Re: Digest Number 249

[Guest guest]

Many will die that never get to either program. Some people would rather die

than stop the learned behavior of several years of self abuse, many not by

choice. It is a difficult task to change one's life's learned habits,

especially when they have involved chemical/alcohol addiction. We have been

faced with constant inability to treat a misunderstood condition.

Psychiatrists, doctors, etc. can not even agree among themselves, as to what

is the most effective form of treatment. I suggest reading the articles at

http://aaw.com/index.html to gain further insight into these tragic matters.

Suicide, death and the like follow alcohol addictions as it is a progressive

disease with these symptoms as the end results if one does not acquire

abstinence. Bottom line is....you drink and you are an alcoholic? It will

kill you! Not because AA said so..... because it is a proven medical fact.

Furthermore, I have never seen any alcoholic more harmed at AA, than by

drinking, no matter how effective the program has or hasn't been for him.

It seems that cynicism has become so rampant, that no credit now will be

given to any program or individual who is attempting to rescue what remains

of their existence, from addiction. We live in an age of total mistrust.

Picking up the pieces after several years of this behavior is no easy task,

and what works as a recovery method for one, will not necessarily work for

another. Deep psychological and often brain damage suggest that total

abstinence from chemicals fixes is the only long term reliable source of

relief, and to give the body a chance to recover physically and mentally.

Is it so terrible that some people choose to fill this newly created void

in their previously toxic lives with a kind of God understanding or seeking

for such. One must substitute something for this change to be effective. It

is difficult to argue that they have not attained some new spirituality.

Whether one agrees or not, many times the person considers their lives

changed by their new found revelations.

So please enlighten me as to how I can be more harmed at an AA meeting ,

than by paying close heed to some of the pseudo rants on this or similar

lists, which make it crystal clear that there are several of us that NEED

recovery programs? That we are powerless over these powerful drugs!

--

Kind Regards,

CWB

> From: 12-step-freeegroups

> Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date: 31 Jul 2000 21:11:43 -0000

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Digest Number 249

>

> Just to play Devil's advocate, I truly believe that there are people who are

> gravely harmed by attendance at AA. I'm sure that many people will die

> rather than stop drinking or using other drugs because they were exposed to

> AA or NA.

[Guest guest]

Nonsense!

--

CWB

> From: 12-step-freeegroups

> Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Date: 31 Jul 2000 21:11:43 -0000

> To: 12-step-freeegroups

> Subject: Digest Number 249

>

> But it's NOT constitutional. That's the whole point. Under the

> pretense of " instead of punishing you we are going to see to it that you

> get help in becoming sober " people are forced to not only attend AA

> meetings, but to falsely swear that they BELIEVE the religious tripe

> they hear there. And if someone tells their auhority person (probation

> officer, state counselor, etc.) that they prefer another type of therapy

> or recovery program which is much more sensible and helpful for them,

> they are threatened with punishment for not having " correct recovery

> thinking " .

[Guest guest]

Re: Digest Number 249

> It seems that cynicism has become so rampant, that no credit now will be

> given to any program or individual who is attempting to rescue what

remains

> of their existence, from addiction. We live in an age of total mistrust.

> Picking up the pieces after several years of this behavior is no easy

task,

> and what works as a recovery method for one, will not necessarily work for

> another. Deep psychological and often brain damage suggest that total

> abstinence from chemicals fixes is the only long term reliable source of

> relief, and to give the body a chance to recover physically and mentally.

>

> Is it so terrible that some people choose to fill this newly created void

> in their previously toxic lives with a kind of God understanding or

seeking

> for such. One must substitute something for this change to be effective.

It

> is difficult to argue that they have not attained some new spirituality.

> Whether one agrees or not, many times the person considers their lives

> changed by their new found revelations.

>

> So please enlighten me as to how I can be more harmed at an AA meeting ,

> than by paying close heed to some of the pseudo rants on this or similar

> lists, which make it crystal clear that there are several of us that NEED

> recovery programs? That we are powerless over these powerful drugs!

> --

> Kind Regards,

>

> CWB

This is an easy one to answer, although I'm sure you will dismiss my

response as being from someone who is trying to blame their " failures " on

AA. I don't understand why so many AAer's need to be " enlightened " as the

harm AA does to many is so obvious. The worst part is that a lot of the

harm could be corrected but rather than changing, AA'ers continue to

maintain 65 year old beliefs and practices in a very religious and cult like

way.

First of all, I find no problem at all with people looking into religion or

spirituality. I myself am quite spiritual although I don't believe in a

Supreme Being that controls our fate.

AA harms people who might otherwise stop drinking using other methods

besides AA. I agree with you that there is no " right " way or " only " way for

everyone to abstain from drinking. However, the recurring theme in AA is

that recovery with AA is the only way to stop drinking. The options for

someone who is dirnking is to stop by going to AA or face death, jails or

institutions. Anyone who actually does stop " on their own " is considered

either non-alcoholic or a miserable dry drunk.

These attitudes are confirmed over and over again in the AA literature and

by AA members. Saying that people can take what they need and leave the

rest is BS. How many times have you heard a newcomer told that they can

choose to leave AA and have their misery refunded? How many times have you

heard a newcomer told that if AA doesn't work then there are other options?

BS! Newcomers and people who have had no success in AA are told that AA

works if you work it! AA doesn't fail people, people fail AA!

Lastly, I am not powerless over alcohol and other drugs!! I lose control

once I drink and I will not say that AA caused that. It is true for me and

has been probably since I first began drinking. However, believing that I

had absloultey no power to not take the first drink to begin with has been

very harmful to me over the years. I did believe that crap in AA about the

day coming when " no power on earth would keep me sober " . I did believe I

was doomed if I didn't follow AA's 12 Steps and " turn my will and my life

over to the care of God " .

Chris

[Guest guest]

-----Original Message-----

[snip]

>

>So please enlighten me as to how I can be more harmed at an AA meeting ,

>than by paying close heed to some...

[snip]

That's easy. If you've been in AA for any significant period of time, you

must have noticed how prevalent Alzheimer's disease and other forms of

dementia are among the older members. Research suggests that the incidence

of Alzheimer's can be substantially reduced by developing a lifestyle that

is both physically and intellectually active in middle age. Conversely, the

typical AA pattern of physical sloth and mental stultification can be

observed to produce early-onset degeneration of brain tissue among long-time

members.

--wally

[Guest guest]

We appear to be being love bombed by uninvited, anonymous steppers.

Just as well I dont go ape abt it any more. They might just learn

something here.

" Psychiatrists, doctors, etc. can not even agree among themselves, as

to what is the most effective form of treatment.

Suicide, death and the like follow alcohol addictions as it is a

progressive disease with these symptoms as the end results if one does

not acquire abstinence. Bottom line is....you drink and you are an

alcoholic? It will kill you! Not because AA said so..... because it is

a proven medical fact. "

In fact, not all doctors agree on this. It is NOT a proven, medical

fact, other than the obvious one that eventually drinking too much

will kill you, but any fool knows that. Most alcohol dependnent

poeple do not show this progression, but actually recover - most to

moderate drinking. It is possible that there are some ppl that for

practical purposes abstinence is essential. However, there is no way

of telling who is a " real alcoholic " for whom this is true; even the

most severely alcohol dependent ppl have recovered to moderate. Now,

you could recommend abstinence on the basis of its a silly risk not to

abstain. This is a very different thing from insisting that

abstinence is essential for everybody who has ever had even slight

alcohol problems - but this is generally what happens in the AA

mindset. In the end, its up to every to decide for themselves what

risks they wish to take, and concern for the wellbeing of others does

not justify distorting the fact that there may be a significant risk

of a negative consequence into pretending it is a total certainty.

This is to totally infantilize the person - and to risk their contempt

and indifference to your concerns when they find out youre full of it.

Finally, as I think has been said here before, I dont think any of us

give a rat's ass if ppl voluntarily want to do the AA thing - we just

dont want ppl forced to do it, and to also help those ppl who did get

involved voluntarily who now want out overcome the disinformation

package they have been fed of which " jails, institutions and death " is

a part.

[Guest guest]

Good post, very well done.

Dave

Barker wrote:

This is an easy one to answer, although I'm sure

you will dismiss my

response as being from someone who is trying to blame their "failures"

on

AA. I don't understand why so many AAer's need to be

"enlightened" as the

harm AA does to many is so obvious. The worst part is that

a lot of the

harm could be corrected but rather than changing, AA'ers continue

to

maintain 65 year old beliefs and practices in a very religious

and cult like

way.

First of all, I find no problem at all with people looking into

religion or

spirituality. I myself am quite spiritual although I don't

believe in a

Supreme Being that controls our fate.

AA harms people who might otherwise stop drinking using other methods

besides AA. I agree with you that there is no "right" way

or "only" way for

everyone to abstain from drinking. However, the recurring

theme in AA is

that recovery with AA is the only way to stop drinking. The

options for

someone who is dirnking is to stop by going to AA or face death,

jails or

institutions. Anyone who actually does stop "on their own"

is considered

either non-alcoholic or a miserable dry drunk.

These attitudes are confirmed over and over again in the AA literature

and

by AA members. Saying that people can take what they need

and leave the

rest is BS. How many times have you heard a newcomer told

that they can

choose to leave AA and have their misery refunded? How many

times have you

heard a newcomer told that if AA doesn't work then there are other

options?

BS! Newcomers and people who have had no success in AA are

told that AA

works if you work it! AA doesn't fail people, people

fail AA!

Lastly, I am not powerless over alcohol and other drugs!!

I lose control

once I drink and I will not say that AA caused that. It is

true for me and

has been probably since I first began drinking. However,

believing that I

had absloultey no power to not take the first drink to begin with

has been

very harmful to me over the years. I did believe that crap

in AA about the

day coming when "no power on earth would keep me sober".

I did believe I

was doomed if I didn't follow AA's 12 Steps and "turn my will and

my life

over to the care of God".

Chris

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Chris. This is a masterpiece.

> Barker wrote:

>

> > This is an easy one to answer,

> > although I'm sure you will dismiss my

> > response as being from someone who is

> > trying to blame their " failures " on

> > AA. I don't understand why so many

> > AAer's need to be " enlightened " as the

> >

> > harm AA does to many is so obvious.

> > The worst part is that a lot of the

> > harm could be corrected but rather

> > than changing, AA'ers continue to

> > maintain 65 year old beliefs and

> > practices in a very religious and cult

> > like

> > way.

> >

> > First of all, I find no problem at all

> > with people looking into religion or

> > spirituality. I myself am quite

> > spiritual although I don't believe in

> > a

> > Supreme Being that controls our fate.

> >

> > AA harms people who might otherwise

> > stop drinking using other methods

> > besides AA. I agree with you that

> > there is no " right " way or " only " way

> > for

> > everyone to abstain from drinking.

> > However, the recurring theme in AA is

> > that recovery with AA is the only way

> > to stop drinking. The options for

> > someone who is dirnking is to stop by

> > going to AA or face death, jails or

> > institutions. Anyone who actually

> > does stop " on their own " is considered

> >

> > either non-alcoholic or a miserable

> > dry drunk.

> >

> > These attitudes are confirmed over and

> > over again in the AA literature and

> > by AA members. Saying that people can

> > take what they need and leave the

> > rest is BS. How many times have you

> > heard a newcomer told that they can

> > choose to leave AA and have their

> > misery refunded? How many times have

> > you

> > heard a newcomer told that if AA

> > doesn't work then there are other

> > options?

> > BS! Newcomers and people who have had

> > no success in AA are told that AA

> > works if you work it! AA doesn't

> > fail people, people fail AA!

> >

> > Lastly, I am not powerless over

> > alcohol and other drugs!! I lose

> > control

> > once I drink and I will not say that

> > AA caused that. It is true for me and

> >

> > has been probably since I first began

> > drinking. However, believing that I

> > had absloultey no power to not take

> > the first drink to begin with has been

> >

> > very harmful to me over the years. I

> > did believe that crap in AA about the

> > day coming when " no power on earth

> > would keep me sober " . I did believe I

> >

> > was doomed if I didn't follow AA's 12

> > Steps and " turn my will and my life

> > over to the care of God " .

> >

> >

> > Chris