Re: First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

[Guest guest]

funny indeed.

if i felt that stongly i would have written you personally. its funny

that this guy is reading reviews of non AA books.

how much you want to bet he is in program himself? also, if his

" brother " (im not sure i belive this person is being

truthful) had killed himself while in program, would it be bill

wilson fault? if this guy actually did kill himself he had

problems which go beyond additction and which case AA probably would

only have compounded .

i have heard MM people on radio talk shows and AA callers would call

in and say the guest on talk show is literally

" killing people " by taking away the only hope for alcholics. that is

how far the steppers belief system will take them,

to point where these people will claim those who disagree with thier

beliefs (and that all they are , they dont work

on a foundation of facts) are malciously promoting death. i suspect

this person is of same mindset.

also, as soon as i bet my web authoring skills up to par, intend on

having my own ex-AA web page this year.

dave

> Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

kills.

> It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/094263753

4/104-6896884-4406806

>

> Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> Apple

[Guest guest]

-just curious apple,

has your site ever been subject to a hacker attack?

dave

- In 12-step-freeegroups, " Apple " <AppleDTP@a...> wrote:

> Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

kills.

> It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/094263753

4/104-6896884-4406806

>

> Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> Apple

[Guest guest]

Expose the step Nazis and their life-blackmail with its deathly results --

physical death through panic " abstinence violation effect " and the deaths of

families torn apart by the insane dogma that says all and only hope is with

the step Nazis.

Doug.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:53:16 -0000

>

>funny indeed.

>if i felt that stongly i would have written you personally. its funny

>that this guy is reading reviews of non AA books.

>how much you want to bet he is in program himself? also, if his

> " brother " (im not sure i belive this person is being

>truthful) had killed himself while in program, would it be bill

>wilson fault? if this guy actually did kill himself he had

>problems which go beyond additction and which case AA probably would

>only have compounded .

>

>i have heard MM people on radio talk shows and AA callers would call

>in and say the guest on talk show is literally

> " killing people " by taking away the only hope for alcholics. that is

>how far the steppers belief system will take them,

>to point where these people will claim those who disagree with thier

>beliefs (and that all they are , they dont work

>on a foundation of facts) are malciously promoting death. i suspect

>this person is of same mindset.

>

>also, as soon as i bet my web authoring skills up to par, intend on

>having my own ex-AA web page this year.

>

>dave

>

>

>

>

> > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

>kills.

> > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> >

> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/094263753

>4/104-6896884-4406806

> >

> > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > Apple

>

>

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[Guest guest]

At 10:28 PM 4/23/00 -0000, Apple wrote:

>Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming kills.

>It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

>Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-4406806

>

>Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

>Apple

It looks like you'll have to add a counter to your site - " Number of people

claimed to have been killed as a result of this site: ___ " . I'm sure that

every time a drunk dies that had ever visited your site (or that had ever

as much as seen an AAdeprogramming.com sticker), your site will be blamed

for the death.

Have you heard anything from your webhosting service concerning

complaints to them about your site? With its 'controversial nature' and

such antagonistic people around, I think it's only a matter of time.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I saw this months ago - I should have told you.

Let's see - 1 " supposed " death from aadeprogramming

How many countless deaths from the failure of AA?

> Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

kills.

> It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-

4406806

>

> Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> Apple

[Guest guest]

ah, lets not forget AA cant fail, the Program is perfect! it works if

you work it! obviously anyone who dies trying to

get sober in while a tending AA wasnt working a good " Program " . sorry

for stepnazi speil, but thats the

rationalization

> > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

> kills.

> > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> >

> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-

> 4406806

> >

> > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > Apple

[Guest guest]

It certainly seems strange to me, that to suggest that there is some hope

for people, even if AA doesn't work for them, could lead them to kill

themselves. I wonder how that is supposed to work? I always figured that

people who killed themselves were in a despairing mood, as opposed to a

hopeful mood.

I remember thinking once, in the mid-eighties, when things had been going

rather badly for me, that if the next year was no better than the last year

had been, I might as well kill myself. I even made a careful note of the

date on which I made this decision. There were basically no 'alternative

programs' around then, and I couldn't think of anything to do except keep

trying to make AA work. The very idea that if AA didn't work for me I should

try something else never entered my mind. I'm sure that if at that exact

point in time I had come across the Ellis book or aadeprogramming.com, I

would have felt that they had saved my life.

--wally (formerly wally t., but the former Phil H. has a point)

First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

>Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming kills.

>It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

>Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-4406806

>

>Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

>Apple

[Guest guest]

I just don't think you can say that expressing your beliefs causes

people to kill themselves. It's too hysterical. It's implausible.

I

think you have to assume, then, that just about anything could

trigger

a suicide attempt in an individual this vulnerable, and thus no one

factor could be to blame. because all around me, all day long,

people

express their opinions. the only way to avoid it is to go into total

isolation.

Judith

> > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

> kills.

> > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> >

> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/094263753

> 4/104-6896884-4406806

> >

> > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > Apple

[Guest guest]

That's too funny Dave! There are far more suicides that I know of

which happened while people were active AA members, than suicides

which

happened when people bought books which were critical of AA.

Excellent

point! Steppers would probably say, that those AA members who killed

themselves just weren't working the program. Do you suppose the guy's

brother killed himself because he **wasn't** working the program of

AA

deprogramming, or taking Albert Ellis's suggestions? Now there's an

angle worth exploring.

Apple

if his

> " brother " (im not sure i belive this person is being

> truthful) had killed himself while in program, would it be bill

> wilson fault? if this guy actually did kill himself he had

> problems which go beyond additction and which case AA probably would

> only have compounded .

>

[Guest guest]

Nope. Sure hasn't. Although I imagine some steppers may have hacked

up

some phlegm and spit on their screens.

Apple

> -just curious apple,

> has your site ever been subject to a hacker attack?

> dave

>

[Guest guest]

That's a bit morbid, but I have thought of posting a public request

where steppers can report deaths which are the result of reading AA-

critical material. On the same note, it would only be fair to allow

people to report deaths of people who did NOT find what they needed

within the traditional recovery framework, and ended up dead.

No, there have been no complaints from my ISP. I like to imagine that

they're proud to have me on board. One of my favorite things is when

a

stepper whom I know personally from local meetings finds my site, not

knowing who I am, and that they know me, and I get to hash it out

with

him or her. This has happened on a couple of occasions, but may

change,

now that my picture is up. Locals may recognize me, which may be fun

in

a different way.

Apple

>

> It looks like you'll have to add a counter to your site -

" Number of people

> claimed to have been killed as a result of this site: ___ " . I'm

sure that

> every time a drunk dies that had ever visited your site (or that

had ever

> as much as seen an AAdeprogramming.com sticker), your site will be

blamed

> for the death.

> Have you heard anything from your webhosting service concerning

> complaints to them about your site? With its 'controversial nature'

and

> such antagonistic people around, I think it's only a matter of time.

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

maybe you could putup a regular counter? now im curious, with 6

degrees of seperation and all who has seen your

web page? over time your page could have a ripple effect on the idea

of 12-step recovery like a stone in a pond. or

so i woild hope.

[Guest guest]

There's already a counter on the site. It's the little blue square

on

the home page. The counter is one which counts actual visitors. Most

counters count how many " pages " (and these include graphics) are

viewed. So one visitor may view 12 " pages " . Most counters are very

misleading that way. That's why a counter on Joe Serenity's web site

may show 500 visitors per day... I get 45 to 80 visitors on average.

My record is 210, and I get high numbers when someone " plugs " my site

somewhere that unenlightened steppers visit.

Apple

> maybe you could putup a regular counter? now im curious, with 6

> degrees of seperation and all who has seen your

> web page? over time your page could have a ripple effect on the idea

> of 12-step recovery like a stone in a pond. or

> so i woild hope.

[Guest guest]

My brother's facetious anti-masturbation site ( " Americans for Purity "

on Geocities) has gotten email bombs, but he's been able to defuse

them. Also, a couple of irony-impaired political correctness

crusaders are trying to get it shut down.

> Nope. Sure hasn't. Although I imagine some steppers may have hacked

> up

> some phlegm and spit on their screens.

> Apple

>

> > -just curious apple,

> > has your site ever been subject to a hacker attack?

> > dave

> >

[Guest guest]

> Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

kills.

> It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-

4406806

>

> Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> Apple

That the writer never contacted you directly leads me to believe that

his brother's suicide is a complete fabrication. Probably a stepper

who wanted to scare other steppers away from reading the book. After

all, AAs are big on such dubious " death threats " ; how else do they

manage to keep as many coming back as they do?

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Dear Apple,

Thanks for yours. Just read " Dave " on " 12 step site worth seeing " , which

turns out to be linked to dear old Keeley's collection of nefarious

jumble at bigbrother.org. The Australian site Dave recommends and the Chris

K. thing have in common an unorthodox, creative orginality, but K's is not

at all to my taste, being obviously lost on " the dark side " spiritually.

The Australian site looks like fun, and he's got some good angles at first

sight -- Rupert Murdoch bashing is OK with me. Maybe the guy will just grow

out of the 12-steps (the anarcho-intelligence he displays is a rare bird in

the fellowships, which are generally populated by types too dumb to get to

first base on questioning anything -- the reason the " disease concept " works

so well with many is that it's the biggest idea they ever heard -- blows

their tiny minds and they can't get over it and in any case they don't want

to cos it lets them off all manner of hooks re past behaviour etc.) Rant

rant rant!!!

Anyway, very nice to know you all on a morning othjerwise demented with

solitude in sunny Wales,

love .

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

One would think that at the least the writer, so obviously distressed

to the point of action, by the death of a loved one, would have

written just a tad bit more than the couple of lines left there.

What a course of action. Instead of writing Apple and giving her a

piece of his/her mind s/he meekly chooses to place those meager

comments on Amazon's site.

I agree with your assessment .

Re: First on-line death claim for

AAdeprogramming

> Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> Apple

That the writer never contacted you directly leads me to believe that

his brother's suicide is a complete fabrication. Probably a stepper

who wanted to scare other steppers away from reading the book. After

all, AAs are big on such dubious " death threats " ; how else do they

manage to keep as many coming back as they do?

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

While I can understand why one goes to AA is a result of one being

understandably comprimised by alcohol dependence,( otherwise why

would one go to a meeting, except of course for study of the herd).I

really can't lend all that power to the soup of the group. They may

say it is AA or JID (jails, institutions or death) but excuse me but

thay are really just a bunch of wanta bees. If one decides to kill

oneself I hardly think the groupers will follow suit, hence the

suicide actually broke rank.

Of cource to those melded into the fold this is an example of the

power of the program. A mix of confused minds making good in America

and beyond.

[Guest guest]

I agree that the suicide claim is probably a fabrication. It should

also be pointed out that it might well be in violation of Amazon's

policies and that it might be libelous. In my view, it would not be a

violation of the spirit of free discussion or anything else for Apple

to demand that Amazon remove that review.

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave,

Well, let's see, I " abused " alcohol yesterday and let's see where I

landed up...work at 7am.

I thought I was supposed to be dead, in an institution, or in jail.

Hmmm....

> > > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

> > kills.

> > > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for

You:

> > > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> > >

> > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-

> > 4406806

> > >

> > > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > > Apple

[Guest guest]

Ooh, Apple, bummer

jan

First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

> Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming kills.

> It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

>

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-4406806

>

> Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> Apple

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.

> Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already

> registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:

> http://click./1/2885/1/_/4324/_/956528899/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

My first 2 years in AA, there were 4 suicides of members who went to lots

and lots and lots of meetings for lots of years. One of them was a big book

thumper. Go figure.

jan

Re: First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

> I saw this months ago - I should have told you.

>

> Let's see - 1 " supposed " death from aadeprogramming

> How many countless deaths from the failure of AA?

>

>

>

>

>

> > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

> kills.

> > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> >

> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-

> 4406806

> >

> > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > Apple

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni

> already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll

> find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:

> http://click./1/3139/1/_/4324/_/956539433/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just read the obituary on Sat. of a previous boss of mine

from a 7 year employment stint in the 80's. He had

drank and drugged himself to death.

I remember seeing his son a year ago in AA. He told me that

his dad had been in (12 step) treatment 4 different times and just

couldn't " get the program. " The son acted so self-righteous

and spoke of him with disgust.

I think that 12 step treatment and AA is the true murderer

here. A belief in powerlessness can kill.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:13:28 -0400

>

>Ooh, Apple, bummer

>

>jan

>

> First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

>

>

> > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming kills.

> > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> >

> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-4406806

> >

> > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > Apple

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.

> > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already

> > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:

> > http://click./1/2885/1/_/4324/_/956528899/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

i think thats true for alot of people. how many times have we heard

of that? where a person is destroying

themselves and they go into treatment and come

out feeling more hopeless than when they went in because they cant

adopt AA's powerless identity? that there are

powerless over everything and there is

nothing ut death for them if they leave? its with good reason they

resist it too, because they are not powerless and

never should taught that in first place. i

used to mock celebrities who went into rehab and failed over and

over. partly because i found it ridiculous they

could destroy themselves when they have

so much going. now i feel sorry for them, and every other addict that

goes into treatment only to be told if they

cant get the program they are hopeless.

>

> Just read the obituary on Sat. of a previous boss of mine

> from a 7 year employment stint in the 80's. He had

> drank and drugged himself to death.

> I remember seeing his son a year ago in AA. He told me that

> his dad had been in (12 step) treatment 4 different times and

just

> couldn't " get the program. " The son acted so self-righteous

> and spoke of him with disgust.

> I think that 12 step treatment and AA is the true murderer

> here. A belief in powerlessness can kill.

>

>

> >From: " Janice Young " <j.m.young@w...>

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> >Subject: Re: First on-line death claim for

AAdeprogramming

> >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:13:28 -0400

> >

> >Ooh, Apple, bummer

> >

> >jan

> >

> > First on-line death claim for

AAdeprogramming

> >

> >

> > > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming

kills.

> > > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> > >

> > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/09426

37534/104-6896884-4406806

> > >

> > > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > > Apple

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --------------------------------------------

----------------------------

> > > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.

> > > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already

> > > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:

> > > http://click./1/2885/1/_/4324/_/956528899/

> > > --------------------------------------------

----------------------------

> > >

> > >

> >

>

> ________________________________________________

________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Yes, well if he couldn't get the programme he had to die, huh, he just

didn't take responsibility for his recovery, poor sick loser!!! That's the

way these shits think. Some disease huh? It's a real live live killer but

you've got the " on/off " switch right there -- tell someone with cancer

" they're not taking resonsibility for their recovery " , or anyone suffering

from a real, medically and common-sensically recgonised disease -- I get

incandescent with anger, because people can die, marriages be ruined, kids

loose parents, all because us losers " don't take responsibiulity for our

recoveries " == equals give up on thinking and let some power-crazed

stepNazi run our minds on the sponsor scheme. Sometimes I really want to do

something that would get me arrested to upset these bastards in the " loving

fellowships " .

Yours

Doug.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 03:32:56 GMT

>

>

>

> Just read the obituary on Sat. of a previous boss of mine

> from a 7 year employment stint in the 80's. He had

> drank and drugged himself to death.

> I remember seeing his son a year ago in AA. He told me that

> his dad had been in (12 step) treatment 4 different times and just

> couldn't " get the program. " The son acted so self-righteous

> and spoke of him with disgust.

> I think that 12 step treatment and AA is the true murderer

> here. A belief in powerlessness can kill.

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: <12-step-freeegroups>

> >Subject: Re: First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

> >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:13:28 -0400

> >

> >Ooh, Apple, bummer

> >

> >jan

> >

> > First on-line death claim for AAdeprogramming

> >

> >

> > > Get this folks... I found the first claim that AAdeprogramming kills.

> > > It is the third book review under " When AA Doesn't Work for You:

> > > Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " by Albert Ellis.

> > >

> > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0942637534/104-6896884-4406806

> > >

> > > Funny... the writer never contacted me directly...

> > > Apple

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.

> > > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already

> > > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:

> > > http://click./1/2885/1/_/4324/_/956528899/

> > >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

________________________________________________________________________

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