Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks-Selfish?!!

June 12, 2000

kim you only deserve to be happy. whatever that invloves for you,

there is

nothing " selfish " about it.

June 12, 2000

They weren't concerned with your comfort--they were concerned with their

jobs. They were concerned with *their* comfort. Chemical dependency

treatment is unique among therapies in this way: the outcome of the

individual is unimportant. Even abstinence is not as important as comforting

the counselors: you have to be grateful. You have to work your program, you

have to say what they want you to say, when and how they want you to say it.

And none of it is to help you, it's all to make the counselor feel good

about their job. It's to keep the treatment center alive. If it was about

the welfare of people who come to the treatment center, treatment would not

be 12 step oriented. It's that simple.

Judith

> Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

> consensus is to do things because they will bring me

> pleasure.

>

> Well that makes sense intellectually, but

> emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

> really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

> centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

> and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

> in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

>

> I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

>

> I would really appreciate if people would write back

> and tell me what I need to hear(!).

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

June 12, 2000

I don't think people can learn when they are in pain. In that respect, the

treatment center was shooting itself in the foot. I remember being in treatment

and sitting in horribly, horribly uncomfortable chairs, and I couldn't take in a

damned thing anyone was saying because my back hurt so bad.

The same goes for emotional pain, in my view. But it takes much more than a

credentialled drug and alcohol counselor to know how to relieve it.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

> Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

>consensus is to do things because they will bring me

>pleasure.

>

> Well that makes sense intellectually, but

>emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

>really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

>centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

>and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

>in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

>

> I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

>

> I would really appreciate if people would write back

>and tell me what I need to hear(!).

>

> Thanks a bunch,

>

> Kim

>

>__________________________________________________

>

June 12, 2000

hehe, I'm not sure what you need to hear -- what would give you the most

pleasure??? I have an idea that you know they were wrong to treat you the

way they did. The way I think of the counselors in my employee assistance

program and the treatment place I went to, is pretty negative. I *see* that

now, but I didn't then.

I'm not grateful, I'm angry that they took advantage of my vulnerability to

make a buck off of me and my insurance company. They take no responsibility

for the emotional wreckage in their wake, not too mention the higher

insurance premiums we all have to pay, the cost to employers in time missed

from work for worthless treatment, the cost to families when a parent is

constantly unavailalbe because their sobriety is a higher priority than

their family.

ahhh....writing that was a pleasure!

Judith

> Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

> consensus is to do things because they will bring me

> pleasure.

>

> Well that makes sense intellectually, but

> emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

> really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

> centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

> and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

> in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

>

> I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

>

> I would really appreciate if people would write back

> and tell me what I need to hear(!).

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

June 12, 2000

Kim,

This is something that has always confused me, and truly pisses me off. In

my mind you did not deserve to be treated with anything but respect while in

a treatment center. If they let you believe for one minute that you needed

to suffer for " your sins " then they were mistreating you.

llawrence@...

motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>

> Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

> consensus is to do things because they will bring me

> pleasure.

>

> Well that makes sense intellectually, but

> emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

> really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

> centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

> and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

> in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

>

> I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

>

> I would really appreciate if people would write back

> and tell me what I need to hear(!).

>

> Thanks a bunch,

>

> Kim

>

> __________________________________________________

>

June 13, 2000

This is, of course, the CENTRAL CONTRADICTION -- exoneration from dull old

" moral guilt " 'cos you've got a " disease " , which is then treated by

specially vicious applications of " guilt " .

Wittgenstein said " A contradiction implies any number of propositions " .

This one's a nasty little cracker.

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:12:40 -0700

>

>Kim,

>This is something that has always confused me, and truly pisses me off. In

>my mind you did not deserve to be treated with anything but respect while

>in

>a treatment center. If they let you believe for one minute that you needed

>to suffer for " your sins " then they were mistreating you.

>

>llawrence@...

> motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>

> >

> > Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

> > consensus is to do things because they will bring me

> > pleasure.

> >

> > Well that makes sense intellectually, but

> > emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

> > really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

> > centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

> > and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

> > in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

> >

> > I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

> >

> > I would really appreciate if people would write back

> > and tell me what I need to hear(!).

> >

> > Thanks a bunch,

> >

> > Kim

> >

> > __________________________________________________

> >

June 13, 2000

Judith

-- this seems to me a real insight into the " emotional dynamics " of the

treatment industry. Spiritual gratification refreshing the parts other

intoxicants have vacated!

Yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:55:31 -0700 (PDT)

>

>They weren't concerned with your comfort--they were concerned with their

>jobs. They were concerned with *their* comfort. Chemical dependency

>treatment is unique among therapies in this way: the outcome of the

>individual is unimportant. Even abstinence is not as important as

>comforting

>the counselors: you have to be grateful. You have to work your program, you

>have to say what they want you to say, when and how they want you to say

>it.

>And none of it is to help you, it's all to make the counselor feel good

>about their job. It's to keep the treatment center alive. If it was about

>the welfare of people who come to the treatment center, treatment would not

>be 12 step oriented. It's that simple.

>

>Judith

>

> > Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

> > consensus is to do things because they will bring me

> > pleasure.

> >

> > Well that makes sense intellectually, but

> > emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

> > really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

> > centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

> > and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

> > in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

> >

> > I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

> >

> > I would really appreciate if people would write back

> > and tell me what I need to hear(!).

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

>Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 13, 2000

I think that just as there is a risk for burnt-out doctors and nurses

to become desensitized and callous re: physical pain, there is a risk for

those in the mental health field to lose patience and compassion. Maybe

more so, since what they have to offer helps so rarely.

A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder was told

that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually abused, she would

be too much work and needed too much time before she would see any change in

her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she doesn't fit into

their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

IMO, calling this " toughlove " or whatever is a cop-out. It's an excuse I see

used to get away with taking one's frustration out on the patient -

frustration stemming from the inadequacy of what treatment professionals

have to offer, perhaps.

You have as much right to walk this earth, enjoy yourself and be comforted

in your times of sadness as anyone else.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:38:04 -0700 (PDT)

>

> Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

>consensus is to do things because they will bring me

>pleasure.

>

> Well that makes sense intellectually, but

>emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

>really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

>centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

>and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

>in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

>

> I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

>

> I would really appreciate if people would write back

>and tell me what I need to hear(!).

>

> Thanks a bunch,

>

> Kim

>

>__________________________________________________

>

June 13, 2000

At 16:38 12/06/00 -0700, you wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback on motivation. the general

>consensus is to do things because they will bring me

>pleasure.

> Well that makes sense intellectually, but

>emotionally makes me feel REALLY guilty. I mean, do I

>really DESERVE to feel pleasure? The " treatment "

>centre said " We are not concerned with your comfort "

>and refused to help me when I was bawling my eyes out

>in extreme pain(I don't cry easily or often).

> I mean I thought I had to suffer for my sins.

> I would really appreciate if people would write back

>and tell me what I need to hear(!).

> Thanks a bunch,

> Kim

The question of whether you deserve to feel pleasure is quite revealing,

and really reminds me of the 12 step mindset I had for a while. That

treatment centre and the meetings/program/whatever planted some really

unhelpful stuff in your head I think. Look at it this way- a cat likes to

lie in the sun- it finds this pleasureable. Does the question of whether

that cat _deserves_ to feel that pleasant feeling make any sense? Of course

not. It can experience it on a sunny day if it can find somewhere to lie

for a while, it harms no-one by doing so so there is no counter-force in

operation to make its desire to lie in the sun problematic for it, and so

it chooses to lie in the sun. Period! And in the same way, you, like

everyone else, can experience pleasure in various ways. Deserving doesn't

enter into it until some sick program is planted in your head to make you

feel bad about normal healthy things. The pleasure of lying in the sun, or

whatever else you enjoy that also harms no-one else, is your birthright.

And yet it appears it has somehow been stolen from you!

What has happened, I think, is that you have been programmed with a number

of self-undermining, self-disabling ideas, like for example that there is

something wrong with your experiencing pleasure guiltlessly, that pleasure

must be paid for, that it must be in some way earned, and if you do not do

sufficient to earn it then any desire you have to experience it is wrong

and such " unearned " pleasure (should you manage to actually have any with

this rule in your head spoiling the experience with guilt) is bad. Result?

A large chunk of your quality of life, much of the good feelings that are a

normal part of life, that make life enjoyable, are denied you, and just to

make this really sick, the thing that denies this is the belief in your own

head that was put there by others.

I've had it too. In fact it is still there in the background but it has

much less effect now that I am aware of it and I counter it often. My own

way of dealing with this has been to use cognitive therapy tools, fairly

easy stuff out of books I have, to identify and then counter this kind of

programming. A good starting point is to get the belief/s spelt out in

words, on paper, and see them for what they really are, in black and white.

Then you can argue back. To answer your question directly, no, you do not

have to suffer " for your sins " - everyone makes mistakes, it is a natural

part of life. You are not doomed to eternal suffering. There is no rule

that you have to suffer, or that pleasure is forbidden. The people that

persuaded you that these things were true, were mistaken, and they were

psychologically sick. You can deprogram yourself from these beliefs if you

are determined to do so and take the necessary action.

Joe B.

June 14, 2000

Wow, I never heard of this kind of cop-out except in the drug treatment field.

Although I suppose an eating disorder could be termed " substance abuse. "

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

>A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder was told

>that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually abused, she would

>be too much work and needed too much time before she would see any change in

>her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she doesn't fit into

>their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

>

>IMO, calling this " toughlove " or whatever is a cop-out. It's an excuse I see

>used to get away with taking one's frustration out on the patient -

>frustration stemming from the inadequacy of what treatment professionals

>have to offer, perhaps.

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

June 14, 2000

I've talked about my experience, where I went to the employee assistance

program (eap) at work for depression, and they told me to go through chem

dep treatment even though the intake eval showed I was not chemically

dependent. A good friend of mine did the same thing, went to her eap for

depression. The counselor told her flat out that if she did not have an

addiction, they couldn't help her. Since she doesn't drink or do drugs, she

chose to call it a food addiction. It was inpatient treatment, and she knew

immediately that it was bs. So she fired her psychiatrist, and that was a

domino--everyone else in the program began firing their psychiatrists. I

like it when people rock the boat

Judith

> Wow, I never heard of this kind of cop-out except in the drug treatment

field. Although I suppose an eating disorder could be termed " substance

abuse. "

>

> >

> >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder was

told

> >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually abused, she

would

> >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see any

change in

> >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she doesn't fit

into

> >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

_______________________________________________________

Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

June 14, 2000

Hi Kayleigh

I can assure you that amongst *some* addiction treatment providers,

they hammer away at the notion that eating disorders are " no

different

from " drug addiction, whereas the emptiness of this viewpoint is

illustrated by the fact that some others pretty well ignore them.

This case illustrates another split in the treatment system. Some,

especially those concerned with eating disorders, are inclined to try

to brainwash pariticipants into believing that they were abused,

whereas others encourage ppl to believe their *existing memories* of

abuse are essentially irrelevant to their present condition - that

they have inborn " addictive disease " that the abuse at most " Woke up "

- whatever that means. I think both these approaches are unethical

and

can be extremely damaging.

P.

> >

> >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder

was told

> >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually abused,

she would

> >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see any

change in

> >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she doesn't

fit into

> >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

> >

> >IMO, calling this " toughlove " or whatever is a cop-out. It's an

excuse I see

> >used to get away with taking one's frustration out on the patient

-

> >frustration stemming from the inadequacy of what treatment

professionals

> >have to offer, perhaps.

> >

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Before you buy.

June 14, 2000

HI Joe

Equally amazing, and horrifying imo, are those who insist they know

for certain that ppl *havent* been abused, as if the person was on a

version of the Truman show and their every living moment known to

have

not involved any abuse. I argued with one of these on the

freedomofmind list, who said that the non-abused " gave themselves

away " by " overdramatic " and " self-possessed " statements - as if an

abused person is not likely to have personalty difficulties as a

result of their experience. Those she thought were real were those

who

were " self-protective " abt their experience - i.e. didnt talk abt it

much and hence didnt frighten the horses.

P.

> > >

> > >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder

was told

> > >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually

abused, she

> > would

> > >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see

any

> > change in

> > >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she

doesn't fit into

> > >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

> > >

> > >IMO, calling this " toughlove " or whatever is a cop-out. It's an

excuse I

> > see

> > >used to get away with taking one's frustration out on the

patient

-

> > >frustration stemming from the inadequacy of what treatment

professionals

> > >have to offer, perhaps.

>

> It is rather amazing that they told her she had to admit to being

sexually

> abused. Obviously, unless they were there at the time or have other

> evidence like videos of the supposed events in question, they

simply

could

> not know that she had been. It is remarkable to me that this does

not

> appear to have been considered! These treatment professionals would

> probably be what is sometimes called " para-professionals " , ie

people

who

> were indoctrinated in a 12 step program and on the basis of that

alone were

> then trained, quickly and inadequately by a treatment centre that

now

> (surprise surprise) employs them as staff. What is scary about the

above

> scenario is that the ones who think it is all about childhood abuse

(no

> exceptions) almost certainly consider themselves to be out in front

of the

> field, and to be " more enlightened " . I think the day will come when

being

> an AA member will be seen as a reason to not train or employ

someone

as a

> treatment professional. Since the 12 step programming imposes rules

and

> structures that go counter to effective therapy and mental health,

a

> stepper would be likely to need a lot more training and " working on

their

> own issues " before they were safe to work with clients.

>

> Joe B.

June 14, 2000

Hi Judith

I never cease to be amazed at the immense power and corruption of

these EAP mafia. It's incredible.

I hope those fired shrinks were stepper shrinks. The really awful

thing abt the US scene is that it doesnt even help to tell ppl to go

to the professionals, as steppism has so taken them over too. How do

you fight the bodysnatchers when there are more aliens than ppl?

As an aside, I know that my old rehab helped a patient scam her

insurance company to have a time in there. They didnt want to cover

treatment costs for her tobacco addiction, perhaps because she had

already stopped smoking before she went in! They were talking abt

claiming it as treatment for depression. I'm amazed at how open they

were abt that. In fairness, I must say that the gaffer at the top of

the tree didnt find out abt until after the event, and he said he

wouldnt have allowed it if he had known, and I believe him.

P.

> > >

> > >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating

disorder

was

> told

> > >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually

abused, she

> would

> > >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see

any

> change in

> > >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she

doesn't fit

> into

> > >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

June 14, 2000

Hey Jo . . . where you goin' with that gun in yor hand?

DH.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:15:23 -0700

>

>At 08:25 14/06/00 -0700, you wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder was

>told

> > >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually abused, she

> > would

> > >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see any

> > change in

> > >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she doesn't fit

>into

> > >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

> > >

> > >IMO, calling this " toughlove " or whatever is a cop-out. It's an excuse

>I

> > see

> > >used to get away with taking one's frustration out on the patient -

> > >frustration stemming from the inadequacy of what treatment

>professionals

> > >have to offer, perhaps.

>

>It is rather amazing that they told her she had to admit to being sexually

>abused. Obviously, unless they were there at the time or have other

>evidence like videos of the supposed events in question, they simply could

>not know that she had been. It is remarkable to me that this does not

>appear to have been considered! These treatment professionals would

>probably be what is sometimes called " para-professionals " , ie people who

>were indoctrinated in a 12 step program and on the basis of that alone were

>then trained, quickly and inadequately by a treatment centre that now

>(surprise surprise) employs them as staff. What is scary about the above

>scenario is that the ones who think it is all about childhood abuse (no

>exceptions) almost certainly consider themselves to be out in front of the

>field, and to be " more enlightened " . I think the day will come when being

>an AA member will be seen as a reason to not train or employ someone as a

>treatment professional. Since the 12 step programming imposes rules and

>structures that go counter to effective therapy and mental health, a

>stepper would be likely to need a lot more training and " working on their

>own issues " before they were safe to work with clients.

>

>Joe B.

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 14, 2000

Surely everyone is dependent on chemicals? I personally eat a lot of

bananas, which contain a useful amount of potassium.

Yrs dietarily,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:07:08 -0700 (PDT)

>

>I've talked about my experience, where I went to the employee assistance

>program (eap) at work for depression, and they told me to go through chem

>dep treatment even though the intake eval showed I was not chemically

>dependent. A good friend of mine did the same thing, went to her eap for

>depression. The counselor told her flat out that if she did not have an

>addiction, they couldn't help her. Since she doesn't drink or do drugs, she

>chose to call it a food addiction. It was inpatient treatment, and she knew

>immediately that it was bs. So she fired her psychiatrist, and that was a

>domino--everyone else in the program began firing their psychiatrists. I

>like it when people rock the boat

>

>Judith

>

> > Wow, I never heard of this kind of cop-out except in the drug treatment

>field. Although I suppose an eating disorder could be termed " substance

>abuse. "

>

> >

> > >

> > >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating disorder was

>told

> > >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually abused, she

>would

> > >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see any

>change in

> > >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she doesn't fit

>into

> > >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

>Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

June 14, 2000

Pete

-- do you have to be an addict or an ADDICT? I'm not clear about a lot of

this stuff, but I stopped buying badges years ago. " Son, this ain't a

dream no more, it's the real thing " -- Bob Dylan, " Senor " .

.

>From: watts_pete@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:30:36 -0000

>

>Hi Judith

>

>I never cease to be amazed at the immense power and corruption of

>these EAP mafia. It's incredible.

>

>I hope those fired shrinks were stepper shrinks. The really awful

>thing abt the US scene is that it doesnt even help to tell ppl to go

>to the professionals, as steppism has so taken them over too. How do

>you fight the bodysnatchers when there are more aliens than ppl?

>

>As an aside, I know that my old rehab helped a patient scam her

>insurance company to have a time in there. They didnt want to cover

>treatment costs for her tobacco addiction, perhaps because she had

>already stopped smoking before she went in! They were talking abt

>claiming it as treatment for depression. I'm amazed at how open they

>were abt that. In fairness, I must say that the gaffer at the top of

>the tree didnt find out abt until after the event, and he said he

>wouldnt have allowed it if he had known, and I believe him.

>

>P.

>

> > > >

> > > >A woman I correspond with who sought help for an eating

>disorder

>was

> > told

> > > >that since she wouldn't " admit " that she had been sexually

>abused, she

> > would

> > > >be too much work and needed too much time before she would see

>any

> > change in

> > > >her behavior. She was not sexually abused, and because she

>doesn't fit

> > into

> > > >their hypothesis, she is useless to them. Real scientific.

> >

> > _______________________________________________________

> > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

>

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June 14, 2000

Hey Joe, keep up the good work,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: motivation-you mean be-eeks- " Selfish " ?!!

>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 00:26:43 -0700

>

>At 23:00 14/06/00 +0000, you wrote:

> >Hey Jo . . . where you goin' with that gun in yor hand?

> >

> >DH.

>

>In fact it is a glue gun and I'm making a collage of some of my unsold

>flock paintings of large eyed Polynesian children...

>

>Joe B.

>

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June 14, 2000

Without chemicals, life itself would be impossible.

Judith

> Surely everyone is dependent on chemicals? I personally eat a lot of

> bananas, which contain a useful amount of potassium.

>

> Yrs dietarily,

>

> .

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June 14, 2000

What kind of insanity is this?

I agree with you, it's unethical. Health providers are treating people, not

" eating disorders. "

I will say I've always been curious about why overeaters would ever consider a

12-step approach, considering that abstinence from food is not possible.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Hi Kayleigh

>

>I can assure you that amongst *some* addiction treatment providers,

>they hammer away at the notion that eating disorders are " no

>different

>from " drug addiction, whereas the emptiness of this viewpoint is

>illustrated by the fact that some others pretty well ignore them.

>

>This case illustrates another split in the treatment system. Some,

>especially those concerned with eating disorders, are inclined to try

>to brainwash pariticipants into believing that they were abused,

>whereas others encourage ppl to believe their *existing memories* of

>abuse are essentially irrelevant to their present condition - that

>they have inborn " addictive disease " that the abuse at most " Woke up "

>- whatever that means. I think both these approaches are unethical

>and

>can be extremely damaging.

>

>P.

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

June 14, 2000

I guess you Brits don't have EAPs like we do.

I'm sort of surprised that you are surprised that the kind of insurance scamming

described goes on. Probably the British are more ethical than we? Or haven't

been squeezed so much by health care payors? I admit I do not know how the

National Health works.

It's my personal belief that professionals who have nothing to sell but time are

entitled to be reimbursed for their time, always assuming they have really

rendered a service. I think this drives many otherwise honest people to the

outer boundaries of honesty when they make diagnoses and describe the services

they have rendered. The way the health care industry is designed in the States

makes this necessary for some people to make a living at all, and I'm not sure I

would call it truly dishonest. It's not saying that you did an appendectomy

when you just felt someone's tummy. That would be fraud. But describing

someone who is temporarily distraught, and whose friends won't help out or who

has no friends as having an anxiety disorder or temporary situational depression

does not rise to fraud, in my opinion.

There are many insurance plans in this country that only allow 10 outpatient

visits for mental problems. This clearly won't adequately treat an OCD problem,

or dysthymia. How can I blame practitioners for stretching the truth for

insurance companies?

As I say, bottom line, a service must be rendered. This eliminates all types of

12 step treatment in my view.