Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Thanks Dudley! Finally-someone who else who sees that it's not just one particular mode of transport that needs to be looked at... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Some of us have always questioned the human toll and cost/benefits of " flying billboards " . Like I said in an earlier post, these programs would disappear overnight if a law required an immediate family member of each hospital administrator to accompany each flight. Bob Kellow " Dr. Bledsoe " wrote: > Four brave souls lost their lives in a South Dakota CareFlight > accident (Bell 206) yesterday while 3 lost their lives in a Nevada > Mercy Helicopter (Bell 222) last weekend. Very sad for all. When > will we question both the cost of life and money? > > BEB > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, Texas > > All outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus and guaranteed " virus > free " or your money back. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Dr. Bledsoe and Mr. Kellow, I was wondering when you two would attempt to start this up again. I notice nothing from either of you on the outrageously high number of EMS and Fire vehicle accidents that have been posted on either this list or The Factor list. Austin EMS turns a truck over injuring 4 Pasadena FD blasts an intersection enroute to a fire alarm seriously injuring a family of 3 Ambulance in PA rolls over with a cardiac arrest in it, patient does not survive Ambulance in New York responding to false alarm shooting gets broadsided killing the EMT driver This goes on and on and on...every day. There was one day about a month ago when the daily EMS News email from the emsnetwork contained information on 5 emergency vehicle accidents where there were serious injuries or deaths in ONE day...and nothing was posted about how tragic that was and how if every EMS administrators family had to ride on the ambulance with their crews that they would stop running emergency everyday...... If we are going to argue about the safety of EMS personnel and EMS vehicle safety...lets not discriminate against one specific area. Lets pull back the covers completely and take a long hard look at ALL the difficult issues. Its easy to have a bias and attempt to attack just one area of EMS...but that won't solve the real problem. Everyday people are hurt or killed by EMS and FD vehicles (ground, air, water, other)...lets start by examining what we can do to lower the ENTIRE number...not just one area we don't agree with. Thanks, Dudley Wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Establish the ratio of ground EMS responses to aeromedical responses. Then, establish the ratio of fatalities per number of responses for each. THEDUDMAN@... wrote: > Dr. Bledsoe and Mr. Kellow, > > I was wondering when you two would attempt to start this up again. I > notice nothing from either of you on the outrageously high number of > EMS and Fire vehicle accidents that have been posted on either this > list or The Factor list. > > Austin EMS turns a truck over injuring 4 > Pasadena FD blasts an intersection enroute to a fire alarm seriously > injuring a family of 3 > Ambulance in PA rolls over with a cardiac arrest in it, patient does > not survive > Ambulance in New York responding to false alarm shooting gets > broadsided killing the EMT driver > This goes on and on and on...every day. There was one day about a > month ago when the daily EMS News email from the emsnetwork contained > information on 5 emergency vehicle accidents where there were serious > injuries or deaths in ONE day...and nothing was posted about how > tragic that was and how if every EMS administrators family had to ride > on the ambulance with their crews that they would stop running > emergency everyday...... > > If we are going to argue about the safety of EMS personnel and EMS > vehicle safety...lets not discriminate against one specific area. > Lets pull back the covers completely and take a long hard look at ALL > the difficult issues. > > Its easy to have a bias and attempt to attack just one area of > EMS...but that won't solve the real problem. Everyday people are hurt > or killed by EMS and FD vehicles (ground, air, water, other)...lets > start by examining what we can do to lower the ENTIRE number...not > just one area we don't agree with. > > Thanks, > > Dudley Wait > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Dudley, You addressed your message to Mr. Kellow or Dr. Bledsoe, and I certainly can't speak for them, but I hope you don't mind if I make a few comments [you knew I would ;>)...]. Your point that we could do better regarding our ground ambulances is well taken as there is ample room for improvement. While we should not focus all of our attention on air transport, I continue to feel we should examine the traditional role of helicopters in EMS. Indeed there are many incidents involving emergency vehicles other than air medical helicopters and these incidents have often involved injury and sometimes deaths. Still, one thing stands out to mark the difference. When ground vehicles are involved there are relatively few fatalities compared to the number of accidents, but almost every helicopter crash results in the deaths of all onboard. When you look at the ratio of transports to crew/patient mortality, ground transportation, for all its warts, comes out safer. As I have stated before, my problem with helicopter transport is that we tend to be far too casual in its use. A very large portion of helicopter transports would have same/similar patient outcome if transported by ground ambulance. There is very little research on this topic and therefore little data to cite. Most of the information I have found is antidotal but the records of LODD is telling. As I stated when this topic was last discussed, the NEMSMS in Roanoke, VA (www.nemsms.org) lists almost as many EMS LODD from helicopter accidents as from all other causes combined. If we were more selective and called for the chopper only in cases where it has been shown to be beneficial maybe we could improve the statistics. If we were more careful with the way we drive, maybe we could improve those statistics too. Considering some of the very interesting mail I got last time I chimed in on the topic I don't really want to start it again, so I'll make this my one and only post on the subject. Best regards, Donn Re: Aeromedical accidents Dr. Bledsoe and Mr. Kellow, I was wondering when you two would attempt to start this up again. I notice nothing from either of you on the outrageously high number of EMS and Fire vehicle accidents that have been posted on either this list or The Factor list. Austin EMS turns a truck over injuring 4 Pasadena FD blasts an intersection enroute to a fire alarm seriously injuring a family of 3 Ambulance in PA rolls over with a cardiac arrest in it, patient does not survive Ambulance in New York responding to false alarm shooting gets broadsided killing the EMT driver This goes on and on and on...every day. There was one day about a month ago when the daily EMS News email from the emsnetwork contained information on 5 emergency vehicle accidents where there were serious injuries or deaths in ONE day...and nothing was posted about how tragic that was and how if every EMS administrators family had to ride on the ambulance with their crews that they would stop running emergency everyday...... If we are going to argue about the safety of EMS personnel and EMS vehicle safety...lets not discriminate against one specific area. Lets pull back the covers completely and take a long hard look at ALL the difficult issues. Its easy to have a bias and attempt to attack just one area of EMS...but that won't solve the real problem. Everyday people are hurt or killed by EMS and FD vehicles (ground, air, water, other)...lets start by examining what we can do to lower the ENTIRE number...not just one area we don't agree with. Thanks, Dudley Wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Don, I agree with you, if you or your service is utilizing helicopters for patients that could be served just as well by ground transport than you should examine your use of helicopter transport. I know I will am looking closely at utilization appropriateness. Hopefully, your RAC, your medical director or your EMS system has developed some type of helicopter utilization tool that identifies the type of patients, locations and other circumstances that would be appropriate to utilize air medical transport. Not only is there an inherent risk associate with all emergency type transport but in the case of air medical transport, helicopters are also a valuable and limited resource. I too am alarmed at the recent accidents that have taken place from both a ground and air perspective. While I cannot speak for what is being done everywhere I would tell you that TAAMS, the Texas Association of Air Medical Services has rejuvenated its Safety and Security Committee several months ago to establish priorities and goals to enhance safety of air medical transport in Texas. TAAMS is a part of a much larger air medical association and any progress made will obviously be shared both ways. Safety, for all of us needs to be more than simply a word we say (abuse), it needs to be a true culture within our workplace. From an air medical standpoint, one needs to be supported by management, peers and the person or organization making the request for air transport for any decision to turn down a mission request for any safety concern. We need to train, re-train, continue to train and hire the best possible folks out there to operate and maintain your aircraft or ambulance. The last thing I would want to see is one of our aircraft flying so low due to the weather that I can read the tail numbers or an ambulance flying through intersections and making multiple lane changes that I wouldn't attempt in a sports car much less in an overweight, non-aerodynamic, top-heavy box. We, as an industry must strive to improve or we, as an industry will go away. If we go away so does a very valuable tool for you and your patients that can truly benefit from air medical transport. Bill Waechter AirLife >>> donn@... 09/11/02 10:20AM >>> Dudley, You addressed your message to Mr. Kellow or Dr. Bledsoe, and I certainly can't speak for them, but I hope you don't mind if I make a few comments [you knew I would ;>)...]. Your point that we could do better regarding our ground ambulances is well taken as there is ample room for improvement. While we should not focus all of our attention on air transport, I continue to feel we should examine the traditional role of helicopters in EMS. Indeed there are many incidents involving emergency vehicles other than air medical helicopters and these incidents have often involved injury and sometimes deaths. Still, one thing stands out to mark the difference. When ground vehicles are involved there are relatively few fatalities compared to the number of accidents, but almost every helicopter crash results in the deaths of all onboard. When you look at the ratio of transports to crew/patient mortality, ground transportation, for all its warts, comes out safer. As I have stated before, my problem with helicopter transport is that we tend to be far too casual in its use. A very large portion of helicopter transports would have same/similar patient outcome if transported by ground ambulance. There is very little research on this topic and therefore little data to cite. Most of the information I have found is antidotal but the records of LODD is telling. As I stated when this topic was last discussed, the NEMSMS in Roanoke, VA (www.nemsms.org) lists almost as many EMS LODD from helicopter accidents as from all other causes combined. If we were more selective and called for the chopper only in cases where it has been shown to be beneficial maybe we could improve the statistics. If we were more careful with the way we drive, maybe we could improve those statistics too. Considering some of the very interesting mail I got last time I chimed in on the topic I don't really want to start it again, so I'll make this my one and only post on the subject. Best regards, Donn Re: Aeromedical accidents Dr. Bledsoe and Mr. Kellow, I was wondering when you two would attempt to start this up again. I notice nothing from either of you on the outrageously high number of EMS and Fire vehicle accidents that have been posted on either this list or The Factor list. Austin EMS turns a truck over injuring 4 Pasadena FD blasts an intersection enroute to a fire alarm seriously injuring a family of 3 Ambulance in PA rolls over with a cardiac arrest in it, patient does not survive Ambulance in New York responding to false alarm shooting gets broadsided killing the EMT driver This goes on and on and on...every day. There was one day about a month ago when the daily EMS News email from the emsnetwork contained information on 5 emergency vehicle accidents where there were serious injuries or deaths in ONE day...and nothing was posted about how tragic that was and how if every EMS administrators family had to ride on the ambulance with their crews that they would stop running emergency everyday...... If we are going to argue about the safety of EMS personnel and EMS vehicle safety...lets not discriminate against one specific area. Lets pull back the covers completely and take a long hard look at ALL the difficult issues. Its easy to have a bias and attempt to attack just one area of EMS...but that won't solve the real problem. Everyday people are hurt or killed by EMS and FD vehicles (ground, air, water, other)...lets start by examining what we can do to lower the ENTIRE number...not just one area we don't agree with. Thanks, Dudley Wait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Good points made by many......would love to see the ratio of LODD from aeromedicine to all others though, is there a link for that, or at least a link to figures so I can 'whup' out my calculator? Couple of my own thoughts, then, like Donn, I shall dissappear into the wind..... We do need to seriously consider who and what we launch a helicopter for, unfortunately, we have such a broad range of reasons, and signs and symptoms that qualify a helicopter, that even without using a little creativity, almost anyone can qualify. Many basic services, especially those that are basic and rural or even frontier tend to use them quite a bit, for understandable reasons. This training must come from the air service, and to a lesser degree from the ground services involved. When I flew, and it was not long ago, we trained any service that requested it. From an air service perspective though, it was a touchy situation, actually a public relations nightmare to insinuate to a ground service that a patient did not neseccitate a helicopter, depending on the service, it was tantamount to telling then that their decision making ability was poor, the service, or an indiviual medic/EMT would get upset, and swear off the use of the offending air service. This too, is unacceptable, as the only person to suffer, is the patient. To me, and in my opinion, this business, be it EMS, FF, or PD, has inherent risks that we all chose to take, and continue to choose to take each and every day we go to work. What we need to work on, is the issue of safety. Over the years, we have made tremendous changes for the sake of safety for all three branches, and we must all admit that those changes have increased the survivability us all. We need to turn our focus to the saftey of air ambulance, if the accidents are a result of human error, then we need to spend more time on training our pilots and flight crews, if they are mechanical failure, then we need to tighten the regulations which govern repairs and PM, there is too much at risk not too. From the flight crew perspective, I know that lives have been saved by reducing the amount of time from scene to facility, and I know that my additional training, and the incredible skills of the flight nurses that I had the priviledge of working with, allowed us to do much more in the helicopter than could be done on the ground when responding to some service areas. From the ground perspective, I know that there were many times that we called, and there was no sweeter sound, than that of the thumping of the rotors when they were a minute out. Extensive training from the air service, understanding and acceptance from the ground service, extensive training for the pilots, and stringent PM and repair standards for the hellicopter, add those together, and maybe we can get back to seeing convenience store robberies and political BS in the headlines again. Just my 'oh so humble opinion', Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 , In your research materials, do you have the data on air ambulance crashes including date, location, and number of injured/killed? I'm still trying to put together a bit of information to illustrate my project. Thanks, Donn Aeromedical accidents Four brave souls lost their lives in a South Dakota CareFlight accident (Bell 206) yesterday while 3 lost their lives in a Nevada Mercy Helicopter (Bell 222) last weekend. Very sad for all. When will we question both the cost of life and money? BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, Texas All outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus and guaranteed " virus free " or your money back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 See attached file. E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, Texas All outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus and guaranteed " virus free " or your money back. Aeromedical accidents > > > Four brave souls lost their lives in a South Dakota CareFlight accident > (Bell 206) yesterday while 3 lost their lives in a Nevada Mercy Helicopter > (Bell 222) last weekend. Very sad for all. When will we question both the > cost of life and money? > > BEB > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, Texas > > All outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus and guaranteed " virus free " > or your money back. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2002 Report Share Posted September 14, 2002 There was no attached file. Re: Aeromedical accidents See attached file. E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, Texas All outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus and guaranteed " virus free " or your money back. Aeromedical accidents > > > Four brave souls lost their lives in a South Dakota CareFlight accident > (Bell 206) yesterday while 3 lost their lives in a Nevada Mercy Helicopter > (Bell 222) last weekend. Very sad for all. When will we question both the > cost of life and money? > > BEB > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, Texas > > All outgoing email scanned by Norton Antivirus and guaranteed " virus free " > or your money back. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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