Guest guest Posted April 29, 2000 Report Share Posted April 29, 2000 More power to your modem Tommy. Best wishes > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: The Debate is On >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:00:56 -0000 > >The debate is on. I'll take all the 12-step-free support I can get. > >http://usmilitary.about.com/culture/usmilitary/mpboards.htm > >Tommy > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Hi Tommy. I've joined the Forum, and I've read all the 23 (24 - 1) posts. Interesting! I'll join the Army later on, but first I want to express my appreciation of what you have done. Very good work! Best Bjørn Tommy Perkins wrote: > The debate is on. I'll take all the 12-step-free support I can get. > > http://usmilitary.about.com/culture/usmilitary/mpboards.htm > > Tommy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > http://click./1/3020/1/_/4324/_/957049261/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Tommy: I see Rod's quoting the military party line over there. He's probably a good administrator though. I get the sense when the issue came up he researched it through one of the branches of the military. Sounds like he talked to a DACO. I noted a few things I'd take issue with for the Navy treatment programs though: Refusal to stick to the terms of the aftercare is punishable under the UCMJ or dismissal from service or both. Had to sign something to that effect on exiting treatment. Navy counselors, at the treatment centers themselves, are predominately, recovering alcoholics who have a tendency to see alcoholics implications in a childhood masturbation incident. Really doesn't matter what you say during your initial counseling the odds are you'll be diagnosed dependent. ALL of our groups counselors were in recovery themselves. The funny thing is it was my DACO who first let me on to that little tidbit about the diagnosis. He used the term Command referral but mentioned nothing of the self referrals who ARE forced into treatment and AA usually with no past disciplinary problems. He claimed that counselors work with the patient if they have an alternate plan for recovery. Not in the Navy and I suspect not anywhere. The plan is put together by the counselor and forced down your throat. About the only concession I got was 3 meetings a week vice the 4 I cursed my counselor out for attempting to push on me. Let me reassure you I didn't want any. The Navy refers you to treatment or you refer your self, it doesn't matter, either way you're referred to a recovering AA who in turn funnels you to AA will he nil he. Navy Level II . Is a two week intensive treatment program. You sleep, eat, drink, and read Alcohol related trash with meetings every day. Miss one you've failed Level II which means you're out of the service. By the time you leave treatment you don't know about any alternatives to AA and even if you did you wouldn't want to spend any more of your free time searching them out and attending them. Sorry I can't join you over there for a little while yet. The Debate is On The debate is on. I'll take all the 12-step-free support I can get. http://usmilitary.about.com/culture/usmilitary/mpboards.htm Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 , I certainly understand why you can't participate now. Thanks for your support. Bob, thanks for coming in. Outstanding job! I have to go to work, but can't wait to check back in tonight. At least my site is back up and is getting exposure. So many are being forced into the program who do not even know that it is unconstitutional. Thanks, Tommy > Tommy: > > I see Rod's quoting the military party line over there. He's > probably a good administrator though. I get the sense when the issue > came up he researched it through one of the branches of the military. > Sounds like he talked to a DACO. > > > I noted a few things I'd take issue with for the Navy treatment > programs though: > > Refusal to stick to the terms of the aftercare is punishable under > the UCMJ or dismissal from service or both. Had to sign something to > that effect on exiting treatment. > > Navy counselors, at the treatment centers themselves, are > predominately, recovering alcoholics who have a tendency to see > alcoholics implications in a childhood masturbation incident. Really > doesn't matter what you say during your initial counseling the odds > are you'll be diagnosed dependent. ALL of our groups counselors were > in recovery themselves. The funny thing is it was my DACO who first > let me on to that little tidbit about the diagnosis. > > He used the term Command referral but mentioned nothing of the self > referrals who ARE forced into treatment and AA usually with no past > disciplinary problems. > > He claimed that counselors work with the patient if they have an > alternate plan for recovery. Not in the Navy and I suspect not > anywhere. The plan is put together by the counselor and forced down > your throat. About the only concession I got was 3 meetings a week > vice the 4 I cursed my counselor out for attempting to push on me. > Let me reassure you I didn't want any. The Navy refers you to > treatment or you refer your self, it doesn't matter, either way > you're referred to a recovering AA who in turn funnels you to AA will > he nil he. > > Navy Level II . Is a two week intensive treatment program. You > sleep, eat, drink, and read Alcohol related trash with meetings every > day. Miss one you've failed Level II which means you're out of the > service. By the time you leave treatment you don't know about any > alternatives to AA and even if you did you wouldn't want to spend any > more of your free time searching them out and attending them. > > > Sorry I can't join you over there for a little while yet. > > > > > > The Debate is On > > The debate is on. I'll take all the 12-step-free support I can get. > > http://usmilitary.about.com/culture/usmilitary/mpboards.htm > > Tommy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Dear Bjorn, Some pages here and links that you may find interesting on Buchman/Oxford Group. There's quite a bit on him if you enter " Buchman " on altavista, including some (predictably pietistic)AA stuff on early days in Akron, Ohio. The autobiography of Joyce Collin- is posted in its entirety. It's not a bad read, though rather " New Age " in tone -- intersting and ultimately unfavourable studies of Maharishi, Gurdjieff (?sp.), Buchman, et. al. Best wishes and hello to everyone, Doug. 1) -- http://www.mra.org.uk/discovering/05norway.html -- this is Moral Re-Armament (MRA) page on Buchman in Norway. MRA is the post-war version of the Oxford Group, strongly anti-commie and widely endorsed in USA and UK in 1950s. 2) -- http://www.mcall.com/html/potc/43741.htm By the 1930s the Oxford Group, named for the many graduates of the British university who were its members, held what were called ''house parties'' for several thousand people at country homes of the gentry. To those who felt it was the duty of preachers of the Gospel ''to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable,'' Buchman's attempt to make ''spiritual live wires'' out of the titled upper class seemed like a watering down of Christ's message. But he made no apology for trying to lead nations to God by converting their leaders. The low point for the Oxford Group came in 1936 when Buchman made some favorable comments about Adolf Hitler, suggesting the German dictator had done a service by stopping communism and that a man with absolute power, if he became a Christian, could solve the world's problems. Buchman's words were picked up by newspapers around the world, making him sound as if he wanted Germans to goosestep to God. In fact, Buchman probably had little understanding of Hitler or Nazism. 3) -- http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/edu/archive/callnomm/cnm-02.html Extract from autobiography of Joyce Collin- (maiden name initialised as " JHY " in passage below); re: involvement with Oxford Group/ Buchman: had a different reason for glumness and eventually it all came out in a torrent. " At Hays Mews they've got records on all of us. In a filing cabinet. Like a sort of police record or doctor's file. They were looking someone up, discussing his past, reading out all the sins he'd shared - that sort of thing. When I was left alone for a while I looked mine up. And yours. I glanced at them. Then I tore them up. " I was horrified. It was like a 'trusty' in prison doing the dirty on the guards. When I said this, answered: " Guards? " We looked at each other. And suddenly the whole set-up seemed quite alien and sinister to us both. Eventually my journalistic instinct came to the fore in a big way, and I wrote a lengthy article for the Oxford Times and put it tentatively on my father's desk. He had made no comments on my connection with the group, but when he had read it he said: " Not bad. Not bad at all " , and published it uncut on the leader page. It was a fair assessment for a nineteen year old, I think, pointing out the value and the dangers, the interesting phenomena, the dubious and silly as well. As was the custom on provincial papers at the time, the article was signed by my initials only. The day of the big by-line had not yet come. To my amazement the article aroused an enormous amount of correspondence and comment. Learned dons, elders of the church, Canon Stansfield of Christchurch, the local vicars, down to housewives and anxious parents who felt they had 'lost' their children to the MRA movement, were moved to write in with such profusion and verbosity that the letters page was filled with nothing but comments on the Group for weeks - until Father had to terminate it with a " This correspondence is now closed " footnote. On the whole it seemed that the churchgoers approved the movement. Canon Stansfield wanted to know who on earth JYH was that 'he' could dare to criticize a method that was nothing more nor less than a modern version of Brother Lawrence's Practice of the Presence of God. General Winser, also unaware of the authorship, berated the writer for deriding a movement that had done nothing but good " to redeem the young of this generation. " Others, however, complained like parents of the Moonies in the '80's, that their offspring had ceased to be interested in pursuing their studies or their careers and did nothing but sit idle, notebook in hand, or run around embarrassing their neighbours with spurious confessions of sin, unnecessary personal revelations, and tormenting the unconverted with evangelistic zeal and a plethora of religious books and tracts. Their conviction of having a monopoly of Truth was not unlike that of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They too thought they were chosen people. For a while I had a foot in both camps. I didn't want to lose my circle of young friends. But increasingly I found myself out of sympathy with them. ENDS ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Hi Doug, folks IIRC very few OGM ppl were ver involved with Oxford University. The name resulted when a small party of Oxford student members toured South Africa, and they were given the name there, and this was adopted by Buchman for the group as a whole. Buchman certainly did not understand Nazism. He didnt want Hitler to be any old Xtian, he wanted him to be an OGM Xtian - much OGM activity was spent recruiting members who were already Xtians. His ignorance of Nazism is clear when one remembers that Nazism was actually deistic, and encouraged doing God's will - as modern neo-Nazi groups also appear to be from the websites I visited a while back. Judaism was hated because it was considered a *materialistic*, " unspiritual " philosophy - Xtianity was also hated because it was seen as just a development of Judaism. Part of the rationale for the Holocaust was that it would destroy the " biological basis " of Judaism - Jews themselves. I think it was Ken who posted a year or so ago that toward the end of his life Hitler said: " If I have at least saved Europe from the Jew, then I have done God's will. " So much dor surrendering to God. Pete > Dear Bjorn, > > Some pages here and links that you may find interesting on Buchman/Oxford > Group. There's quite a bit > on him if you enter " Buchman " on altavista, including some > (predictably pietistic)AA stuff on early days in Akron, Ohio. The > autobiography of Joyce Collin- is posted in its entirety. It's not a > bad read, though rather " New Age " in tone -- intersting and ultimately > unfavourable studies of Maharishi, Gurdjieff (?sp.), Buchman, et. al. > > Best wishes and hello to everyone, > Doug. > > 1) -- > http://www.mra.org.uk/discovering/05norway.html > > -- this is Moral Re-Armament (MRA) page on Buchman in Norway. > MRA is the post-war version of the Oxford Group, strongly anti-commie and > widely endorsed in USA and UK in 1950s. > > 2) -- > > > http://www.mcall.com/html/potc/43741.htm > > By the 1930s the Oxford Group, named for the many graduates of > the British university who were its members, > held what were called ''house parties'' for several thousand > people at country homes of the gentry. > To those who felt it was the duty of preachers of the > Gospel ''to comfort the afflicted and afflict the > comfortable,'' Buchman's attempt to make ''spiritual live > wires'' out of the titled upper class seemed like a watering > down of Christ's message. But he made no apology for > trying to lead nations to God by converting their leaders. > > The low point for the Oxford Group came in 1936 when > Buchman made some favorable comments about Adolf > Hitler, suggesting the German dictator had done a service > by stopping communism and that a man with absolute > power, if he became a Christian, could solve the world's > problems. Buchman's words were picked up by > newspapers around the world, making him sound as if he > wanted Germans to goosestep to God. In fact, Buchman > probably had little understanding of Hitler or Nazism. > > 3) -- > > http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/edu/archive/callnomm/cnm-02.html > > Extract from autobiography of Joyce Collin- (maiden name initialised as > " JHY " in passage below); > > re: involvement with Oxford Group/ Buchman: > > had a different reason for glumness and eventually it all came out in > a torrent. > > " At Hays Mews they've got records on all of us. In a filing cabinet. Like a > sort of police record or doctor's file. They were > looking someone up, discussing his past, reading out all the sins he'd > shared - that sort of thing. When I was left alone for a > while I looked mine up. And yours. I glanced at them. Then I tore them up. " > > I was horrified. It was like a 'trusty' in prison doing the dirty on the > guards. When I said this, answered: " Guards? " > > We looked at each other. And suddenly the whole set-up seemed quite alien > and sinister to us both. > > Eventually my journalistic instinct came to the fore in a big way, and I > wrote a lengthy article for the Oxford Times and put it > tentatively on my father's desk. He had made no comments on my connection > with the group, but when he had read it he said: > " Not bad. Not bad at all " , and published it uncut on the leader page. > > It was a fair assessment for a nineteen year old, I think, pointing out the > value and the dangers, the interesting phenomena, the > dubious and silly as well. As was the custom on provincial papers at the > time, the article was signed by my initials only. The day > of the big by-line had not yet come. > > To my amazement the article aroused an enormous amount of correspondence and > comment. Learned dons, elders of the > church, Canon Stansfield of Christchurch, the local vicars, down to > housewives and anxious parents who felt they had > 'lost' their children to the MRA movement, were moved to write in with such > profusion and verbosity that the letters page was > filled with nothing but comments on the Group for weeks - until Father had > to terminate it with a " This correspondence is now > closed " footnote. > > On the whole it seemed that the churchgoers approved the movement. Canon > Stansfield wanted to know who on earth JYH > was that 'he' could dare to criticize a method that was nothing more nor > less than a modern version of Brother Lawrence's > Practice of the Presence of God. General Winser, also unaware of the > authorship, berated the writer for deriding a movement > that had done nothing but good " to redeem the young of this generation. " > > Others, however, complained like parents of the Moonies in the '80's, that > their offspring had ceased to be interested in > pursuing their studies or their careers and did nothing but sit idle, > notebook in hand, or run around embarrassing their > neighbours with spurious confessions of sin, unnecessary personal > revelations, and tormenting the unconverted with evangelistic > zeal and a plethora of religious books and tracts. Their conviction of > having a monopoly of Truth was not unlike that of the > Jehovah's Witnesses. They too thought they were chosen people. > > For a while I had a foot in both camps. I didn't want to lose my circle of > young friends. But increasingly I found myself out of > sympathy with them. > > ENDS > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Pete, you seem to make clear that Hitler wanted nothing to with the God of 1) Jews 2) Xians -- as this God is universally regarded as being One and the same, I don't see Hitler had a lot of serious gods to chose from. This is a Christian view, but its logic is obvious and begs some deep questions as to what/who Hitler did " worship/venerate " in terms of any theology he might have subscribed to, as you suggest he did. It's widely suggested he was into satanism etc. and/or various loony belief systems which just don't square with Einsteinian physics. I'd be glad to learn anything new on the subject. regards, Doug. >From: watts_pete@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: The Debate is On >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:52:34 -0000 > >Hi Doug, folks > >IIRC very few OGM ppl were ver involved with Oxford University. The >name resulted when a small party of Oxford student members toured >South Africa, and they were given the name there, and this was >adopted >by Buchman for the group as a whole. > >Buchman certainly did not understand Nazism. He didnt want Hitler to >be any old Xtian, he wanted him to be an OGM Xtian - much OGM >activity >was spent recruiting members who were already Xtians. His ignorance >of Nazism is clear when one remembers that Nazism was actually >deistic, and encouraged doing God's will - as modern neo-Nazi groups >also appear to be from the websites I visited a while back. Judaism >was hated because it was considered a *materialistic*, " unspiritual " >philosophy - Xtianity was also hated because it was seen as just a >development of Judaism. Part of the rationale for the Holocaust was >that it would destroy the " biological basis " of Judaism - Jews >themselves. I think it was Ken who posted a year or so ago that >toward >the end of his life Hitler said: " If I have at least saved Europe >from >the Jew, then I have done God's will. " So much dor surrendering to >God. > >Pete > > > > Dear Bjorn, > > > > Some pages here and links that you may find interesting on >Buchman/Oxford > > Group. There's quite a bit > > on him if you enter " Buchman " on altavista, including some > > (predictably pietistic)AA stuff on early days in Akron, Ohio. The > > autobiography of Joyce Collin- is posted in its entirety. >It's >not a > > bad read, though rather " New Age " in tone -- intersting and >ultimately > > unfavourable studies of Maharishi, Gurdjieff (?sp.), Buchman, et. >al. > > > > Best wishes and hello to everyone, > > Doug. > > > > 1) -- > > http://www.mra.org.uk/discovering/05norway.html > > > > -- this is Moral Re-Armament (MRA) page on Buchman in Norway. > > MRA is the post-war version of the Oxford Group, strongly >anti-commie and > > widely endorsed in USA and UK in 1950s. > > > > 2) -- > > > > > > http://www.mcall.com/html/potc/43741.htm > > > > By the 1930s the Oxford Group, named for the many >graduates of > > the British university who were its members, > > held what were called ''house parties'' for several thousand > > people at country homes of the gentry. > > To those who felt it was the duty of preachers of the > > Gospel ''to comfort the afflicted and afflict the > > comfortable,'' Buchman's attempt to make ''spiritual live > > wires'' out of the titled upper class seemed like a watering > > down of Christ's message. But he made no apology for > > trying to lead nations to God by converting their leaders. > > > > The low point for the Oxford Group came in 1936 when > > Buchman made some favorable comments about Adolf > > Hitler, suggesting the German dictator had done a service > > by stopping communism and that a man with absolute > > power, if he became a Christian, could solve the world's > > problems. Buchman's words were picked up by > > newspapers around the world, making him sound as if he > > wanted Germans to goosestep to God. In fact, Buchman > > probably had little understanding of Hitler or Nazism. > > > > 3) -- > > > > http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/edu/archive/callnomm/cnm-02.html > > > > Extract from autobiography of Joyce Collin- (maiden name >initialised as > > " JHY " in passage below); > > > > re: involvement with Oxford Group/ Buchman: > > > > had a different reason for glumness and eventually it all >came >out in > > a torrent. > > > > " At Hays Mews they've got records on all of us. In a filing >cabinet. >Like a > > sort of police record or doctor's file. They were > > looking someone up, discussing his past, reading out all the sins >he'd > > shared - that sort of thing. When I was left alone for a > > while I looked mine up. And yours. I glanced at them. Then I tore >them up. " > > > > I was horrified. It was like a 'trusty' in prison doing the dirty >on >the > > guards. When I said this, answered: " Guards? " > > > > We looked at each other. And suddenly the whole set-up seemed quite >alien > > and sinister to us both. > > > > Eventually my journalistic instinct came to the fore in a big way, >and I > > wrote a lengthy article for the Oxford Times and put it > > tentatively on my father's desk. He had made no comments on my >connection > > with the group, but when he had read it he said: > > " Not bad. Not bad at all " , and published it uncut on the leader >page. > > > > It was a fair assessment for a nineteen year old, I think, pointing >out the > > value and the dangers, the interesting phenomena, the > > dubious and silly as well. As was the custom on provincial papers >at >the > > time, the article was signed by my initials only. The day > > of the big by-line had not yet come. > > > > To my amazement the article aroused an enormous amount of >correspondence and > > comment. Learned dons, elders of the > > church, Canon Stansfield of Christchurch, the local vicars, >down to > > housewives and anxious parents who felt they had > > 'lost' their children to the MRA movement, were moved to write in >with such > > profusion and verbosity that the letters page was > > filled with nothing but comments on the Group for weeks - until >Father had > > to terminate it with a " This correspondence is now > > closed " footnote. > > > > On the whole it seemed that the churchgoers approved the movement. >Canon > > Stansfield wanted to know who on earth JYH > > was that 'he' could dare to criticize a method that was nothing >more >nor > > less than a modern version of Brother Lawrence's > > Practice of the Presence of God. General Winser, also unaware of >the > > authorship, berated the writer for deriding a movement > > that had done nothing but good " to redeem the young of this >generation. " > > > > Others, however, complained like parents of the Moonies in the >'80's, that > > their offspring had ceased to be interested in > > pursuing their studies or their careers and did nothing but sit >idle, > > notebook in hand, or run around embarrassing their > > neighbours with spurious confessions of sin, unnecessary personal > > revelations, and tormenting the unconverted with evangelistic > > zeal and a plethora of religious books and tracts. Their conviction >of > > having a monopoly of Truth was not unlike that of the > > Jehovah's Witnesses. They too thought they were chosen people. > > > > For a while I had a foot in both camps. I didn't want to lose my >circle of > > young friends. But increasingly I found myself out of > > sympathy with them. > > > > ENDS > > > > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >__ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2000 Report Share Posted April 30, 2000 Doug, Thanks for the links. The only non-MRA link on their national sites page is--guess what--AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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