Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

[Guest guest]

This was a great link, too, Pete -- I stayed and read it all! You're on a

roll tonight!

watts_pete@... wrote:

> Hi All

>

> I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

>

> This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> well

> be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

> AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post of

> mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

>

> P.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Best friends, most artistic, class clown Find 'em here:

> http://click./1/4054/2/_/4324/_/959322694/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Step away from the keyboard you.

What did you do to Pete? Answer up partner we ain't got all night.

Curious. Did you note the drug abuser reform AA connection?.

Jeff of the site linked below said:

" But when it comes to recovery from alcoholism in AA, it made a big

difference INSIDE of me, (where that damned thirst likes to sleep),

when I truly joined WITH you, instead of merely join you. "

This was his quote after finally dropping the and addict after the

I'm an Alcoholic bit. He noted he was receiving weird looks whenever

he admitted he was an addict. He speaks of it in terms one might

describe as almost an epiphany when he finally decided to join them.

(borg) couldn't resist

I'm attempting not to judge here but it sounds rather like a belated

justification for his capitulation to the rewms.

STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

Hi All

I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

well

be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post of

mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

P.

[Guest guest]

Reeeeeal bad idea, Pete. This guy is a rah-rah AA AND AN ABUSIVE POSTER. I'm

in the middle of a dispute on delphi because he is addressing posts, aimed

at me, to " All " to get around the delete function available on the board.

I'll post some excerpts from his posts here in a minute.

----- Original Message -----

> Hi All

>

> I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

How about I invite him here?????

[Guest guest]

Pete,

Here are some of those quotes I promised. It took only a few minutes. If I

really took the time, I could demonstrate that Jeff actually qualifies more

as a StepNazi than reasonable. Don't let his well-spokenness fool you- he's

a rabid AAer. No disrespect to you intended, I am just more familliar with

his positions and his sarcastic, dishonest posting methods. If you do invite

him, you are making a big mistake. The only AAer that I could see inviting

is someone who posts on delphi under the moniker " Terrif " . Not that Terrif

isn't a big AAER, But Terrif does always post with respect and is willing to

see others' points of view. But Terrif is a bonafide AAer, so that's out on

this board. If You invite Jeff here, your inviting BB citations to the

forum.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From the book Alcoholics Anonymous:

" His drinking may be constant or it may be heavy only on certain occasions.

(I cut the body cut out in respect for 12SF guidelines, but is a 10 line

quote from the BB), although he may find it difficult and troublesome and

may even need medical attention. " - pg. 20-21

-----------------------------------

" The word " insanity " in the book has similar problems for many. However,

some have no problem grasping the simple concept that the " lack of

proportion and the ability to think straight " concerns itself with picking

up the first drink, in light of previous episodes. "

This is Jeff trying to justify the " insanity " credo of AA

---------------------------------------

" Allergy. Called a " theory " by Bill in the book. Used by a Doctor in the

Thirties to explain to drunks why most can never safely use alcohol in any

form. Based on his observation of hundreds of cases. He concluded that

something seems to happen in the body of someone who is addicted to alcohol

that doesn't seem to happen in a NON alcoholic. Something physical that

seemed to produce a " craving " for more. Allergy may have been the best word

and concept he could come up with. "

Jeff's attempt to justify the " Allergy " credo of AA

---------------------------------------

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

----- Original Message -----

> This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> well

> be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

> AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post of

> mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Charlene:

Thanks for your response to Pete's newest adventure.

Man, if I ever need an attorney in California, You are the ONE!

I bet you are like a Tigress when yoiu really believe in the cause and or

client.

Let me tell you something, a little unsolicited advice. If you want to learn

anything about 12 stepj programs, conflict between church and state in

mandating people to AA, You are not going to learn anything you do not really

know from this group of characters.

They are too biased the other way. They lack, what we used to refer to in

ethics,

" intellectual Integrity. " As long as Pete Watts, is running this group, and

he is, the group will eventually die or you will wish it had died. LOL

I asm going to send you another post that I was going to send when I was

going to unsubscribe this weekend. After looking at it I realize it was

vindictive and a little mean, but I'd like to share it with you, get your

thinking and then please press the DELETE KEY!

If I can be of any service to you let me know. I try to be unbiased, and

[Guest guest]

Sorry that was meant for Charlene's eyes only.

Maybe it was a Freudian slip.

OH well.

[Guest guest]

Probably so -- " the best word and concept he could come up with " -- it's one

thing having a serviceable " word and concept " , quite, quite another throwing

your weight around under the pretext that it amounts to Unique Truth.

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:05:52 -0400

>

>Pete,

>Here are some of those quotes I promised. It took only a few minutes. If I

>really took the time, I could demonstrate that Jeff actually qualifies more

>as a StepNazi than reasonable. Don't let his well-spokenness fool you- he's

>a rabid AAer. No disrespect to you intended, I am just more familliar with

>his positions and his sarcastic, dishonest posting methods. If you do

>invite

>him, you are making a big mistake. The only AAer that I could see inviting

>is someone who posts on delphi under the moniker " Terrif " . Not that Terrif

>isn't a big AAER, But Terrif does always post with respect and is willing

>to

>see others' points of view. But Terrif is a bonafide AAer, so that's out on

>this board. If You invite Jeff here, your inviting BB citations to the

>forum.

>++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>From the book Alcoholics Anonymous:

>

> " His drinking may be constant or it may be heavy only on certain occasions.

>(I cut the body cut out in respect for 12SF guidelines, but is a 10 line

>quote from the BB), although he may find it difficult and troublesome and

>may even need medical attention. " - pg. 20-21

>

>-----------------------------------

>

> " The word " insanity " in the book has similar problems for many. However,

>some have no problem grasping the simple concept that the " lack of

>proportion and the ability to think straight " concerns itself with picking

>up the first drink, in light of previous episodes. "

>

>This is Jeff trying to justify the " insanity " credo of AA

>

>---------------------------------------

>

> " Allergy. Called a " theory " by Bill in the book. Used by a Doctor in the

>Thirties to explain to drunks why most can never safely use alcohol in any

>form. Based on his observation of hundreds of cases. He concluded that

>something seems to happen in the body of someone who is addicted to alcohol

>that doesn't seem to happen in a NON alcoholic. Something physical that

>seemed to produce a " craving " for more. Allergy may have been the best word

>and concept he could come up with. "

>

>Jeff's attempt to justify the " Allergy " credo of AA

>

>---------------------------------------

>

>++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>----- Original Message -----

>

>

> > This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> > well

> > be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

> > AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post of

> > mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

> >

>

> >

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Please do NOT invite him. Please. It seems to me like inviting trouble that

we don't need. Surely we can find non-AAers to populate 12sf.

Judith

On Fri, 26 May 2000 06:31:24 -0000, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Hi All

>

> I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

>

> This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> well

> be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

> AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post of

> mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

>

> P.

>

_______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hi all;

I just can't believe after Pete's vicious attack on Mike, who made some very

intelligent contributions to this site, that Pete would read the drivel on

Jeff's site and invite him here. I went there and it made me want to puke!

Charlene

>On Fri, 26 May 2000 06:31:24 -0000, 12-step-freeegroups >wrote:

> Hi All

>

> I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

>

> This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> well

> be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

> AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post of

> mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

>

> P.

>

_______________________________________________________

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Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

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Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/26/00 10:53:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

charlene@... writes:

> I went there and it made me want to puke!

>

It's a good thing I'm in my office and the rug was cleaned last week or I

definitley would have puked! LOL

What surface crap. Not a deep thought on the page.

Believe me, if I had a choice of sending a prospect to this guy who is a

member of the program that saved my life 20 years ago. and sending her to

SMART, I wouldn't even hesitate I'd send her to SMART.

Well, if you are going to have a token AA mrember, it might as well be one

who is non threatening and easy to handle. :-)

I'm enjoying seeing how others in the group react to this " unique Idea " .

After watching the group in action, when I asked for a vote of confidence and

people who told me the day before how good I'm doing and what a contribution

I've made to the list, either kept silent, or talked like a politician on the

spot like,

" I don't think it would ber apppropriate> "

etc etc.

Well let's see how the sheep handle this one.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/26/00 3:45:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

doug_houston@... writes:

> Your flattery strategy is showing -- I'm inclined to agree that you ought

to

> go and be a creep elsewhere.

> Ain't JimK got room in there?

Anything I say to Charlene is with all sincerity and she knows it. She has a

little characteristic called Courage, my friend.

There is no reason for me to flatter her. I am unsubscribing and if I do

communicate with her it will be where people on theis trevesty of a list can

not see what we are writing.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/26/00 4:13:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

perkinstommy@... writes:

> Surely you are worthy of a place in the Guiness Book.

Thank you Sir!

<Taking a bow>

[Guest guest]

People can me MANDATED to go to AA????

That's like Chinese water torture!!!

Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

Charlene:

Thanks for your response to Pete's newest adventure.

Man, if I ever need an attorney in California, You are the ONE!

I bet you are like a Tigress when yoiu really believe in the cause and or

client.

Let me tell you something, a little unsolicited advice. If you want to learn

anything about 12 stepj programs, conflict between church and state in

mandating people to AA, You are not going to learn anything you do not

really

know from this group of characters.

They are too biased the other way. They lack, what we used to refer to in

ethics,

" intellectual Integrity. " As long as Pete Watts, is running this group, and

he is, the group will eventually die or you will wish it had died. LOL

I asm going to send you another post that I was going to send when I was

going to unsubscribe this weekend. After looking at it I realize it was

vindictive and a little mean, but I'd like to share it with you, get your

thinking and then please press the DELETE KEY!

If I can be of any service to you let me know. I try to be unbiased, and

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Old school buds here:

http://click./1/4057/2/_/4324/_/959360575/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Carey,

You asked awile back about court cards, and I don't recall anyone

responding. Court cards are cards that people take to meetings to be

signed by AA members as verification of attendence. Courts still

mandate AA attendence but this is unconstitutional. Here is my web

site, if you are new. It has a page titled " Court Opinions. "

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/index.html

Tommy

> People can me MANDATED to go to AA????

>

> That's like Chinese water torture!!!

>

> Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

>

>

> Charlene:

>

> Thanks for your response to Pete's newest adventure.

>

> Man, if I ever need an attorney in California, You are the ONE!

>

> I bet you are like a Tigress when yoiu really believe in the cause

and or

> client.

>

> Let me tell you something, a little unsolicited advice. If you want

to learn

>

> anything about 12 stepj programs, conflict between church and state

in

> mandating people to AA, You are not going to learn anything you do

not

> really

> know from this group of characters.

>

>

> They are too biased the other way. They lack, what we used to refer

to in

> ethics,

>

> " intellectual Integrity. " As long as Pete Watts, is running this

group, and

> he is, the group will eventually die or you will wish it had died.

LOL

>

> I asm going to send you another post that I was going to send when

I was

> going to unsubscribe this weekend. After looking at it I realize it

was

> vindictive and a little mean, but I'd like to share it with you,

get your

> thinking and then please press the DELETE KEY!

>

>

>

> If I can be of any service to you let me know. I try to be

unbiased, and

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

> Old school buds here:

> http://click./1/4057/2/_/4324/_/959360575/

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tommy.

You're right, I didn't get a response and thanks for explaining that.

You're right, that's got to be unconstitutional! I was hospitalized a few

times last year, my family trying to force AA on me....it was horrible. I

even got tricked into having a " discussion " in a locked ward unit, then they

turned on me and wouldn't let me out...so I have experience in doing things

that are against my will!

Thanks for the site link, I'll check it out.

Carey

Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

>

>

> Charlene:

>

> Thanks for your response to Pete's newest adventure.

>

> Man, if I ever need an attorney in California, You are the ONE!

>

> I bet you are like a Tigress when yoiu really believe in the cause

and or

> client.

>

> Let me tell you something, a little unsolicited advice. If you want

to learn

>

> anything about 12 stepj programs, conflict between church and state

in

> mandating people to AA, You are not going to learn anything you do

not

> really

> know from this group of characters.

>

>

> They are too biased the other way. They lack, what we used to refer

to in

> ethics,

>

> " intellectual Integrity. " As long as Pete Watts, is running this

group, and

> he is, the group will eventually die or you will wish it had died.

LOL

>

> I asm going to send you another post that I was going to send when

I was

> going to unsubscribe this weekend. After looking at it I realize it

was

> vindictive and a little mean, but I'd like to share it with you,

get your

> thinking and then please press the DELETE KEY!

>

>

>

> If I can be of any service to you let me know. I try to be

unbiased, and

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

> Old school buds here:

> http://click./1/4057/2/_/4324/_/959360575/

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Missing old school friends? Find them here:

http://click./1/4055/2/_/4324/_/959361933/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Yes Carey and they frequently are. Worse actually but I see your

point

RE: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

People can me MANDATED to go to AA????

That's like Chinese water torture!!!

[Guest guest]

ROFL!

- Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

Sorry that was meant for Charlene's eyes only.

Maybe it was a Freudian slip.

OH well.

--------------------------------

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FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com

Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

[Guest guest]

> Hi All

>

> I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

>

> This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> well

> be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in

reforming

> AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post

of

> mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

>

<popping out of lurker mode>

Hey, Pete, I'm not sure that's such a great idea. He doesn't seem to

want to 'reform' AA at all; in fact, he strikes me as a BB

fundamentalist. The overall tone of his site *seems* reasonable, but

he's clearly a committed AA member. Despite his assertion that he

thinks people should be free to seek other options I don't think he's

going to want to sit back and read posts about how AA has harmed

people on this list without offering AA-based advice or commentary.

If anyone here is still going to meetings, but has begun questioning

the AA doctrine, that's not a big deal. But Jeff isn't questioning

the AA doctrine at all--not the BB version. If he's trying

to 'reform' AA it's actually an attempt to purge meetings of anything

not explicitly stated in the BB, rather than question the glaring

flaws in the BB itself. He takes no issue with anything in the BB--

not the erroneous, outdated assumptions; the insulting chapters to

wives and atheists; or the overtly Christian nature of the Higher

Power.

There's been enough conflict between AA supporters and members of

this group--I think to invite Jeff to join us would only create more.

Cheers,

.

[Guest guest]

Miker

Your flattery strategy is showing -- I'm inclined to agree that you ought to

go and be a creep elsewhere.

Ain't JimK got room in there?

.

>From: mikena@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:02:23 EDT

>

>Charlene:

>

>Thanks for your response to Pete's newest adventure.

>

>Man, if I ever need an attorney in California, You are the ONE!

>

>I bet you are like a Tigress when yoiu really believe in the cause and or

>client.

>

>Let me tell you something, a little unsolicited advice. If you want to

>learn

>anything about 12 stepj programs, conflict between church and state in

>mandating people to AA, You are not going to learn anything you do not

>really

>know from this group of characters.

>

>

>They are too biased the other way. They lack, what we used to refer to in

>ethics,

>

> " intellectual Integrity. " As long as Pete Watts, is running this group, and

>he is, the group will eventually die or you will wish it had died. LOL

>

>I asm going to send you another post that I was going to send when I was

>going to unsubscribe this weekend. After looking at it I realize it was

>vindictive and a little mean, but I'd like to share it with you, get your

>thinking and then please press the DELETE KEY!

>

>

>

>If I can be of any service to you let me know. I try to be unbiased, and

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Disagree -- not enough conflict till freedom has thrived on the space

gained. Don't let's be soft on the stepLovies who are hard as bastards when

they please.

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:33:59 -0000

>

>

> > Hi All

> >

> > I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

> >

> > http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

> >

> > This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> > well

> > be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in

>reforming

> > AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post

>of

> > mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

> >

>

><popping out of lurker mode>

>

>Hey, Pete, I'm not sure that's such a great idea. He doesn't seem to

>want to 'reform' AA at all; in fact, he strikes me as a BB

>fundamentalist. The overall tone of his site *seems* reasonable, but

>he's clearly a committed AA member. Despite his assertion that he

>thinks people should be free to seek other options I don't think he's

>going to want to sit back and read posts about how AA has harmed

>people on this list without offering AA-based advice or commentary.

>

>If anyone here is still going to meetings, but has begun questioning

>the AA doctrine, that's not a big deal. But Jeff isn't questioning

>the AA doctrine at all--not the BB version. If he's trying

>to 'reform' AA it's actually an attempt to purge meetings of anything

>not explicitly stated in the BB, rather than question the glaring

>flaws in the BB itself. He takes no issue with anything in the BB--

>not the erroneous, outdated assumptions; the insulting chapters to

>wives and atheists; or the overtly Christian nature of the Higher

>Power.

>

>There's been enough conflict between AA supporters and members of

>this group--I think to invite Jeff to join us would only create more.

>

>Cheers,

>.

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Never in my life have I seen an unsubscribed member post so much.

Surely you are worthy of a place in the Guiness Book.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

ALREADY!!!

DH

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON WEB!

>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:05:52 -0700

>

>At 07:38 26/05/00 -0700, you wrote:

> >Please do NOT invite him. Please. It seems to me like inviting trouble

>that

> >we don't need. Surely we can find non-AAers to populate 12sf.

> >

> >Judith

>

>

>I go along with that.

>

>Seems like we have enough people here to have a discussion already!

>

>

>

>Joe B.

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

At 07:38 26/05/00 -0700, you wrote:

>Please do NOT invite him. Please. It seems to me like inviting trouble that

>we don't need. Surely we can find non-AAers to populate 12sf.

>

>Judith

I go along with that.

Seems like we have enough people here to have a discussion already!

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Hi hector

Yes, I noticed this and commented on it when I wrote him. He admitted

it sounds very cultish.

Best,

P.

> Step away from the keyboard you.

>

> What did you do to Pete? Answer up partner we ain't got all night.

>

> Curious. Did you note the drug abuser reform AA connection?.

>

> Jeff of the site linked below said:

>

> " But when it comes to recovery from alcoholism in AA, it made a big

> difference INSIDE of me, (where that damned thirst likes to sleep),

> when I truly joined WITH you, instead of merely join you. "

>

> This was his quote after finally dropping the and addict after the

> I'm an Alcoholic bit. He noted he was receiving weird looks

whenever

> he admitted he was an addict. He speaks of it in terms one might

> describe as almost an epiphany when he finally decided to join them.

> (borg) couldn't resist

>

> I'm attempting not to judge here but it sounds rather like a belated

> justification for his capitulation to the rewms.

>

>

> STOP PRESS: SANE AA MEMBER FOUND ON

WEB!

>

> Hi All

>

> I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

>

> http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

>

> This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> well

> be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in reforming

> AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a post

of

> mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him here?????

>

> P.

[Guest guest]

Hi charlene all,

I have NOT invited Jeff here - my comment to that was in very large

part tongue in cheek!

P.

>

> > Hi All

> >

> > I suggest everybody ( you too Mike ) take a look at this site:

> >

> > http://home.earthlink.net/~jeff24aat/index.html

> >

> > This guy is the most reasonable AA I've ever come across, and may

> > well

> > be someone worth talking to. He's definitely interested in

reforming

> > AA to soemthing a lot more palatable. He's asked to include a

post of

> > mine on his site, and I've agreed. How about I invite him

here?????

> >

> > P.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________________

> Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

>

>

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