Re: Fox News on Moderation

[Guest guest]

it did happen. i think the people he killed were indians.

j.m.young@... wrote:

> " Law and Order " had an episode a few years back about a young man who

> broke into a house he and his parents used to live in and murdered

> the residents there. He was drunk but also attending AA and the DA

> wanted to obtain information this guy may have confessed to his

> sponsor or the group or whatever and the defense lawyer objected as

> AA is anonymous and members need to feel confident that what they say

> will not be repeated, blah blah blah. The DA argued that AA was not

> protected by confidentiality as are physicians and clergy and I think

> the judge agreed with the DA and he was able to subpoena or get

> testimony from members concerning what the guy said about that night.

>

> Many of Law and Order's stories are based on true events so perhaps

> something like this happened for real.

>

> jan

>

>

> > > Article follows, but visit the website

> > > http://www.foxnews.com/health/071100/control.sml

> > >

> > > There is a spot to click at the bottom to send an email to the

> > author.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> *********************************************************************

> > >

> > > Can Problem Drinkers Drink Less?

> > > Tuesday, July 11, 2000 By Adam Pasick

> > > NEW YORK — Having a problem with alcohol is something

> different

> > > from

> > > being an alcoholic.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > That's the premise of a number of non-abstinence-based treatment

> > > programs that cater to people who are concerned about their

> > drinking,

> > > but aren't quite ready to give up booze altogether.

> > >

> > > These programs are gaining popularity in some circles. New York

> > > City's ers clinic — which has boasted celebrity clients

> like

> > > Darryl Strawberry and Truman Capote — recently signed on with

> one

> > > of

> > > the best-known regimens, known as Moderation Management. MM, as

> it's

> > > known, allows patients a set number of drinks after they complete

> a

> > > 30-day period without drinking.

> > >

> > > [ers Director Dr. DeLuca resigned under pressure Monday

> > for

> > > his endorsement of MM. Click here to read more.]

> > >

> > > When was sent to a drug rehab clinic in high school, they

> > > told her she had a serious problem. " They told me I was a drug

> > addict

> > > because I liked to party on the weekends — I couldn't buy

> that, "

> > > she

> > > said. " I never felt like I had a need to go there; I was never a

> > > gutter drunk. "

> > >

> > > struggled with alcohol well into her 20s, drinking about

> a

> > > six-pack of beer five times a week. But when she wanted to change,

> > > she decided she didn't need to give up booze altogether. She

> joined

> > > Moderation Management, where she now answers the group's telephone

> > > hotline.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > 'They told me I was a drug addict because I liked to party on

> the

> > > weekends; I couldn't buy that' —

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > " I said, 'Oh look! A support group for people who drink but aren't

> > > alcoholics — that sounds like me,' " she recalled. Now a

> stand-up

> > > comic and actor living in New Jersey, strictly regulates

> > her

> > > alcohol intake. She goes five days without a drink every week,

> then

> > > carefully sips one or two.

> > >

> > > She emphasizes that as much as the program has helped her, MM is

> not

> > > for everybody: " There are people who really shouldn't drink, and

> > they

> > > shouldn't come to MM just so they have an excuse to drink. "

> > >

> > > MM has been assailed by critics, especially proponents of 12-step

> > > groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, which preach total abstinence

> from

> > > intoxicating substances. Many experts say non-abstinence treatment

> > is

> > > a horrible idea.

> > >

> > > " People have been pushing this for 40 years, but it just doesn't

> > > work, " said professor Vaillant of Harvard Medical School.

> > >

> > > An official at the New York City AA office, speaking on condition

> of

> > > anonymity, said the two programs are not competitors: If people

> can

> > > control their drinking, then they're not ready for AA's brand of

> > last-

> > > resort treatment. " If somebody's able to drink moderately, they

> > > wouldn't benefit from our program, " he said.

> > >

> > > " The only reason we stop is that we can't drink safely, " the

> > official

> > > said, unwilling to endorse or denounce MM. " If people can drink,

> our

> > > hats are off to them, but we can't do that. "

> > >

> > > MM took a public hit when its founder, Audrey Kishline, resigned

> as

> > > spokesperson and then allegedly killed a man and his daughter

> while

> > > driving drunk in March. Through her attorney, she blasted her

> former

> > > program for being " nothing but alcoholics covering up their

> problem "

> > > in published reports.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > 'People have been pushing this for 40 years, but it just doesn't

> > > work' — Vaillant

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It's not the first time the group has been associated with

> tragedy.

> > > In 1999, a man confessed to an MM e-mail list that he killed his

> > > daughter; he subsequently pleaded not guilty to murder charges.

> > >

> > > How many people are affected? The ratio of problem drinkers to

> > > alcoholics depends on the study. Twenty percent of American adults

> > > are problem drinkers, and 5 percent are alcohol dependent,

> according

> > > to the University of Connecticut's Alcohol Research Center. The

> > > National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, meanwhile,

> says

> > 3

> > > percent are alcohol abusers, 1.7 percent alcohol dependents, and

> 2.7

> > > who exhibit characteristics of both.

> > >

> > > Non-abstinence treatment programs and their critics alike agree

> > > determining exactly who is an alcoholic and who is merely a

> problem

> > > drinker is the tricky part. Those who argue moderation programs

> are

> > > dangerous say alcoholics are unable to objectively decide, and

> even

> > > proponents of the programs admit it is difficult.

> > >

> > >

> > > Head-to-head comparisons of abstinence and non-abstinence

> treatment

> > > programs are difficult to come by, especially because the 12-step

> > > programs like AA that predominate are decentralized and anonymous.

> > >

> > > AA was one of the first alcohol treatment programs that did not

> > treat

> > > alcoholism like a moral failing, and that's given it a big head

> > > start, said Klykylo, coordinator of DrinkWise, a

> > moderation

> > > counseling program that's part of the University of Michigan

> health

> > > system.

> > >

> > > DrinkWise counsels people on how to minimize the amount of alcohol

> > > they imbibe. " People like hearing the pros and cons of drinking, "

> > she

> > > said. " We're not saying not to drink, but you have to be honest

> and

> > > look and the risks and benefits. "

> > >

> > > Pacing and spacing — drinking no more than one drink an hour,

> for

> > > example, and alternating between alcoholic and non-alcoholic

> drinks

> > > —

> > > are two strategies DrinkWise touts. The program also counsels

> people

> > > to avoid gulping their drinks, taking shots of hard liquor and

> > > partaking in drinking games.

> > >

> > > Klykylo said DrinkWise isn't for people who drink first thing in

> the

> > > morning, who feel a strong compulsion to drink, or who knock back

> > > more than 10 drinks a session, four times a week.

> > >

> > > Figuring out what works is very subjective, and those who are

> ready

> > > to quit must consider what for them will make a lasting treatment.

> > >

> > > Vaillant thinks of it like this: " If you take the spare off your

> > car,

> > > you do well for a while, but disaster eventually strikes. "

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

At 04:48 AM 7/14/00 -0000, stuart323@... wrote:

>Article follows, but visit the website

>http://www.foxnews.com/health/071100/control.sml

>An official at the New York City AA office, speaking on condition of

>anonymity, said the two programs are not competitors: If people can

>control their drinking, then they're not ready for AA's brand of last-

>resort treatment. " If somebody's able to drink moderately, they

>wouldn't benefit from our program, " he said.

>

> " The only reason we stop is that we can't drink safely, " the official

>said, unwilling to endorse or denounce MM. " If people can drink, our

>hats are off to them, but we can't do that. "

The words " If people can drink, out hats are off to them " is an

almost word-for-word quote of the big book - can AA'ers not say anything

using their own words? I suppose that would make them 'unique'.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I note they give a disease modeller, Vaillant, the last word as ever.

Also, they report the Froistad affair as if he murdered whil in MM; in

fact he confessed to committing the murder years before. He may have

entered a not guilty plea, but the only reason he was prosecuted was

because he made a direct confession to the Police - an off oath,

easily fakeable email hardly counts as something to gain a conviction;

and in the circumstances (the child died in a fire that investigators

had concluded was accidental) it is possible his original drunken

confession was just the reaction of a traumatized parent who had

failed to save his daughter's life. Also, on at least one occassion

something simlar happended in AA; although having no legal bais, many

ppl seem to extend confidentiality priveleges to support groups.

Btw, apparently sociologist Ron Roizen has determined that archetypal

disease modeller Jellinek faked his doctorship.

P.

> Article follows, but visit the website

> http://www.foxnews.com/health/071100/control.sml

>

> There is a spot to click at the bottom to send an email to the

author.

>

>

>

*********************************************************************

>

> Can Problem Drinkers Drink Less?

> Tuesday, July 11, 2000 By Adam Pasick

> NEW YORK — Having a problem with alcohol is something different

> from

> being an alcoholic.

>

>

>

>

>

> That's the premise of a number of non-abstinence-based treatment

> programs that cater to people who are concerned about their

drinking,

> but aren't quite ready to give up booze altogether.

>

> These programs are gaining popularity in some circles. New York

> City's ers clinic — which has boasted celebrity clients like

> Darryl Strawberry and Truman Capote — recently signed on with one

> of

> the best-known regimens, known as Moderation Management. MM, as it's

> known, allows patients a set number of drinks after they complete a

> 30-day period without drinking.

>

> [ers Director Dr. DeLuca resigned under pressure Monday

for

> his endorsement of MM. Click here to read more.]

>

> When was sent to a drug rehab clinic in high school, they

> told her she had a serious problem. " They told me I was a drug

addict

> because I liked to party on the weekends — I couldn't buy that, "

> she

> said. " I never felt like I had a need to go there; I was never a

> gutter drunk. "

>

> struggled with alcohol well into her 20s, drinking about a

> six-pack of beer five times a week. But when she wanted to change,

> she decided she didn't need to give up booze altogether. She joined

> Moderation Management, where she now answers the group's telephone

> hotline.

>

>

>

> 'They told me I was a drug addict because I liked to party on the

> weekends; I couldn't buy that' —

>

>

>

> " I said, 'Oh look! A support group for people who drink but aren't

> alcoholics — that sounds like me,' " she recalled. Now a stand-up

> comic and actor living in New Jersey, strictly regulates

her

> alcohol intake. She goes five days without a drink every week, then

> carefully sips one or two.

>

> She emphasizes that as much as the program has helped her, MM is not

> for everybody: " There are people who really shouldn't drink, and

they

> shouldn't come to MM just so they have an excuse to drink. "

>

> MM has been assailed by critics, especially proponents of 12-step

> groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, which preach total abstinence from

> intoxicating substances. Many experts say non-abstinence treatment

is

> a horrible idea.

>

> " People have been pushing this for 40 years, but it just doesn't

> work, " said professor Vaillant of Harvard Medical School.

>

> An official at the New York City AA office, speaking on condition of

> anonymity, said the two programs are not competitors: If people can

> control their drinking, then they're not ready for AA's brand of

last-

> resort treatment. " If somebody's able to drink moderately, they

> wouldn't benefit from our program, " he said.

>

> " The only reason we stop is that we can't drink safely, " the

official

> said, unwilling to endorse or denounce MM. " If people can drink, our

> hats are off to them, but we can't do that. "

>

> MM took a public hit when its founder, Audrey Kishline, resigned as

> spokesperson and then allegedly killed a man and his daughter while

> driving drunk in March. Through her attorney, she blasted her former

> program for being " nothing but alcoholics covering up their problem "

> in published reports.

>

>

>

> 'People have been pushing this for 40 years, but it just doesn't

> work' — Vaillant

>

>

>

> It's not the first time the group has been associated with tragedy.

> In 1999, a man confessed to an MM e-mail list that he killed his

> daughter; he subsequently pleaded not guilty to murder charges.

>

> How many people are affected? The ratio of problem drinkers to

> alcoholics depends on the study. Twenty percent of American adults

> are problem drinkers, and 5 percent are alcohol dependent, according

> to the University of Connecticut's Alcohol Research Center. The

> National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, meanwhile, says

3

> percent are alcohol abusers, 1.7 percent alcohol dependents, and 2.7

> who exhibit characteristics of both.

>

> Non-abstinence treatment programs and their critics alike agree

> determining exactly who is an alcoholic and who is merely a problem

> drinker is the tricky part. Those who argue moderation programs are

> dangerous say alcoholics are unable to objectively decide, and even

> proponents of the programs admit it is difficult.

>

>

> Head-to-head comparisons of abstinence and non-abstinence treatment

> programs are difficult to come by, especially because the 12-step

> programs like AA that predominate are decentralized and anonymous.

>

> AA was one of the first alcohol treatment programs that did not

treat

> alcoholism like a moral failing, and that's given it a big head

> start, said Klykylo, coordinator of DrinkWise, a

moderation

> counseling program that's part of the University of Michigan health

> system.

>

> DrinkWise counsels people on how to minimize the amount of alcohol

> they imbibe. " People like hearing the pros and cons of drinking, "

she

> said. " We're not saying not to drink, but you have to be honest and

> look and the risks and benefits. "

>

> Pacing and spacing — drinking no more than one drink an hour, for

> example, and alternating between alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks

> —

> are two strategies DrinkWise touts. The program also counsels people

> to avoid gulping their drinks, taking shots of hard liquor and

> partaking in drinking games.

>

> Klykylo said DrinkWise isn't for people who drink first thing in the

> morning, who feel a strong compulsion to drink, or who knock back

> more than 10 drinks a session, four times a week.

>

> Figuring out what works is very subjective, and those who are ready

> to quit must consider what for them will make a lasting treatment.

>

> Vaillant thinks of it like this: " If you take the spare off your

car,

> you do well for a while, but disaster eventually strikes. "

[Guest guest]

" Law and Order " had an episode a few years back about a young man who

broke into a house he and his parents used to live in and murdered

the residents there. He was drunk but also attending AA and the DA

wanted to obtain information this guy may have confessed to his

sponsor or the group or whatever and the defense lawyer objected as

AA is anonymous and members need to feel confident that what they say

will not be repeated, blah blah blah. The DA argued that AA was not

protected by confidentiality as are physicians and clergy and I think

the judge agreed with the DA and he was able to subpoena or get

testimony from members concerning what the guy said about that night.

Many of Law and Order's stories are based on true events so perhaps

something like this happened for real.

jan

> > Article follows, but visit the website

> > http://www.foxnews.com/health/071100/control.sml

> >

> > There is a spot to click at the bottom to send an email to the

> author.

> >

> >

> >

>

*********************************************************************

> >

> > Can Problem Drinkers Drink Less?

> > Tuesday, July 11, 2000 By Adam Pasick

> > NEW YORK — Having a problem with alcohol is something

different

> > from

> > being an alcoholic.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > That's the premise of a number of non-abstinence-based treatment

> > programs that cater to people who are concerned about their

> drinking,

> > but aren't quite ready to give up booze altogether.

> >

> > These programs are gaining popularity in some circles. New York

> > City's ers clinic — which has boasted celebrity clients

like

> > Darryl Strawberry and Truman Capote — recently signed on with

one

> > of

> > the best-known regimens, known as Moderation Management. MM, as

it's

> > known, allows patients a set number of drinks after they complete

a

> > 30-day period without drinking.

> >

> > [ers Director Dr. DeLuca resigned under pressure Monday

> for

> > his endorsement of MM. Click here to read more.]

> >

> > When was sent to a drug rehab clinic in high school, they

> > told her she had a serious problem. " They told me I was a drug

> addict

> > because I liked to party on the weekends — I couldn't buy

that, "

> > she

> > said. " I never felt like I had a need to go there; I was never a

> > gutter drunk. "

> >

> > struggled with alcohol well into her 20s, drinking about

a

> > six-pack of beer five times a week. But when she wanted to change,

> > she decided she didn't need to give up booze altogether. She

joined

> > Moderation Management, where she now answers the group's telephone

> > hotline.

> >

> >

> >

> > 'They told me I was a drug addict because I liked to party on

the

> > weekends; I couldn't buy that' —

> >

> >

> >

> > " I said, 'Oh look! A support group for people who drink but aren't

> > alcoholics — that sounds like me,' " she recalled. Now a

stand-up

> > comic and actor living in New Jersey, strictly regulates

> her

> > alcohol intake. She goes five days without a drink every week,

then

> > carefully sips one or two.

> >

> > She emphasizes that as much as the program has helped her, MM is

not

> > for everybody: " There are people who really shouldn't drink, and

> they

> > shouldn't come to MM just so they have an excuse to drink. "

> >

> > MM has been assailed by critics, especially proponents of 12-step

> > groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, which preach total abstinence

from

> > intoxicating substances. Many experts say non-abstinence treatment

> is

> > a horrible idea.

> >

> > " People have been pushing this for 40 years, but it just doesn't

> > work, " said professor Vaillant of Harvard Medical School.

> >

> > An official at the New York City AA office, speaking on condition

of

> > anonymity, said the two programs are not competitors: If people

can

> > control their drinking, then they're not ready for AA's brand of

> last-

> > resort treatment. " If somebody's able to drink moderately, they

> > wouldn't benefit from our program, " he said.

> >

> > " The only reason we stop is that we can't drink safely, " the

> official

> > said, unwilling to endorse or denounce MM. " If people can drink,

our

> > hats are off to them, but we can't do that. "

> >

> > MM took a public hit when its founder, Audrey Kishline, resigned

as

> > spokesperson and then allegedly killed a man and his daughter

while

> > driving drunk in March. Through her attorney, she blasted her

former

> > program for being " nothing but alcoholics covering up their

problem "

> > in published reports.

> >

> >

> >

> > 'People have been pushing this for 40 years, but it just doesn't

> > work' — Vaillant

> >

> >

> >

> > It's not the first time the group has been associated with

tragedy.

> > In 1999, a man confessed to an MM e-mail list that he killed his

> > daughter; he subsequently pleaded not guilty to murder charges.

> >

> > How many people are affected? The ratio of problem drinkers to

> > alcoholics depends on the study. Twenty percent of American adults

> > are problem drinkers, and 5 percent are alcohol dependent,

according

> > to the University of Connecticut's Alcohol Research Center. The

> > National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, meanwhile,

says

> 3

> > percent are alcohol abusers, 1.7 percent alcohol dependents, and

2.7

> > who exhibit characteristics of both.

> >

> > Non-abstinence treatment programs and their critics alike agree

> > determining exactly who is an alcoholic and who is merely a

problem

> > drinker is the tricky part. Those who argue moderation programs

are

> > dangerous say alcoholics are unable to objectively decide, and

even

> > proponents of the programs admit it is difficult.

> >

> >

> > Head-to-head comparisons of abstinence and non-abstinence

treatment

> > programs are difficult to come by, especially because the 12-step

> > programs like AA that predominate are decentralized and anonymous.

> >

> > AA was one of the first alcohol treatment programs that did not

> treat

> > alcoholism like a moral failing, and that's given it a big head

> > start, said Klykylo, coordinator of DrinkWise, a

> moderation

> > counseling program that's part of the University of Michigan

health

> > system.

> >

> > DrinkWise counsels people on how to minimize the amount of alcohol

> > they imbibe. " People like hearing the pros and cons of drinking, "

> she

> > said. " We're not saying not to drink, but you have to be honest

and

> > look and the risks and benefits. "

> >

> > Pacing and spacing — drinking no more than one drink an hour,

for

> > example, and alternating between alcoholic and non-alcoholic

drinks

> > —

> > are two strategies DrinkWise touts. The program also counsels

people

> > to avoid gulping their drinks, taking shots of hard liquor and

> > partaking in drinking games.

> >

> > Klykylo said DrinkWise isn't for people who drink first thing in

the

> > morning, who feel a strong compulsion to drink, or who knock back

> > more than 10 drinks a session, four times a week.

> >

> > Figuring out what works is very subjective, and those who are

ready

> > to quit must consider what for them will make a lasting treatment.

> >

> > Vaillant thinks of it like this: " If you take the spare off your

> car,

> > you do well for a while, but disaster eventually strikes. "

[Guest guest]

I'm pretty sure this really did happen. I've heard about it from

various sources.

> " Law and Order " had an episode a few years back about a young man

who

> broke into a house he and his parents used to live in and murdered

> the residents there. He was drunk but also attending AA and the DA

> wanted to obtain information this guy may have confessed to his

> sponsor or the group or whatever and the defense lawyer objected as

> AA is anonymous and members need to feel confident that what they

say

> will not be repeated, blah blah blah. The DA argued that AA was not

> protected by confidentiality as are physicians and clergy and I

think

> the judge agreed with the DA and he was able to subpoena or get

> testimony from members concerning what the guy said about that

night.

>

> Many of Law and Order's stories are based on true events so perhaps

> something like this happened for real.

>

> jan

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have been hearing about that case and trying to research it for

ages, but I can never get enough information about it to get the

facts. Does anyone have names, places, etc?

> > " Law and Order " had an episode a few years back about a young man

> who

> > broke into a house he and his parents used to live in and murdered

> > the residents there. He was drunk but also attending AA and the

DA

> > wanted to obtain information this guy may have confessed to his

> > sponsor or the group or whatever and the defense lawyer objected

as

> > AA is anonymous and members need to feel confident that what they

> say

> > will not be repeated, blah blah blah. The DA argued that AA was

not

> > protected by confidentiality as are physicians and clergy and I

> think

> > the judge agreed with the DA and he was able to subpoena or get

> > testimony from members concerning what the guy said about that

> night.

> >

> > Many of Law and Order's stories are based on true events so

perhaps

> > something like this happened for real.

> >

> > jan

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think your best bet would be a Lexis/Nexis search, if you have

access to that or know someone who does. Also, I seem to recall that

the guy confessed in an AA meeting in Colorado, but that the murders

took place in NY. But that could be completely wrong.

> > > " Law and Order " had an episode a few years back about a young

man

> > who

> > > broke into a house he and his parents used to live in and

murdered

> > > the residents there. He was drunk but also attending AA and

the

> DA

> > > wanted to obtain information this guy may have confessed to his

> > > sponsor or the group or whatever and the defense lawyer

objected

> as

> > > AA is anonymous and members need to feel confident that what

they

> > say

> > > will not be repeated, blah blah blah. The DA argued that AA

was

> not

> > > protected by confidentiality as are physicians and clergy and I

> > think

> > > the judge agreed with the DA and he was able to subpoena or get

> > > testimony from members concerning what the guy said about that

> > night.

> > >

> > > Many of Law and Order's stories are based on true events so

> perhaps

> > > something like this happened for real.

> > >

> > > jan

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

> I think your best bet would be a Lexis/Nexis search, if you have

> access to that or know someone who does. Also, I seem to recall

that

> the guy confessed in an AA meeting in Colorado, but that the

murders

> took place in NY. But that could be completely wrong.

Thanks for the Lexis/Nexis tip. That will certainly come in handy. As

of last night, I've found that case and several other interesting

cases. But I want more! Lexis/Nexis ho!

But first, am going downtown with my friend and watch " The Patriot. "

Best,