RE: Legal Question

[Guest guest]

On reference to you question about the paramedic/coach.He has no legal duties

on his role as an paramedic.

[Guest guest]

And this opinion is based on?

Re: Legal Question

On reference to you question about the paramedic/coach.He has no legal

duties

on his role as an paramedic.

[Guest guest]

Dr. B,

I would concur with Jesus on this. In the scenario the coach is a paramedic.

He is not working in that role so he has no legal mandate that he provide

care over and above that of the level of EMT. Since he is not working, he

does not have a medical director that he is working under at that moment.

What is not addressed in this scenarios is, does this paramedic have

coverage off duty by his medical director? Does he have proper id? Does his

service has some kind of agreement with the responding agency that allows

him to practice? These are all things that have been addressed he in WilCo

along with A/TCEMS.

Now does he have a moral obligation to ride with the patient I believe is

another discussion..

Got to get to work now,

Re: Legal Question

>

> On reference to you question about the paramedic/coach.He has no legal

> duties

> on his role as an paramedic.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mark-

My Medical Director has made all of the scenarios mentioned an easy call for

me........at least if I am in Texas.......

He will back my medical decision making, under our normal protocols, anywhere he

and I are legally entitled to practice. So if I should choose to intervene in a

medical emergency anywhere in the State of Texas, I would conduct myself

accordingly. After assuming care and providing initial aid, I may choose to hand

a patient over to equivalent or superior levels of care, or accompany a patient

to a receiving hospital if the local service wishes me to do so or conditions

warrant. The M/D and I would assume all of the usual legal obligations of an

emergency care provider

If a consult is needed, I can call my M/D by cellphone 24/7 or choose to allow

the local M/D to provide direction if that solution is agreeable.

I don't often find it necessary to provide more than good basic care on those

occasions where I have intervened, and carry a BLS-only jump bag in my vehicle.

And needless to say, I renew my malpractice insurance annually.

Out of State, I would have to cross my fingers and hope for protection under

Good Samaritan Laws, if I choose to act. And of course, practice excellent

medical care in all cases.

My responses to the individual situations are interwoven with your note......and

I speak for myself in those cases........

Regards-

Terry Dinerman EMTP

Legal Question

Hi,

Some of my colleagues and I have been discussing a situation that came up

involving another paramedic in our area and I thought that some input from

the List might be enlightening.

At a local track meet a visiting athlete became unresponsive after running

in several races and one of the coaches from the athlete's school attended

to him until the local ambulance arrived. The coach is a paramedic and

the responding crew were both EMTs. The coach/paramedic was not affiliated

with the responding service and was responsible for 30 other athletes at the

meet. What legal obligations did the paramedic have?

The medic assumes all of the usual medical/legal obligations>>>>>>>

Other variations of this scenario that were brought up during our debate--

A paramedic traveling in his home state comes upon a MVC and stops to help

before any emergency services arrive. The responding ambulance is manned

by EMTs.

I may accomany the patient if conditions warrant and the crew agrees and be

covered by my home medcial director, or ask for temporary coverage from the

local M/D via direct consult>>>>>>>>>

A paramedic traveling outside of home state comes upon a MVC and the

responding ambulance is manned by EMTs. The paramedic is not certified or

licensed to practice in the state.

I would be a Good Samaritan and hope for the best, as I would neither have

malpractice insurance or coverage from my M/D>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

If the paramedic decides in any of the above instances to accompany the

patient during transport would the service that operates the ambulance be

liable for what the paramedic did or did not do during the transport?

A good (or even bad) malpractice attourney would sue EVERYONE involved and

seek the most compensation for his client>>>>>>>>>>>

If the paramedic decides in any of the above instances to accompany the

patient during transport and the truck was not adequately stocked (empty

O2 bottle or missing BVMs for instance) and the patient did not receive

adequate care would the paramedic be held liable?

A good (or even bad) malpractice attourney would sue EVERYONE involved and

seek the most compensation for his client>>>>>>>>>>>

If the paramedic decides not to accompany the patient during transport has

he abandoned the patient?

If the patient is properly transferred to an equivalent or superior level of

care, he has adequatly discharged his legal obligation to the patient. If the

patient was apparently a BLS case, and I transfer him to a BLS crew and go my

merry way and the pt then decides to go into cardiac arrest.......

A good (or even bad) malpractice attourney would sue EVERYONE involved and

seek the most compensation for his client>>>>>>>>>>>

Mark Elliott LP, NREMT-P

[Guest guest]

Consider this. The coach is a competent paramedic. He finds the kid with a

maintainable airway, but not breathing. The EMTs show that they are not

real familiar with the BVM. Does the paramedic have liability if he

completely turns over care to the EMTs? While he probably would have

protection under the Good Samaritan Act from liability, would he be

ethically correct?

My response to the Jesus guy was meant that all is not so clearly black and

white and statements such as he made may lull younger people into a false

sense of security.

Once, on a football field, I straightened out a badly angulated distal leg

fracture because the pulse was weak. This could be described as " first aid "

as it is commonly done by corpsmen and is taught in paramedic schools.

Furthermore, the intent was to not compromise the foot. If the paramedics

showed inability to continue monitoring the affected extremity, I would

probably had been negligent for not going with the patient. It is the same

sort of deal as described above. I might not have had Good Samaritan

protection as a physician, but simply being protected by a law, while good,

does not mean that the standard of care is changed. A judge might rule

differently. Judges are not like computers. Each can offer a different

opinion given the same set of facts.

BEB

Re: Legal Question

Dr. B,

I would concur with Jesus on this. In the scenario the coach is a paramedic.

He is not working in that role so he has no legal mandate that he provide

care over and above that of the level of EMT. Since he is not working, he

does not have a medical director that he is working under at that moment.

What is not addressed in this scenarios is, does this paramedic have

coverage off duty by his medical director? Does he have proper id? Does his

service has some kind of agreement with the responding agency that allows

him to practice? These are all things that have been addressed he in WilCo

along with A/TCEMS.

Now does he have a moral obligation to ride with the patient I believe is

another discussion..

Got to get to work now,

Re: Legal Question

>

> On reference to you question about the paramedic/coach.He has no legal

> duties

> on his role as an paramedic.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would think that the coach, who is tasked with supervising the athlete,

and most likely is in possession of an authorization to consent to care

(permission slip), probably does have a duty to act. I don't think I would

want to stand in front of a jury, tell them I'm a paramedic, tell them that

I am the child's coach, and that I didn't make every reasonable effort to

assure the best care possible.

Steve Pike

Re: Legal Question

On reference to you question about the paramedic/coach.He has no legal

duties

on his role as an paramedic.

[Guest guest]

As I understand the scenario, the coach did act, and then turned care over

to the local service. The scenario presents the additional information that

the coach is " responsible " for 30 other athletes. Given this, I would want

to balance the needs of the ill athlete with the potential needs of any of

the other athletes. Nothing in the scenario presented indicates that the

coach provided any more than basic care, nor does it suggest that the

patient was presenting with a medical situation that could not be handled by

an EMT. So without reading more into the situation than was provided, I

would have to say that the coach could safely turn care over to the

transport providers and remain at the event.

Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

Clinical Practice Coordinator

Austin- County EMS

517 S. Pleasant Valley Rd.

Austin, Tx. 78741

Office

Pager

Fax

e-mail: ed.strout@...

[Guest guest]

I think your safe in doing BLS care. Spinal Motion Reduction, Bandaging,

Splinting, Ventilating with BVM/Oral Airway, Vital Signs, Basic Assessment, O2

administration, and using a Public AED all fall under skills which require no

medical direction, and therefore still provide limited Good Sam protection. As

a public school teacher, I do not hesitate to provide any BLS care to a student,

and would do ALS care if I could get my medical control to extend. In this

experience, it also seems that School Nurses would benefit by taking ENPC and

TNCC, which I have encouraged.

mikey

[Guest guest]

First Question:

So did the coach do anything above the EMT-B level?

I was under the impression that as long as a paramedic doesn't do any ALS

intervention and only does BLS then the continutity of care hasn't changed.

I don't know many medics that carry ALS equipment in their personal

vehicles. So I doubt that the coach started a line, or hooked the athlete

up to a monitor. He probably only did a quick assessment, and provided BLS/

First Aid care. Assessing a patient is a BLS skill that basics can do.

Second Question:

So the paramedic is on scene on any of the scenarios mentioned earlier and

has assessed the patients to need ALS interventions, but doesn't have the

equipment. When the ambulance arrives on scene it is staffed with 2

Emt-Basics and is only certified as a BLS only unit. So if the paramedic

doesn't have the equipment necessary to take care of the patient, then what

can the medic do that the basics can't?

Just food for thought. Later y'all

L.P., NREMT-P

Never be afraid to try new things. Remember, a lone amateur built the ark.

A bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Why does Sea World have a seafood restaurant? I am halfway through a fish

burger when I realize... OH my god, I could be eating a slow learner. Lynda

Montgomery

_________________________________________________________________

The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

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[Guest guest]

Something to keep in mind, I suppose.

IF the coach/paramedic had all that fancy ALS stuff, he would not be

legally allowed to turn care over to the EMT –I or EMT –B or ECA

because paramedic is the highest (in prehospital care point) so just

doing basic stuff (ABC, SAMPLE, etc) is plenty, IMHO

A nobody emt basic student

[Guest guest]

So which is it? The paramedic could turn over the patient to an EMT or not?

Or, he can turn over care ONLY if they pt doesn't need the advanced skills? I

was under the impression that was abandonment--not turning a pt over to someone

in your level of training or higher. Did that make any sense? What I mean is

we were taught that the paramedic could NOT turn care over to an EMT--period.

if the medic initiates care--unless another paramedic comes and takes over--he

has to go with the patient.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Dana

[Guest guest]

Good questions I would like to add another question.

1st) Paramedics can not perform ALS without standing orders or under medical

control and most standing orders can only be used while on duty.

2nd) Most EMS organizations have orders to not allow the EMS units to take

orders from Doctors on the street. ( ie if a Doctor that you know comes up

and offers assistance you usually have to refuse his help and work with your

medical control).

3rd) Most EMS organizations have restrictions as to whom can ride in their

unit during a transport.

What are you suppose to do as a Paramedic if the local EMS organization is

BLS?

For the best outcome of the patient he would need to be transported. Right?

Ed Walsh LP

Re: Re: Legal Question

> So which is it? The paramedic could turn over the patient to an EMT or

not? Or, he can turn over care ONLY if they pt doesn't need the advanced

skills? I was under the impression that was abandonment--not turning a pt

over to someone in your level of training or higher. Did that make any

sense? What I mean is we were taught that the paramedic could NOT turn care

over to an EMT--period. if the medic initiates care--unless another

paramedic comes and takes over--he has to go with the patient.

>

> Someone correct me if I'm wrong

> Dana

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Any plaintiff's lawyer will follow the standard practice of " sue 'em all and

let God sort 'em out. " In that instance, the defendant(s) with deep pockets

stand the greatest chance of being hosed in court. This also creates the

situation where the various defendants' insurance providers will fight

amongst themselves to create liability, hence accomplishing some of the

plaintiff's work at little or no cost.

My advice, which you're not paying for, is to think as a " reasonable and

prudent " member of your profession. That's the standard the jury will be told

to follow. If you help, you might be creating liability. If you don't help in

these situations (as described in the original email), it's doubtful that any

court will find that you had a duty to act. The important thing is that once

you act, you have a duty to continue acting, or you will have been determined

to have abandoned a patient.

-Wes Ogilvie, JD

*NOTA BENE - my comments are not intended to provide legal advice or to

create an attorney/client relationship.* (Also, your mileage may vary and

some settling of contents may have occured during shipping.)

[Guest guest]

I just now popped in on this thread, but Ben's remarks are right on

the money.

Jane Hill

> First Question:

> So did the coach do anything above the EMT-B level?

> I was under the impression that as long as a paramedic doesn't do

any ALS

> intervention and only does BLS then the continutity of care hasn't

changed.

> I don't know many medics that carry ALS equipment in their personal

> vehicles. So I doubt that the coach started a line, or hooked the

athlete

> up to a monitor. He probably only did a quick assessment, and

provided BLS/

> First Aid care. Assessing a patient is a BLS skill that basics can

do.

>

> Second Question:

> So the paramedic is on scene on any of the scenarios mentioned

earlier and

> has assessed the patients to need ALS interventions, but doesn't

have the

> equipment. When the ambulance arrives on scene it is staffed with

2

> Emt-Basics and is only certified as a BLS only unit. So if the

paramedic

> doesn't have the equipment necessary to take care of the patient,

then what

> can the medic do that the basics can't?

>

> Just food for thought. Later y'all

>

>

>

> L.P., NREMT-P

> Never be afraid to try new things. Remember, a lone amateur built

the ark.

> A bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

>

> Why does Sea World have a seafood restaurant? I am halfway through

a fish

> burger when I realize... OH my god, I could be eating a slow

learner. Lynda

> Montgomery

>

>

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[Guest guest]

It all depends on the level of care that Paramedic is able to provide

prior to

turning the patient over. If the Paramedic is only able to provide

Basic care,

or the patient only REQUIRES Basic care, the Paramedic can legally

turn the

situation over to a Basic.

The problem arises if the Paramedic has the capability to provide

higher care

for a patient whose condition NEEDS that higher care. In that case,

turning

the patient over to a Basic responder WOULD be abandonment.

There is nothing in the rules anywhere as well that precludes a

Paramedic from

being able to drive and the Basic ride the back on a call that does

NOT require

ALS care. For example, the crew responds to a minor fender bender.

Patient's

only complaint is the typical " my neck hurts a little " , and there is

no

significant mechanism and no signs of any real problems on exam.

Patient goes

in with backboard, c-collar, etc. - maybe O2 for grins. Is the

Paramedic

required by law to ride this call? The answer is NO. However,

company policy

MAY require the medic to ride, and that would be an exception. The

Paramedic

in this situation, however, has to be careful to perform a thorough

assessment

to determine that ALS care is NOT needed prior to turning the call

over to the

Basic to ride because if the assessment was incomplete and it turned

out the

patient DID have a problem requiring ALS care, then that WOULD be

abandonment.

Jane Hill

> So which is it? The paramedic could turn over the patient to an

EMT or not? Or, he can turn over care ONLY if they pt doesn't need

the advanced skills? I was under the impression that was abandonment-

-not turning a pt over to someone in your level of training or

higher. Did that make any sense? What I mean is we were taught that

the paramedic could NOT turn care over to an EMT--period. if the

medic initiates care--unless another paramedic comes and takes over--

he has to go with the patient.

>

> Someone correct me if I'm wrong

> Dana

[Guest guest]

I'm not going to wade into the general discussion here because it's been

quite adequately debated, except for one area that probably needs

clarification:

The legal concept of abandonment does not preclude a paramedic from turning

over care of a patient to an EMT or an ECA if that patient's needs can

adequately be met by the EMT or ECA. It wouldn't make any sense to say that

if a paramedic assesses a patient and determines that the patient has a

hangnail the paramedic is joined to that patient until they reach the

hospital.

A paramedic must continue care only if paramedic/level care is required and a

lower level of care will not suffice. This will always depend upon the

unique facts of the case, so good documentation must be done to explain the

situation in case questions were to arise.

Gene Gandy

[Guest guest]

I am enjoying the variety of opinions being expressed on this topic, but I

do find one fact being overlooked. The scenario as presented clearly states

that the coach/paramedic does not work for the transport provider agency.

(In fact, the scenario as given does not state that the coach works as a

paramedic in any capacity. It only states that he is a paramedic, which I

take to imply that he has passed the requisite courses and tests. I know

plenty of folks who are EMTs but who do not work or volunteer in that

capacity).

So here's the question...If you currently work for a BLS transport provider,

does your company allow anybody who presents a paramedic credential to not

only accompany you to the hospital, but to actually turn all control for

patient care over to that person? In other words, you arrive on scene and a

person with a paramedic card tells you that the patient is ALS and so he's

now in charge. You don't know the person at all. Does your company policy

let you step aside and tell the stranger with the card to go for it?

I ask this because this seems to be the prevailing opinion of what should

happen. I can tell you that it won't happen where I work. (First off...we

staff our trucks with paramedics only, but it wasn't all that long ago that

we staffed with BLS providers. Even then the answer would have been " no " ).

I'm not a lawyer and don't presume to know what's legal and what isn't. I

only know that our system has very strict standards about who can provide

care to a patient that we are transporting. I would love to be able to say

that if I happened upon a situation while traveling around the hill country

on my motorcycle, and the responding agency was a BLS only provider, that I

would jump in and continue care all the way to the hospital. But I can't.

I can offer, I can strongly recommend, I can plead, but I can't force myself

into anybody else's system.

But as others have said...this is my perspective only.

Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

Austin- County EMS

[Guest guest]

Wow--I can only imagine--our system DOES allow for other medics that aren't a

member of our service to ride with us and deliver patient care as long as they

present the correct certification credintials etc. As a matter of fact, I had a

run the other night where we needed a paramedic and only had an intermediate on

the truck, so the paramedic from a different city jumped on our truck and took

over patient care. Thankfully, our driver knew this person and could vouch that

he was in fact a medic.

Seems more systems should utilize the " team " approach, but I totally understand

in bigger areas this isn't always possible.

In a message dated 3/26/2003 12:12:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ed.strout@... writes:

>

>

> I am enjoying the variety of opinions being expressed on this topic, but I

> do find one fact being overlooked. The scenario as presented clearly states

> that the coach/paramedic does not work for the transport provider agency.

> (In fact, the scenario as given does not state that the coach works as a

> paramedic in any capacity. It only states that he is a paramedic, which I

> take to imply that he has passed the requisite courses and tests. I know

> plenty of folks who are EMTs but who do not work or volunteer in that

> capacity).

>

> So here's the question...If you currently work for a BLS transport provider,

> does your company allow anybody who presents a paramedic credential to not

> only accompany you to the hospital, but to actually turn all control for

> patient care over to that person? In other words, you arrive on scene and a

> person with a paramedic card tells you that the patient is ALS and so he's

> now in charge. You don't know the person at all. Does your company policy

> let you step aside and tell the stranger with the card to go for it?

>

> I ask this because this seems to be the prevailing opinion of what should

> happen. I can tell you that it won't happen where I work. (First off...we

> staff our trucks with paramedics only, but it wasn't all that long ago that

> we staffed with BLS providers. Even then the answer would have been " no " ).

> I'm not a lawyer and don't presume to know what's legal and what isn't. I

> only know that our system has very strict standards about who can provide

> care to a patient that we are transporting. I would love to be able to say

> that if I happened upon a situation while traveling around the hill country

> on my motorcycle, and the responding agency was a BLS only provider, that I

> would jump in and continue care all the way to the hospital. But I can't.

> I can offer, I can strongly recommend, I can plead, but I can't force myself

> into anybody else's system.

>

> But as others have said...this is my perspective only.

>

> Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

> Austin- County EMS

>

[Guest guest]

I'm with Ed on this.

While we are both neighbors, with 1 agency being medium size and the other

being rather large, without the proper Identification on a scene, I don't

see either service allowing one of us to participate very much in patient

care. Granted both agency only staff trucks with Paramedics, unless you know

that crew, the chances are very slim. Remember the agency on the call with

it's staff are the ones responsible for the care of that patient (including

their medical director).

While I would be more then willing to let Ed in the back to help, if he

really wanted to on his day off , I know him, his background, where he

works, etc. The new rookie at his agency would not get the same

consideration. Just a fact of the world we live in.

I sure wouldn't let a medic I had never seen onto my truck to take over

patient care. The lawyers and employers would just have a field day with

that.

Wiseman

on County EMS

RE: Re: Legal Question

> I am enjoying the variety of opinions being expressed on this topic, but I

> do find one fact being overlooked. The scenario as presented clearly

states

> that the coach/paramedic does not work for the transport provider agency.

> (In fact, the scenario as given does not state that the coach works as a

> paramedic in any capacity. It only states that he is a paramedic, which I

> take to imply that he has passed the requisite courses and tests. I know

> plenty of folks who are EMTs but who do not work or volunteer in that

> capacity).

>

> So here's the question...If you currently work for a BLS transport

provider,

> does your company allow anybody who presents a paramedic credential to not

> only accompany you to the hospital, but to actually turn all control for

> patient care over to that person? In other words, you arrive on scene and

a

> person with a paramedic card tells you that the patient is ALS and so he's

> now in charge. You don't know the person at all. Does your company

policy

> let you step aside and tell the stranger with the card to go for it?

>

> I ask this because this seems to be the prevailing opinion of what should

> happen. I can tell you that it won't happen where I work. (First

off...we

> staff our trucks with paramedics only, but it wasn't all that long ago

that

> we staffed with BLS providers. Even then the answer would have been

" no " ).

> I'm not a lawyer and don't presume to know what's legal and what isn't. I

> only know that our system has very strict standards about who can provide

> care to a patient that we are transporting. I would love to be able to

say

> that if I happened upon a situation while traveling around the hill

country

> on my motorcycle, and the responding agency was a BLS only provider, that

I

> would jump in and continue care all the way to the hospital. But I can't.

> I can offer, I can strongly recommend, I can plead, but I can't force

myself

> into anybody else's system.

>

> But as others have said...this is my perspective only.

>

> Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

> Austin- County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think in our case, we have the same medical control--but I can't remember if

this was why we could do it or it was the mutual aid agreements

In a message dated 3/26/2003 3:54:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,

barry.sharp@... writes:

>

>

> Good point Mike. Also, could some of our legal eagles comment on the

> liability of this for both the paramedic and the transporting agency should

> something go wrong...patient crashes or ambulance crashes.

>

> While there is some merit in the " team " approach that harkens back to the

> true spirit of volunteerism and neighbors helping neighbors, with today's

> over abundance of lawsuits it seems as this approach could also have some

> land mines.

>

> Barry

>

> Re: Re: Legal Question

>

>

>

> --- nails504@... wrote:

> >

> > Wow--I can only imagine--our system DOES allow for other medics that

> > aren't a member of our service to ride with us and deliver patient care

> > as long as they present the correct certification credintials etc. As a

> > matter of fact, I had a run the other night where we needed a paramedic

> > and only had an intermediate on the truck, so the paramedic from a

> > different city jumped on our truck and took over patient care.

> > Thankfully, our driver knew this person and could vouch that he was in

> > fact a medic.

> > Seems more systems should utilize the " team " approach, but I totally

> > understand in bigger areas this isn't always possible.

>

> A word of warning - be careful with this. My understanding is that a

> paramedic, when practicing, must carry his/her certification/licensure at

> all times. Also, I believe that there's a requirement for a photo-ID,

> too, but I could understand that being waived in an emergency situation.

>

> Mike

>

>

> =====

> Mike

>

> Protester: " But the UN is the world`s most respected governing body. "

> Reply: " Not as respected as the U.S. military. "

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

I can assure you that with San AMR this is the view we take on this

issue. Unless you are and employee of ours, and on the clock with us, or are a

first responder in our area (and are authorized to perform ALS by your medical

director) then you cannot do ALS, no matter who you work for.

Additionally, our protocols specifically indicate that paramedics that are not

on duty cannot operate under the provisions of the protocols. That means that

if any of our paramedics are out there with an intubation kit or a drug box,

treating people on the side of the road when they are not on duty, they are

putting themselves in a very bad legal position. I would reccomend all of you

verify that your protocols cover you when you are off duty before you go

stopping at a wreck or intiating advanced care.

Steve Dralle, EMT-P

South Texas CES Manager

American Medical Reponse

---- Original Message -----

To: < >

Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:12 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Legal Question

> I am enjoying the variety of opinions being expressed on this topic, but I

> do find one fact being overlooked. The scenario as presented clearly

states

> that the coach/paramedic does not work for the transport provider agency.

> (In fact, the scenario as given does not state that the coach works as a

> paramedic in any capacity. It only states that he is a paramedic, which I

> take to imply that he has passed the requisite courses and tests. I know

> plenty of folks who are EMTs but who do not work or volunteer in that

> capacity).

>

> So here's the question...If you currently work for a BLS transport

provider,

> does your company allow anybody who presents a paramedic credential to not

> only accompany you to the hospital, but to actually turn all control for

> patient care over to that person? In other words, you arrive on scene and

a

> person with a paramedic card tells you that the patient is ALS and so he's

> now in charge. You don't know the person at all. Does your company

policy

> let you step aside and tell the stranger with the card to go for it?

>

> I ask this because this seems to be the prevailing opinion of what should

> happen. I can tell you that it won't happen where I work. (First

off...we

> staff our trucks with paramedics only, but it wasn't all that long ago

that

> we staffed with BLS providers. Even then the answer would have been

" no " ).

> I'm not a lawyer and don't presume to know what's legal and what isn't. I

> only know that our system has very strict standards about who can provide

> care to a patient that we are transporting. I would love to be able to

say

> that if I happened upon a situation while traveling around the hill

country

> on my motorcycle, and the responding agency was a BLS only provider, that

I

> would jump in and continue care all the way to the hospital. But I can't.

> I can offer, I can strongly recommend, I can plead, but I can't force

myself

> into anybody else's system.

>

> But as others have said...this is my perspective only.

>

> Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

> Austin- County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Very important point you have made! Why should anyone (BLS or ALS) be

willing to allow someone they know nothing about to take over patient care.

Having a paramedic card does not automatically make one a good (or even

marginally competent) paramedic. We all know paramedics, doctors, nurses,

EMTs, etc. that we wouldn't allow anywhere near our patients or our family.

Why should we let someone we know nothing about be in control of patient

care in our department's vehicle.

Maxine Pate

hire-Pattison EMS

----- Original Message -----

>

> So here's the question...If you currently work for a BLS transport

provider,

> does your company allow anybody who presents a paramedic credential to not

> only accompany you to the hospital, but to actually turn all control for

> patient care over to that person? In other words, you arrive on scene and

a

> person with a paramedic card tells you that the patient is ALS and so he's

> now in charge. You don't know the person at all. Does your company

policy

> let you step aside and tell the stranger with the card to go for it?

>

>

> Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

> Austin- County EMS

>

[Guest guest]

I believe that TDH rules only require that you be prominently identified by

name, level, and department. There is no TDH requirement to carry your card

or to have a photo ID.

Maxine Pate

hire-Pattison EMS

----- Original Message -----

> A word of warning - be careful with this. My understanding is that a

> paramedic, when practicing, must carry his/her certification/licensure at

> all times. Also, I believe that there's a requirement for a photo-ID,

> too, but I could understand that being waived in an emergency situation.

>

> Mike

>

[Guest guest]

Remember there is no way to determine if that person is still

certified/licensed without access to the TDH website.

Ed Walsh LP

Re: Re: Legal Question

> Very important point you have made! Why should anyone (BLS or ALS) be

> willing to allow someone they know nothing about to take over patient

care.

> Having a paramedic card does not automatically make one a good (or even

> marginally competent) paramedic. We all know paramedics, doctors, nurses,

> EMTs, etc. that we wouldn't allow anywhere near our patients or our

family.

> Why should we let someone we know nothing about be in control of patient

> care in our department's vehicle.

>

> Maxine Pate

> hire-Pattison EMS

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

>

> >

> > So here's the question...If you currently work for a BLS transport

> provider,

> > does your company allow anybody who presents a paramedic credential to

not

> > only accompany you to the hospital, but to actually turn all control for

> > patient care over to that person? In other words, you arrive on scene

and

> a

> > person with a paramedic card tells you that the patient is ALS and so

he's

> > now in charge. You don't know the person at all. Does your company

> policy

> > let you step aside and tell the stranger with the card to go for it?

> >

> >

> > Ed Strout, RN, CEN, LP

> > Austin- County EMS

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

They DO require that your name, level, and department is prominently displayed

on your person at scenes as a nametag of sorts. Read Provider policy 01-3 on

the TDH BEM website.

Jane Hill

Re: Re: Legal Question

I believe that TDH rules only require that you be prominently identified by

name, level, and department. There is no TDH requirement to carry your card

or to have a photo ID.

Maxine Pate

hire-Pattison EMS

----- Original Message -----

> A word of warning - be careful with this. My understanding is that a

> paramedic, when practicing, must carry his/her certification/licensure at

> all times. Also, I believe that there's a requirement for a photo-ID,

> too, but I could understand that being waived in an emergency situation.

>

> Mike

>