Re: Digest Number 255

> Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date: 2 Aug 2000 20:29:34 -0000

> Subject: Digest Number 255

>

> I'm assuming the " one such female " referred to is Audrey Kishline, the founder

> of MM. In January, she publicly renounced MM and joined AA. It was months

> later,

> as an AA member, that she got stupid drunk, drove the wrong way down a

> freeway,

> and killed two people.

August 2, 2000

thanks! Someone else mentioned this alternative to me recently!

--

Regards,

CWB

> Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date: 2 Aug 2000 20:29:34 -0000

> Subject: Digest Number 255

>

> 've been to quite a few SMART meeting and met a lot of people who have had

> miserable success with AA but are now doing well with SMART.

August 2, 2000

Thank you for your honesty! You see, I went back to AA after my last bout,

because I had no idea where else to go! I fell upon this list by chance, so

here we are talking. I don't claim to have any of the answers. I know I have

a lot of pent up anger and resentment towards myself and to AA as well. I

mean 5 years in there before did not rehabilitate my behavior. Was it futile

to think that it would now? I don't know. I had nothing else to try and a

therapist I had been seeing until recently, suggested I try it again? Why I

inquired? Well you stayed sober for 5 years there before, Right? was the

answer!

Certainly, I understand the rage you must feel. I understand that initially

you would want to direct it at me, but, I have just had enough. The last

time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid, fatherless. Do you

begin to get the picture? I can't afford another relapse, because I am not

sure if I will make it! but thank you for your kind words!

--

CWB

> Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date: 2 Aug 2000 20:29:34 -0000

http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

> Subject: Digest Number 255

>

> Maybe you will respond to my message to you Big Smile. Even though this is

> sort of a two-person dialogue, I thought I'd interject here a bit. I've had

> quite a few AAers tell me that they wish I had " hit rock bottom " when I was

> in graduate school. They had these little smug looks on their faces when

> they told me that. I often wonder why exactly people would ask me every

> time they saw me how much time I had. (I know Big Smile, they wanted to

> know so that they could try and relate to where I was at in my recovery)

> Maybe that was just oversensitivity on my part but I swear I culd see a

> gleam in their eyes as they waited for my response. I guess had I

> fullfilled their wishes I would have been willing to accept their beliefs,

> therefore helping to confirm in their minds the basis of their sobriety.

>

> Many, many times at AA meetings I have heard a person speak of a " relapse "

> and then several members thanked that person for drinking so that they

> wouldn't have to. That happened to me on several occasions. I was thanked,

> I guess, for being the sacrificial lamb, that their God decided would drink

> for the benefit of the " Chosen Few " .

>

> On one occasion I " went back " to AA and once again humiliated myself by

> raising my hand to say I relapsed or by going up in fornt of everyone to get

> another 24 hour chip. I suppose I can look at my humiliation as a sort of

> healthy response from that responsible part of me that didn't really believe

> the " it was the disease that made me drink " excuse. Anyway, I had some guy,

> a typical 10+ year AA guru, tell me " better you than me " ! After that guy

> there were the usual talk about me not being rigorously honest, not being

> willing, etc. I had a real nice guilt trip and bout of hopelessness and

> depression after that. Honestly, I hope I never see that guy again because

> I wouldn't want to have to control the rage that I know I'll feel. Of

> course, I could always blame my " disease " if I were to cause him physical

> harm, couldn't I?

August 2, 2000

I don't recall anyone saying or implying they hate you BS. I detect a little

of that transference going on again. This isn't personal and I don't hate

you. I dislike with a passion your belief system, as it relates to alcohol,

though.

> Re: Digest Number 255

>

> thank you Ken. If AA was working for me, I would never have allowed myself

> to be debased, as has happened over the past few days , by members of this

> list. I genuinely thank you for some REAL information, as opposed to hate

> mail!

> --

> CWB

>

August 2, 2000

That's three hail mary's four out fathers a novena and walk the Way of The

Cross four times then its back to your first step for you. It's become

apparent you aren't ready for 12 step work. You just don't have the

patience to deal with the pagans yet.

> Re: Digest Number 255

>

> Thank you! I have now heard from the Queen of the Atheists! or a

> disillusioned Trekkie? or the ex of Rodney Dangerfield? Whatever? More

> deconstructive mumbo flatulence!

> I will pray for you!

> --

> CWB

> >

> > B.S. is your code name? Hmmm. So your posts are all a joke?

> About the return

> > to sanity? Keep praying. Maybe it will keep you " humble " enough to stop

> > engaging in nonsense while you recruit others to your warped way of

> > rationalizing cult mentality. However, if the praying doesn't

> restore you

> > sanity you could surrepticiously (oooh, don't let the borg know!) try

> > cognitive therapy. But for your own sake and that of others get

> on with your

> > life, get out of the powerless and dominance mode, let AA die a

> natural death

> > and get off this list. Thank you.

> > Carol

>

August 2, 2000

" I will pray for you! " , says the man, but only, of course, after putting you

down and insulting you. That's the XA Way,

DH.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

>Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:12:56 -0500

>

>That's three hail mary's four out fathers a novena and walk the Way of The

>Cross four times then its back to your first step for you. It's become

>apparent you aren't ready for 12 step work. You just don't have the

>patience to deal with the pagans yet.

>

> > Re: Digest Number 255

> >

> > Thank you! I have now heard from the Queen of the Atheists! or a

> > disillusioned Trekkie? or the ex of Rodney Dangerfield? Whatever? More

> > deconstructive mumbo flatulence!

> > I will pray for you!

> > --

> > CWB

> > >

> > > B.S. is your code name? Hmmm. So your posts are all a joke?

> > About the return

> > > to sanity? Keep praying. Maybe it will keep you " humble " enough to

>stop

> > > engaging in nonsense while you recruit others to your warped way of

> > > rationalizing cult mentality. However, if the praying doesn't

> > restore you

> > > sanity you could surrepticiously (oooh, don't let the borg know!) try

> > > cognitive therapy. But for your own sake and that of others get

> > on with your

> > > life, get out of the powerless and dominance mode, let AA die a

> > natural death

> > > and get off this list. Thank you.

> > > Carol

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

August 2, 2000

Hi . I haven't been reading this thread because I'm too busy the last

few days. It's a nice feeling of power to delete BS's messages unread. I've

enjoyed mixing it up with steppers but it's nice to just say " ya know what,

uh uh, buh bye " . I thought of a childish, potty humor little joke, I thought

it would make a good subject line: tp4bs? wipe him off the face of 12sf.

But your Catholic reference caught my eye--you didn't mention The Apostle's

Creed in your penance so it must not have been THAT bad a sin, whatever BS

did.

And then I read on and saw his Star Trek reference, and thought perhaps he

could learn a lesson in communication from the Next Generation episode about

" Darmak and Chalad at Tanagra " . Anyone know the one I'm talking about? It's

incredible, I'm not a trekkie but a few of those Next Gen shows just tear my

heart out.

judith

> That's three hail mary's four out fathers a novena and walk the Way of

The

> Cross four times then its back to your first step for you. It's become

> apparent you aren't ready for 12 step work. You just don't have the

> patience to deal with the pagans yet.

>

> > Re: Digest Number 255

> >

> > Thank you! I have now heard from the Queen of the Atheists! or a

> > disillusioned Trekkie? or the ex of Rodney Dangerfield? Whatever? More

> > deconstructive mumbo flatulence!

> > I will pray for you!

> > --

> > CWB

> > >

> > > B.S. is your code name? Hmmm. So your posts are all a joke?

> > About the return

> > > to sanity? Keep praying. Maybe it will keep you " humble " enough to

stop

> > > engaging in nonsense while you recruit others to your warped way of

> > > rationalizing cult mentality. However, if the praying doesn't

> > restore you

> > > sanity you could surrepticiously (oooh, don't let the borg know!) try

> > > cognitive therapy. But for your own sake and that of others get

> > on with your

> > > life, get out of the powerless and dominance mode, let AA die a

> > natural death

> > > and get off this list. Thank you.

> > > Carol

> >

>

_______________________________________________________

Say Bye to Slow Internet!

August 2, 2000

> Re: Digest Number 255

>

> Thank you for your honesty!

I have yet to see anyone on this list lie to you.

>You see, I went back to AA after my last bout,

> because I had no idea where else to go!

I can commiserate. The options aren't exactly trumpeted from the ceilings

in AA.

> I fell upon this list by chance, so here we are talking. I don't claim to

have any of the answers.

Not trying to be confrontational here but earlier you did and it was AA.

>I know I have a lot of pent up anger and resentment towards myself and to

AA as well. I mean 5 years in there before did >>

> not rehabilitate my behavior.

That's probably because AA isn't about behavior modification it's about

finding God and believing that he'll intervene to stop the disease from

progressing as long as you're working the steps.

>Was it futile to think that it would now? I don't know.

I know this was posed as a hypothetical question. But... Only you can

answer that one. Past experience doesn't necessarily have to be your guide

here. I think you'll find if you loosen up on the disease strings and accept

that problem drinking is a behavior, more specifically your behavior, and

not a disease you'll begin to understand that it's you who can make the

difference in your own life, that you can stop drinking destructively, even

stop drinking indefinitely if you like, as opposed to being at the whim of a

disease. I know it's a scary thought accepting that it's you who've been

going the drink bender haywire routine and not a mythological disease

causing you to behave in that fashion.

> I had nothing else to try and a therapist I had been seeing until

recently, suggested I try it again? Why I inquired? Well > you stayed sober

for 5 years there before, Right? was the answer!

Bravo on this one. If a therapist isn't helping it's time to get a new one.

Have you considered a therapist open to more than just the 12 steps? I

believe there are a few members of this list who can give you a start in

finding one.

> Certainly, I understand the rage you must feel. I understand that

> initially you would want to direct it at me, but, I have just had enough.

It isn't you it's what you've been taught to believe. I don't like the way

that sounds but you get the idea.

> The last time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid,

fatherless. Do you begin to get the picture? I can't

> afford another relapse, because I am not sure if I will make it! but thank

you for your kind words!

I know this is going to sound cold and indifferent to you but here it goes.

If you can't afford another relapse then don't have one. Stop drinking.

Period. AA indirectly and irresponsibly taught you that you couldn't stop

once you've started because you have a disease. So the sooner you stop

believing in that disease the better off you'll be Big. Ken and a couple

others have given you references to start you out.

There's one thing I don't understand though. Why, if you were feeling this

about AA, do you defend it so vehemently?

>> --

> CWB

August 2, 2000

At 06:31 PM 8/2/00 -0500, Arroyo wrote:

>It isn't you it's what you've been taught to believe. I don't like the way

>that sounds but you get the idea.

When I was in college a drunker-than-thou student took a fire extinguisher

and threw it in a dumpster. Later he apparently bad-mouthed a cop, since a

friend of his was taking up for him, trying to convonce the cop not to

arrest him, saying " he didn't mean it, that was just the liquor talking " .

I don't neccesarily thing that it was really " the liquor talking " , but I've

put the analogy to good use in the recent years of my leaving AA.

When I hear someone saying things such as " Let go and let God " or

" Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired " , it helps when I remember that it's not

really the person talking, it's 'the program' talking. I've even caught

myself doing it many times over the years (such as confusing any of several

AA meanings of 'sober' with real-world concepts that mean something else).

When I first started to realize this, I had a lot of cognitive dissonance,

as I had thoughts along the lines of " but I believe this because I CHOOSE

to believe it... " . Yet I was starting to see where my 'choices' about what

I though had been guided by AA to be the same as others' 'choices'.

>> The last time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid,

>fatherless. Do you begin to get the picture? I can't

>> afford another relapse, because I am not sure if I will make it! but thank

>you for your kind words!

>

>I know this is going to sound cold and indifferent to you but here it goes.

>If you can't afford another relapse then don't have one. Stop drinking.

>Period.

And it's just that easy - I've been 'doing it' (not drinking) for over

twelve years.

> AA indirectly and irresponsibly taught you that you couldn't stop

>once you've started because you have a disease. So the sooner you stop

>believing in that disease the better off you'll be Big. Ken and a couple

>others have given you references to start you out.

>

>There's one thing I don't understand though. Why, if you were feeling this

>about AA, do you defend it so vehemently?

I suspect because this list is VERY radical for anyone who has looking

for and/or just found anything that questions AA. About nine years ago I

went to my first SOS meeting after having been in AA for three years, and

I felt like I was visiting Satan's home. And SOS isn't nearly as

'heretical' as this list.

But seeing the others in SOS who were obviously abstinent [i nearly

wrote 'sober'] totally confirmed my suspicion that " AA is the only way "

was a lie, the people who said it didn't know what they were talking

about, and I knew if I as much as mentioned SOS I'd find out they didn't

want to learn otherwise.

If we appear to be too 'far out' or too reactionary, try

<http://www.unhooked.com>.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

August 2, 2000

Big Smile,

I don't want your kid to grow up without a father because

his father believes that he is powerless. If the time

comes that you do take that " first drink " again, please

try to throw those AA thoughts out the window. They will

only lead you to full blown relapse. You DO NOT have a

disease that can make you do anything. You are not

powerless.

Does AA harm? Absolutely. I have a dear friend drinking

himself to death because AA told him that he has a disease

and cannot help it. He believes this great cop-out.

After all, he is no longer responsible for his behavior

with this insane belief. He believes he cannot stop.

AA's teachings of powerlessness are killing many. And if you

believe them, they just may kill you, too. Then your kid

really won't have a father.....Will this be because of

a " disease " ..... or because you BELIEVED you had one?

Take responsibility for your behavior and you will be free.

Of course that is very hard to do when AA teaaches you not

to trust yourself. (do you realize how dangerous and

sick that is?) OF COURSE YOU CAN TRUST YOURSELF.

You really do know what is best for you. Please give

yourself a chance.

Get rid of the label that the cult gave you. You may have

been alcohol dependant or a problem drinker in the past,

but are you now? I, myself used to have quite a drinking

problem. Today, I do not. What does that make me? Someone

who has overcome a difficulty, for Christs sake. No

more, no less.

Being truly free is being free from alcohol and AA.

Hope you can break free from their hold.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

>Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:31:46 -0500

>

> > Re: Digest Number 255

> >

> > Thank you for your honesty!

>

>I have yet to see anyone on this list lie to you.

>

> >You see, I went back to AA after my last bout,

> > because I had no idea where else to go!

>

>I can commiserate. The options aren't exactly trumpeted from the ceilings

>in AA.

>

> > I fell upon this list by chance, so here we are talking. I don't claim

>to

>have any of the answers.

>

>Not trying to be confrontational here but earlier you did and it was AA.

>

> >I know I have a lot of pent up anger and resentment towards myself and to

>AA as well. I mean 5 years in there before did >>

> > not rehabilitate my behavior.

>

>That's probably because AA isn't about behavior modification it's about

>finding God and believing that he'll intervene to stop the disease from

>progressing as long as you're working the steps.

>

> >Was it futile to think that it would now? I don't know.

>

>I know this was posed as a hypothetical question. But... Only you can

>answer that one. Past experience doesn't necessarily have to be your guide

>here. I think you'll find if you loosen up on the disease strings and

>accept

>that problem drinking is a behavior, more specifically your behavior, and

>not a disease you'll begin to understand that it's you who can make the

>difference in your own life, that you can stop drinking destructively, even

>stop drinking indefinitely if you like, as opposed to being at the whim of

>a

>disease. I know it's a scary thought accepting that it's you who've been

>going the drink bender haywire routine and not a mythological disease

>causing you to behave in that fashion.

>

> > I had nothing else to try and a therapist I had been seeing until

>recently, suggested I try it again? Why I inquired? Well > you stayed sober

>for 5 years there before, Right? was the answer!

>

>Bravo on this one. If a therapist isn't helping it's time to get a new

>one.

>Have you considered a therapist open to more than just the 12 steps? I

>believe there are a few members of this list who can give you a start in

>finding one.

>

> > Certainly, I understand the rage you must feel. I understand that

> > initially you would want to direct it at me, but, I have just had

>enough.

>

>It isn't you it's what you've been taught to believe. I don't like the way

>that sounds but you get the idea.

>

> > The last time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid,

>fatherless. Do you begin to get the picture? I can't

> > afford another relapse, because I am not sure if I will make it! but

>thank

>you for your kind words!

>

>I know this is going to sound cold and indifferent to you but here it goes.

>If you can't afford another relapse then don't have one. Stop drinking.

>Period. AA indirectly and irresponsibly taught you that you couldn't stop

>once you've started because you have a disease. So the sooner you stop

>believing in that disease the better off you'll be Big. Ken and a couple

>others have given you references to start you out.

>

>There's one thing I don't understand though. Why, if you were feeling this

>about AA, do you defend it so vehemently?

>

> >> --

> > CWB

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

August 2, 2000

Sue, your comments are very interesting.. I would like to talk to you

sometime about your comments.. I am 5 and a half years with out alcohol.. I

would like to try and smoke pot.. I don't want to drink although alcohol

used to be my drug of choice.. I don't want to get drunk but I would like a

nice relaxing buzz.. am I screwed up ?

I have really prospered in my sobriety.. I don't want to mess it up but I

just have this urge to get a little high .. I don't want to hurt any one

especially not my self .. I was in a very abusive marriage and I self

medicated myself .. yes I believe I am an alcoholic.. I don't think I should

drink.. but I'm not sure about the pot thing.. any thing you could

contribute would help... I hate AA .. Hate it

I know that's a strong word.. but I had to leave I couldn't take it any

more.. I am still clean and sober today .. thanks for listening

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

>Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:16:03 GMT

>

> Big Smile,

>

> I don't want your kid to grow up without a father because

> his father believes that he is powerless. If the time

> comes that you do take that " first drink " again, please

> try to throw those AA thoughts out the window. They will

> only lead you to full blown relapse. You DO NOT have a

> disease that can make you do anything. You are not

> powerless.

> Does AA harm? Absolutely. I have a dear friend drinking

> himself to death because AA told him that he has a disease

> and cannot help it. He believes this great cop-out.

> After all, he is no longer responsible for his behavior

> with this insane belief. He believes he cannot stop.

>

> AA's teachings of powerlessness are killing many. And if you

> believe them, they just may kill you, too. Then your kid

> really won't have a father.....Will this be because of

> a " disease " ..... or because you BELIEVED you had one?

>

> Take responsibility for your behavior and you will be free.

> Of course that is very hard to do when AA teaaches you not

> to trust yourself. (do you realize how dangerous and

> sick that is?) OF COURSE YOU CAN TRUST YOURSELF.

> You really do know what is best for you. Please give

> yourself a chance.

>

> Get rid of the label that the cult gave you. You may have

> been alcohol dependant or a problem drinker in the past,

> but are you now? I, myself used to have quite a drinking

> problem. Today, I do not. What does that make me? Someone

> who has overcome a difficulty, for Christs sake. No

> more, no less.

>

> Being truly free is being free from alcohol and AA.

>

> Hope you can break free from their hold.

>

> Sue

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> >Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

> >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:31:46 -0500

> >

> > > Re: Digest Number 255

> > >

> > > Thank you for your honesty!

> >

> >I have yet to see anyone on this list lie to you.

> >

> > >You see, I went back to AA after my last bout,

> > > because I had no idea where else to go!

> >

> >I can commiserate. The options aren't exactly trumpeted from the

>ceilings

> >in AA.

> >

> > > I fell upon this list by chance, so here we are talking. I don't claim

> >to

> >have any of the answers.

> >

> >Not trying to be confrontational here but earlier you did and it was AA.

> >

> > >I know I have a lot of pent up anger and resentment towards myself and

>to

> >AA as well. I mean 5 years in there before did >>

> > > not rehabilitate my behavior.

> >

> >That's probably because AA isn't about behavior modification it's about

> >finding God and believing that he'll intervene to stop the disease from

> >progressing as long as you're working the steps.

> >

> > >Was it futile to think that it would now? I don't know.

> >

> >I know this was posed as a hypothetical question. But... Only you can

> >answer that one. Past experience doesn't necessarily have to be your

>guide

> >here. I think you'll find if you loosen up on the disease strings and

> >accept

> >that problem drinking is a behavior, more specifically your behavior, and

> >not a disease you'll begin to understand that it's you who can make the

> >difference in your own life, that you can stop drinking destructively,

>even

> >stop drinking indefinitely if you like, as opposed to being at the whim

>of

> >a

> >disease. I know it's a scary thought accepting that it's you who've been

> >going the drink bender haywire routine and not a mythological disease

> >causing you to behave in that fashion.

> >

> > > I had nothing else to try and a therapist I had been seeing until

> >recently, suggested I try it again? Why I inquired? Well > you stayed

>sober

> >for 5 years there before, Right? was the answer!

> >

> >Bravo on this one. If a therapist isn't helping it's time to get a new

> >one.

> >Have you considered a therapist open to more than just the 12 steps? I

> >believe there are a few members of this list who can give you a start in

> >finding one.

> >

> > > Certainly, I understand the rage you must feel. I understand that

> > > initially you would want to direct it at me, but, I have just had

> >enough.

> >

> >It isn't you it's what you've been taught to believe. I don't like the

>way

> >that sounds but you get the idea.

> >

> > > The last time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid,

> >fatherless. Do you begin to get the picture? I can't

> > > afford another relapse, because I am not sure if I will make it! but

> >thank

> >you for your kind words!

> >

> >I know this is going to sound cold and indifferent to you but here it

>goes.

> >If you can't afford another relapse then don't have one. Stop drinking.

> >Period. AA indirectly and irresponsibly taught you that you couldn't

>stop

> >once you've started because you have a disease. So the sooner you stop

> >believing in that disease the better off you'll be Big. Ken and a couple

> >others have given you references to start you out.

> >

> >There's one thing I don't understand though. Why, if you were feeling

>this

> >about AA, do you defend it so vehemently?

> >

> > >> --

> > > CWB

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

August 2, 2000

Thanx Ben;

I'm going to keep this in mind. Takes me awhile sometimes to remember.

ly I prefer the way you and Sue put it. To his way of thinking I've

been extremely confrontational with him perhaps he'll hear you and Sue where

he might not me.

> RE: Digest Number 255

>

> I suspect because this list is VERY radical for anyone who has looking

> for and/or just found anything that questions AA. About nine years ago I

> went to my first SOS meeting after having been in AA for three years, and

> I felt like I was visiting Satan's home. And SOS isn't nearly as

> 'heretical' as this list.

> But seeing the others in SOS who were obviously abstinent [i nearly

> wrote 'sober'] totally confirmed my suspicion that " AA is the only way "

> was a lie, the people who said it didn't know what they were talking

> about, and I knew if I as much as mentioned SOS I'd find out they didn't

> want to learn otherwise.

>

> If we appear to be too 'far out' or too reactionary, try

> <http://www.unhooked.com>.

> -----

>

August 3, 2000

Sue,

The pot question is of relevance to me and my case. I smoke pot pretty well

all day long at the moment and have done so for quite some time. I'm not

especially happy about this (slight brain-scrambling, but more uncomfortable

about money I ought to devote more sensibly and the bad effects on the

respiratory system of inhaling the smoke of burning vegetables, tobacco and

cannabis together in my case). I don't smoke an awful lot -- little

sprinklings in cigarettes to tune of 1.5 grammes of north African hash per

diem is my routine, but I do enjoy a heavier session when there's good

company for it. I have not been a " problem drinker " for some time and was

so only at a few times of acute crisis years. I've been chiefly abstinent

for the last three years. I had a major life-change recently -- unhappily

(for me)divorced last year, move out of family home in the wilds into flat

near city centre, and I have had two or three brushes with the booze since

last November. The last one went on for about a month (it showed in this

group -- deranged posts, etc., and some real help in private from some of my

good friends), developing from couple of drinks a couple of times a week

through to 8 drinks a day dependency and acute discomfort. I managed to

snap out totally as prayer (I am a Christian) and enlightened self-interest

prevailed. I do not want to drink. I only associate it with anaesthesia

from emotional pain or boredom. I have terrible after-effects, noticeable

on 2 or 3 drinks, crippling after, say, 6. It sets up a train of

semi-permanent depression, the metabolic downer-cycle described so clearly

in a biochemically inclined post recently, and costs a lot more than the

dope. I have a problem with the way society is so alcohol-adjusted. To be

on a working social and socio-sexual wavelength you need to have alcohol in

your system to be " normal " . I miss out because I find boozy environments

uncongenial if I'm not boozed, and perhaps my habitual mild stonedness

accentuates this difficulty. I do see cannabis as radically different from

alcohol, despite the fact devout stepheads ultimately shove them together.

(One of the most sickening XA public lies/flagrant idiocies is that there is

no difference between types of drug -- eat a gramme of hash and a gramme of

smack and the difference will be readily apparent.) My use of it is

strictly a matter of choice, the same choice I exercise effectively (fingers

crossed) re abstinence from alcohol. My circumstances are not in some ways

enviable and I do use hash as a sort of meliorative in adjusting the tone of

a " reality " I'm not to too happy with. But my " reality " is socially

determined in these connections as well as being internally generated. I do

not think I have a disease that compels me to use or abuse cannabis. I

would almost plead psycho-medicinal use, though I feel that's a bit of a

cop-out for sheer reluctance to do without the stuff or modify my habits. I

get more gain than pain from dope at the moment, and it can be a useful

state-inducer for my creative work, which, as a poet, etc., and experimental

graphic artist, seems sometimes to gain from cannabis. Cannabis can also

induce a fairly stultifying inertia, but that's quite rare with me, and

generally only happens when there are other factors bringing me down. If I'm

feeling energetic, dope can equally propel me into a breath-takingly manic

state, which can be disturbing, like its polar oppsite downer. I've been

rather inert this week, though am snapping out of it, as I have been

feeling emotionally cleaned out, as ever, following the departure of my

young children after a happy week with me to go 100 miles back to their

stepNazi Mum. She is a case in poin here. After having been an all-out

drink-drugs raver she got XA and was totally abstinent from everything for

nine years. She then sneaked a smoke of dope when visiting a friend and

returned home saying we should smoke as our little treat. So we did for

three years -- chiefly just at weekends, though we sometimes got stoned

every night. Great for our already excellent sex-lives. No problem.

Except when life took a turn for the worse with business failure, cash

running out, illness in family, she went into a moral panic and began

freaking out after smoking. She went back to NA (having cut right down to

only one CODA per week!) and became a total disease theorist. Dope smoking

instantly banned, and me on the divorce list for failure to comply. I think

she had a psycho-reaction to her circumstances of a psychedelic nature and

had to face certain things in her past and present she recoiled from. She

fled from her own mind to the steps and has never come back. I've always

wanted her back, but part of my attitude has been to say I'm damned if I'll

stop smoking dope as a condition for a woman who put a gun to the family's

head and pulled the trigger. So I take a sort of a stand on dope, very

deluded, thin ice all round, but a place I happen to like being. I'd admit

I'm an addict if it meant anything beyond expressing vague social

disapproval for my condition. It's choice and I choose it. I'm very clear

on wishing not to drink. I feel I have a different relationship with

alcohol, which is a properly addictive drug. I've smoked and sniffed smack

a couple of times over the years and I find with both booze and smack that

there's a sort of cellular compulsion to repeat the experience, they are

both fiercely addictive drugs which leave the body vibrating unpleasantly as

they depart. Cannabis is not like that. I can smoke heavily then go out of

the house with no dope and stay out all day without noticing I " need "

anything. On days when I don't smoke till late afternoon, I'm not

struggling against the metabolic plea for a repeat dose that I get with

booze. I wouldn't recommend anyone to smoke cannabis, but it sure is the

lesser of two evils for me (and I believe would be for Western society as a

whole), a wholly different kettle of fish to Al K Hol. I'm sure that in

different circumstances I would have different habits -- I only smoked in

evenings or at weekends when in a more normative marital/domestic

environment. I have also used it daily -- orally in ground up form --

without smoking. And would like to get on to such a basis again. Trouble

is there's the " smoking behaviour " , which means the tobacco component of the

smokes I make. I think nicotine, like booze and smack, is a viciously

addicitve drug, more invidious, more subliminal, but famously a S-O-B to

kick. At the moment, I'm just too strung out to give non-smokming another

try, but really would like to get free of that behaviour.

So, I have gone on at some length. Make what you will of it. It's an

honest attempt to cover the ground you opened. Regard it as Doug the

born-again-dope-fiend coming out!

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

>Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

>Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:30:50 GMT

>

> Sue, your comments are very interesting.. I would like to talk to you

>sometime about your comments.. I am 5 and a half years with out alcohol.. I

>would like to try and smoke pot.. I don't want to drink although alcohol

>used to be my drug of choice.. I don't want to get drunk but I would like a

>nice relaxing buzz.. am I screwed up ?

>I have really prospered in my sobriety.. I don't want to mess it up but I

>just have this urge to get a little high .. I don't want to hurt any one

>especially not my self .. I was in a very abusive marriage and I self

>medicated myself .. yes I believe I am an alcoholic.. I don't think I

>should

>drink.. but I'm not sure about the pot thing.. any thing you could

>contribute would help... I hate AA .. Hate it

>I know that's a strong word.. but I had to leave I couldn't take it any

>more.. I am still clean and sober today .. thanks for listening

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

> >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:16:03 GMT

> >

> > Big Smile,

> >

> > I don't want your kid to grow up without a father because

> > his father believes that he is powerless. If the time

> > comes that you do take that " first drink " again, please

> > try to throw those AA thoughts out the window. They will

> > only lead you to full blown relapse. You DO NOT have a

> > disease that can make you do anything. You are not

> > powerless.

> > Does AA harm? Absolutely. I have a dear friend drinking

> > himself to death because AA told him that he has a disease

> > and cannot help it. He believes this great cop-out.

> > After all, he is no longer responsible for his behavior

> > with this insane belief. He believes he cannot stop.

> >

> > AA's teachings of powerlessness are killing many. And if you

> > believe them, they just may kill you, too. Then your kid

> > really won't have a father.....Will this be because of

> > a " disease " ..... or because you BELIEVED you had one?

> >

> > Take responsibility for your behavior and you will be free.

> > Of course that is very hard to do when AA teaaches you not

> > to trust yourself. (do you realize how dangerous and

> > sick that is?) OF COURSE YOU CAN TRUST YOURSELF.

> > You really do know what is best for you. Please give

> > yourself a chance.

> >

> > Get rid of the label that the cult gave you. You may have

> > been alcohol dependant or a problem drinker in the past,

> > but are you now? I, myself used to have quite a drinking

> > problem. Today, I do not. What does that make me? Someone

> > who has overcome a difficulty, for Christs sake. No

> > more, no less.

> >

> > Being truly free is being free from alcohol and AA.

> >

> > Hope you can break free from their hold.

> >

> > Sue

> >

> > >

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > >Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

> > >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:31:46 -0500

> > >

> > > > Re: Digest Number 255

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for your honesty!

> > >

> > >I have yet to see anyone on this list lie to you.

> > >

> > > >You see, I went back to AA after my last bout,

> > > > because I had no idea where else to go!

> > >

> > >I can commiserate. The options aren't exactly trumpeted from the

> >ceilings

> > >in AA.

> > >

> > > > I fell upon this list by chance, so here we are talking. I don't

>claim

> > >to

> > >have any of the answers.

> > >

> > >Not trying to be confrontational here but earlier you did and it was

>AA.

> > >

> > > >I know I have a lot of pent up anger and resentment towards myself

>and

> >to

> > >AA as well. I mean 5 years in there before did >>

> > > > not rehabilitate my behavior.

> > >

> > >That's probably because AA isn't about behavior modification it's about

> > >finding God and believing that he'll intervene to stop the disease from

> > >progressing as long as you're working the steps.

> > >

> > > >Was it futile to think that it would now? I don't know.

> > >

> > >I know this was posed as a hypothetical question. But... Only you can

> > >answer that one. Past experience doesn't necessarily have to be your

> >guide

> > >here. I think you'll find if you loosen up on the disease strings and

> > >accept

> > >that problem drinking is a behavior, more specifically your behavior,

>and

> > >not a disease you'll begin to understand that it's you who can make the

> > >difference in your own life, that you can stop drinking destructively,

> >even

> > >stop drinking indefinitely if you like, as opposed to being at the whim

> >of

> > >a

> > >disease. I know it's a scary thought accepting that it's you who've

>been

> > >going the drink bender haywire routine and not a mythological disease

> > >causing you to behave in that fashion.

> > >

> > > > I had nothing else to try and a therapist I had been seeing until

> > >recently, suggested I try it again? Why I inquired? Well > you stayed

> >sober

> > >for 5 years there before, Right? was the answer!

> > >

> > >Bravo on this one. If a therapist isn't helping it's time to get a new

> > >one.

> > >Have you considered a therapist open to more than just the 12 steps? I

> > >believe there are a few members of this list who can give you a start

>in

> > >finding one.

> > >

> > > > Certainly, I understand the rage you must feel. I understand that

> > > > initially you would want to direct it at me, but, I have just had

> > >enough.

> > >

> > >It isn't you it's what you've been taught to believe. I don't like the

> >way

> > >that sounds but you get the idea.

> > >

> > > > The last time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid,

> > >fatherless. Do you begin to get the picture? I can't

> > > > afford another relapse, because I am not sure if I will make it! but

> > >thank

> > >you for your kind words!

> > >

> > >I know this is going to sound cold and indifferent to you but here it

> >goes.

> > >If you can't afford another relapse then don't have one. Stop

>drinking.

> > >Period. AA indirectly and irresponsibly taught you that you couldn't

> >stop

> > >once you've started because you have a disease. So the sooner you stop

> > >believing in that disease the better off you'll be Big. Ken and a

>couple

> > >others have given you references to start you out.

> > >

> > >There's one thing I don't understand though. Why, if you were feeling

> >this

> > >about AA, do you defend it so vehemently?

> > >

> > > >> --

> > > > CWB

> > >

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

August 3, 2000

I don't feel rage toward you Big Smile. I don't blame AA for my problems

with alcohol but I detest the way AAers are taught to conform to AA doctirne

and then lie about it to newcomers and " slippers " . I understand where

you are coming from with this last post too. A year ago I started finding

out that there was a lot more out there then just AA. Imagine the scene in

the Truman Show when Jim Carey's character finds out he had been inside an

artficial world where people lied to him.

Like you I tried to hang onto my desperate belief in AA doctrine for a

while. It was terrifying at first to think that AA was just a bunch of

hocus pocus because I thought that I had the disease of alcoholism and that

I was absolutely powerless to do anything about it. The alternatives out

there like SMART and RR said the opposite so they couldn't possibly help me.

I did talk to some AA members and even a counseler about RR and SMART and I

was told that they were poison to my recovery.

Of course I wouldn't want you to relapse and hurt your family. I am a

fairly compassionate guy with everyone, even the " earth people " who don't go

to AA. I didn't learn that in AA or believe that I have to help someone

else in order to get sobriety in return. I just find that one of the good

parts of life is helping others. If you really are trying to learn

something then try just reading some of the posts. I know I haven't said

anything about my experience in AA that doesn't happen at meetings all over.

Maybe you can learn that you don't have to ignore the problems with AA in

accordance with the tradition of " principles before personalities " . Maybe

you could do something to help people for whom AA is not the answer rather

than continuing to tell people that they are powerless to do anything for

themselve and that AA is the best or only way to stop drinking or using

other drugs.

Digest Number 255

> >

> > Maybe you will respond to my message to you Big Smile. Even though this

is

> > sort of a two-person dialogue, I thought I'd interject here a bit. I've

had

> > quite a few AAers tell me that they wish I had " hit rock bottom " when I

was

> > in graduate school. They had these little smug looks on their faces

when

> > they told me that. I often wonder why exactly people would ask me every

> > time they saw me how much time I had. (I know Big Smile, they wanted to

> > know so that they could try and relate to where I was at in my recovery)

> > Maybe that was just oversensitivity on my part but I swear I culd see a

> > gleam in their eyes as they waited for my response. I guess had I

> > fullfilled their wishes I would have been willing to accept their

beliefs,

> > therefore helping to confirm in their minds the basis of their sobriety.

> >

> > Many, many times at AA meetings I have heard a person speak of a

" relapse "

> > and then several members thanked that person for drinking so that they

> > wouldn't have to. That happened to me on several occasions. I was

thanked,

> > I guess, for being the sacrificial lamb, that their God decided would

drink

> > for the benefit of the " Chosen Few " .

> >

> > On one occasion I " went back " to AA and once again humiliated myself by

> > raising my hand to say I relapsed or by going up in fornt of everyone to

get

> > another 24 hour chip. I suppose I can look at my humiliation as a sort

of

> > healthy response from that responsible part of me that didn't really

believe

> > the " it was the disease that made me drink " excuse. Anyway, I had some

guy,

> > a typical 10+ year AA guru, tell me " better you than me " ! After that

guy

> > there were the usual talk about me not being rigorously honest, not

being

> > willing, etc. I had a real nice guilt trip and bout of hopelessness and

> > depression after that. Honestly, I hope I never see that guy again

because

> > I wouldn't want to have to control the rage that I know I'll feel. Of

> > course, I could always blame my " disease " if I were to cause him

physical

> > harm, couldn't I?

>

August 3, 2000

What's up with egroups again? This one was really late in coming through.

Hey There Judith:

I did the snippage routine as some of the items the original message

discussed have been resolved.

hey that was a pretty good episode. Dathon the alien captain wisks Picard to

his planet's surface to fight a beast that in Dathon's mythology two leaders

worked together to kill subsequently bringing their peoples together.

Everything about their society is related to their mythology including their

use of metaphors based on their mythology to communicate with each other.

I had to look it up but I'll be damned if that isn't about right on the

money. I agree with you Star trek has always been about social commentary

thanks to Rodenberry. Remember the original star trek the black white guys

where 1/2 the population was black on the right side and white on the left

and the other 1/2 was the opposite. To you and me they were both black and

white to them it meant the destruction of their planet due to irreconcilable

differences. That was during the 60's hmmm wonder what was going on in this

country back then.

RE: Digest Number 255

>

> And then I read on and saw his Star Trek reference, and thought perhaps he

> could learn a lesson in communication from the Next Generation

> episode about

> " Darmak and Chalad at Tanagra " . Anyone know the one I'm talking

> about? It's

> incredible, I'm not a trekkie but a few of those Next Gen shows

> just tear my

> heart out.

>

> judith

>

August 3, 2000

: I swear, I've seen every episode of the original Star Trek. I

remember watching it on Friday night, when it was first on the air back in

what, 1969? my older brother was totally into it. And it's been on in

syndication almost continuously. I remember the black/white one,

Gorshen (the Riddler on Batman, I think?) played a lead role. Roddenberry's

wife, Majel Barrett, is quite a woman. Stuck by him before he was a legend.

I loved her as Deanna Troi's mother in Next Gen.

You know what else that black/white Star Trek reminds me of? Dr. Seuss's

star bellied sneetches.

judith

>

> What's up with egroups again? This one was really late in coming

through.

>

> Hey There Judith:

>

> I did the snippage routine as some of the items the original message

> discussed have been resolved.

> hey that was a pretty good episode. Dathon the alien captain wisks Picard

to

> his planet's surface to fight a beast that in Dathon's mythology two

leaders

> worked together to kill subsequently bringing their peoples together.

> Everything about their society is related to their mythology including

their

> use of metaphors based on their mythology to communicate with each other.

>

> I had to look it up but I'll be damned if that isn't about right on the

> money. I agree with you Star trek has always been about social

commentary

> thanks to Rodenberry. Remember the original star trek the black white

guys

> where 1/2 the population was black on the right side and white on the

left

> and the other 1/2 was the opposite. To you and me they were both black

and

> white to them it meant the destruction of their planet due to

irreconcilable

> differences. That was during the 60's hmmm wonder what was going on in

this

> country back then.

>

> RE: Digest Number 255

> >

> > And then I read on and saw his Star Trek reference, and thought perhaps

he

> > could learn a lesson in communication from the Next Generation

> > episode about

> > " Darmak and Chalad at Tanagra " . Anyone know the one I'm talking

> > about? It's

> > incredible, I'm not a trekkie but a few of those Next Gen shows

> > just tear my

> > heart out.

> >

> > judith

> >

>

_______________________________________________________

Say Bye to Slow Internet!

August 3, 2000

Hey Doug,

The good news seems to be that nowadays we can see when we

are headed for despair and can take hold of the reins to make

positive changes for ourselves. Even if we " visit " the be-

haviors of our past now and then, we no longer have to stay

within them until the walls of life are crashing down around

us. It's a choice.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

>Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 10:16:17 GMT

>

>Sue,

>

>The pot question is of relevance to me and my case. I smoke pot pretty

>well

>all day long at the moment and have done so for quite some time. I'm not

>especially happy about this (slight brain-scrambling, but more

>uncomfortable

>about money I ought to devote more sensibly and the bad effects on the

>respiratory system of inhaling the smoke of burning vegetables, tobacco and

>cannabis together in my case). I don't smoke an awful lot -- little

>sprinklings in cigarettes to tune of 1.5 grammes of north African hash per

>diem is my routine, but I do enjoy a heavier session when there's good

>company for it. I have not been a " problem drinker " for some time and was

>so only at a few times of acute crisis years. I've been chiefly abstinent

>for the last three years. I had a major life-change recently -- unhappily

>(for me)divorced last year, move out of family home in the wilds into flat

>near city centre, and I have had two or three brushes with the booze since

>last November. The last one went on for about a month (it showed in this

>group -- deranged posts, etc., and some real help in private from some of

>my

>good friends), developing from couple of drinks a couple of times a week

>through to 8 drinks a day dependency and acute discomfort. I managed to

>snap out totally as prayer (I am a Christian) and enlightened self-interest

>prevailed. I do not want to drink. I only associate it with anaesthesia

>from emotional pain or boredom. I have terrible after-effects, noticeable

>on 2 or 3 drinks, crippling after, say, 6. It sets up a train of

>semi-permanent depression, the metabolic downer-cycle described so clearly

>in a biochemically inclined post recently, and costs a lot more than the

>dope. I have a problem with the way society is so alcohol-adjusted. To be

>on a working social and socio-sexual wavelength you need to have alcohol in

>your system to be " normal " . I miss out because I find boozy environments

>uncongenial if I'm not boozed, and perhaps my habitual mild stonedness

>accentuates this difficulty. I do see cannabis as radically different from

>alcohol, despite the fact devout stepheads ultimately shove them together.

>(One of the most sickening XA public lies/flagrant idiocies is that there

>is

>no difference between types of drug -- eat a gramme of hash and a gramme of

>smack and the difference will be readily apparent.) My use of it is

>strictly a matter of choice, the same choice I exercise effectively

>(fingers

>crossed) re abstinence from alcohol. My circumstances are not in some ways

>enviable and I do use hash as a sort of meliorative in adjusting the tone

>of

>a " reality " I'm not to too happy with. But my " reality " is socially

>determined in these connections as well as being internally generated. I

>do

>not think I have a disease that compels me to use or abuse cannabis. I

>would almost plead psycho-medicinal use, though I feel that's a bit of a

>cop-out for sheer reluctance to do without the stuff or modify my habits.

>I

>get more gain than pain from dope at the moment, and it can be a useful

>state-inducer for my creative work, which, as a poet, etc., and

>experimental

>graphic artist, seems sometimes to gain from cannabis. Cannabis can also

>induce a fairly stultifying inertia, but that's quite rare with me, and

>generally only happens when there are other factors bringing me down. If

>I'm

>feeling energetic, dope can equally propel me into a breath-takingly manic

>state, which can be disturbing, like its polar oppsite downer. I've been

>rather inert this week, though am snapping out of it, as I have been

>feeling emotionally cleaned out, as ever, following the departure of my

>young children after a happy week with me to go 100 miles back to their

>stepNazi Mum. She is a case in poin here. After having been an all-out

>drink-drugs raver she got XA and was totally abstinent from everything for

>nine years. She then sneaked a smoke of dope when visiting a friend and

>returned home saying we should smoke as our little treat. So we did for

>three years -- chiefly just at weekends, though we sometimes got stoned

>every night. Great for our already excellent sex-lives. No problem.

>Except when life took a turn for the worse with business failure, cash

>running out, illness in family, she went into a moral panic and began

>freaking out after smoking. She went back to NA (having cut right down to

>only one CODA per week!) and became a total disease theorist. Dope smoking

>instantly banned, and me on the divorce list for failure to comply. I

>think

>she had a psycho-reaction to her circumstances of a psychedelic nature and

>had to face certain things in her past and present she recoiled from. She

>fled from her own mind to the steps and has never come back. I've always

>wanted her back, but part of my attitude has been to say I'm damned if I'll

>stop smoking dope as a condition for a woman who put a gun to the family's

>head and pulled the trigger. So I take a sort of a stand on dope, very

>deluded, thin ice all round, but a place I happen to like being. I'd admit

>I'm an addict if it meant anything beyond expressing vague social

>disapproval for my condition. It's choice and I choose it. I'm very clear

>on wishing not to drink. I feel I have a different relationship with

>alcohol, which is a properly addictive drug. I've smoked and sniffed smack

>a couple of times over the years and I find with both booze and smack that

>there's a sort of cellular compulsion to repeat the experience, they are

>both fiercely addictive drugs which leave the body vibrating unpleasantly

>as

>they depart. Cannabis is not like that. I can smoke heavily then go out

>of

>the house with no dope and stay out all day without noticing I " need "

>anything. On days when I don't smoke till late afternoon, I'm not

>struggling against the metabolic plea for a repeat dose that I get with

>booze. I wouldn't recommend anyone to smoke cannabis, but it sure is the

>lesser of two evils for me (and I believe would be for Western society as a

>whole), a wholly different kettle of fish to Al K Hol. I'm sure that in

>different circumstances I would have different habits -- I only smoked in

>evenings or at weekends when in a more normative marital/domestic

>environment. I have also used it daily -- orally in ground up form --

>without smoking. And would like to get on to such a basis again. Trouble

>is there's the " smoking behaviour " , which means the tobacco component of

>the

>smokes I make. I think nicotine, like booze and smack, is a viciously

>addicitve drug, more invidious, more subliminal, but famously a S-O-B to

>kick. At the moment, I'm just too strung out to give non-smokming another

>try, but really would like to get free of that behaviour.

>

>So, I have gone on at some length. Make what you will of it. It's an

>honest attempt to cover the ground you opened. Regard it as Doug the

>born-again-dope-fiend coming out!

>

>.

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

> >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:30:50 GMT

> >

> > Sue, your comments are very interesting.. I would like to talk to you

> >sometime about your comments.. I am 5 and a half years with out alcohol..

>I

> >would like to try and smoke pot.. I don't want to drink although alcohol

> >used to be my drug of choice.. I don't want to get drunk but I would like

>a

> >nice relaxing buzz.. am I screwed up ?

> >I have really prospered in my sobriety.. I don't want to mess it up but I

> >just have this urge to get a little high .. I don't want to hurt any one

> >especially not my self .. I was in a very abusive marriage and I self

> >medicated myself .. yes I believe I am an alcoholic.. I don't think I

> >should

> >drink.. but I'm not sure about the pot thing.. any thing you could

> >contribute would help... I hate AA .. Hate it

> >I know that's a strong word.. but I had to leave I couldn't take it any

> >more.. I am still clean and sober today .. thanks for listening

> >

> > >

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

> > >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 03:16:03 GMT

> > >

> > > Big Smile,

> > >

> > > I don't want your kid to grow up without a father because

> > > his father believes that he is powerless. If the time

> > > comes that you do take that " first drink " again, please

> > > try to throw those AA thoughts out the window. They will

> > > only lead you to full blown relapse. You DO NOT have a

> > > disease that can make you do anything. You are not

> > > powerless.

> > > Does AA harm? Absolutely. I have a dear friend drinking

> > > himself to death because AA told him that he has a disease

> > > and cannot help it. He believes this great cop-out.

> > > After all, he is no longer responsible for his behavior

> > > with this insane belief. He believes he cannot stop.

> > >

> > > AA's teachings of powerlessness are killing many. And if you

> > > believe them, they just may kill you, too. Then your kid

> > > really won't have a father.....Will this be because of

> > > a " disease " ..... or because you BELIEVED you had one?

> > >

> > > Take responsibility for your behavior and you will be free.

> > > Of course that is very hard to do when AA teaaches you not

> > > to trust yourself. (do you realize how dangerous and

> > > sick that is?) OF COURSE YOU CAN TRUST YOURSELF.

> > > You really do know what is best for you. Please give

> > > yourself a chance.

> > >

> > > Get rid of the label that the cult gave you. You may have

> > > been alcohol dependant or a problem drinker in the past,

> > > but are you now? I, myself used to have quite a drinking

> > > problem. Today, I do not. What does that make me? Someone

> > > who has overcome a difficulty, for Christs sake. No

> > > more, no less.

> > >

> > > Being truly free is being free from alcohol and AA.

> > >

> > > Hope you can break free from their hold.

> > >

> > > Sue

> > >

> > > >

> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> > > >Subject: RE: Digest Number 255

> > > >Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:31:46 -0500

> > > >

> > > > > Re: Digest Number 255

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you for your honesty!

> > > >

> > > >I have yet to see anyone on this list lie to you.

> > > >

> > > > >You see, I went back to AA after my last bout,

> > > > > because I had no idea where else to go!

> > > >

> > > >I can commiserate. The options aren't exactly trumpeted from the

> > >ceilings

> > > >in AA.

> > > >

> > > > > I fell upon this list by chance, so here we are talking. I don't

> >claim

> > > >to

> > > >have any of the answers.

> > > >

> > > >Not trying to be confrontational here but earlier you did and it was

> >AA.

> > > >

> > > > >I know I have a lot of pent up anger and resentment towards myself

> >and

> > >to

> > > >AA as well. I mean 5 years in there before did >>

> > > > > not rehabilitate my behavior.

> > > >

> > > >That's probably because AA isn't about behavior modification it's

>about

> > > >finding God and believing that he'll intervene to stop the disease

>from

> > > >progressing as long as you're working the steps.

> > > >

> > > > >Was it futile to think that it would now? I don't know.

> > > >

> > > >I know this was posed as a hypothetical question. But... Only you

>can

> > > >answer that one. Past experience doesn't necessarily have to be your

> > >guide

> > > >here. I think you'll find if you loosen up on the disease strings and

> > > >accept

> > > >that problem drinking is a behavior, more specifically your behavior,

> >and

> > > >not a disease you'll begin to understand that it's you who can make

>the

> > > >difference in your own life, that you can stop drinking

>destructively,

> > >even

> > > >stop drinking indefinitely if you like, as opposed to being at the

>whim

> > >of

> > > >a

> > > >disease. I know it's a scary thought accepting that it's you who've

> >been

> > > >going the drink bender haywire routine and not a mythological disease

> > > >causing you to behave in that fashion.

> > > >

> > > > > I had nothing else to try and a therapist I had been seeing until

> > > >recently, suggested I try it again? Why I inquired? Well > you stayed

> > >sober

> > > >for 5 years there before, Right? was the answer!

> > > >

> > > >Bravo on this one. If a therapist isn't helping it's time to get a

>new

> > > >one.

> > > >Have you considered a therapist open to more than just the 12 steps?

>I

> > > >believe there are a few members of this list who can give you a start

> >in

> > > >finding one.

> > > >

> > > > > Certainly, I understand the rage you must feel. I understand that

> > > > > initially you would want to direct it at me, but, I have just had

> > > >enough.

> > > >

> > > >It isn't you it's what you've been taught to believe. I don't like

>the

> > >way

> > > >that sounds but you get the idea.

> > > >

> > > > > The last time , I was in a coma for 4 days. I almost left my kid,

> > > >fatherless. Do you begin to get the picture? I can't

> > > > > afford another relapse, because I am not sure if I will make it!

>but

> > > >thank

> > > >you for your kind words!

> > > >

> > > >I know this is going to sound cold and indifferent to you but here it

> > >goes.

> > > >If you can't afford another relapse then don't have one. Stop

> >drinking.

> > > >Period. AA indirectly and irresponsibly taught you that you couldn't

> > >stop

> > > >once you've started because you have a disease. So the sooner you

>stop

> > > >believing in that disease the better off you'll be Big. Ken and a

> >couple

> > > >others have given you references to start you out.

> > > >

> > > >There's one thing I don't understand though. Why, if you were

>feeling

> > >this

> > > >about AA, do you defend it so vehemently?

> > > >

> > > > >> --

> > > > > CWB

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

> > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com

> > >

> >

> >________________________________________________________________________

> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

August 4, 2000

Until very recently I believed that. Man , you people on this list are

really the greatest. You have helped me a lot in the past week. I am

learning a newer, healthier way to recover and I feel in great part, that I

owe it to a lot of you, that I pissed off with my " pompous assholish "

attitude. But you were patient and responded with the TRUTH. That is what I

needed, to somehow get over the hump of not feeling lost after leaving the

AA step madness. Those people really did a number on my brain. A few of you

talked me down. You know who you are. My sincere thanks!

It was you guys that taught me that relapse was part of addiction, not of

recovery. That is such a revelation, you have no idea. I now I sound like a

dumb kid right now, but what the hell?

Fear not! I am sending you all your own personal can of asshole repellant so

you can deal with the future problem children like me with a good squirt.

Please don't ex me from your list for just wanting to learn a better way,

even though my approach was very heavy handed and stupid, I know!

thanks again!

--

Regards,

CWB

> Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date: 2 Aug 2000 20:29:34 -0000

> Subject: Digest Number 255

>

> (for $ and cultexpansion purposes) occasionally slipping into the forest

> chugging away because as we hear " relapse is a NORMAL part of recovery

August 4, 2000

Sue,

You're right, and thanks for pulling that much sense from my protracted

scrawl --

" nowadays we can see when we

>are headed for despair and can take hold of the reins to make

>positive changes for ourselves "

-- that's something I never heard in the rewms, and if I've learned it then

I've chiefly myself to thank, and, latterly, the back-up system of help,

courage, and original good humour of 12stepfree,

Yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups