Re: I am so lost, no one will help me, am I doing the right thing???

[Guest guest]

Dear " rehab " ,

You poor kid.

I am so sorry you have had to go through such horrific abuse. Your mother is

clearly very, very mentally ill, toxic, and destructive to you and herself.

You have done nothing wrong, it is NOT WRONG to protect yourself from abuse in

any form, and you have endured frightening, criminal levels of emotional and

physical abuse.

You did the right thing to have your mother arrested for attacking you. You

have done the only thing you could have done to help both yourself and her. She

will now hopefully see a different psychiatrist who will assess her properly and

get her in an in-patient facility for psychiatric treatment and for the other

medical care she needs.

I hope that you will now focus on your own health and recovery, both for you and

your husband, and give your marriage the attention and care you probably haven't

been able to give your relationship for a long time.

I also hope that you and your husband will think about seeking therapy as a

couple, and for each of you individually as well. You have to rid yourself of

the misplaced guilt you are torturing yourself with, its very important to get

rid of it. Nothing you have done, or didn't do, has *anything* to do with your

mother's personality disorder or her other mental and physical illnesses.

Nothing.

I wish you much strength and continued courage in your road to well-being. You

must have a core of steel to have survived in spite of all of it.

-Annie

>

> My is BPD but not diagnosed. I know it to the very depths of my soul, but no

one will listen, no one will hear me. They all just think she is very

depressed, but they don't encounter her rages the constant walking on egg shells

that I do to try and not gain her wrath. I just feel so hopeless. I finally

had to have her arrested. She is 63 has congestive heart failure, diabetes, the

beginings of renal failure, absence seizures and is on oxygen. I feel so

guilty. But she verbally abuses me day in and out and at time resorts to

physical abuse. The things she says are so horrible no one could even imagine

them no less beleive someone says them to you. I know she is in pain, but I

can't take the rages. She has told me I murdered my father, that she was glad I

miscarried my baby, that I am a whore, a liar, an abuser, that I keep her around

to abuse her, that I don't love her. She has said so many hurtful things to my

husband. She even made fun of abuse he underwent as a child. (he's been having

night terrors ever since.) She has her psychologist on a pedastal and I think

he is a quack. She even mentioned how she wouldn't mind F#$@ing him. She

treats my spouse as if he is hers not mine. She demands his constant attention,

then speaks offensively and innapropriately sexually to him. She came out nakid

the other week and asked him to see if she shaved her pubic region correctly.

When I confronted her, she said he always talks about sex with her. She also

said she also said he had to make sure she did it right because she didn't want

to be emberrised as she started balling. She tries to tell him to divroce me.

And she is always saying how I am the problem, that everything is fine until I

am around. She is a shopoholic who can't keep money to save her life. She

spent 10000 dollars on sterling flatwear no kidding. But none of her bills were

paid. She is also a hoarder collector. While my dad was alive she and he lived

with 22 cats and no cat boxes in utter filth that actually made then news I have

been told. I have tried so desperately to make her happy, but no matter what I

suggest it is wrong or she gives someone else credit for it. I have begged the

doctors for help but they can't discuss her case with me because of privacy.

What about safety. She has overdosed on her meds and her insulin. She has

threatened to kill herself more times than anyone can imagine. And then she

lives in filth and squallor. I began taping her rages after she threatened to

lie to the cops and say I beat her and that my husband raped her. Everything is

everyone elses fault and she is superior to everyone. She exhibits multiple

instances of all the DSM-r BPD criteria. But no one will listen. She can't

physically take care of herself. And that concerns me. Because she has

hoodwinked everyone with the sweet poor me routine. We were trying to get her

mentally evaluated but she is so manipulative and plays sain so well no one

thinks she is more than depressed. They won;t look at the pictures, the video,

the police reports. I have almost sacrificed my marriage for her. But I had to

stop. Everyone is telling me I am doing the right thing, so why do I feel so

guilty. Why is my heart ripping out. Why does it consume my every waking

thought when my husband is dealing with a horrific tragedy of his own right now.

She is just so pitiful, so vulnerable, she is in the hospital awaiting placement

in some sort of assited facility. I feel so bad she is only 63 and the people

in those places are so much older. She keeps begging me to let her back in.

That she will change That I am leaving her to die alone. She doesn't want to

be alone. I am abandoning her. Her mother abused her and my father was

psychotic and an alcoholic and beat the crap out of her. She has never leived

alone in 63 years. She got married at 18 and dad died 3 years ago. She says

she was a good wife for staying with him in sickness. That it was ok that he

beat her because he was sick. I just want her to be happy and healthy. She is

dieing slowly maybe in the next 3 to 5 years. But I can't keep feeling like I

am progressing her illness by abandoning her. But it is she or my marriage. I

love her so much and recall a time when the rages weren't daily. When they

would pop up sporadically. When she didn't need constant reassurance that we

loved and cared about her 20 or more times a day. I just feel so darn alone.

Like I have been let down by the medical community. I have almost a masters in

rehab counseling I know the DSM criteria I'm not just making a random guess. I

know in my heart she is BPD. But I can't get through to anyone. I feel guilty

for enjoying the peace we have had since she went to jail and then too the

hospital. I even get frightened at night because it is so quiet without her

hear. No constant sound making or narrations. I feel so bad turning away from

her because I know how vulnerable she feels. On the other hand she is constantly

attacking me. So what do I do. Is putting her in a home wrong? I have always

been the adult even when I was a child. I took care of them more than they me.

I just want to be able to relax and not have to try and fix everything. My

brother moved out when he was 14 because the verbal altercations with he were so

bad. He just wants to know when she passes now. But I feels so very guilty.

How can I reconcile the pain of taking care of myself over her. Of no longer

sacrificing my well being for hers. Everyone says I am doing the right thing.

But I don't feel like it. I just wish someone could hear me and help me, or help

her. That someone in the medical profession would take the time to give her an

MMPI that test is not easily manipulated and usually easily indicates psychosis

etc. But they just ask her if she is suicidal or is going kill someone. She

has threatened to kill me several times and I actually fear her on mnay levels.

My husabnd is concerned for my safety. But I am rambling. I just feel so

devistated by the whole ordeal. Is it wrong to walk away? Sorry for the typos

and sp errors. I am quite dyslexic. LOL Thanks for just listening or allowing

me to put this in writting.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I think in getting her into an assisted living situation, you are absolutely

doing the right thing.

I am wondering if, at some level, you still believe some of her " poor me

routine " yourself.  At 63, there are a few things in your life that are just

really unfortunate accidents and a lot of things that are the results of a

lifetime of the choices you have made.  She is now facing a number of things

that are the results of her choices: the consequences of a very stressful life

she has not taken adequate measures to address (both physically and

emotionally), loneliness because she has not learned how to be someone who can

maintain a healthy support system for herself, compromised relationhsips with

her own children because she has spent her life attacking them.  You are not

God.  You cannot expect yourself to create radically different outcomes in her

life in place of the natural outcomes.  She will expect you to do so because it

benefits her to believe that (both by giving herself a scapegoat and by

motivating you to try even harder), but it

does not change the facts.  She has a mental illness which you can actually do

very little about.

People have a right to neglect their own health, to refuse medical treatment

even when they will die without it, they have a right to eat badly and expose

themselves to known carcinogens.  They have a right to remain mentally ill.  You

want her to get better, but she doesn't.  Whatever her reasons for it, she

prefers to remain ill.  The doctors and other health workers may keep asking you

if she seems a danger to herself or others because that is the only way they can

reasonably force her into some kind of mental health care.  She is miserable,

and yet it's the life she continually chooses for herself.  How can you make it

anything else on her behalf?

All you can change is your own life and your own choices.  You can only

influence other people, and we have very little influence over mental illness. 

You ask how you can reconcile taking care of yourself over her.  My answer would

be because taking care of her does not actually help.  It has not made her less

bpd, it has not made her less angry, it has not made her any less unhappy.  Her

problem is beyond yours to fix, and she does not want to fix it.  But taking

care of yourself does.  It helps you, it helps your husband, and it may help a

number of other of people around you as well.

Take care,

Ashana

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[Guest guest]

Dear Rehab

An appropriate name for any KO. [] Welcome, your novel makes me

pretty convinced you are in the right place! I m going to go thru your

post and interject some thoughts of my own, and I certainly agree with

the thoughts annie has already shared with you.

>

> My is BPD but not diagnosed. I know it to the very depths of my soul,

but no one will listen, no one will hear me. They all just think she is

very depressed, but they don't encounter her rages the constant walking

on egg shells that I do to try and not gain her wrath.

My nada went on all her life about how her problem was MAJOR CLINICAL

DEPRESSION. At least 2 T s agreed she was certainly BP. But what a

face she could keep up, for a while.

I just feel so hopeless. I finally had to have her arrested. She is 63

has congestive heart failure, diabetes, the beginings of renal failure,

absence seizures and is on oxygen. I feel so guilty. But she verbally

abuses me day in and out and at time resorts to physical abuse. The

things she says are so horrible no one could even imagine them no less

beleive someone says them to you.

Trust me, any of us here in this land of Oz can believe the most

outrageous things that come out of nada s mouth. sss

I know she is in pain, but I can't take the rages. She has told me I

murdered my father, that she was glad I miscarried my baby, that I am a

whore, a liar, an abuser, that I keep her around to abuse her, that I

don't love her. She has said so many hurtful things to my husband. She

even made fun of abuse he underwent as a child. (he's been having night

terrors ever since.)

She has her psychologist on a pedastal and I think he is a quack. She

even mentioned how she wouldn't mind F#$@ing him.

Clearly boundery violations, and ethical and inappropriate relationship

with her T. Remember before you are sure he is a quack, that you cannot

rely on ANYTHING nada has told you he said. Unless you have heard it

from him, it likely didnt happen.

She treats my spouse as if he is hers not mine. She demands his constant

attention, then speaks offensively and innapropriately sexually to him.

She came out nakid the other week and asked him to see if she shaved her

pubic region correctly. When I confronted her, she said he always talks

about sex with her. She also said she also said he had to make sure she

did it right because she didn't want to be emberrised as she started

balling.

Sexually inappropriate talk, and boundery violations are common. One of

my nada s favorite defenses when she didnt want to continue an

uncomfortable converstation was to abruptly start to talk about my Dad s

sexual preferences, or his infidelities. Your nada s actions are extreme

to the point of emotional incest and mind rape. You would never accept

such behaviors from any other woman around your husband, nor should you

accept it from her. Nor should he.

She tries to tell him to divroce me. And she is always saying how I am

the problem, that everything is fine until I am around. She is a

shopoholic who can't keep money to save her life. She spent 10000

dollars on sterling flatwear no kidding. But none of her bills were

paid. She is also a hoarder collector. While my dad was alive she and he

lived with 22 cats and no cat boxes in utter filth that actually made

then news I have been told. I have tried so desperately to make her

happy, but no matter what I suggest it is wrong or she gives someone

else credit for it. I have begged the doctors for help but they can't

discuss her case with me because of privacy. What about safety. She has

overdosed on her meds and her insulin. She has threatened to kill

herself more times than anyone can imagine. And then she lives in filth

and squallor.

Of course YOU are the problem.! After all, nada is not responsible for

any of her bad behaviors. Hoarding is pretty common as well. My own

nada filled her homes with so much stuff that finally she could not get

in the door for garbage bags of stuff piled 2 and 3 deep from wall to

wall. She would prowl the alleys and pick up anything , clothes, broken

things, you name it. As far as her squalor and safety, I found the hard

way, that only if she is determined to be an immediate danger to herself

or others, would anyone intervene. And it is not your task to make her

happy. A good thing, because we are not capable of making nada happy.

Happy is a relative term, they are delighted to be miserable.

As far as her suicide threats, about 10% actually do, the rest

manipulate and torture others with the threats. I would suggest a policy

of taking every threat deadly serious, and immediately call 911 and

report it. Or call her Dr. She may deny it, but if you have witnesses, 2

Dr s can have her held on a 24 hr psych hold. My nada used suicidal

ideations all her life, until, a few years ago, she did it in her Dr

office. He called her shrink, and with him on the phone told her she

would either go to the hospital voluntarily or they would have the

sheriff pick her up and take her for a 24 hour psych eval. She was

furious, but she never, ever, again, until her death, mentioned

suicide.

Re your suggestions. I faced the same thing. Nothing I suggested, no

matter how sensible, things like, mom, lets clean your apartment and

then you can stop sleeping in your car ( she really did, parked just

outside her front door, because the apt was so filthy and cluttered you

could not enter. I fought guilt for not taking her in, but she had

money, she had a place, and when she came to stay at my house for a few

weeks or months she started to turn it into the same squalor as her own.

) she would argue around in circles till I was blue, then push my

buttons with sexual talk, and I d end up a raging maniac. I finally set

bounderies, where I would not talk to her if she violated my bounderies,

and if she complained about her problems, rather than play the game of

why dont you do this...oh I just cant..oh its so awful.....I would

simply say I m sorry that makes you unhappy, and then change the subject

and refuse to talk about it. If she pressed it, I would simply say I

could offer help or advice, but you have made it clear you wont listen

so I m not going to waste my breath. You are a grown woman and you have

to make your own decisions.

I began taping her rages after she threatened to lie to the cops and say

I beat her and that my husband raped her. Everything is everyone elses

fault and she is superior to everyone. She exhibits multiple instances

of all the DSM-r BPD criteria. But no one will listen. She can't

physically take care of herself. And that concerns me. Because she has

hoodwinked everyone with the sweet poor me routine. We were trying to

get her mentally evaluated but she is so manipulative and plays sain so

well no one thinks she is more than depressed. They won;t look at the

pictures, the video, the police reports.

She is a danger to you and your husband, and to your marriage. Your only

safe path is NC. You cannot get her evaluated, or pierce her defenses

and denials. It is not your job to do so, and it is not possible. If

the laws were different perhaps, but there it is. You MUST make your

first 10 priorities to be safe in your person and in your marraige. She

will suck you dry and leave you bleeding in her wake.

I have almost sacrificed my marriage for her. But I had to stop.

Everyone is telling me I am doing the right thing, so why do I feel so

guilty. Why is my heart ripping out.

You are indeed doing the right thing. But you were programmed with a

script from a very young age that says you are the adult, not her, you

are responsible for her needs, not she for yours, and you are a bad girl

if you dont meet her needs, which are impossible to meet! You need to

tell yourself that it is ok for you to be the daughter. You are in

pain, at least partly because you are grieving that loss.....of being a

daughter having a mother. She is acting toward you like a rebellious,

promiscuous teenager toward her mother. Many of them remain teenagers

up into their 70s and to their death. Mine did.

Why does it consume my every waking thought when my husband is dealing

with a horrific tragedy of his own right now. She is just so pitiful, so

vulnerable, she is in the hospital awaiting placement in some sort of

assited facility. I feel so bad she is only 63 and the people in those

places are so much older. She keeps begging me to let her back in. That

she will change That I am leaving her to die alone. She doesn't want to

be alone.

She doesnt want to die alone. You have enough compassion to not want

that either. Chances are, she will die alone. She will not change. Not

likely, and not based on her words. I would not even discuss taking her

back until she had spent a long time in therapy, and the therapy

included family therapy with you and your husband, able to discuss her

inappropriate behaviours and words to you both, in front of her T, and

both of you AND her T are convinced she has made signifigant progress.

If you put those conditions on it, I will likely drop. She wont do it.

If she does, wonderful, maybe she will start to get well. But of course

it will be your fault. But you know thats not true, right?

I am abandoning her. Her mother abused her and my father was psychotic

and an alcoholic and beat the crap out of her. She has never leived

alone in 63 years. She got married at 18 and dad died 3 years ago. She

says she was a good wife for staying with him in sickness. That it was

ok that he beat her because he was sick. I just want her to be happy and

healthy. She is dieing slowly maybe in the next 3 to 5 years. But I

can't keep feeling like I am progressing her illness by abandoning her.

But it is she or my marriage. I love her so much and recall a time when

the rages weren't daily. When they would pop up sporadically. When she

didn't need constant reassurance that we loved and cared about her 20 or

more times a day. I just feel so darn alone. Like I have been let down

by the medical community.

Of course you want her to be happy. You do love her, she is your mother.

She is simply not capable of being a mother, so she is nada. She is not

willing to make the changes to enable her to be a mother, and as a BP

she is a Hoover vac of emotional needs, hence the contant reassurance.

You may have been let down by the med comm, but talk to a number of

therapists who treat BPs. They will all tell you they are the hardest,

and the ones most likely to make a T leave practice and go do something

else to get away from the psycho bitches.

But you can t make it happen. If you have a masters in rehab, you must

be familiar with

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. (

nada)

The courage to change the things I can. ( yourself, period. You cant

even change your marriage alone, only your part of it. )

And the wisdom to know the difference.

I have almost a masters in rehab counseling I know the DSM criteria I'm

not just making a random guess. I know in my heart she is BPD. But I

can't get through to anyone. I feel guilty for enjoying the peace we

have had since she went to jail and then too the hospital. I even get

frightened at night because it is so quiet without her hear. No constant

sound making or narrations. I feel so bad turning away from her because

I know how vulnerable she feels. On the other hand she is constantly

attacking me. So what do I do. Is putting her in a home wrong? I have

always been the adult even when I was a child. I took care of them more

than they me. I just want to be able to relax and not have to try and

fix everything.

That was so wrong. You were supposed to be the child. She does feel

vulnerable, and has a pathological fear of abandonment. This would be a

good time for her to agree to substantive therapy. But she wont. My nada

stopped taking Depakote cold turkey, and was in a psychotic break,

hearing music and voices that were not there, 2 days before she died.

She would not go to her Dr, or a hospital, or get back on the meds, and

was not a danger to herself or others. So..I could do nothing.

Hey Re, you can relax. You do not have to fix everything. Not that you

could. You have permission. Its ok.

Read a good book. Bounderies, or Surviving the Borderline Parent are 2

that come to mind.

Its ok. You are not a bad person. You are a good person put in a

horrible situation by NO fault of your own. Its ok

It IS NOT your fault.

My brother moved out when he was 14 because the verbal altercations with

he were so bad. He just wants to know when she passes now. But I feels

so very guilty. How can I reconcile the pain of taking care of myself

over her. Of no longer sacrificing my well being for hers. Everyone says

I am doing the right thing. But I don't feel like it. I just wish

someone could hear me and help me, or help her. That someone in the

medical profession would take the time to give her an MMPI that test is

not easily manipulated and usually easily indicates psychosis etc. But

they just ask her if she is suicidal or is going kill someone.

Sadly, again, even if you get her a good eval, and the diagnosis is what

you suspect it is, so what? If she doesnt buy it and seek and want help,

she wont change. Surely you have counseled enough addicts by now to

realize you can never help the person who doesnt want it.

She has threatened to kill me several times and I actually fear her on

mnay levels. My husabnd is concerned for my safety. But I am rambling. I

just feel so devistated by the whole ordeal. Is it wrong to walk away?

No. It is not. Sorry for the typos and sp errors. I am quite dyslexic.

LOL Thanks for just listening or allowing me to put this in writting.

They make us feel like the crazy ones. Perhaps in a way we are. We

suffer from situational psychosis. However, we can choose to walk away

from the situation, and recover our sanity and life, and be normal and

healthy and happy. I lost my mom about 5 weeks ago. I m grieving. I feel

guilty at times. But I have to remind myself, it is not true guilt, but

just remorse and sadness that she chose as she did. I didnt cause it. I

couldnt fix it. I could only choose health for myself.

Peace.

Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Rehab, you have a truly awful situation and I am sorry you have gone and are

going through so much. I would suggest that you get in therapy if you aren't

already right away. I have had mixed results in therapy, but I do find that the

bigger and more clearcut the issues, the better the therapist is able to help.

Your situation is very clear as a blazing neon sign - my guess is most

therapists will be able to provide you help. One of the hardest things is to

admit that you cannot trust your own thoughts and emotions to be accurate or in

your best interest. But this is what is true - to some degree - when one has

been brainwashed since childhood by a parent whose goal is to make you be a

permanent lifelong slave. The guilt you feel - is it really yours? Where does

it come from? The responsibility you feel for her - again where does it come

from? Look deep and you will see that she programmed it into you. I've found

even knowing that, it is very hard to fight without having other people in real

life who can look me in the eye and tell me that it's crazy. My feeling is that

you need that - this group too serves a very important role in that way too.

Your husband may be too close to the situation as well to be that objective

mirror for you.

Ultimately it sounds like your mother with her health issues *should* be cared

for by professionals. That's not abandoning her - plenty of people aren't

equipped to take care of someone with complex medical issues (much less mental!)

If the emotional part is just too hard to deal with right now, reduce it to the

medical issues - on that basis alone you can walk away and leave the

responsibility to those whose job it is.

peace and courage to you,

julie

>

> My is BPD but not diagnosed. I know it to the very depths of my soul, but no

one will listen, no one will hear me. They all just think she is very

depressed, but they don't encounter her rages the constant walking on egg shells

that I do to try and not gain her wrath. I just feel so hopeless. I finally

had to have her arrested. She is 63 has congestive heart failure, diabetes, the

beginings of renal failure, absence seizures and is on oxygen. I feel so

guilty. But she verbally abuses me day in and out and at time resorts to

physical abuse. The things she says are so horrible no one could even imagine

them no less beleive someone says them to you. I know she is in pain, but I

can't take the rages. She has told me I murdered my father, that she was glad I

miscarried my baby, that I am a whore, a liar, an abuser, that I keep her around

to abuse her, that I don't love her. She has said so many hurtful things to my

husband. She even made fun of abuse he underwent as a child. (he's been having

night terrors ever since.) She has her psychologist on a pedastal and I think

he is a quack. She even mentioned how she wouldn't mind F#$@ing him. She

treats my spouse as if he is hers not mine. She demands his constant attention,

then speaks offensively and innapropriately sexually to him. She came out nakid

the other week and asked him to see if she shaved her pubic region correctly.

When I confronted her, she said he always talks about sex with her. She also

said she also said he had to make sure she did it right because she didn't want

to be emberrised as she started balling. She tries to tell him to divroce me.

And she is always saying how I am the problem, that everything is fine until I

am around. She is a shopoholic who can't keep money to save her life. She

spent 10000 dollars on sterling flatwear no kidding. But none of her bills were

paid. She is also a hoarder collector. While my dad was alive she and he lived

with 22 cats and no cat boxes in utter filth that actually made then news I have

been told. I have tried so desperately to make her happy, but no matter what I

suggest it is wrong or she gives someone else credit for it. I have begged the

doctors for help but they can't discuss her case with me because of privacy.

What about safety. She has overdosed on her meds and her insulin. She has

threatened to kill herself more times than anyone can imagine. And then she

lives in filth and squallor. I began taping her rages after she threatened to

lie to the cops and say I beat her and that my husband raped her. Everything is

everyone elses fault and she is superior to everyone. She exhibits multiple

instances of all the DSM-r BPD criteria. But no one will listen. She can't

physically take care of herself. And that concerns me. Because she has

hoodwinked everyone with the sweet poor me routine. We were trying to get her

mentally evaluated but she is so manipulative and plays sain so well no one

thinks she is more than depressed. They won;t look at the pictures, the video,

the police reports. I have almost sacrificed my marriage for her. But I had to

stop. Everyone is telling me I am doing the right thing, so why do I feel so

guilty. Why is my heart ripping out. Why does it consume my every waking

thought when my husband is dealing with a horrific tragedy of his own right now.

She is just so pitiful, so vulnerable, she is in the hospital awaiting placement

in some sort of assited facility. I feel so bad she is only 63 and the people

in those places are so much older. She keeps begging me to let her back in.

That she will change That I am leaving her to die alone. She doesn't want to

be alone. I am abandoning her. Her mother abused her and my father was

psychotic and an alcoholic and beat the crap out of her. She has never leived

alone in 63 years. She got married at 18 and dad died 3 years ago. She says

she was a good wife for staying with him in sickness. That it was ok that he

beat her because he was sick. I just want her to be happy and healthy. She is

dieing slowly maybe in the next 3 to 5 years. But I can't keep feeling like I

am progressing her illness by abandoning her. But it is she or my marriage. I

love her so much and recall a time when the rages weren't daily. When they

would pop up sporadically. When she didn't need constant reassurance that we

loved and cared about her 20 or more times a day. I just feel so darn alone.

Like I have been let down by the medical community. I have almost a masters in

rehab counseling I know the DSM criteria I'm not just making a random guess. I

know in my heart she is BPD. But I can't get through to anyone. I feel guilty

for enjoying the peace we have had since she went to jail and then too the

hospital. I even get frightened at night because it is so quiet without her

hear. No constant sound making or narrations. I feel so bad turning away from

her because I know how vulnerable she feels. On the other hand she is constantly

attacking me. So what do I do. Is putting her in a home wrong? I have always

been the adult even when I was a child. I took care of them more than they me.

I just want to be able to relax and not have to try and fix everything. My

brother moved out when he was 14 because the verbal altercations with he were so

bad. He just wants to know when she passes now. But I feels so very guilty.

How can I reconcile the pain of taking care of myself over her. Of no longer

sacrificing my well being for hers. Everyone says I am doing the right thing.

But I don't feel like it. I just wish someone could hear me and help me, or help

her. That someone in the medical profession would take the time to give her an

MMPI that test is not easily manipulated and usually easily indicates psychosis

etc. But they just ask her if she is suicidal or is going kill someone. She

has threatened to kill me several times and I actually fear her on mnay levels.

My husabnd is concerned for my safety. But I am rambling. I just feel so

devistated by the whole ordeal. Is it wrong to walk away? Sorry for the typos

and sp errors. I am quite dyslexic. LOL Thanks for just listening or allowing

me to put this in writting.

>

[Guest guest]

Y'all thanks so much for listening. It its almost scarey how similar all of our

experiences are. Almost word for word. I think the guilt is what I have such a

hard time escaping. But I truly just feel sorry for her. It makes me sad. I

had the double joy of having a schizophrenic father who was an alcoholic. I

thought everyone would be dead if I wasn't there to intervene. My hubby and I

went to the hosptial tonight to try and convince her to seek treatment before

they discharge her tommorow. She refuses to go to a public facility and her on

the MS gulf coast thanks to Katrina that is not an option. She would rather go

to a homeless shelter. Yet her reason for not wanting to go to a public

facility is because she doesn't want a black room mate. Hmm the homeless shelter

probably is more culturally diverse than the psych hospital but hey she can use

the shelter as a guilt trip. The hospital knows she is not allowed home. Very

difficult for me to do. It is so hard for me. It hurts really bad. It hurts

even more because I have trouble because from a professional stand point I

comprehend her illness. (lucky me got to work with some BP's during my

internship in grad school.) But emotionally I am still the child of a BPD. And

I can't detach myself enough to rationally deal with her. Hmmm why did I choose

to go into a social services career? Could it be my childhood? LOL I told her

the facts. I explained her illness to her. She proceeded to inform me how all

the psychologists, psychiatrists, and social workers say she is fine. That's

cause they don't get the fun of experiencing her rages. Andshe says that she

can have a car. (it's sucks but it's in our name thank God.) And after she said

that she didn't care if she had an accident due to her diabetes and heart

failure and killed someone because she would be dead anyway, I decided she

would never drive again. She hasn't had a license in over 12 years anyway.

She tried all the guilt trips, the I don't love her. I told her I love her but

I love myself enough to take care of myself.That I am leaving her to die alone.

I told her most widows live alone that it was normal. I told her I wanted her to

be well so she could meet her future grand kids eventually. And all she could

say was she knew I would never let her see them. I know she won't get help. She

is too busy prooving that she is sain and capable of taking car of herself. I

am supposed to talk to the judge in the am to sign something to drop the charges

so she can get in a permanent housing. But I am also supposed to request a

conservitorship. It's something I'm not sure I understand, but makes her seek

medical attention. I guess I'll find out in the morning. It's so hard on me

because I tried so hard to prevent my dad from killing himself with alcohol.

Even got him in treatment for a 2 month stay. I think he tried to finally stop

drinking and got sick from it. I was so mean to him because I thought he was

drunk and he was actually throwing up blood. I didn't know it, but it was the

day before he died. We made him go to the hospital and dropped him off and he he

went into a coma 5 minutes later. He died that night. I found his papers from

the hopsital and it said how hard and mean I was to him. So I have a lot of

guilt over that. And Mom loves to attack me with that one. Telling me I never

loved him and that I murdered him. God, why did I hit the mental illness

jackpot. Heck I am ADHD, with severe anxiety disorder and panic attacks.

Although Mom makes me feel crazy and sometimes it works. Sorry I am all over the

place tonight. I am just so overwhelmed. And to make things more fun my hubby

had issues with drugs which mom help to create. He's clean now and stable. He

was abused by a family member when he was younger and is just coming to terms

with it. Of course Mom said a wonderful hate filled comment last week about how

she bet the Abuser enjoyed doing and had a smile on his face the whole time. And

you wonder why he turned to drugs. Poor baby has had night terrors ever since.

He wakes up screaming. But all of our marital issues magically disappeared when

she did and so did any drug use. He said he did it to escape her. I just ate

myself into a plus sized lady. What hurts most she was a terrific mom a lot when

I was growing up. She didn't let the crazy out daily or more realistically my

brother was the target of her rage and hate. But I had some normal memories to

cherish. Which makes it more devastating. But ironically she taught me to not

judge others, to be compassionate, to not be materialistic. Everything she

depsises and hates me for now. I guess I miss those normal moments, it makes it

so hard to let go. She taught me how to cook, sew, she actually saved my guinna

pic who was paralized by giving it swimming in the sink and putting a half a

shoe skate on it's rear so it could be mobile. Did I mention they both had

cancer too? I had to stay back a year in school because of that. I must sound

crazy right now. My thoughts are so random. Again thank you for listening to

my rambling. I am emotionally drained tonight and need to rest. God bless

y'all. Good night.

> >

> > My is BPD but not diagnosed. I know it to the very depths of my soul,

> but no one will listen, no one will hear me. They all just think she is

> very depressed, but they don't encounter her rages the constant walking

> on egg shells that I do to try and not gain her wrath.

>

> My nada went on all her life about how her problem was MAJOR CLINICAL

> DEPRESSION. At least 2 T s agreed she was certainly BP. But what a

> face she could keep up, for a while.

>

> I just feel so hopeless. I finally had to have her arrested. She is 63

> has congestive heart failure, diabetes, the beginings of renal failure,

> absence seizures and is on oxygen. I feel so guilty. But she verbally

> abuses me day in and out and at time resorts to physical abuse. The

> things she says are so horrible no one could even imagine them no less

> beleive someone says them to you.

>

> Trust me, any of us here in this land of Oz can believe the most

> outrageous things that come out of nada s mouth. sss

>

> I know she is in pain, but I can't take the rages. She has told me I

> murdered my father, that she was glad I miscarried my baby, that I am a

> whore, a liar, an abuser, that I keep her around to abuse her, that I

> don't love her. She has said so many hurtful things to my husband. She

> even made fun of abuse he underwent as a child. (he's been having night

> terrors ever since.)

>

> She has her psychologist on a pedastal and I think he is a quack. She

> even mentioned how she wouldn't mind F#$@ing him.

>

> Clearly boundery violations, and ethical and inappropriate relationship

> with her T. Remember before you are sure he is a quack, that you cannot

> rely on ANYTHING nada has told you he said. Unless you have heard it

> from him, it likely didnt happen.

>

>

>

> She treats my spouse as if he is hers not mine. She demands his constant

> attention, then speaks offensively and innapropriately sexually to him.

> She came out nakid the other week and asked him to see if she shaved her

> pubic region correctly. When I confronted her, she said he always talks

> about sex with her. She also said she also said he had to make sure she

> did it right because she didn't want to be emberrised as she started

> balling.

>

> Sexually inappropriate talk, and boundery violations are common. One of

> my nada s favorite defenses when she didnt want to continue an

> uncomfortable converstation was to abruptly start to talk about my Dad s

> sexual preferences, or his infidelities. Your nada s actions are extreme

> to the point of emotional incest and mind rape. You would never accept

> such behaviors from any other woman around your husband, nor should you

> accept it from her. Nor should he.

>

> She tries to tell him to divroce me. And she is always saying how I am

> the problem, that everything is fine until I am around. She is a

> shopoholic who can't keep money to save her life. She spent 10000

> dollars on sterling flatwear no kidding. But none of her bills were

> paid. She is also a hoarder collector. While my dad was alive she and he

> lived with 22 cats and no cat boxes in utter filth that actually made

> then news I have been told. I have tried so desperately to make her

> happy, but no matter what I suggest it is wrong or she gives someone

> else credit for it. I have begged the doctors for help but they can't

> discuss her case with me because of privacy. What about safety. She has

> overdosed on her meds and her insulin. She has threatened to kill

> herself more times than anyone can imagine. And then she lives in filth

> and squallor.

>

> Of course YOU are the problem.! After all, nada is not responsible for

> any of her bad behaviors. Hoarding is pretty common as well. My own

> nada filled her homes with so much stuff that finally she could not get

> in the door for garbage bags of stuff piled 2 and 3 deep from wall to

> wall. She would prowl the alleys and pick up anything , clothes, broken

> things, you name it. As far as her squalor and safety, I found the hard

> way, that only if she is determined to be an immediate danger to herself

> or others, would anyone intervene. And it is not your task to make her

> happy. A good thing, because we are not capable of making nada happy.

> Happy is a relative term, they are delighted to be miserable.

>

> As far as her suicide threats, about 10% actually do, the rest

> manipulate and torture others with the threats. I would suggest a policy

> of taking every threat deadly serious, and immediately call 911 and

> report it. Or call her Dr. She may deny it, but if you have witnesses, 2

> Dr s can have her held on a 24 hr psych hold. My nada used suicidal

> ideations all her life, until, a few years ago, she did it in her Dr

> office. He called her shrink, and with him on the phone told her she

> would either go to the hospital voluntarily or they would have the

> sheriff pick her up and take her for a 24 hour psych eval. She was

> furious, but she never, ever, again, until her death, mentioned

> suicide.

>

> Re your suggestions. I faced the same thing. Nothing I suggested, no

> matter how sensible, things like, mom, lets clean your apartment and

> then you can stop sleeping in your car ( she really did, parked just

> outside her front door, because the apt was so filthy and cluttered you

> could not enter. I fought guilt for not taking her in, but she had

> money, she had a place, and when she came to stay at my house for a few

> weeks or months she started to turn it into the same squalor as her own.

> ) she would argue around in circles till I was blue, then push my

> buttons with sexual talk, and I d end up a raging maniac. I finally set

> bounderies, where I would not talk to her if she violated my bounderies,

> and if she complained about her problems, rather than play the game of

> why dont you do this...oh I just cant..oh its so awful.....I would

> simply say I m sorry that makes you unhappy, and then change the subject

> and refuse to talk about it. If she pressed it, I would simply say I

> could offer help or advice, but you have made it clear you wont listen

> so I m not going to waste my breath. You are a grown woman and you have

> to make your own decisions.

>

> I began taping her rages after she threatened to lie to the cops and say

> I beat her and that my husband raped her. Everything is everyone elses

> fault and she is superior to everyone. She exhibits multiple instances

> of all the DSM-r BPD criteria. But no one will listen. She can't

> physically take care of herself. And that concerns me. Because she has

> hoodwinked everyone with the sweet poor me routine. We were trying to

> get her mentally evaluated but she is so manipulative and plays sain so

> well no one thinks she is more than depressed. They won;t look at the

> pictures, the video, the police reports.

>

> She is a danger to you and your husband, and to your marriage. Your only

> safe path is NC. You cannot get her evaluated, or pierce her defenses

> and denials. It is not your job to do so, and it is not possible. If

> the laws were different perhaps, but there it is. You MUST make your

> first 10 priorities to be safe in your person and in your marraige. She

> will suck you dry and leave you bleeding in her wake.

>

> I have almost sacrificed my marriage for her. But I had to stop.

> Everyone is telling me I am doing the right thing, so why do I feel so

> guilty. Why is my heart ripping out.

>

> You are indeed doing the right thing. But you were programmed with a

> script from a very young age that says you are the adult, not her, you

> are responsible for her needs, not she for yours, and you are a bad girl

> if you dont meet her needs, which are impossible to meet! You need to

> tell yourself that it is ok for you to be the daughter. You are in

> pain, at least partly because you are grieving that loss.....of being a

> daughter having a mother. She is acting toward you like a rebellious,

> promiscuous teenager toward her mother. Many of them remain teenagers

> up into their 70s and to their death. Mine did.

>

>

>

> Why does it consume my every waking thought when my husband is dealing

> with a horrific tragedy of his own right now. She is just so pitiful, so

> vulnerable, she is in the hospital awaiting placement in some sort of

> assited facility. I feel so bad she is only 63 and the people in those

> places are so much older. She keeps begging me to let her back in. That

> she will change That I am leaving her to die alone. She doesn't want to

> be alone.

>

> She doesnt want to die alone. You have enough compassion to not want

> that either. Chances are, she will die alone. She will not change. Not

> likely, and not based on her words. I would not even discuss taking her

> back until she had spent a long time in therapy, and the therapy

> included family therapy with you and your husband, able to discuss her

> inappropriate behaviours and words to you both, in front of her T, and

> both of you AND her T are convinced she has made signifigant progress.

> If you put those conditions on it, I will likely drop. She wont do it.

> If she does, wonderful, maybe she will start to get well. But of course

> it will be your fault. But you know thats not true, right?

>

>

>

>

>

> I am abandoning her. Her mother abused her and my father was psychotic

> and an alcoholic and beat the crap out of her. She has never leived

> alone in 63 years. She got married at 18 and dad died 3 years ago. She

> says she was a good wife for staying with him in sickness. That it was

> ok that he beat her because he was sick. I just want her to be happy and

> healthy. She is dieing slowly maybe in the next 3 to 5 years. But I

> can't keep feeling like I am progressing her illness by abandoning her.

> But it is she or my marriage. I love her so much and recall a time when

> the rages weren't daily. When they would pop up sporadically. When she

> didn't need constant reassurance that we loved and cared about her 20 or

> more times a day. I just feel so darn alone. Like I have been let down

> by the medical community.

>

> Of course you want her to be happy. You do love her, she is your mother.

> She is simply not capable of being a mother, so she is nada. She is not

> willing to make the changes to enable her to be a mother, and as a BP

> she is a Hoover vac of emotional needs, hence the contant reassurance.

> You may have been let down by the med comm, but talk to a number of

> therapists who treat BPs. They will all tell you they are the hardest,

> and the ones most likely to make a T leave practice and go do something

> else to get away from the psycho bitches.

>

> But you can t make it happen. If you have a masters in rehab, you must

> be familiar with

>

> God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. (

> nada)

>

> The courage to change the things I can. ( yourself, period. You cant

> even change your marriage alone, only your part of it. )

>

> And the wisdom to know the difference.

>

> I have almost a masters in rehab counseling I know the DSM criteria I'm

> not just making a random guess. I know in my heart she is BPD. But I

> can't get through to anyone. I feel guilty for enjoying the peace we

> have had since she went to jail and then too the hospital. I even get

> frightened at night because it is so quiet without her hear. No constant

> sound making or narrations. I feel so bad turning away from her because

> I know how vulnerable she feels. On the other hand she is constantly

> attacking me. So what do I do. Is putting her in a home wrong? I have

> always been the adult even when I was a child. I took care of them more

> than they me. I just want to be able to relax and not have to try and

> fix everything.

>

> That was so wrong. You were supposed to be the child. She does feel

> vulnerable, and has a pathological fear of abandonment. This would be a

> good time for her to agree to substantive therapy. But she wont. My nada

> stopped taking Depakote cold turkey, and was in a psychotic break,

> hearing music and voices that were not there, 2 days before she died.

> She would not go to her Dr, or a hospital, or get back on the meds, and

> was not a danger to herself or others. So..I could do nothing.

>

> Hey Re, you can relax. You do not have to fix everything. Not that you

> could. You have permission. Its ok.

>

> Read a good book. Bounderies, or Surviving the Borderline Parent are 2

> that come to mind.

> Its ok. You are not a bad person. You are a good person put in a

> horrible situation by NO fault of your own. Its ok

>

> It IS NOT your fault.

>

> My brother moved out when he was 14 because the verbal altercations with

> he were so bad. He just wants to know when she passes now. But I feels

> so very guilty. How can I reconcile the pain of taking care of myself

> over her. Of no longer sacrificing my well being for hers. Everyone says

> I am doing the right thing. But I don't feel like it. I just wish

> someone could hear me and help me, or help her. That someone in the

> medical profession would take the time to give her an MMPI that test is

> not easily manipulated and usually easily indicates psychosis etc. But

> they just ask her if she is suicidal or is going kill someone.

>

> Sadly, again, even if you get her a good eval, and the diagnosis is what

> you suspect it is, so what? If she doesnt buy it and seek and want help,

> she wont change. Surely you have counseled enough addicts by now to

> realize you can never help the person who doesnt want it.

>

> She has threatened to kill me several times and I actually fear her on

> mnay levels. My husabnd is concerned for my safety. But I am rambling. I

> just feel so devistated by the whole ordeal. Is it wrong to walk away?

> No. It is not. Sorry for the typos and sp errors. I am quite dyslexic.

> LOL Thanks for just listening or allowing me to put this in writting.

>

>

>

> They make us feel like the crazy ones. Perhaps in a way we are. We

> suffer from situational psychosis. However, we can choose to walk away

> from the situation, and recover our sanity and life, and be normal and

> healthy and happy. I lost my mom about 5 weeks ago. I m grieving. I feel

> guilty at times. But I have to remind myself, it is not true guilt, but

> just remorse and sadness that she chose as she did. I didnt cause it. I

> couldnt fix it. I could only choose health for myself.

>

>

>

> Peace.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow doug, going to Catholic school we said that prayer every morning. I really

need to use it more often. I am sorry for you loss, but I realize it's more

guilt for you now, your loss was long long ago. I just wanted to be

acknowledged. I have fought for that my whole life. It frightens me some times

when I fall into similar behaviors as she. I do admit I had problems to being

super clean and being overly emotional. But mostly it's over making mistakes I

can't seem to forgive myself for them They haunt me for years. And stupid

stuff, but hey mom never raged on me for something that happened when I was 16

for 4 hours a few months ago. I'm 38 now.

Thanks again for listening.

> >

> > My is BPD but not diagnosed. I know it to the very depths of my soul,

> but no one will listen, no one will hear me. They all just think she is

> very depressed, but they don't encounter her rages the constant walking

> on egg shells that I do to try and not gain her wrath.

>

> My nada went on all her life about how her problem was MAJOR CLINICAL

> DEPRESSION. At least 2 T s agreed she was certainly BP. But what a

> face she could keep up, for a while.

>

> I just feel so hopeless. I finally had to have her arrested. She is 63

> has congestive heart failure, diabetes, the beginings of renal failure,

> absence seizures and is on oxygen. I feel so guilty. But she verbally

> abuses me day in and out and at time resorts to physical abuse. The

> things she says are so horrible no one could even imagine them no less

> beleive someone says them to you.

>

> Trust me, any of us here in this land of Oz can believe the most

> outrageous things that come out of nada s mouth. sss

>

> I know she is in pain, but I can't take the rages. She has told me I

> murdered my father, that she was glad I miscarried my baby, that I am a

> whore, a liar, an abuser, that I keep her around to abuse her, that I

> don't love her. She has said so many hurtful things to my husband. She

> even made fun of abuse he underwent as a child. (he's been having night

> terrors ever since.)

>

> She has her psychologist on a pedastal and I think he is a quack. She

> even mentioned how she wouldn't mind F#$@ing him.

>

> Clearly boundery violations, and ethical and inappropriate relationship

> with her T. Remember before you are sure he is a quack, that you cannot

> rely on ANYTHING nada has told you he said. Unless you have heard it

> from him, it likely didnt happen.

>

>

>

> She treats my spouse as if he is hers not mine. She demands his constant

> attention, then speaks offensively and innapropriately sexually to him.

> She came out nakid the other week and asked him to see if she shaved her

> pubic region correctly. When I confronted her, she said he always talks

> about sex with her. She also said she also said he had to make sure she

> did it right because she didn't want to be emberrised as she started

> balling.

>

> Sexually inappropriate talk, and boundery violations are common. One of

> my nada s favorite defenses when she didnt want to continue an

> uncomfortable converstation was to abruptly start to talk about my Dad s

> sexual preferences, or his infidelities. Your nada s actions are extreme

> to the point of emotional incest and mind rape. You would never accept

> such behaviors from any other woman around your husband, nor should you

> accept it from her. Nor should he.

>

> She tries to tell him to divroce me. And she is always saying how I am

> the problem, that everything is fine until I am around. She is a

> shopoholic who can't keep money to save her life. She spent 10000

> dollars on sterling flatwear no kidding. But none of her bills were

> paid. She is also a hoarder collector. While my dad was alive she and he

> lived with 22 cats and no cat boxes in utter filth that actually made

> then news I have been told. I have tried so desperately to make her

> happy, but no matter what I suggest it is wrong or she gives someone

> else credit for it. I have begged the doctors for help but they can't

> discuss her case with me because of privacy. What about safety. She has

> overdosed on her meds and her insulin. She has threatened to kill

> herself more times than anyone can imagine. And then she lives in filth

> and squallor.

>

> Of course YOU are the problem.! After all, nada is not responsible for

> any of her bad behaviors. Hoarding is pretty common as well. My own

> nada filled her homes with so much stuff that finally she could not get

> in the door for garbage bags of stuff piled 2 and 3 deep from wall to

> wall. She would prowl the alleys and pick up anything , clothes, broken

> things, you name it. As far as her squalor and safety, I found the hard

> way, that only if she is determined to be an immediate danger to herself

> or others, would anyone intervene. And it is not your task to make her

> happy. A good thing, because we are not capable of making nada happy.

> Happy is a relative term, they are delighted to be miserable.

>

> As far as her suicide threats, about 10% actually do, the rest

> manipulate and torture others with the threats. I would suggest a policy

> of taking every threat deadly serious, and immediately call 911 and

> report it. Or call her Dr. She may deny it, but if you have witnesses, 2

> Dr s can have her held on a 24 hr psych hold. My nada used suicidal

> ideations all her life, until, a few years ago, she did it in her Dr

> office. He called her shrink, and with him on the phone told her she

> would either go to the hospital voluntarily or they would have the

> sheriff pick her up and take her for a 24 hour psych eval. She was

> furious, but she never, ever, again, until her death, mentioned

> suicide.

>

> Re your suggestions. I faced the same thing. Nothing I suggested, no

> matter how sensible, things like, mom, lets clean your apartment and

> then you can stop sleeping in your car ( she really did, parked just

> outside her front door, because the apt was so filthy and cluttered you

> could not enter. I fought guilt for not taking her in, but she had

> money, she had a place, and when she came to stay at my house for a few

> weeks or months she started to turn it into the same squalor as her own.

> ) she would argue around in circles till I was blue, then push my

> buttons with sexual talk, and I d end up a raging maniac. I finally set

> bounderies, where I would not talk to her if she violated my bounderies,

> and if she complained about her problems, rather than play the game of

> why dont you do this...oh I just cant..oh its so awful.....I would

> simply say I m sorry that makes you unhappy, and then change the subject

> and refuse to talk about it. If she pressed it, I would simply say I

> could offer help or advice, but you have made it clear you wont listen

> so I m not going to waste my breath. You are a grown woman and you have

> to make your own decisions.

>

> I began taping her rages after she threatened to lie to the cops and say

> I beat her and that my husband raped her. Everything is everyone elses

> fault and she is superior to everyone. She exhibits multiple instances

> of all the DSM-r BPD criteria. But no one will listen. She can't

> physically take care of herself. And that concerns me. Because she has

> hoodwinked everyone with the sweet poor me routine. We were trying to

> get her mentally evaluated but she is so manipulative and plays sain so

> well no one thinks she is more than depressed. They won;t look at the

> pictures, the video, the police reports.

>

> She is a danger to you and your husband, and to your marriage. Your only

> safe path is NC. You cannot get her evaluated, or pierce her defenses

> and denials. It is not your job to do so, and it is not possible. If

> the laws were different perhaps, but there it is. You MUST make your

> first 10 priorities to be safe in your person and in your marraige. She

> will suck you dry and leave you bleeding in her wake.

>

> I have almost sacrificed my marriage for her. But I had to stop.

> Everyone is telling me I am doing the right thing, so why do I feel so

> guilty. Why is my heart ripping out.

>

> You are indeed doing the right thing. But you were programmed with a

> script from a very young age that says you are the adult, not her, you

> are responsible for her needs, not she for yours, and you are a bad girl

> if you dont meet her needs, which are impossible to meet! You need to

> tell yourself that it is ok for you to be the daughter. You are in

> pain, at least partly because you are grieving that loss.....of being a

> daughter having a mother. She is acting toward you like a rebellious,

> promiscuous teenager toward her mother. Many of them remain teenagers

> up into their 70s and to their death. Mine did.

>

>

>

> Why does it consume my every waking thought when my husband is dealing

> with a horrific tragedy of his own right now. She is just so pitiful, so

> vulnerable, she is in the hospital awaiting placement in some sort of

> assited facility. I feel so bad she is only 63 and the people in those

> places are so much older. She keeps begging me to let her back in. That

> she will change That I am leaving her to die alone. She doesn't want to

> be alone.

>

> She doesnt want to die alone. You have enough compassion to not want

> that either. Chances are, she will die alone. She will not change. Not

> likely, and not based on her words. I would not even discuss taking her

> back until she had spent a long time in therapy, and the therapy

> included family therapy with you and your husband, able to discuss her

> inappropriate behaviours and words to you both, in front of her T, and

> both of you AND her T are convinced she has made signifigant progress.

> If you put those conditions on it, I will likely drop. She wont do it.

> If she does, wonderful, maybe she will start to get well. But of course

> it will be your fault. But you know thats not true, right?

>

>

>

>

>

> I am abandoning her. Her mother abused her and my father was psychotic

> and an alcoholic and beat the crap out of her. She has never leived

> alone in 63 years. She got married at 18 and dad died 3 years ago. She

> says she was a good wife for staying with him in sickness. That it was

> ok that he beat her because he was sick. I just want her to be happy and

> healthy. She is dieing slowly maybe in the next 3 to 5 years. But I

> can't keep feeling like I am progressing her illness by abandoning her.

> But it is she or my marriage. I love her so much and recall a time when

> the rages weren't daily. When they would pop up sporadically. When she

> didn't need constant reassurance that we loved and cared about her 20 or

> more times a day. I just feel so darn alone. Like I have been let down

> by the medical community.

>

> Of course you want her to be happy. You do love her, she is your mother.

> She is simply not capable of being a mother, so she is nada. She is not

> willing to make the changes to enable her to be a mother, and as a BP

> she is a Hoover vac of emotional needs, hence the contant reassurance.

> You may have been let down by the med comm, but talk to a number of

> therapists who treat BPs. They will all tell you they are the hardest,

> and the ones most likely to make a T leave practice and go do something

> else to get away from the psycho bitches.

>

> But you can t make it happen. If you have a masters in rehab, you must

> be familiar with

>

> God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. (

> nada)

>

> The courage to change the things I can. ( yourself, period. You cant

> even change your marriage alone, only your part of it. )

>

> And the wisdom to know the difference.

>

> I have almost a masters in rehab counseling I know the DSM criteria I'm

> not just making a random guess. I know in my heart she is BPD. But I

> can't get through to anyone. I feel guilty for enjoying the peace we

> have had since she went to jail and then too the hospital. I even get

> frightened at night because it is so quiet without her hear. No constant

> sound making or narrations. I feel so bad turning away from her because

> I know how vulnerable she feels. On the other hand she is constantly

> attacking me. So what do I do. Is putting her in a home wrong? I have

> always been the adult even when I was a child. I took care of them more

> than they me. I just want to be able to relax and not have to try and

> fix everything.

>

> That was so wrong. You were supposed to be the child. She does feel

> vulnerable, and has a pathological fear of abandonment. This would be a

> good time for her to agree to substantive therapy. But she wont. My nada

> stopped taking Depakote cold turkey, and was in a psychotic break,

> hearing music and voices that were not there, 2 days before she died.

> She would not go to her Dr, or a hospital, or get back on the meds, and

> was not a danger to herself or others. So..I could do nothing.

>

> Hey Re, you can relax. You do not have to fix everything. Not that you

> could. You have permission. Its ok.

>

> Read a good book. Bounderies, or Surviving the Borderline Parent are 2

> that come to mind.

> Its ok. You are not a bad person. You are a good person put in a

> horrible situation by NO fault of your own. Its ok

>

> It IS NOT your fault.

>

> My brother moved out when he was 14 because the verbal altercations with

> he were so bad. He just wants to know when she passes now. But I feels

> so very guilty. How can I reconcile the pain of taking care of myself

> over her. Of no longer sacrificing my well being for hers. Everyone says

> I am doing the right thing. But I don't feel like it. I just wish

> someone could hear me and help me, or help her. That someone in the

> medical profession would take the time to give her an MMPI that test is

> not easily manipulated and usually easily indicates psychosis etc. But

> they just ask her if she is suicidal or is going kill someone.

>

> Sadly, again, even if you get her a good eval, and the diagnosis is what

> you suspect it is, so what? If she doesnt buy it and seek and want help,

> she wont change. Surely you have counseled enough addicts by now to

> realize you can never help the person who doesnt want it.

>

> She has threatened to kill me several times and I actually fear her on

> mnay levels. My husabnd is concerned for my safety. But I am rambling. I

> just feel so devistated by the whole ordeal. Is it wrong to walk away?

> No. It is not. Sorry for the typos and sp errors. I am quite dyslexic.

> LOL Thanks for just listening or allowing me to put this in writting.

>

>

>

> They make us feel like the crazy ones. Perhaps in a way we are. We

> suffer from situational psychosis. However, we can choose to walk away

> from the situation, and recover our sanity and life, and be normal and

> healthy and happy. I lost my mom about 5 weeks ago. I m grieving. I feel

> guilty at times. But I have to remind myself, it is not true guilt, but

> just remorse and sadness that she chose as she did. I didnt cause it. I

> couldnt fix it. I could only choose health for myself.

>

>

>

> Peace.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear " Bama " - It's time to let her go into the nursing home. It won't take long

for the staff there to see how she acts, and you'll have your validation.

Keeping her at home will destroy your marriage and your sanity, and it just

keeps her behavior a " family secret " that much longer. If you want the world to

recognize her illness, you have to let them see it. Nursing home placement is

probably the best bet. -

>

> My is BPD but not diagnosed. I know it to the very depths of my soul, but no

one will listen, no one will hear me. They all just think she is very

depressed, but they don't encounter her rages the constant walking on egg shells

that I do to try and not gain her wrath. I just feel so hopeless. I finally

had to have her arrested. She is 63 has congestive heart failure, diabetes, the

beginings of renal failure, absence seizures and is on oxygen. I feel so

guilty. But she verbally abuses me day in and out and at time resorts to

physical abuse. The things she says are so horrible no one could even imagine

them no less beleive someone says them to you. I know she is in pain, but I

can't take the rages. She has told me I murdered my father, that she was glad I

miscarried my baby, that I am a whore, a liar, an abuser, that I keep her around

to abuse her, that I don't love her. She has said so many hurtful things to my

husband. She even made fun of abuse he underwent as a child. (he's been having

night terrors ever since.) She has her psychologist on a pedastal and I think

he is a quack. She even mentioned how she wouldn't mind F#$@ing him. She

treats my spouse as if he is hers not mine. She demands his constant attention,

then speaks offensively and innapropriately sexually to him. She came out nakid

the other week and asked him to see if she shaved her pubic region correctly.

When I confronted her, she said he always talks about sex with her. She also

said she also said he had to make sure she did it right because she didn't want

to be emberrised as she started balling. She tries to tell him to divroce me.

And she is always saying how I am the problem, that everything is fine until I

am around. She is a shopoholic who can't keep money to save her life. She

spent 10000 dollars on sterling flatwear no kidding. But none of her bills were

paid. She is also a hoarder collector. While my dad was alive she and he lived

with 22 cats and no cat boxes in utter filth that actually made then news I have

been told. I have tried so desperately to make her happy, but no matter what I

suggest it is wrong or she gives someone else credit for it. I have begged the

doctors for help but they can't discuss her case with me because of privacy.

What about safety. She has overdosed on her meds and her insulin. She has

threatened to kill herself more times than anyone can imagine. And then she

lives in filth and squallor. I began taping her rages after she threatened to

lie to the cops and say I beat her and that my husband raped her. Everything is

everyone elses fault and she is superior to everyone. She exhibits multiple

instances of all the DSM-r BPD criteria. But no one will listen. She can't

physically take care of herself. And that concerns me. Because she has

hoodwinked everyone with the sweet poor me routine. We were trying to get her

mentally evaluated but she is so manipulative and plays sain so well no one

thinks she is more than depressed. They won;t look at the pictures, the video,

the police reports. I have almost sacrificed my marriage for her. But I had to

stop. Everyone is telling me I am doing the right thing, so why do I feel so

guilty. Why is my heart ripping out. Why does it consume my every waking

thought when my husband is dealing with a horrific tragedy of his own right now.

She is just so pitiful, so vulnerable, she is in the hospital awaiting placement

in some sort of assited facility. I feel so bad she is only 63 and the people

in those places are so much older. She keeps begging me to let her back in.

That she will change That I am leaving her to die alone. She doesn't want to

be alone. I am abandoning her. Her mother abused her and my father was

psychotic and an alcoholic and beat the crap out of her. She has never leived

alone in 63 years. She got married at 18 and dad died 3 years ago. She says

she was a good wife for staying with him in sickness. That it was ok that he

beat her because he was sick. I just want her to be happy and healthy. She is

dieing slowly maybe in the next 3 to 5 years. But I can't keep feeling like I

am progressing her illness by abandoning her. But it is she or my marriage. I

love her so much and recall a time when the rages weren't daily. When they

would pop up sporadically. When she didn't need constant reassurance that we

loved and cared about her 20 or more times a day. I just feel so darn alone.

Like I have been let down by the medical community. I have almost a masters in

rehab counseling I know the DSM criteria I'm not just making a random guess. I

know in my heart she is BPD. But I can't get through to anyone. I feel guilty

for enjoying the peace we have had since she went to jail and then too the

hospital. I even get frightened at night because it is so quiet without her

hear. No constant sound making or narrations. I feel so bad turning away from

her because I know how vulnerable she feels. On the other hand she is constantly

attacking me. So what do I do. Is putting her in a home wrong? I have always

been the adult even when I was a child. I took care of them more than they me.

I just want to be able to relax and not have to try and fix everything. My

brother moved out when he was 14 because the verbal altercations with he were so

bad. He just wants to know when she passes now. But I feels so very guilty.

How can I reconcile the pain of taking care of myself over her. Of no longer

sacrificing my well being for hers. Everyone says I am doing the right thing.

But I don't feel like it. I just wish someone could hear me and help me, or help

her. That someone in the medical profession would take the time to give her an

MMPI that test is not easily manipulated and usually easily indicates psychosis

etc. But they just ask her if she is suicidal or is going kill someone. She

has threatened to kill me several times and I actually fear her on mnay levels.

My husabnd is concerned for my safety. But I am rambling. I just feel so

devistated by the whole ordeal. Is it wrong to walk away? Sorry for the typos

and sp errors. I am quite dyslexic. LOL Thanks for just listening or allowing

me to put this in writting.

>

[Guest guest]

Hey

Yes, there is a lot of peace in that prayer, once you internalize it. Its still

a work in progress.

I think we all just want to be acknowledged. We want a real mommy. We want her

to see us, not a made up version of us, we want her to love and care for us, we

want to get her to hear us when we say your pants are on fire, but we can't.

Thanks for your words of condolence. I do miss her. I m grieving her death, and

fighting guilt that I didnt do all she wanted. But the reality is I lost her

long ago.

It is the great sadness of our lives. Still, our story is who we are. Embrace

it, and grow.

Those little bits of nada that we find clinging to ourselves, we call fleas. We

all have them. If you were raised by a pianist, you would likely be musical. If

you were raised traveller, you may like to go and see the sights. You were

raised by a mentally ill parent, or 2. Some of your learned responces are based

upon that. But you CAN learn new responces and patterns. Dont despair. Take

courage, and look at it with humor. When you see a " flea " emerge, give it a

name like Henry, then you can start telling Henry that now that you know who he

is, he s going to have to look for another place to stay.

Laughter is good. We have had our share of tears, havent we? As far as forgiving

yourself, well, gosh we all screw up dont we? If you did something wrong,

apoligize and learn from it and move on. Don t carry it forever. You can even

take advantage of your background, and go confess it and receive absolution. I m

not a Catholic, but I think there is something healing in that process.

Some things, you just can t change. Accept them.

Some things you can, and should. Be brave. Make the change.

Learn the wisdom not to waste your time changing the former, or waste your life

by NOT changing the latter.

( To state it another way. )

Be well

Doug

> >

> >

> > Dear Rehab

> >

> > An appropriate name for any KO. [] Welcome, your novel makes me

> > pretty convinced you are in the right place! I m going to go thru your

> > post and interject some thoughts of my own, and I certainly agree with

> > the thoughts annie has already shared with you.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

,

You are dealing with a lot. I hope that you have some support for yourself thru

counseling. This is all really big stuff that no one can or should do alone. You

deserve all the support you can surround yourself with. A objective person can

be a wonderful help.

I trust you know deep down that your dad really did kill himself, you did not

kill him. From what you describe, I don't think this his death was at all

unusual for a lifelong alcoholic. He obviously gave you cause to think as you

did (that he was drinking again) becs of the years of wrong behavior he showed

you before that fateful night. Your mom is just using that as a club to beat

you. She thinks it will have the most impact. And it has. But it's still a lie.

You did not kill him. He killed himself over many, many years.

It sounds to me like you and your husband are in fact very strong and capable

people and the many things you've fought against bear that out. It sounds like

you handled the recent talk with your mom very, very well. You were not devoid

of compassion in any way. You truly do want her highest good, and you want to

not receive her abuse any longer either. Those are both wise and healthy things

for which you do not need to apologize.

If your mom wants to go to a homeless shelter, well she is a grown up and that

is her choice. She may continue to push those boundaries all in a effort to

prove that she is the victim and you are her abuser. Those things are not true

either, but she must make them so at least i her own mind, sadly. What else can

you say except, " Well Mom, if that's your decision I'll respect it " ? She keeps

trying to throw the ball into your half of the court, but you can pass it back.

It really is ultimately up to her.

I know you are exhausted. I hope you can get a chance for a good night of sleep.

Take a benadryl and put on your pjs and go down for the count - or at least a

good 12 hours. You deserve it and you need it. The toll on your body and mind

right now is incalculable. Know there are many here pulling for you.

Take good care,