Hi..new member here!

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone!

I just joined this group yesterday..after searching for and reading sites

such as 'AA Deprogramming'.

I had no idea that these types of sites existed, and I came upon them by

accident. I am thrilled!

I first 'came into the rooms' in the early '80's, and I saw back then what

these sites are talking about....the programming aspects, etc. of these *a

meetings. I tried, at the time, to talk to my therapist about what I saw,

and she, despite not being a member herself, came back with pat answers --

and I began to invalidate to myself what I observed. What a shame!

I spent a lot of years in therapy, but very few in AA. I also have much to

say about therapy, but this is for another list and another time! However, I

will say this: In my way of thinking, we each of us has the ability to heal

from within from anything -- if only we would listen to our wise inner

voices. I do not now subscribe to any particular treatment or recovery

modality as I see strengths and weaknesses in all the 'newer' ones, and each

has far too much structure for me. What I do is affirm to myself my own

strengths, abilities, and qualities (via self-made tapes), exercise, and take

herbal supplements (like Milk Thistle for the liver, kava kava for the

nerves, etc.) and vitamins. I also try to eat healthy for me, which means lo

carbs, and hi protein.

I came upon this way of healing by reading a lot, and sifting out all that I

thought did not apply to me. It was a lengthy exercise in believing in my

own judgement.

So far, it seems to be working, and I now want to become active in promoting

the notion of self-efficacy...that all of us have inside of us.

This list so far seems really great! No one lives in a vacuum, nor should.

Therefore, a sense of community is important...at least for the sharing of

ideas and for the feeling that one is not alone. I think I have found a very

like-minded community here.

Thanks so much!!!

Take care..

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hi ...sure is...at least in health food stores. I have also seen it

in supermarkets. I don't find it to be an intoxicant...but is does seem to

calm my nerves without any side effects. I also drink it in a tea at

night...there are herbal teas available with the ingredient..

Take care...

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan...thanks so much for the welcome!

It sure hurts to hear first-hand about the 'hold' that AA places on its

members...it permeates every aspect of a person's life. As far as I believe,

the same can be said for any non-12-step recovery group that places a label

on its members -- and in so doing creates a 'specialness' kind of

atmosphere.

We are all just people doing the best we can with strengths and

weaknesses...and, while 'like attracts like' in respect to life experiences,

if this 'like' begins to exclude others who do not share similar experiences

or characteristics, then I think this is very sad. And, this is what I have

seen happen in group after group. It becomes a very limiting way to live.

So, it sounds like you have decided to expand your horizons by going to

school and discarding your self-limiting past...I know you will make new

friends...but I appreciate how hard this must be right now.

Anyway, did you find that AA friends were true 'friends', or did you find

that they were friends so long as you followed the program?

thanks again, Jan!!

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

I agree here that for some, a structured group may be the answer in the

beginning.

What I am speaking of here, however, is a 'way of life'...which is far

different than joining a group to begin the healing process.

The danger I see is that people can eventually identify with the particular

label the group operates under ('alcoholic', 'abuse survivor',

'co-dependent', etc.), so much so, that they may never get in touch with

their total being, which is, after all, far more than any one label can

describe.

To put it another way, a refreshing way to look at things (at least as far as

I am concerned, is to investigate the 'healthy' aspects of our beings. We

all have them, but we often overlook them in favor of trying to 'fix' the

aspects that have interferred with living life to it's fullest. By so doing,

we can begin to honor all that we are, and we can even more easily accept and

modify, or change, our less-healthy aspects -- without feeling 'damaged',

'unfit', or 'broken'.

Another by-product I see is that damaging and unhealthy relationships would

be eventually non-existent, because the act of the honoring the self

precludes hurting the self. In addition, the richness of diversity would be

part and parcel of one's life...

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hi Jan...

Wow, you have eloquently voiced many of my concerns about AA. And, you have

validated my thinking about the nature of AA 'friends'. In my opinion, a

true friend remains supportive of another, regardless of whether he or she

agrees with what another is doing. You know, like true 'live and let

live'..not the kind that AA practices.

I woke this morning listening to a sermon being preached on TV...and it hit

me like a ton of bricks that AA is doing the same thing that many religions

are doing...encouraging dependency on that institution by instilling fear of

the consequences of non-adherence. And, AA also 'passes the hat' -- just

like many churches do. So many churches are now very wealthy, and they have

gotten this way by guaranteeing membership thru subtle and not so subtle

fear-based messages. AA surely does the same thing, and from what I

understand, AA is a pretty wealthy organization.

This does not set well with me at all!

Are you in school for psychology or child development? If so, we have

something in common. I was in a doctoral program for child delelopment a few

years back. Unfortunately, the program I chose presented theories that I

felt did not honor the capabilities of the child...so I chose to leave. I

gave up trying to find a more progressive program....I know they are out

there!

Working with computers these days!!

Thanks so much, Jan, for your honesty and courage in expressing your feelings

about AA!

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hello Ellen,

Good to hear from you. I understood kava to be a intoxicant used in

Polynesia. I'd be interested to try it for sedative properties. Is it

easily available?

See you around,

.

>From: intelle@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Hi..new member here!

>Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 11:59:32 EDT

>

>Hi everyone!

>

>I just joined this group yesterday..after searching for and reading sites

>such as 'AA Deprogramming'.

>

>I had no idea that these types of sites existed, and I came upon them by

>accident. I am thrilled!

>

>I first 'came into the rooms' in the early '80's, and I saw back then what

>these sites are talking about....the programming aspects, etc. of these *a

>meetings. I tried, at the time, to talk to my therapist about what I saw,

>and she, despite not being a member herself, came back with pat answers --

>and I began to invalidate to myself what I observed. What a shame!

>

>I spent a lot of years in therapy, but very few in AA. I also have much to

>say about therapy, but this is for another list and another time! However,

>I

>will say this: In my way of thinking, we each of us has the ability to

>heal

>from within from anything -- if only we would listen to our wise inner

>voices. I do not now subscribe to any particular treatment or recovery

>modality as I see strengths and weaknesses in all the 'newer' ones, and

>each

>has far too much structure for me. What I do is affirm to myself my own

>strengths, abilities, and qualities (via self-made tapes), exercise, and

>take

>herbal supplements (like Milk Thistle for the liver, kava kava for the

>nerves, etc.) and vitamins. I also try to eat healthy for me, which means

>lo

>carbs, and hi protein.

>

>I came upon this way of healing by reading a lot, and sifting out all that

>I

>thought did not apply to me. It was a lengthy exercise in believing in my

>own judgement.

>

>So far, it seems to be working, and I now want to become active in

>promoting

>the notion of self-efficacy...that all of us have inside of us.

>

>This list so far seems really great! No one lives in a vacuum, nor should.

>Therefore, a sense of community is important...at least for the sharing of

>ideas and for the feeling that one is not alone. I think I have found a

>very

>like-minded community here.

>

>Thanks so much!!!

>

>Take care..

>Ellen

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Ellen,

My name is Jan and I'm an..........er, I'm ME!

I signed up for the groups last week and it is great to know there are

others out there who have left AA and are movin' right along in their

lives without the awful restrictions that AA places on a person's

autonomy and sanity.

Miss some of my old friends. Run into them around town and it's good to

visit with them and exchange pleasantries and we always part with a

" give me a call " and so forth. But there's that bridge now and I guess

I put it up and really don't want to get into it with them. What's the

point?

My exit has left me with two close friends I've had for years and they

are nt in recovery. And as they live out of state I' m in a real lonely

spot right now as my social life revolved around AA.

Quit my job a month ago to go back to school so I don't see my work

buddies very often, either.

But like most low points in life I've learned to hang in there and keep

plugging away till things get better.

One good thing about leaving the tables and maybe the best thing, is

that whatever do, wherever I go and whoever I meet, I no longer carry

the label " recovering Alcohoic " with me.

I'm on my own non-dieased recognizance and it feels good.

Welcome...

[Guest guest]

Ellen,

Thanks. I'm going to try it when I catch up with UK availability. I was

using valerian recently which is herbal shop stuff and I found it very

useful -- not quite a " drug " but subliminal sedative effects that I needed.

I've also started taking powdered Siberian ginseng, as a tea, which is

promising, though I've only had one dose so far.

best wishes,

.

>From: intelle@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Hi..new member here!

>Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 13:01:30 EDT

>

>Hi ...sure is...at least in health food stores. I have also seen it

>in supermarkets. I don't find it to be an intoxicant...but is does seem to

>calm my nerves without any side effects. I also drink it in a tea at

>night...there are herbal teas available with the ingredient..

>

>Take care...

>-Ellen

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

>We are all just people doing the best we can with strengths and >weaknesses...and, while 'like attracts like' in respect to life experiences, >if this 'like' begins to exclude others who do not share similar experiences >or characteristics, then I think this is very sad. And, this is what I have >seen happen in group after group. It becomes a very limiting way to live.

At this risk of sounding like one of the brain dead, I would observe that for a person who seriously attempting to recover, there are a lot of people who should be excluded from his/her life. Study after study has shown that of the people who come into support groups to recover (and many never set in one and recover more or less spontaneously) that recovery rates are better for those who stick it out. Of course this observation is somewhat self-serving, because those who stick it out may well have been those who would have recovered had they never come into the structured group.

Still, I think it is clear that some sort of support is beneficial in the process of recovery. For one thing it simply helps addicted people understand the nature of their addiction more efficiently and quickly, thereby avoiding some major problems (would that I had practiced all I had learned before I was forced to).

There are also very great differences and purposes and methodolgies in the various support systems how springing up. None are as rigid as AA for the most part, but several have their own culture as well. I have given up AA but I do have peripheral participation in a few groups and I find them helpful. They do not solve all my problems. I still have to do that myself, but they help me keep things in perspective and to set my priorities better. They also remind me of the catastrophes which will ensnare me if I unleash my addiction.

[Guest guest]

Hi again Ellen,

You know, I can't say whether they would be true friends or not. That

some of them really cared for me I have no doubts. But I must keep in

mind that being a follower of Bill W. by necessity puts them in the

positionof placing their " sobriety " and the group ahead of whatever need

I have being just a human being outside of the program.

When a person leaves the tables they are blessed with the old, go ahead,

but we're always here for you should you not suffer a wet-brain,

incarceration or death. If you walk away sober and stay that way, you

are only in denial. See the catch here. They must stay aloof from me

out of love and let me suffer until I " see the light " and come crawling

back.

An analogy.....years ago mothers of infants were told to not pick up a

screaming infant because babies must be trained on a feeding schedule.

Think, of mothers going against their basic natural instincts to nurture

and calm a screaming infant for his/her own good. I tink it is the

same for a lot of decent AA's who stay away from out-of-the-loop members

because of their basically flawed group reasonings.

I hate AA. I hate it for a lot of reasons. I hate it because it's a

religion and no one in the program will admit it. I hate it because it

calls " alcoholism " is a " disease " and treatment consists of moral

improvement and faith. I hate it because getting " honest " means coming

to terms with the fact that you are basically a flawed human being

without decency and instrisically different than your fellow man. I hate

it because it immobilizes people against feeling anger, a very necessary

part of human living. I hate it because it demands tolerance and

forgiveness without justice. I could go on and on but I think you get

the picture.

I think AA and the steps are good for the criminally minded, sexual

deviates like child molesters and predators, serial killers and the

like, even tho I have yet to see some of these scumbags change much,

even in AA. But at least they could be monitored.

Personally, I think most people who enter the rooms of their own accord

know instinctively that their picking up a drink is immoral and all they

want is to be told how to quit, or moderate.

To be told that pickig up a drink is not immoral in their case because

they pick it up because they are suffering from a

'disease " and that they can't, absolutely can't, quit, but can only

hope for a daily reprieve from alcohol through the " Grace of God and the

Fellowship of AA " is unconsionable in my opinion.

But on it goes.......

[Guest guest]

Bravo Ellen! Well said!

As long as a human denies the basic goodness and decency that he is

capable of outside " some other " to rescue him/her, the longer the

bondage to ignorance, fear and superstition.

Love you girl......

[Guest guest]

" necessity puts them in the position of placing their " sobriety " and the

group ahead of whatever need I have being just a human being "

" I hate it because it demands tolerance and forgiveness without justice "

these points are central to the reasons I despise XA, their " necessity " of

the " selfish programme " that will shatter a family rather than allow the

individual to budge from a position of security/sobriety in group dogma, and

their woefully inadequate idealism that as you note annulls the need for

justice in the name of a lip-service forgiveness.

The rest of your post is a sizzlingly articulate denunciation of XA. All

they hope for you if you leave the stepNazi 1000 year recovery Reich is that

you'll die in the gutter ASAP to help cement group unity,

yours

.

>From: Tinquerbelle@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Hi..new member here!

>Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 14:19:09 -0400 (EDT)

>

>Hi again Ellen,

>

>You know, I can't say whether they would be true friends or not. That

>some of them really cared for me I have no doubts. But I must keep in

>mind that being a follower of Bill W. by necessity puts them in the

>positionof placing their " sobriety " and the group ahead of whatever need

>I have being just a human being outside of the program.

>

>When a person leaves the tables they are blessed with the old, go ahead,

>but we're always here for you should you not suffer a wet-brain,

>incarceration or death. If you walk away sober and stay that way, you

>are only in denial. See the catch here. They must stay aloof from me

>out of love and let me suffer until I " see the light " and come crawling

>back.

>

>An analogy.....years ago mothers of infants were told to not pick up a

>screaming infant because babies must be trained on a feeding schedule.

>Think, of mothers going against their basic natural instincts to nurture

>and calm a screaming infant for his/her own good. I tink it is the

>same for a lot of decent AA's who stay away from out-of-the-loop members

>because of their basically flawed group reasonings.

>

>I hate AA. I hate it for a lot of reasons. I hate it because it's a

>religion and no one in the program will admit it. I hate it because it

>calls " alcoholism " is a " disease " and treatment consists of moral

>improvement and faith. I hate it because getting " honest " means coming

>to terms with the fact that you are basically a flawed human being

>without decency and instrisically different than your fellow man. I hate

>it because it immobilizes people against feeling anger, a very necessary

>part of human living. I hate it because it demands tolerance and

>forgiveness without justice. I could go on and on but I think you get

>the picture.

>

>I think AA and the steps are good for the criminally minded, sexual

>deviates like child molesters and predators, serial killers and the

>like, even tho I have yet to see some of these scumbags change much,

>even in AA. But at least they could be monitored.

>

>Personally, I think most people who enter the rooms of their own accord

>know instinctively that their picking up a drink is immoral and all they

>want is to be told how to quit, or moderate.

>To be told that pickig up a drink is not immoral in their case because

>they pick it up because they are suffering from a

>'disease " and that they can't, absolutely can't, quit, but can only

>hope for a daily reprieve from alcohol through the " Grace of God and the

>Fellowship of AA " is unconsionable in my opinion.

>

>But on it goes.......

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

good point, Carl.

That's why we are here, mind to mind, if you will. Freethinkers, in a

way, who need ties that bind, but in a healthy way, without

self-denegration.

I read your earlier comments and couldn't comment because you are where

you are and it's a very painful place. How could I possibly cheer you

up? I wouldn't dare try. But if I were with you, I'd just sit and

listen and if you needed to be touched, I'd hold you.

But I see that you are making the effort to live productively...on your

own, every little effort is to be commended.

My non-comment earlier is not beause of where you are but because I

fear any comment to your positon would sound hollow.

You really are not alone.

[Guest guest]

I have a Masters Degree In Child Development in that I raised four

children by following my conscience and my absolute awe of children

awakening to their world. I respected that above any other authority

and threw out Dr. Spocks book when my oldest was an infant.

They are not perfect, my children, but they ar autonomous and beholding

to no authority but their own reasonings. They are also very

hardworking, decent, law abiding citizens, each with a tongue-in-cheek

sense of humor.

I adore them....as you can certainly see.

I' going back to school to become a massage therapist. I love touch, I

love communicating to others through touch. I had so little of it

growing up and believe it to be a way of filling the gap between you

and me. Ah....the physical....shamed since time began and maybe the

salvation of asick world. Touch me, feel me, look in my eyes and

listen to me, and then kill me because I think differently than you.

I'm an idealist, too, I guess....

One thing I learned about being a mother. Children are not born eveil,

they are born ignorant of and vulnerable to a world which they do not

intrude upon, but which intrudes upon them. Life is their gift and I

have a responsibilityt to that life because it came from my body. To be

honest, I was frightened when I saw the individuality of that life.

Yet, as they developed, I saw my responsibility as a parent was to

leave them alone to discover their way i life by letting them follow

their own inner strivngs and let them know that by their own reasoninbgs

they could make moral decisions.

Yikes.....what a heretic I am.

Shame is not in their personal repretoire of personal values as far as I

know and they would laugh in your face if you suggested they should feel

it. But responsibility is big with them as is treating others with

decency is pretty evident, but if you screw them over, or attempt to,

watch out.

I wish I could have been my mother, I would never have been such a mess.

(ha!)

[Guest guest]

Jan...we have something else in common...I have four children also! Mine are

grown, but I still have one child living with me as he handicapped.

My own philosophy with my children was to 'let them be'...free to be what

they were intended to be. They sometimes thought I didn't care, but now they

realize that I wanted them to learn that the choices they make in life are

theirs...this is not to say that I didn't give advice when asked (and

sometimes when not asked when I saw danger involved)..

I really like your philosphy...and message therapy is a wonderful, wonderful

occupation! I myself have taken some Reiki healing classes, and I sometimes

think that this is what I would like to to...who knows!

this group sure does seem like a great place to be!

Take care..

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

I for one didn't go into AA because I felt I was doing anything "immoral." I felt as though I had been drinking because an intrinscally immoral world had been foisting a value system on little me and that it was totally explicable that I would drink to find relief. I needed a lot of relief because I had to deal with a lot of injustice.

I think it is a serious error to cast alcoholism in moral terms. Certainly some things we do are not moral, but we are not deliberately flouting moral laws. In many cases we are expressing a disdain for a system which we consider intrinsically immoral. This is a childish means for doing that and only we only destroy ourselves but no one ever said our actions were carefully considered totally reasonable actions when it comes to alcohol.

To cast alcoholism strictly in moral terms of free choice subjects alcoholics to the horrendous injustices of our justice system. Certainly some of us probably belong there. But many of us do not yet we are caught up in that mindless system nonetheless.There are far more effective methods of dealing with addiction than be transforming it primarily into a question of morality.

Personally, I think most people who enter the rooms of their own accordknow instinctively that their picking up a drink is immoral and all theywant is to be told how to quit, or moderate.To be told that pickig up a drink is not immoral in their case becausethey pick it up because they are suffering from a'disease" and that they can't, absolutely can't, quit, but can onlyhope for a daily reprieve from alcohol through the "Grace of God and theFellowship of AA" is unconsionable in my opinion.

[Guest guest]

Carl...

I agree with Jan in that to me, it is far, far better to realize that I do

have a choice (with all the freedom and moral obligation this ability to

choose entails), than to feel that I am forever doomed to keep looking over

my shoulder lest that 'cunning and baffling' devil catch me unawares because

I didn't 'work the program'.

The desire to drink does not arise from my environment; the desire to drink

arises from my reactions to my environment.

I believe assumption of responsibility for one's actions is freedom, and that

it is eternal self-victimization to believe that one is forever a captive of

one's 'disease'.

By the way, I do see a use for AA in that when one is just getting sober, it

can be very comforting to be given understanding and empaty in an AA

meeting. I know this helped me many times!

Carl...please take care...

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

Jan...Yes, this is a great site!!!

My son is 28, and has ADHD quite severely...however, he just completed tech

school and got a job on Friday. This is a wonderful thing, and I have been

taking pains to prepare him to live on his own (he doesn't drive...but we

live in an area where there are a lot of buses). He is doing better now than

he has every done in his life...and I am very, very proud of him! A lot of

his improvement and growth can be attributed to just loving him...he is very

lovable!

Actually, I am proud of all my kids...:-)

Did it every occur to you, Jan, how similar AA is to churches who teach their

congregations that they are sinners and must repent...and that they are born

that way?

I don't know, but when I look into the eyes of a new-born baby, I see what

heaven must be like...I certainly don't see a sinner!

Glad to make your acquaintance, Jan!

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I think you make some very good points. Yes, it is true that society does

very little to actually help the addict, but does a whole lot in the way of

punishment for behavior that it has contributed to. Yes, I think that

society contributes to addiction by instilling a sense of helplessness and

powerlessness into all of us (don't get me started about how I think society

does this...it would take several days to read!)...the addict just reacts to

this propaganda by developing and maintaining a dependency on a chemical.

Others develop dependencies on other things like sex, love, relationships,

work, exercise...you name it, there is someone dependent on it.

Society WANTS us to be dependent. The more dependent we are, the more we can

be manipulated, and the more those in power can remain in power.

What I am trying to say here is that a way to take back one's power back (and

freedom) is to assume responsibility for self. This is a very empowering

action...it says that the self is capable, competent, and wise enough to make

choices that are right for the individual. This action will not change the

environment (at least not right away), but it will provide the individual

with more of a 'weapon' to deal with the environment. If everyone did this,

the environment would eventually change for the benefit of all those who

comprise it.

I also agree that there may be a predisposition to abuse alcohol (as well as

drugs). I notice that my body reacts to simple carbs almost the same way it

reacts to alcohol....it craves them. I have to severely limit my intake of

carbs in general, and of simple carbs altogether in order for my body to be

in balance. I believe I have an allergy to these foods, as well as having an

allergy to alcohol. Food allergies result in cravings.

I am also allergic to penicillin...and I make sure that I don't take it. The

point here is that when one has the knowledge that consumption of a substance

will cause the body to go out of control, then this person can be said to be

responsible for putting that substance into the body. I am an alcoholic...I

have read as much as I could get my hands on about this condition. Did I

always remain sober? Of course not. But, it feels so much better now to

know that I really do have a choice...and that I am not the victim of a gene,

or of my environment.

-Ellen

[Guest guest]

Dear Carl,

This is my point.....I really can't see any way around it.

Where does the responsibility lie for drunken behavior? On a " disease "

or on personal choice to pick up a drink?

AA would say that degredation while drinking is the fault of " disease "

and the only way to stop this " insane " (immoral) behavior is through

faith in a " god " and moral improvement and adaily repreive from taking a

drink by the " grace of " god and the Fellowship of AA.) But if the

" disease " is the cause of moral deficiency, why treat the symptoms?

Why not just cure the " disease " and quit drinking for good based on a

moral choice (as in, I don't want to die from this stupid behavior and I

don't want to harm others beause of my choosing to drink)

AA says that picking up the first drink that leads to insanity is not my

fault but the behavior that ensues from intoxication is? Do you see the

dliemna I've got here. Further, that f I drink it is because I didn't

work the program (moral improvement) which means I'm not moral if I

choose to drink again. Are you beginning to grasp the insanity of this

thinking?

If I pick up a drink and swallow it, knowing that I may commit a crime

(driving while intoxicated, for example) and go ahead and do it anyway,

it is not my reponsibility if I end up killing someone on the highway.

It was my " disease "

rearinng it's ugly head.

I place no judgment on your reasons to escape reality and from the sound

of it, life has not been kind to you.

My gripe is with AA philosophy. It robs people of the right to make

moral choices by tellig them they can't help their immorality. That

they are " diseased " , instead of people who made stupid choices and from

those strpid choices have harmed themselves and others by deliberately

picking up a drink in a very selfish manner.

Behavior while in a drunken stupor is understandable. That one goes

ahead and dinks anyway with a history of insane behavior is a moral

choice, not a " disease " And those who accept the reasoning of moral

choice at least have a chance of individualtiy and autonomy. Those in

AA do not; they are forever chained to immobilization in their

" humility " and their " defects " .

[Guest guest]

Dear Doug,

I notice in my local paper (deep south, as deep as you can get without

hitting Pueto Rico) that there is a Chrisian AA group in town. Is this

what you are referring to as XA?

If so, I'm temptd to go to one of their meetings.

As a stealth heathen, of course. In this town, it wouldn't surprise me

to see the confederate flag and a few KKK emblems hung over the coffee

pot.

As an ex-AAer. I have no compulsion to anonymity and would love to

expose these fanatics for what they are.

I'm torn in a minor way because I have cared and been cared for by many

decent AA;'s over the years. But even in the most stable of groups,

and I'm talking 20, 30+ years of sobriety, I still see abuses of the

newcomer, mistreatment of those really suffering with problems in living

that left me non-plussed as to the heartlessness of the rigors of AA

demands.

AA denies people of free-thinking. It's sad but true.....

All those who are angry at mistreatment and injustice in their lives are

denied the right to be angry and the right to fight foir their civil

rights because they may jeopardize their sobriety.

I was disgusted. To deny another the right to his civil rights because

he is an " alcoholic " and dare not become engaged in controversy because

he can't afford the " dubvious luxery of anger " is horrifying in it's

implications.

If I wanted to take over the world and be Queen of Earth, I would have

all people go to Step Meetings and spend their time working the steps

and discussing their personal " issues " while I raped them of their

individuality and tld them I accepted their amends for my criminal

behavior.

But alas. I can't, because the treatment industry in this country beat

me to it!

[Guest guest]

I don't know how much you've read about alcoholism and addiction, but the

matter is not nearly so simple as you postulate. Your surmising that I have

suffered a great deal is quite correct. I have suffered far more and far

longer than most. To attribute this to the mere ornery desire to continue

with a selfish, immoral desire to drink is quite simplistic. The academic

literature continues to rage as to roots of alcoholism. Billions of dollars

rest on find the answser to that problem. Lives are ruined daily because of

it. If it were a simple matter getting people to make " moral " decisions do

you think we would be shipping thousands of people off the prisons daily

which they had been trying desperately to avoid?

I have not been on this list long but I notice a consensus of opinion

against the " disease " model. I don't subscribe to notion entirely myself.

But the research I have seen and certainly the experience of my own family

tells me that there is a strong genetic and social component to the ailment.

I have no doubt whatsoever on that. Once the phenomenon begins and alcohol

sinks its fangs into a person it is not at all easy for the preponderance of

alcoholics to shake it. A little prayer and slap on the hands will not

transform us into " moral " creatures. We have to learn to go against what

has become a integral part of us and to transform ourselves. Changing any

habit or form of behavior is difficult and addictions are especially

difficult to alter. A lecture on morality is totally ineffectual in

practically every instance.

Turning us into immoral beings is going to do little to cause us to want to

be sober. It is only going to affirm our sense of worthlessness and self

contempt. That is not going to get us sober nor does it reflect our true

nature.

I think most of us have a predisposition to alcohol born in us. This does

not mean we are diseased any more than a predisposition to breast cancer or

heart disease is a disease. It becomes a psychological and physical

condition, however, once we activate that predisposition. I didn't have my

first drink until I was 21. I didn't have my second drink until I was 22.

Within three months of beginning to drink I was a full blown alcoholic. My

experience is not unique by any means. In fact, it is quite common. My

morals didn't change during that time, by the way. Most people don't alter

their morals after about the age of eighteen as you may know. I attribute

my quick succombing to alcohol to a very strong genetic predisposition of

which I was unaware. I was then placed in circumstances where I had no

understanding of alcohol and no desire to learn about it. I attributed all

my problems to a myriad of other factors. Other problems were certainly

there unrelated to alcohol, but alcohol made them a great deal worse. It

became extraordinarily difficult to extricate myself from that condition, a

struggle I am now engaged in again. It is not a moral problem. All efforts

to force me to consider it as such have failed and will continue to do so.

I still consider my morality to be far more imbued with integrity than those

around me who are intent on making me suffer for moral failure. It is their

morality which is at skewed.

Re: Hi..new member here!

> Dear Carl,

>

> This is my point.....I really can't see any way around it.

>

>

> Where does the responsibility lie for drunken behavior? On a " disease "

> or on personal choice to pick up a drink?

>

> AA would say that degredation while drinking is the fault of " disease "

> and the only way to stop this " insane " (immoral) behavior is through

> faith in a " god " and moral improvement and adaily repreive from taking a

> drink by the " grace of " god and the Fellowship of AA.) But if the

> " disease " is the cause of moral deficiency, why treat the symptoms?

>

> Why not just cure the " disease " and quit drinking for good based on a

> moral choice (as in, I don't want to die from this stupid behavior and I

> don't want to harm others beause of my choosing to drink)

>

> AA says that picking up the first drink that leads to insanity is not my

> fault but the behavior that ensues from intoxication is? Do you see the

> dliemna I've got here. Further, that f I drink it is because I didn't

> work the program (moral improvement) which means I'm not moral if I

> choose to drink again. Are you beginning to grasp the insanity of this

> thinking?

>

> If I pick up a drink and swallow it, knowing that I may commit a crime

> (driving while intoxicated, for example) and go ahead and do it anyway,

> it is not my reponsibility if I end up killing someone on the highway.

> It was my " disease "

> rearinng it's ugly head.

>

> I place no judgment on your reasons to escape reality and from the sound

> of it, life has not been kind to you.

>

> My gripe is with AA philosophy. It robs people of the right to make

> moral choices by tellig them they can't help their immorality. That

> they are " diseased " , instead of people who made stupid choices and from

> those strpid choices have harmed themselves and others by deliberately

> picking up a drink in a very selfish manner.

>

> Behavior while in a drunken stupor is understandable. That one goes

> ahead and dinks anyway with a history of insane behavior is a moral

> choice, not a " disease " And those who accept the reasoning of moral

> choice at least have a chance of individualtiy and autonomy. Those in

> AA do not; they are forever chained to immobilization in their

> " humility " and their " defects " .

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Carl,

Once again, I ask where is the responsibility for actions committed

while drunk?

Is it because you couldn't help it or is ti because you chose to pick up

the first drink? Definitely a moral decision.

I'm not heartless. If I were, I'd say you have no choice in the matter,

that life drove you to escape and anything you do while drunk is

excusable by a " disease " .

Where does that leave you? More of a victim than you already are.....

If you chose to drink, at least admit that whatevr carnage you may bring

b that decision is yours alone. Take responsibility for that and do

your best to cause no harm to others.

Because you have been brutalized and come from a genetic line of

self-abusers is no excuse to continue the mayhem.....I, too, came from

such a genetic pool

I am not questioning your integrity . Or your decency or your nobility

of character or your charity towards others. All I am saying is that

when you pivk up a drink and know god knows what may happen, you go

ahead anyway. And that is a moral decision because you may harm others

in the process Outside of booze you may well be a decent person, I

was.

But if I want to accept the " disease " , I can't help myself theory, I'm

lost to all of myself that I hold dear.

My heritage is Scandinavian, 100 per cent. I'm condemned before I evn

breathe to the misery of addiction.

Knowing this has been some comfort in my miserable love affair with

booze; but, is it possible that I have a choice over such pre-programmed

dissolution. Many of my relatives refused to touch the stuff, with

good reason. Was their refusal to drink a moral decision, or not?

I'm sorry, really, but the choice to debase myself in booze, to me, is

a moral choice and my choice alone.....there are too many in my genetic

pool that abstain for me to eversay it is not a personal moral decision.

[Guest guest]

Hey Ellen,

This is a great site, isn't it? FREEEEEDOM!

How old is your child who is stll with you?

What is his handicap, if I may ask? How are you dealing with it?

You sound like a person after my own soul.

From AA I learned that talkng about the sickest of things was okay, but

how about the healthiest?

Let's go for it!

[Guest guest]

I can see we're never going to come to a consensus on this.

First of all I never look at moral questions in terms of absolutes. Very few things in life are absolute.

I think that there are degrees of responsibility for our actions. There have to be punishments for actions and I accept that. Seldom are punishments inflicted on citizens, however, done with true justice. If you doubt that, I invite you to visit the American South. You pick the state.

Punishment can be used as a deterrent for drinking. But reducing drinking to simple minded moral question not only ignores the scientific literature, it is not an effectual means to assure sobriety. Quite frankly I don't agree that alcoholism that could simply vanish if a bunch of contrary drunks would just make the simple decision to stay sober. It just isn't that simple.

Those who make the laws are those in power. They need to justify their right to rule and it is quite simple to do that using classes of citizens like drug addicts and drunks who generally lack political power and influence. Thus we are spending enormous sums to imprison millions of people in systems which do little discourage the incidence of addiction. The facts are quite clear. As a matter of fact, this system has every indication of aggravating the problem since it reduces its victims to a lifetime low level employment at best and impoverishment. Is that "moral?"

Of course the individual addict needs to be encouraged to make rational decisions regarding addiction. The problem is what that methodology should. A harsh, simplistic, "moral" (read religious) based approach we know does not work and is opposed to what is know scientifically about the nature of addiction. Why then insist upon an approach to the problem which patently false and a failure? It may be pleasing to certain personality who thrive of absolutistism and providing a rationale for keeping whole classes of people in subjugation. It does little to address the real problem.