? Why

would I do something that was ultimately so harmful? Now, I see the

flaw in that question: it assumes that I made a voluntary choice to

undergo treatment. But it was not voluntary. True, I was not

court-ordered because of a dui, or because I got in a barroom brawl

or

beat up a family member.

However, I was raised to be a decent person. The rules I grew up with

were pretty traditional and simple: follow the Golden Rule. Do what

you say you're going to do--don't make promises and then not follow

through on them. Help others when you can, let others help you when

necessary.

When it came time for treatment, I wanted to do the right thing. I

was not given the opportunity to do the healthy thing, so I did 12

step treatment. Now, by telling the truth about what happened, I am

continuing to do the right thing. It's that simple.

judith

>

> Re: Digest Number 268

>

>

> > I had a very bad experience with AA before coming here and felt I

could not trust anybody. I still have a hard time with it. But, I am

learning to trust myself more and that is what matters most at this

point.

>

>

> Hi Big Smile. Trusting myself seems to be the most important thing

for me to stay sober. There are so many people who are out there

ready to belittle our ability to take control of our addictions.

We've heard the mind control drivel in AA for so long that it will

take some time to deprogram. Just think of the AA sayings like " how

can you trust your thinking when your best thinking got you to AA " ;

" your mind is like a bad neighborhood, its dangerous to be in there

alone " ; 'if you were all there you wouldn't be here " .

[Guest guest]

great post. trusting myself was key for me to break free from the AA

mind control. those who say we are fooling ourselves and seeking

excuses

to use, by truly, mindlessly parroting AA pyscho-babble are for

projecting

their own fears for themselves on others as fact.

but what is really interesting is what is left unsaid, if we aren't

in control, then

who is? well its god of course. you cant be in control if god is. and

by trying to

play god, you will suffer.

dave

[Guest guest]

perhaps a good reply for those who say those who leave aa are looking

for

an excuse to use would

be that we left when we wanted to no more excuses for our actions if

we did

use.

in aa all alcohol abuse is excused by idea of an individual being the

unfortunate and powerless

victim of uncontrollable spiritual disease. we should have have pity

an pray

for them, for there but

the grace of hp go i. if you use in AA, its not your fault and

probably

happened because you failed

when you tried to take reasonability for your actions.

outside of aa its entirely my responsibility if choose to use. cant

make any

excuses for that fact.

dont need any pity or prayers either.

dave

[Guest guest]

Re: trusting myself

>. if you use in AA, its not your fault and

> probably

> happened because you failed

> when you tried to take reasonability for your actions.

More than that, any type of responsibility is frowned upon. Everything is a

gift or a message from HP. I arrive late for a train ita a message from HP

that I wasn't meant to make my appointment. I arrive just in time for the

train and it is a gift from HP. I got so tired of the internal conflict I

felt every time I heard someone make a statement like " I am grateful to my

HP for putting my stokebroker in my life so I can retire now at age 40 " or

" I just got a 20% raise at work through the grace of God " . I had been in

Latin America for a while in 1993 and 1994 and seen kids living in the

streets like dogs (I know, there is poverty in the U.S. as well).

Really I don't care what outlook people have on religion. My conflict was

from feeling that I had to be lumped togther with them and " Come, Come To,

and Come To Believe " the way they did since I was convinced I had to adapt

to fit the AA mold. The first 5 years I tried to sift through all that BS

in AA before I said " what the f*ck? " . The last 5 years I wandered through

AA wondering how my end would come. Nothing I did mattered it seemed. I

can relate to the people who say that they lost their soul to AA. I'm

getting " me " back quickly now with so much contact with like-minded people.

Chris

[Guest guest]

This is why you can't trust AA.

Because those you trust do not trust themselves...they trust the

" Programme " they trust the Steps, they trust their " higher power " .

They do not trust their consciences, or their compassion....they trust

the " Word " and that " Word " sets no one free.

At least the addicted can say to him'herself " This is wrong " but AA

says " no " you are not wrong, you are an " alcoholic " and once you admit

that in a group, you're done for. You are not " wrong " , you are

diseased, with nary an ability to run your own life. You NEED them

because you cannot or ever, be able to run your own life, EVER AGAIN,

without AA.

Isn't that basically the bottom line here?

Who needs that? There are other ways to stop or control addictive

behavior and my beliefs as

to who can benefit from AA have already been posted, much to my heathen

delight and I stick by that opinion.

There are healthier places a person can go to " save " themselves. Search

the net.

" Keep comin' back "

[Guest guest]

> Re: Re: trusting myself

> Re: trusting myself

>

>

> I had been in

> Latin America for a while in 1993 and 1994 and seen kids living in the

> streets like dogs (I know, there is poverty in the U.S. as well).

I can relate to this. When I was stationed in the Philippines the poverty

struck at my soul. We would bring in crates of ammo for night fires and

were shocked to discover, a few days later, that a family had collected them

and set up a residence with them. The expended brass was worth a small

fortune there and we would routinely be overrun by the residents in their

efforts to collect it, immediately after our live firing exercises.

It's stuff like that which frankly makes me question the God thing all the

time.

[Guest guest]

RE: Re: trusting myself

>

> I can relate to this. When I was stationed in the Philippines the poverty

> struck at my soul. We would bring in crates of ammo for night fires and

> were shocked to discover, a few days later, that a family had collected

them

> and set up a residence with them. The expended brass was worth a small

> fortune there and we would routinely be overrun by the residents in their

> efforts to collect it, immediately after our live firing exercises.

>

> It's stuff like that which frankly makes me question the God thing all the

> time.

There is a phrase here in the U.S. that I hear a lot. " They are dirt poor

but happy people " . I haven't met too many street children in Caracas who

were happy. There are beggers here in Boston but almost never any children.

In the Dominican Republic I met families who had very little but were

incredibly friendly to me. It seemed like every night there were dozens of

family and friends at the two room, cinder block house dancing to merengue

music. I felt a spirituality that has nothing to do with a Supreme Being.

I just enjoy feeling a connection with other people and nature.

In AA I never felt any sort or spiritual awakening. Looking to a God of my

understanding to control my life and to explain the way the world was just

seemed to sap my spirituality from me. I no longer felt like a normal human

being that was part of an interesting world full of diversity (including

bleakness). No, I was supposed to become part of God's plan for me in

order to stay sober. I really wanted no part of that plan. I listened and

listened at AA and tried my best to not question HP but I just never was

able to surrender to the concept that in AA those that stay sober are the

" Chosen Ones " .

Chris