Re: feeling sorry for myself

[Guest guest]

Hi Judit and list.

I've joined Addict-L, and the list is really high volume. So I guess I'll have

to neglect 12sf for a while.

It's really interesting for me at the moment. But Judith's title caught my eye.

I can only say that in my experience the separation of those kinds of

relationships hurts even if they are necessary.

When there is shit on both sides, it can be helpful to have one neutral to help

during the process, it that can be agreed on. Must be a gold mine for lawyers,

though.

I can understand that there is no place for the feelings you 'ought to' have,

don't bother about that, you might get more feelings than you ever thought

possible.

Honestly, I think people in your situation often is vulnerable, alcohol or not.

I don't know about your relation, but destruction and self contempt often seems

to be the motto; when looked at from the outside.

Take care Judith.

My best thoughts for you and your husband.

Bjørn

Judith Stillwater wrote:

> so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about his

> death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a separation. can

> you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but really no

> more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can handle.

> when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our marriage

> there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit is normal.

> my shit as much as his.

>

> so I'm sorry, I really am, about the death of one of ours. I recognize his

> name but did not know him well. and we are such a small band, and I do

> nothing of substance to contribute to this movement such as it is. so these

> losses, kevin and the guy who died a few weeks ago,

> I-can't-remember-his-last-name, the guy who couldn't get medicinal

> marijuana, these are big and real losses.

>

> but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able to turn

> off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because there is

> a bigger loss at hand. why do i even write this stuff? never mind that, why

> send it once it's written?

>

> send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a competition

> to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of people trying

> to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be helpful to

> someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is helpful for me to

> spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

>

> judith

>

> _______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to

be able to turn

> off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses,

because there is

> a bigger loss at hand.

good has nothing to do wiht it judith, only a robot can turn of their

own pain.

>

> send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a

competition

> to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of

people trying

> to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be

helpful to

> someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is

helpful for me to

> spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

thats about the best thing we can do for eachother as human

beings

>

__________________________________________________

_____

> Say Bye to Slow Internet!

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[Guest guest]

Judith,

I am so sorry to hear about your separation. It seems to me that we all

work so hard to find just a little corner of comfort in our lives, and one

of the most hurtful things in the world is finding that a thing that we once

saw as that comforting place is no longer a possibility. You have been so

supportive of all of us here, and I just wish I could reach out and give you

a hug. My gut tells me that you are a nice lady who deserves the best, so

please feel free to hurt out-loud if this is best for you (and I'm thinking

it is).

llawrence@...

feeling sorry for myself

> so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about his

> death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a separation.

can

> you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but really

no

> more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can

handle.

> when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our marriage

> there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit is

normal.

> my shit as much as his.

>

> so I'm sorry, I really am, about the death of one of ours. I recognize his

> name but did not know him well. and we are such a small band, and I do

> nothing of substance to contribute to this movement such as it is. so

these

> losses, kevin and the guy who died a few weeks ago,

> I-can't-remember-his-last-name, the guy who couldn't get medicinal

> marijuana, these are big and real losses.

>

> but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able to turn

> off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because there

is

> a bigger loss at hand. why do i even write this stuff? never mind that,

why

> send it once it's written?

>

> send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a competition

> to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of people trying

> to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be helpful

to

> someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is helpful for me

to

> spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

>

> judith

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Say Bye to Slow Internet!

> http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!

> 1. Fill in the brief application

> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds

> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR

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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Judith

Your posts are flags that fly somewhere on high

I see your light shine clear across the dark

In iron honesty you make your mark

As sparks of truth make fire across the sky.

For " kybernetes " means a navigator

You steer me through a rather narrow gate, you're

Above, across, and through the Atlantic Ocean --

You mmay be 12step free's most powerful potion.

Ahem -- just a note from yr dear ole British fellow sufferer, partner in

crime, admirer, man of bewilderment, and similar,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: feeling sorry for myself

>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT)

>

>so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about his

>death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a separation. can

>you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but really

>no

>more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can handle.

>when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our marriage

>there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit is

>normal.

>my shit as much as his.

>

>so I'm sorry, I really am, about the death of one of ours. I recognize his

>name but did not know him well. and we are such a small band, and I do

>nothing of substance to contribute to this movement such as it is. so these

>losses, kevin and the guy who died a few weeks ago,

>I-can't-remember-his-last-name, the guy who couldn't get medicinal

>marijuana, these are big and real losses.

>

>but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able to turn

>off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because there is

>a bigger loss at hand. why do i even write this stuff? never mind that, why

>send it once it's written?

>

>send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a competition

>to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of people trying

>to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be helpful

>to

>someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is helpful for me

>to

>spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

>

>judith

>

>

>

>

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Say Bye to Slow Internet!

>http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

>

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hey Judith,

Please feel free to write to me personally about what you

are going through. Sounds like you may need a friend at

this time. Guess what? Me, too.

I am the one thinking about ending my 12 year relationship.

Granted I was quite different when I was an abuser, but

so was he. Maybe it's time.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: feeling sorry for myself

>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT)

>

>so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about his

>death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a separation. can

>you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but really

>no

>more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can handle.

>when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our marriage

>there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit is

>normal.

>my shit as much as his.

>

>so I'm sorry, I really am, about the death of one of ours. I recognize his

>name but did not know him well. and we are such a small band, and I do

>nothing of substance to contribute to this movement such as it is. so these

>losses, kevin and the guy who died a few weeks ago,

>I-can't-remember-his-last-name, the guy who couldn't get medicinal

>marijuana, these are big and real losses.

>

>but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able to turn

>off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because there is

>a bigger loss at hand. why do i even write this stuff? never mind that, why

>send it once it's written?

>

>send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a competition

>to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of people trying

>to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be helpful

>to

>someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is helpful for me

>to

>spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

>

>judith

>

>

>

>

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Say Bye to Slow Internet!

>http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Judith, so sorry about what's going on with you and your hubby. How

long have you 2 been married?

This is heavy duty stuff you are going through so I wouldn't beat

myself up too much because you don't 'feel' something for other

recent tragedies. I don't think we are meant or able to grieve for

all of humanity. We know you care because we know what a caring

person you are. But tend to your own situation - the others are

getting cared for and grieved by those close by. Things will go on.

love, jan

> so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about

his

> death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a

separation. can

> you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but

really no

> more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can

handle.

> when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our

marriage

> there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit

is normal.

> my shit as much as his.

>

> so I'm sorry, I really am, about the death of one of ours. I

recognize his

> name but did not know him well. and we are such a small band, and I

do

> nothing of substance to contribute to this movement such as it is.

so these

> losses, kevin and the guy who died a few weeks ago,

> I-can't-remember-his-last-name, the guy who couldn't get medicinal

> marijuana, these are big and real losses.

>

> but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able

to turn

> off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because

there is

> a bigger loss at hand. why do i even write this stuff? never mind

that, why

> send it once it's written?

>

> send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a

competition

> to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of people

trying

> to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be

helpful to

> someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is helpful

for me to

> spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

>

> judith

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Say Bye to Slow Internet!

> http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

[Guest guest]

<but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able to

turn off my own <pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because

there is a bigger loss at hand.

<

-----------------

Judith, your pain is your own, and you have every right to feel it.

And there is never a need to " turn off " one kind of grief in order to

feel another type. " Good " does not apply.

<

<why do i even write this stuff? never mind

that, why send it once it's written?

<

Writing is your style of expression, and you do it most eloquently.

Please do continue to send; I think most of us are moved by your " posts

of consciousness. "

-------------------

<send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a

competition to see whose pain <hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch

of people trying to figure stuff out. and ya never really <know what is

going to be helpful to

someone else in figuring out their own <problems. and it is helpful for

me to

spill my guts here, and get whatever support i <can in return.

<

I'm very sorry for your pain regarding the separation. I'm sure

you must be feeling overwhelmed. Please share whatever you're

comfortable with here (or off-list), but of course there are private

levels and boundaries as well. Are you getting any counseling to help

you through?

~Rita

[Guest guest]

Well said Rita. Ditto here.

Re: feeling sorry for myself

<but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able to

turn off my own <pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because

there is a bigger loss at hand.

<

-----------------

Judith, your pain is your own, and you have every right to feel it.

And there is never a need to " turn off " one kind of grief in order to

feel another type. " Good " does not apply.

<

<why do i even write this stuff? never mind

that, why send it once it's written?

<

Writing is your style of expression, and you do it most eloquently.

Please do continue to send; I think most of us are moved by your " posts

of consciousness. "

[Guest guest]

(email only)

Thank you . I am hoping that the separation will not inevitably lead to

divorce; but I think I've been so afraid of losing my husband, my family,

that I have allowed some situations to exist that are unhealthy for both of

us. We'll see where I end up. In the meantime, all the supportive responses

I have gotten, each post _is_ like a hug. I know there are real people

behind the computer screen; I have your article, Not In My Back Yard,

printed out and sitting on my desk, and that makes you even more real. So

thank you for responding. I appreciate it a lot.

Judith

> Judith,

> I am so sorry to hear about your separation. It seems to me that we all

work so hard to find just a little corner of comfort in our lives, and one

of the most hurtful things in the world is finding that a thing that we once

saw as that comforting place is no longer a possibility. You have been so

supportive of all of us here, and I just wish I could reach out and give you

a hug. My gut tells me that you are a nice lady who deserves the best, so

please feel free to hurt out-loud if this is best for you (and I'm thinking

it is).

>

_______________________________________________________

Say Bye to Slow Internet!

http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

[Guest guest]

Judith,

I can so understand your pain. I have a separation plan in effect

myself, although my fiance is not aware of it. It is the only thing

that gives me hope. I sincerely hope you do the same to keep your

sanity through whatever may come.

I have recently purchased stocks, started a separate savings account,

began investigating moving out of state and getting a job, quit

buying

anything but necessary things and started to concentrate on me

instead

of the SO. I have tried so many different approaches to the problem,

but how can you talk to someone who firmly believes that all your

problems as a couple are solely YOUR fault?

I am planning to give this relationship a reasonable amount of time:

6-8 months. Then, if at that time, the relationship is still not

salvageable, I will continue my life elsewhere. I have plans to

start

exercising diligently, seek some kind of inner peace starting

with TM and some other things.

Life is too short. was very young and it makes me sad too.

Your grief over your relationship is possibly contributing to your

reaction to the announcement, but losses ARE losses and it make

perfect sense to me.

We are living and should take full advantage of that. It's what I

intend to do. I'm really bad at taking care of myself, so this is

going to be a big challenge.

Just be gentle with yourself, Judith.

Love,

> so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about

his

> death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a

separation. can

> you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but

really no

> more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can

handle.

> when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our

marriage

> there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit

is

normal.

> my shit as much as his.

>

> so I'm sorry, I really am, about the death of one of ours. I

recognize his

> name but did not know him well. and we are such a small band, and I

do

> nothing of substance to contribute to this movement such as it is.

so these

> losses, kevin and the guy who died a few weeks ago,

> I-can't-remember-his-last-name, the guy who couldn't get medicinal

> marijuana, these are big and real losses.

>

> but i am not, and never have been, a good enough person to be able

to turn

> off my own pain at my own relatively insignificant losses, because

there is

> a bigger loss at hand. why do i even write this stuff? never mind

that, why

> send it once it's written?

>

> send it i will, nevertheless. because bottom line, it is not a

competition

> to see whose pain hurts the most. it's life, it's a bunch of people

trying

> to figure stuff out. and ya never really know what is going to be

helpful to

> someone else in figuring out their own problems. and it is helpful

for me to

> spill my guts here, and get whatever support i can in return.

>

> judith

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Say Bye to Slow Internet!

> http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

[Guest guest]

At 01:39 PM 7/12/00 -0000, Rose wrote:

>Judith,

>

>I can so understand your pain. I have a separation plan in effect

>myself, although my fiance is not aware of it. It is the only thing

>that gives me hope. I sincerely hope you do the same to keep your

>sanity through whatever may come.

>

>I have recently purchased stocks, started a separate savings account,

>began investigating moving out of state and getting a job, quit

>buying

>anything but necessary things and started to concentrate on me

>instead

>of the SO. I have tried so many different approaches to the problem,

>but how can you talk to someone who firmly believes that all your

>problems as a couple are solely YOUR fault?

>

>I am planning to give this relationship a reasonable amount of time:

>6-8 months. Then, if at that time, the relationship is still not

>salvageable, I will continue my life elsewhere. I have plans to

>start

> exercising diligently,

This all sounds good so far...

>seek some kind of inner peace starting

>with TM and some other things.

...but the mention of TM worries me. I've read lots of books and

articles critical of many organizations - and for whatever reason

(possibly that it puts on such a good mom-and-apple-pie PR front), AA

is not mention in cult literature nearly as often as several other

groups are, including TM.

A quick search brings up this pertinent website:

<http://www.minet.org/>

I also want to emphasize that I don't want to take away from

the sentiments expressed in rest of this message and the whole

thread. I'd like to contribute but I feel I'm not very good with

such thoughts.

>Life is too short. was very young and it makes me sad too.

>Your grief over your relationship is possibly contributing to your

>reaction to the announcement, but losses ARE losses and it make

>perfect sense to me.

>

>We are living and should take full advantage of that. It's what I

>intend to do. I'm really bad at taking care of myself, so this is

>going to be a big challenge.

>

>Just be gentle with yourself, Judith.

>

>Love,

>

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Ben,

Please share your thoughts with me. I would welcome any suggestions

to ease the turmoil inside. I have never really been comfortable

with

any organization and honestly have no idea where to turn. I

certainly

do not want to re-expose myself to the cult scene, but I very

much need something! Thank you for you concern.

> >Judith,

> >

> >I can so understand your pain. I have a separation plan in effect

> >myself, although my fiance is not aware of it. It is the only

thing

> >that gives me hope. I sincerely hope you do the same to keep your

> >sanity through whatever may come.

> >

> >I have recently purchased stocks, started a separate savings

account,

> >began investigating moving out of state and getting a job, quit

> >buying

> >anything but necessary things and started to concentrate on me

> >instead

> >of the SO. I have tried so many different approaches to the

problem,

> >but how can you talk to someone who firmly believes that all your

> >problems as a couple are solely YOUR fault?

> >

> >I am planning to give this relationship a reasonable amount of

time:

> >6-8 months. Then, if at that time, the relationship is still not

> >salvageable, I will continue my life elsewhere. I have plans to

> >start

> > exercising diligently,

>

> This all sounds good so far...

>

> >seek some kind of inner peace starting

> >with TM and some other things.

>

> ...but the mention of TM worries me. I've read lots of books and

> articles critical of many organizations - and for whatever reason

> (possibly that it puts on such a good mom-and-apple-pie PR front),

AA

> is not mention in cult literature nearly as often as several other

> groups are, including TM.

> A quick search brings up this pertinent website:

> <http://www.minet.org/>

>

> I also want to emphasize that I don't want to take away from

> the sentiments expressed in rest of this message and the whole

> thread. I'd like to contribute but I feel I'm not very good with

> such thoughts.

>

> >Life is too short. was very young and it makes me sad too.

> >Your grief over your relationship is possibly contributing to your

> >reaction to the announcement, but losses ARE losses and it make

> >perfect sense to me.

> >

> >We are living and should take full advantage of that. It's what I

> >intend to do. I'm really bad at taking care of myself, so this is

> >going to be a big challenge.

> >

> >Just be gentle with yourself, Judith.

> >

> >Love,

> >

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

> so i'm seeing Yriondo's name and i'm trying to feel bad about

his

> death. but ya know what? my husband and i are negotiating a

separation. can

> you beat that? negotiating a separation. it sounds so bizarre, but

really no

> more so than my marriage. fucking weird is what it is. weird, I can

handle.

> when I expect life to be weird I'm never disappointed. but in our

marriage

> there's been so damned much pretending that the most twisted shit

is normal.

> my shit as much as his.

Judith, you've put a lot into this marriage, and a separation/divorce

is one of the most stressful times a person can go through in thier

lives. It would not be normal to be able to mourn the deaths of

people you don't even know while you are going through this. Please

don't fall into the trap of thinking your emotions have to be in line

with some notion of correctness. That's what they tried to do to us

in AA.

It's not about being good. Do you think I could have put up and

updated a website if I had family problems right now? Hell no! My

life is settled, going smooth, and I can do this. Last year, when my

son was hospitalized with pancreatitis, I did nothing at all for any

" movement. " I was at his bedside.

Everyone's voice is important, whether it's here on 12-step free, or

anywhere else. My sympathies for what you are going through. You are

still alive too! That makes you superior, Judith, and of great value!

[Guest guest]

> Please don't fall into the trap of thinking your emotions have to be in

line with some notion of correctness. That's what they tried to do to us in

AA.

thank you for your response, . I quoted this one line because I think

it is maybe the most important thing that defines what is wrong with AA and

specifically 12 step treatment. As Bjørn said, one can feel more emotions

than they ever imagined. Emotions are unpredictable and sometimes

disturbing, and we have to control them to function in society.

I guess I'm trying to say that it's possible to control emotions without

trying to erase them completely. I think, now, that whole people feel anger

and self pity (hence the subject line) and other unattractive things.

Obviously I can't give free rein to all my emotions, all the time; but I

think it's important to accept them and not spend any more time 4th stepping

myself. I feel what I feel, end of story, move on.

Your website rocks, . 12 step free rocks!

Judith

_______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hi Judith-

HERE, WHEN YOU SAY-

> I guess I'm trying to say that it's possible to control emotions

without

> trying to erase them completely. I think, now, that whole people

feel anger

> and self pity (hence the subject line) and other unattractive

things.

I agree about being able control emotions. But-

Is it 'unattractive' to feel these feelings-why? I prefer to think

of

them as flags for action. If I am angry about a situation, it makes

me want to do something about it-but I think both emotions you

mention

here can be feelings that spur one to do something about it. If I am

feeling sorry for myself, it isn't ugly-it's a sign to me I'm not

being taken care of or I am not taking good care of myself. I guess

what I'm trying to say is that I try to avoid beating myself about

anything and do for myself what I can to put myself in a better frame

of mind. (Hence, my private note to you Tuesday) I have been feeling

these two emotions very strongly myself the past month or so, and I

am

finding if I can my view or angle at looking at an issue, most of the

time I can change because I choose to find a solution-a different way

of dealing with a problem. It isn't turning my back in it; it's

facing it. I have always struggled with self-pity in the past, but

since leaving AA, I have developed the attitude that I will allow

myself that emotion, because when I'm done crying and hugging myself,

I feel relieved and purged and can go forward. It is a process for

me.

> Obviously I can't give free rein to all my emotions, all the time;

but I

> think it's important to accept them and not spend any more time 4th

stepping

> myself. I feel what I feel, end of story, move on.

>

> Your website rocks, . 12 step free rocks!

>

> Judith

>

I have gotten overwhelmed at work and have learned in the past year

to

hang on until I have an appropriate time and place to vent. Driving

in my car on an off-road-yelling about what is making me angry has

helped! Did last night. There was nobody around (I live in BFE) and

I felt so much better! Different situations call for different

solutions...

Don't know if this helps. But I'm still alive, too!

I second you opinion about 's website, too! Just there as a

matter of fact. BTW-where is the segment about ? I couldn't

find it. Thanks.

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Say Bye to Slow Internet!

> http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

[Guest guest]

> Hi Judith-

>

> HERE, WHEN YOU SAY-

> > I guess I'm trying to say that it's possible to control emotions

> without

> > trying to erase them completely. I think, now, that whole people

> feel anger

> > and self pity (hence the subject line) and other unattractive

> things.

>

> I agree about being able control emotions. But-

>

> Is it 'unattractive' to feel these feelings-why? I prefer to think

> of

> them as flags for action. If I am angry about a situation, it

makes

> me want to do something about it-but I think both emotions you

> mention

> here can be feelings that spur one to do something about it. If I

am

> feeling sorry for myself, it isn't ugly-it's a sign to me I'm not

> being taken care of or I am not taking good care of myself. I

guess

> what I'm trying to say is that I try to avoid beating myself about

> anything and do for myself what I can to put myself in a better

frame

> of mind. (Hence, my private note to you Tuesday) I have been

feeling

> these two emotions very strongly myself the past month or so, and I

> am

> finding if I can my view or angle at looking at an issue, most of

the

> time I can change because I choose to find a solution-a different

way

> of dealing with a problem. It isn't turning my back in it; it's

> facing it. I have always struggled with self-pity in the past, but

> since leaving AA, I have developed the attitude that I will allow

> myself that emotion, because when I'm done crying and hugging

myself,

> I feel relieved and purged and can go forward. It is a process for

> me.

>

> > Obviously I can't give free rein to all my emotions, all the

time;

> but I

> > think it's important to accept them and not spend any more time

4th

> stepping

> > myself. I feel what I feel, end of story, move on.

> >

> > Your website rocks, . 12 step free rocks!

> >

> > Judith

> >

> I have gotten overwhelmed at work and have learned in the past year

> to

> hang on until I have an appropriate time and place to vent.

Driving

> in my car on an off-road-yelling about what is making me angry has

> helped! Did last night. There was nobody around (I live in BFE)

and

> I felt so much better! Different situations call for different

> solutions...

>

> Don't know if this helps. But I'm still alive, too!

>

>

>

>

> I second you opinion about 's website, too! Just there as a

> matter of fact. BTW-where is the segment about ? I couldn't

> find it. Thanks.

Hi

Thanks for your kind words about the site.

It's right in the middle of the Home page.

Best

[Guest guest]

>

> thank you for your response, . I quoted this one line

because

I think

> it is maybe the most important thing that defines what is wrong

with

AA and

> specifically 12 step treatment. As Bjørn said, one can feel more

emotions

> than they ever imagined. Emotions are unpredictable and sometimes

> disturbing, and we have to control them to function in society.

>

> I guess I'm trying to say that it's possible to control emotions

without

> trying to erase them completely. I think, now, that whole people

feel anger

> and self pity (hence the subject line) and other unattractive

things.

> Obviously I can't give free rein to all my emotions, all the time;

but I

> think it's important to accept them and not spend any more time 4th

stepping

> myself. I feel what I feel, end of story, move on.

I don't think it's the emotions that need controlling,but what we do

with them. That's what I hear you saying as well. Anger can empower,

fear can make for dilligence. Self pity (I would rather call it

sadness or depression) also calls for appropriate loving attentions

to

self and rest. These are all healthy, and abolutley necessary to life.

Congrats on having them, Judith!

>

> Your website rocks, .

Thanks.

>12 step free rocks!

It was the best idea for recovery in the last five years!

[Guest guest]

At 06:21 PM 7/12/00 -0000, Rose wrote:

>Ben,

>

>Please share your thoughts with me. I would welcome any suggestions

>to ease the turmoil inside. I have never really been comfortable

>with

>any organization and honestly have no idea where to turn. I

>certainly

>do not want to re-expose myself to the cult scene, but I very

>much need something! Thank you for you concern.

>

>

Gee, it seems I have little to offer, but let's see. For the past five

years I've been going to a Unitarian Universalist congregation (as opposed

to a 'church' - some UU's don't even like the word 'congregation' and prefer

'fellowship' instead). When I first went there I was still going to AA for

what little social support I could make myself believe I had there (I was

basically an outcast; someone they though would drink again as I had no

sponsor), and afraid UU might be a cult (this was toward the end of a LOT

of reading about cults, so there was one under every rock). But there are

many people there recovering from various Christian cults even if they

don't know it and aren't really dealing with it (one guy told me how he

would never touch a bible again, after having been in The Way

International - he added, " I've heard of people who think it's a cult " ).

UUism doesn't require or even 'suggest' any belief system - I thought

this was quite a turnaround for something that calls itself a 'religion',

vs. AA which DOES 'suggest' belief in a higher power, yet says it's NOT

a religion. Attending UU will also help understand Garrison Keillor's UU

jokes on " Prarie Home Companion " .

In the last year I've moved and found a new UU congregation, and saw

online a nearby 'humanist association' or whatever it is that I've been

meaning to check out. I haven't seen them listed in any cult literature,

so I THINK they're okay...

I can't give any specifics about 'turmoil', but it appears others here

have good ideas on how to safely and appropriately express feelings

(beating the shit out of AA sponsors is a nice fantasy, but may not fly

in the real world), at least a lot more so than in AA.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

By turmoil, I mean that I'm agnostic and feel mixed up, anxious and

confused. In AA, I had a fairly defined HP that I was never really

comfortable with, but it worked-mostly like a car with a flat tire!

I am afraid that I could fall back into a cult and cringe at the

thought of organized religion-or any group with a certain set of

beliefs. Kind of ambivalent, huh?

I am also in danger of losing my present relationship. My SO and I

suffered the loss of his 21-year old son in April, 1999 and buried

him

on what was supposed to be our wedding day. That event was the icing

on the cake as far as being the story of my life: Seems everything I

touch turns to shit no matter how positive I try to be or how hard I

work. Until the boy died, my SO and I were unbelieveably happy. We

did everything together; could weather any storm and did and loved

and

were generous. I had an inner calm I could scarcely believe-but it

was true. The peace and love I felt and shared was beyond my wildest

dreams-and I didn't need AA anymore. Check out our picture in the

files. It was taken during the very best time of my life-his too. I

can't even look at that picture anymore.

In the past year I have gone from almost wife to fiancee to

girlfriend

and the most recent referral to me is 'partner' and 'her'. I am to

blame for all that is wrong in his life. I will spare you the details.

I have been in therapy since July 1999, but he hasn't done anything

for himself except transfer all his pain and anger of his son's death

to me and I'm just not that strong. I am weakening under the weight.

What I need is to depend on something-maybe simply myself. But I

need

something. Thanks for the direction. I am willing to try everything

and anything.

> >Ben,

> >

> >Please share your thoughts with me. I would welcome any

suggestions

> >to ease the turmoil inside. I have never really been comfortable

> >with

> >any organization and honestly have no idea where to turn. I

> >certainly

> >do not want to re-expose myself to the cult scene, but I very

> >much need something! Thank you for you concern.

> >

> >

>

> Gee, it seems I have little to offer, but let's see. For the

past

five

> years I've been going to a Unitarian Universalist congregation (as

opposed

> to a 'church' - some UU's don't even like the word 'congregation'

and prefer

> 'fellowship' instead). When I first went there I was still going to

AA for

> what little social support I could make myself believe I had there

(I was

> basically an outcast; someone they though would drink again as I

had

no

> sponsor), and afraid UU might be a cult (this was toward the end of

a LOT

> of reading about cults, so there was one under every rock). But

there are

> many people there recovering from various Christian cults even if

they

> don't know it and aren't really dealing with it (one guy told me

how

he

> would never touch a bible again, after having been in The Way

> International - he added, " I've heard of people who think it's a

cult " ).

> UUism doesn't require or even 'suggest' any belief system - I

thought

> this was quite a turnaround for something that calls itself a

'religion',

> vs. AA which DOES 'suggest' belief in a higher power, yet says it's

NOT

> a religion. Attending UU will also help understand Garrison

Keillor's UU

> jokes on " Prarie Home Companion " .

> In the last year I've moved and found a new UU congregation, and

saw

> online a nearby 'humanist association' or whatever it is that I've

been

> meaning to check out. I haven't seen them listed in any cult

literature,

> so I THINK they're okay...

> I can't give any specifics about 'turmoil', but it appears

others

here

> have good ideas on how to safely and appropriately express feelings

> (beating the shit out of AA sponsors is a nice fantasy, but may not

fly

> in the real world), at least a lot more so than in AA.

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

,

I feel so sorry for you. How awful that tragedy should strike your

partner and you this way. If only he could see what has happened here.

I expect you talk about this with your therapist a great deal.

Perhaps time to talk with your therapist about dealing with this head

on? You could carefully put together what you need to say to your

man, saying how much you love hm and how happy you have been with him

before the tragedy struck, *and* (rather than but) you want to get

those times back again as far as possible.. Clearly, he will be

grieving his son for a long time and in reality the rest of his life,

but it would be a double tragedy to lose the woman he loves as well.

I'm sure you would give him total support for therapy or

counselling (alone or together)or anything else he might want to do to

cope with the problem, and he needs to look at it. You may have said

all this before, of course, in which case tyou need to decide how are

you going to respond to this situation, accepting things as they are (

or might get) or perhaps deciding to look elsewhere for a

close relationship.

You sound so strong and courageous in your post; someone with that

strength and wisdom will assuredly find happiness eventually - bad

luck can't dog you forever.

Very best to you both.

P.

> > >Ben,

> > >

> > >Please share your thoughts with me. I would welcome any

> suggestions

> > >to ease the turmoil inside. I have never really been comfortable

> > >with

> > >any organization and honestly have no idea where to turn. I

> > >certainly

> > >do not want to re-expose myself to the cult scene, but I very

> > >much need something! Thank you for you concern.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Gee, it seems I have little to offer, but let's see. For the

> past

> five

> > years I've been going to a Unitarian Universalist congregation (as

> opposed

> > to a 'church' - some UU's don't even like the word 'congregation'

> and prefer

> > 'fellowship' instead). When I first went there I was still going

to

> AA for

> > what little social support I could make myself believe I had there

> (I was

> > basically an outcast; someone they though would drink again as I

> had

> no

> > sponsor), and afraid UU might be a cult (this was toward the end

of

> a LOT

> > of reading about cults, so there was one under every rock). But

> there are

> > many people there recovering from various Christian cults even if

> they

> > don't know it and aren't really dealing with it (one guy told me

> how

> he

> > would never touch a bible again, after having been in The Way

> > International - he added, " I've heard of people who think it's a

> cult " ).

> > UUism doesn't require or even 'suggest' any belief system - I

> thought

> > this was quite a turnaround for something that calls itself a

> 'religion',

> > vs. AA which DOES 'suggest' belief in a higher power, yet says

it's

> NOT

> > a religion. Attending UU will also help understand Garrison

> Keillor's UU

> > jokes on " Prarie Home Companion " .

> > In the last year I've moved and found a new UU congregation,

and

> saw

> > online a nearby 'humanist association' or whatever it is that I've

> been

> > meaning to check out. I haven't seen them listed in any cult

> literature,

> > so I THINK they're okay...

> > I can't give any specifics about 'turmoil', but it appears

> others

> here

> > have good ideas on how to safely and appropriately express

feelings

> > (beating the shit out of AA sponsors is a nice fantasy, but may

not

> fly

> > in the real world), at least a lot more so than in AA.

> >

> > -----

> > http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Pete, Thanks so very much for your kind thoughts.

Charlie has been to therapy with me and feels that the therapist is

taking sides. I guess the route to go would be a totally different

therapist and I think he would be willing.

Pete, it is not that he doesn't love me and isn't willing to work it

out, he's just blaming me for the pain he feels and it needs to be

properly directed-away from me. The cruelest thing he says to me is

that all I cared about was a lost wedding date and that is SO not

fair. I treated Nick BETTER than my own because his own mother had

rejected him and he needed me and I was happy to oblige. We had a

very affectionate relationship.

Charlie is not receptive to therapy by himself. He puts himself in a

position where he wants people to depend on him. He wants to take

care of everybody. He's not up to it, but keeps pushing himself.

You

can't run a car without gas (or petrol, if you will). I think the

best idea is the couples therapy.

Thanks again for your response.

> > > >Ben,

> > > >

> > > >Please share your thoughts with me. I would welcome any

> > suggestions

> > > >to ease the turmoil inside. I have never really been

comfortable

> > > >with

> > > >any organization and honestly have no idea where to turn. I

> > > >certainly

> > > >do not want to re-expose myself to the cult scene, but I very

> > > >much need something! Thank you for you concern.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Gee, it seems I have little to offer, but let's see. For the

> > past

> > five

> > > years I've been going to a Unitarian Universalist congregation

(as

> > opposed

> > > to a 'church' - some UU's don't even like the word

'congregation'

> > and prefer

> > > 'fellowship' instead). When I first went there I was still

going

> to

> > AA for

> > > what little social support I could make myself believe I had

there

> > (I was

> > > basically an outcast; someone they though would drink again as I

> > had

> > no

> > > sponsor), and afraid UU might be a cult (this was toward the

end

> of

> > a LOT

> > > of reading about cults, so there was one under every rock). But

> > there are

> > > many people there recovering from various Christian cults even

if

> > they

> > > don't know it and aren't really dealing with it (one guy told me

> > how

> > he

> > > would never touch a bible again, after having been in The Way

> > > International - he added, " I've heard of people who think it's

a

> > cult " ).

> > > UUism doesn't require or even 'suggest' any belief system - I

> > thought

> > > this was quite a turnaround for something that calls itself a

> > 'religion',

> > > vs. AA which DOES 'suggest' belief in a higher power, yet says

> it's

> > NOT

> > > a religion. Attending UU will also help understand Garrison

> > Keillor's UU

> > > jokes on " Prarie Home Companion " .

> > > In the last year I've moved and found a new UU congregation,

> and

> > saw

> > > online a nearby 'humanist association' or whatever it is that

I've

> > been

> > > meaning to check out. I haven't seen them listed in any cult

> > literature,

> > > so I THINK they're okay...

> > > I can't give any specifics about 'turmoil', but it appears

> > others

> > here

> > > have good ideas on how to safely and appropriately express

> feelings

> > > (beating the shit out of AA sponsors is a nice fantasy, but may

> not

> > fly

> > > in the real world), at least a lot more so than in AA.

> > >

> > > -----

> > > http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Hey --I am treading perilously close to psychoanalyzing you here, so

let me know if it is unwelcome.

In the 1st paragraph quoted below, you take responsibility for your SO's

son's death:

" Seems everything I touch turns to shit no matter how positive I try to be

or how hard I work. "

I think you know that you are not to blame in any way, but that choice of

wording betrays your feelings of guilt. Maybe Bjørn knows for sure, but I

think that it is normal to take this kind of responsibility. This is what I

consider the " bargaining " part of the grieving process: denial, anger,

bargaining, depression, acceptance. Bargaining= " There must be something I

could have done to prevent this, some control I could have taken over this

event. " But there's nothing. It's out of your hands.

Your SO is changed forever, just like I was changed forever when I found I

couldn't have kids. I don't think he can accept that, just as my husband

couldn't accept what was going on with me: he can't be a father, because I

can't be a mother. I think it's easier for him to " project " the problem onto

you, just as my husband projected his problem, the lost opportunity to

father children, onto me.

I went to therapy, I went on meds, I made a lot of changes. and ultimately

they have been changes for the better, _for me_. but my husband can't see

where my problems end and his begin, so...as usual, I just see everything so

much more clearly than he does (kidding).

[in explaining your problem this way, I am in fact projecting _my_ problem

onto you: I am seeing your problem with your SO, through the filter of my

own problems with my husband. Projection, I think, happens like ALL THE

TIME.]

my 2 cents, and worth every penny--

judith

> I am also in danger of losing my present relationship. My SO and I

suffered the loss of his 21-year old son in April, 1999 and buried him on

what was supposed to be our wedding day. That event was the icing on the

cake as far as being the story of my life: Seems everything I touch turns

to shit no matter how positive I try to be or how hard I work. Until the

boy died, my SO and I were unbelieveably happy. We did everything together;

could weather any storm and did and loved and were generous. I had an

inner calm I could scarcely believe-but it was true. The peace and love I

felt and shared was beyond my wildest dreams-and I didn't need AA anymore.

Check out our picture in the files. It was taken during the very best time

of my life-his too. I can't even look at that picture anymore.

>

> In the past year I have gone from almost wife to fiancee to girlfriend

and the most recent referral to me is 'partner' and 'her'. I am to blame

for all that is wrong in his life. I will spare you the details.

>

> I have been in therapy since July 1999, but he hasn't done anything for

himself except transfer all his pain and anger of his son's death to me and

I'm just not that strong. I am weakening under the weight. What I need is

to depend on something-maybe simply myself. But I need something. Thanks

for the direction. I am willing to try everything and anything.

_______________________________________________________

Say Bye to Slow Internet!

http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html