Re: Symbols more real than reality to nada?

[Guest guest]

my nada always wants pictures of my pets, not because she loves them or me,

but because aquantiences always ask about them, and she is the center of

attention when she has pictures to show everyone at the bank or post office

or grocery store, or....when I asked her what she does with the photos, she

said after she shows them to everyone, she throws them away !! when I

didn't send any for a while, she'd call and yell at me that she hadn't

gotten any new pictures for a long time...when I said what's the point if

you throw them away? so she then started giving them back to me...

I think most times, the soppy greeting cards are to pull you back in..she

pushes you away with her words/actions, then pulls you back saying how much

she loves you...like you, I've mirrored her words/actions right back at her,

and yes, she gets very angry and pretends to be hurt...

Jackie

I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly to

their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots

and lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly,

there is a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then

lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in

her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how

hateful she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not

do it again everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile,

and damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's

exact words back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she

never said that in the first place.)

Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really

matter if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only

matters how I respond to it.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

>Nada shows her love to me and my family through soppy cards and over the top

presents. I get so sick of the big verses in the card and her asking a million

times if I liked the present.

I have told her time and time again that I feel uncomfortable with the expensive

gifts and don't want my daughter spoilt either. That we would rather her spend

quality time and do outings to the park or movies or just play with her without

having to take her shopping and spending money.

I use to feel ungrateful but thanks to learning of Bpd I realise the motive and

that it is ok to say what I have said in the past. Last visit she took our

daughter shopping I told Nada not to buy her another doll as she has so many.

Surprise surprise guess what she came home with???????

I use to get angry and say something then a fight would break out. So for many

years before LC I said nothing and bit my tongue because I knew she would be

gone soon and I only had to put up with her for a short visit.

Also the photos that she has to have to show others, I related to as well. Seems

Nada tries to buy our love but doesn't know how to show it in normal ways.

Generally it is thrown back in my face how much she has given me when we ever

argue.

She never says sorry for her actions or hurt towards me. She still just sends

another parcel.

Drives me nuts.

Kazam

> my nada always wants pictures of my pets, not because she loves them or me,

> but because aquantiences always ask about them, and she is the center of

> attention when she has pictures to show everyone at the bank or post office

> or grocery store, or....when I asked her what she does with the photos, she

> said after she shows them to everyone, she throws them away !! when I

> didn't send any for a while, she'd call and yell at me that she hadn't

> gotten any new pictures for a long time...when I said what's the point if

> you throw them away? so she then started giving them back to me...

>

> I think most times, the soppy greeting cards are to pull you back in..she

> pushes you away with her words/actions, then pulls you back saying how much

> she loves you...like you, I've mirrored her words/actions right back at her,

> and yes, she gets very angry and pretends to be hurt...

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly to

> their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots

> and lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly,

> there is a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then

> lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

>

> So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in

> her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how

> hateful she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not

> do it again everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

>

> Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile,

> and damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's

> exact words back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she

> never said that in the first place.)

>

> Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

> pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really

> matter if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only

> matters how I respond to it.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

I think you are onto something Annie, with the connection between the sappy

cards and lavish gifts and the disconnect to how nadas behave. This has been

bothering me lately, as occasionally my nada will give me some really

extravagant gift and it is making me feel guilty for saying and thinking bad

things about her. Same with the sappy cards. Both feel weird and " icky " just

like when I hug her.

I think it is all part of the " good mother " facade. It builds up her false

identity of being the great mother who sacrifices so much for her daughters -

and at the same time she probably knows it will make me feel guilty and like I

have to be nice to her for a while.

Even better if I have to actually go out with her to buy whatever it is, because

it buys her time with me - which can turn into endless time because once she is

shopping it's like a time warp, that lady can literally shop forever (In an

unrelated note, I remember being stuck in stores with her when I was really

young until literally the store was closing and the lights were going off).

I have decided to put my foot down this year - no Christmas presents. I think I

have to stop the gift-giving to feel free from her warped grasp.

>

> I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly to

their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots and

lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is

a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then lavishing

expensive presents or money on the KO.

>

> So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in her

mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how hateful

she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not do it again

everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

>

> Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile, and

damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's exact words

back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

the first place.)

>

> Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really matter

if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only matters how I

respond to it.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

" Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really matter if

I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only matters how I

respond to it. "

YATZEE!

Jen

>

> I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly to

their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots and

lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is

a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then lavishing

expensive presents or money on the KO.

>

> So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in her

mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how hateful

she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not do it again

everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

>

> Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile, and

damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's exact words

back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

the first place.)

>

> Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really matter

if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only matters how I

respond to it.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

My nada does this also. Gives lots of gifts and much of the time for me the

gifts aren't anything I like. She made a big deal about Christmas every

year but not in a good way. She'd get depressed and angry and pretty much

make it miserable for everyone especially if my father would curtail the

spending. I remember he gave her like a grand for each person (3 kids, the

2 of them, my godmother god sister, god brother and my BPDex).

She was unhappy because it wasn't enough!! Good lord, I was hip deep in

wrapping paper. I also got hassled for weeks to give her a list to buy

from, it always hurt my feelings because she didn't know me well enough to

buy anything I liked??? She didn't pay attention that I love dragons, or

wolves or books and other things? And I know I'd mention it to her but her

excuse was I never go shopping with her so she doesn't know what to get.

If I don't give her a list she gets me lame things but will spend most my

money on the siblings or did. Especially my sister who she feels so much

guilt over and my brother who is the golden child.

Last year, before the divorce there was very little money so we all agreed

to do a secret Santa. I loved it and I think most everyone did too! We

didn't have to try and compete and buy everyone gifts we couldn't afford.

She was unhappy and miserable the entire season.

It just makes me so sad.

My son's first birthday last year she gave him so many gifts, as if she has

to outdo everyone else there? He didn't know what to do with half of it. I

don't want him spoiled either and why not, if she has to spend that money,

use it to build up a college fund for him or something?

Whenever we fight she tries to buy her way back in.. I always refuse but

she's good at the guilt thing. I cut her off more this year than ever and

now we are NC and yet she still tries to " help " . I had to get my phone

changed to my dad's service so she'd not be able to pay for it.

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of aksilver21

Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 6:17 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Symbols more real than reality to nada?

I think you are onto something Annie, with the connection between the sappy

cards and lavish gifts and the disconnect to how nadas behave. This has been

bothering me lately, as occasionally my nada will give me some really

extravagant gift and it is making me feel guilty for saying and thinking bad

things about her. Same with the sappy cards. Both feel weird and " icky " just

like when I hug her.

I think it is all part of the " good mother " facade. It builds up her false

identity of being the great mother who sacrifices so much for her daughters

- and at the same time she probably knows it will make me feel guilty and

like I have to be nice to her for a while.

Even better if I have to actually go out with her to buy whatever it is,

because it buys her time with me - which can turn into endless time because

once she is shopping it's like a time warp, that lady can literally shop

forever (In an unrelated note, I remember being stuck in stores with her

when I was really young until literally the store was closing and the lights

were going off).

I have decided to put my foot down this year - no Christmas presents. I

think I have to stop the gift-giving to feel free from her warped grasp.

>

> I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly

to their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots

and lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly,

there is a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then

lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

>

> So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in

her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how

hateful she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not

do it again everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

>

> Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile,

and damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's

exact words back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she

never said that in the first place.)

>

> Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers

is pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really

matter if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only

matters how I respond to it.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Do you think maybe there's some sort of disconnect in their brains, so that they

think sending a soppy card is the appropriate response to our NC/LC or anger? I

mean, maybe they just really can't figure out how to " make it better, " then they

see a Hallmark commercial on TV and decide it might be the " normal " thing to do.

They can't bring themselves to stop hurting us, but the people in the Hallmark

commercials seem to have very loving, appreciative relationships, so maybe Nada

thinks that's the way into our hearts?

It's like expecting your family Christmas to look just like the winter Macy's

catalog - lots of pretty, well-dressed people exchanging beautifully wrapped

gifts, instead of the real, grungy family members who show up late with bad

gifts wrapped in newspaper and masking tape. You're sure to be disappointed, but

that idealized image has a lot of staying power. -

>

> my nada always wants pictures of my pets, not because she loves them or me,

> but because aquantiences always ask about them, and she is the center of

> attention when she has pictures to show everyone at the bank or post office

> or grocery store, or....when I asked her what she does with the photos, she

> said after she shows them to everyone, she throws them away !! when I

> didn't send any for a while, she'd call and yell at me that she hadn't

> gotten any new pictures for a long time...when I said what's the point if

> you throw them away? so she then started giving them back to me...

>

> I think most times, the soppy greeting cards are to pull you back in..she

> pushes you away with her words/actions, then pulls you back saying how much

> she loves you...like you, I've mirrored her words/actions right back at her,

> and yes, she gets very angry and pretends to be hurt...

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly to

> their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots

> and lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly,

> there is a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then

> lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

>

> So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in

> her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how

> hateful she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not

> do it again everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

>

> Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile,

> and damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's

> exact words back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she

> never said that in the first place.)

>

> Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

> pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really

> matter if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only

> matters how I respond to it.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

my nada is witch/queen, so others with other types may interpret this

differently. I'm not so sure they actually want to make it better, as I

don't think they think they did anything wrong. I know they don't want us

to leave them, so I see the soppy card as a hoover device to try and keep us

sucked into them...they know we're angry, or fear we may be( and heaven only

knows why that may be) then send a soppy card, because WE'RE supposed to be

moved by the card, not because they are feeling sorry/guilty. I think they

always view themselves as right ...my nadas idea of perfect changes, so we'd

never know from one day to the next what she expected...and she'd get nasty

over the smallest thing, or nothing at all, like she wanted to fight, so

she could blame the failure of yet another holiday on my attitude, or

because I blah blah blah...

Jackie

Do you think maybe there's some sort of disconnect in their brains, so that

they think sending a soppy card is the appropriate response to our NC/LC or

anger? I mean, maybe they just really can't figure out how to " make it

better, " then they see a Hallmark commercial on TV and decide it might be

the " normal " thing to do. They can't bring themselves to stop hurting us,

but the people in the Hallmark commercials seem to have very loving,

appreciative relationships, so maybe Nada thinks that's the way into our

hearts?

It's like expecting your family Christmas to look just like the winter

Macy's catalog - lots of pretty, well-dressed people exchanging beautifully

wrapped gifts, instead of the real, grungy family members who show up late

with bad gifts wrapped in newspaper and masking tape. You're sure to be

disappointed, but that idealized image has a lot of staying power. -

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I think you're right about this stuff. I think my nada goes

even further with symbols. I think my sister and I are somehow

symbols of daughters rather than real daughters to nada. It is

like she's playing a board game and we're the cards marked

" daughter " that she can play at the appropriate places in the

game. When we don't react the way she thinks the game should go,

that's when she gets angry. When we aren't happy with her and

she wants to get on our good side again, she thinks she can play

the " apology " card or the " gift " card and we should

automatically get over whatever it was she did, like the " get

out of jail free " card in the Monopoly game.

At 03:25 PM 08/18/2009 anuria67854 wrote:

>I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave

>horribly to their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting

>cards, and require lots and lots of photographs of their

>children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is a

>disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and

>then lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

>

>So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad

>behavior, in her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about

>apologies; no matter how hateful she's been, she believes that

>if she apologizes and promises to not do it again everything is

>set back to zero and she's off the hook.

>

>Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is

>destructive, hostile, and damaging; but that doesn't make sense

>because if I mirror my nada's exact words back to her, she

>finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

>the first place.)

>

>Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill

>brain of hers is pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to

>think. It doesn't really matter if I understand exactly why

>she does the things she does, it only matters how I respond to

>it.

>

>-Annie

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Could be. My theory is that bpds, like narcissists, don't have the capacity to

feel empathy. Can't do it; their empathy-wiring is fried.

If my nada could genuinely put herself in another person's position and feel as

they feel, she wouldn't have done most of the horrible things she's done to

Sister and dad and me over the decades.

I think my nada learned to mimic the outward, symbolic gestures of love, but

because she's mimicking something she doesn't really understand or feel, it

comes out oddly or at the wrong time and feels insincere, etc.

Its like the real internal feelings and behaviors of love are a foreign language

to my nada, so she uses the " handy phrase book " of symbolic gestures instead

(cards, gifts, etc.) to get by. I don't know; but I agree that there is some

really big disconnect going on somehow, somewhere in that bpd brain.

-Annie

> >

> > my nada always wants pictures of my pets, not because she loves them or me,

> > but because aquantiences always ask about them, and she is the center of

> > attention when she has pictures to show everyone at the bank or post office

> > or grocery store, or....when I asked her what she does with the photos, she

> > said after she shows them to everyone, she throws them away !! when I

> > didn't send any for a while, she'd call and yell at me that she hadn't

> > gotten any new pictures for a long time...when I said what's the point if

> > you throw them away? so she then started giving them back to me...

> >

> > I think most times, the soppy greeting cards are to pull you back in..she

> > pushes you away with her words/actions, then pulls you back saying how much

> > she loves you...like you, I've mirrored her words/actions right back at her,

> > and yes, she gets very angry and pretends to be hurt...

> >

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly to

> > their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require lots

> > and lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren. Similarly,

> > there is a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and then

> > lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

> >

> > So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior, in

> > her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how

> > hateful she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to not

> > do it again everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

> >

> > Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive, hostile,

> > and damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's

> > exact words back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she

> > never said that in the first place.)

> >

> > Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers is

> > pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really

> > matter if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only

> > matters how I respond to it.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I like that board-game-with-cards analogy a lot; we're not even real people,

we're just symbols of things she's supposed to have, game pieces that she plays

with. Really insightful, that. And really shading over into the narcissistic pd

realm, as well.

-Annie

> >I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave

> >horribly to their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting

> >cards, and require lots and lots of photographs of their

> >children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is a

> >disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and

> >then lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

> >

> >So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad

> >behavior, in her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about

> >apologies; no matter how hateful she's been, she believes that

> >if she apologizes and promises to not do it again everything is

> >set back to zero and she's off the hook.

> >

> >Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is

> >destructive, hostile, and damaging; but that doesn't make sense

> >because if I mirror my nada's exact words back to her, she

> >finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

> >the first place.)

> >

> >Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill

> >brain of hers is pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to

> >think. It doesn't really matter if I understand exactly why

> >she does the things she does, it only matters how I respond to

> >it.

> >

> >-Annie

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

My nada think she's an empath.

I agree with Annie. =)

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of anuria67854

Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 10:08 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Symbols more real than reality to nada?

Could be. My theory is that bpds, like narcissists, don't have the capacity

to feel empathy. Can't do it; their empathy-wiring is fried.

If my nada could genuinely put herself in another person's position and feel

as they feel, she wouldn't have done most of the horrible things she's done

to Sister and dad and me over the decades.

I think my nada learned to mimic the outward, symbolic gestures of love, but

because she's mimicking something she doesn't really understand or feel, it

comes out oddly or at the wrong time and feels insincere, etc.

Its like the real internal feelings and behaviors of love are a foreign

language to my nada, so she uses the " handy phrase book " of symbolic

gestures instead (cards, gifts, etc.) to get by. I don't know; but I agree

that there is some really big disconnect going on somehow, somewhere in that

bpd brain.

-Annie

> >

> > my nada always wants pictures of my pets, not because she loves them or

me,

> > but because aquantiences always ask about them, and she is the center of

> > attention when she has pictures to show everyone at the bank or post

office

> > or grocery store, or....when I asked her what she does with the photos,

she

> > said after she shows them to everyone, she throws them away !! when I

> > didn't send any for a while, she'd call and yell at me that she hadn't

> > gotten any new pictures for a long time...when I said what's the point

if

> > you throw them away? so she then started giving them back to me...

> >

> > I think most times, the soppy greeting cards are to pull you back

in..she

> > pushes you away with her words/actions, then pulls you back saying how

much

> > she loves you...like you, I've mirrored her words/actions right back at

her,

> > and yes, she gets very angry and pretends to be hurt...

> >

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave horribly

to

> > their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting cards, and require

lots

> > and lots of photographs of their children and/or grandchildren.

Similarly,

> > there is a disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and

then

> > lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

> >

> > So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad behavior,

in

> > her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about apologies; no matter how

> > hateful she's been, she believes that if she apologizes and promises to

not

> > do it again everything is set back to zero and she's off the hook.

> >

> > Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is destructive,

hostile,

> > and damaging; but that doesn't make sense because if I mirror my nada's

> > exact words back to her, she finds them very hurtful (while claiming she

> > never said that in the first place.)

> >

> > Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill brain of hers

is

> > pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to think. It doesn't really

> > matter if I understand exactly why she does the things she does, it only

> > matters how I respond to it.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, they don't feel empathy for anyone, but what stops them

from being equally nasty to outsiders ?? My nada is never EVER nasty to

outsiders...she's only nasty to her kids and husband...

Jackie

Could be. My theory is that bpds, like narcissists, don't have the capacity

to feel empathy. Can't do it; their empathy-wiring is fried.

If my nada could genuinely put herself in another person's position and feel

as they feel, she wouldn't have done most of the horrible things she's done

to Sister and dad and me over the decades.

I think my nada learned to mimic the outward, symbolic gestures of love, but

because she's mimicking something she doesn't really understand or feel, it

comes out oddly or at the wrong time and feels insincere, etc.

Its like the real internal feelings and behaviors of love are a foreign

language to my nada, so she uses the " handy phrase book " of symbolic

gestures instead (cards, gifts, etc.) to get by. I don't know; but I agree

that there is some really big disconnect going on somehow, somewhere in that

bpd brain.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

I think its because they don't feel safe showing their nasty behaviors to

outsiders. A neighbor or a church friend would be shocked, might attack them

back, and might talk about them so that others would shun them.

Plus, my nada (who has a lot of narcissistic traits) feels the need to present

this perfect-appearing front to the world. Showing her mean, critical,

unpleasable, vindictive behaviors to outsiders would shatter that facade.

But they've trained *us* to " take it " and not fight back, and not talk to others

about the abuse, so we're " safe " to treat any way they want. Plus, my nada

believes that no matter what she does to us, we " have to " love her anyway, like

we owe it to her.

-Annie

>

> I agree with you, they don't feel empathy for anyone, but what stops them

> from being equally nasty to outsiders ?? My nada is never EVER nasty to

> outsiders...she's only nasty to her kids and husband...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Could be. My theory is that bpds, like narcissists, don't have the capacity

> to feel empathy. Can't do it; their empathy-wiring is fried.

>

> If my nada could genuinely put herself in another person's position and feel

> as they feel, she wouldn't have done most of the horrible things she's done

> to Sister and dad and me over the decades.

>

> I think my nada learned to mimic the outward, symbolic gestures of love, but

> because she's mimicking something she doesn't really understand or feel, it

> comes out oddly or at the wrong time and feels insincere, etc.

>

> Its like the real internal feelings and behaviors of love are a foreign

> language to my nada, so she uses the " handy phrase book " of symbolic

> gestures instead (cards, gifts, etc.) to get by. I don't know; but I agree

> that there is some really big disconnect going on somehow, somewhere in that

> bpd brain.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

yes, eveything you're said is true of my nada as well, so it makes sense, in

a warped way LOL I guess I just have to get used to thinking like they do

in order to understand..

Jackie

I think its because they don't feel safe showing their nasty behaviors to

outsiders. A neighbor or a church friend would be shocked, might attack

them back, and might talk about them so that others would shun them.

Plus, my nada (who has a lot of narcissistic traits) feels the need to

present this perfect-appearing front to the world. Showing her mean,

critical, unpleasable, vindictive behaviors to outsiders would shatter that

facade.

But they've trained *us* to " take it " and not fight back, and not talk to

others about the abuse, so we're " safe " to treat any way they want. Plus,

my nada believes that no matter what she does to us, we " have to " love her

anyway, like we owe it to her.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

I think you might be right about nadas seeing us as symbols. I used to think

that nada saw me as an extension of herself, but now I'm not so sure. I think

she defines people based on a tag or a role she assigns to them. " Daughter " has

a definition for her as does " mother " therefore I am expected to act accordingly

by that definition. Just as " husband " or " friend " all mean different things to

her. People with those tags are expected to behave a certain way in her world.

When behavior/thoughts/words don't fit the definition, nada doesn't know what to

do. As someone once said " DOES NOT COMPUTE! " . She takes it very peronsally and

in return, she strikes back in an attempt to make these people fit the

definition sbe has defined for them. If anger, bullying, pleading, manipulating

or rage don't work, she tries threats. If that doesn't work, she goes through

her whole arsenal until the person falls back in line. If none of that works,

then the person is painted black and banned from her crazy BP world.

I think the definitions are also influenced by what other people do and say. The

definitions are fluid and always changing which is why it is impossible to deal

with her. For example, nada's friend talks to all her children every day.

Therefore " daughter " i.e. me is expected to call or speak with " mom " i.e. nada

every day too. Or, nada's friend visits her son for 3 months. Therefore " mom "

must visit daughter for three months. " Friend " goes shopping with daughter and

buys fancy new sketcher sneakers, therefore nada must go shopping with daughter

and buy fancy new sketcher sneakers.

The more I work through issues and work on me, the more I realize how truly

complicated this whole situation is. There are so many layers to all of this

that I have given up trying to figure her out.

Abby

> >I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave

> >horribly to their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting

> >cards, and require lots and lots of photographs of their

> >children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is a

> >disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and

> >then lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

> >

> >So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad

> >behavior, in her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about

> >apologies; no matter how hateful she's been, she believes that

> >if she apologizes and promises to not do it again everything is

> >set back to zero and she's off the hook.

> >

> >Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is

> >destructive, hostile, and damaging; but that doesn't make sense

> >because if I mirror my nada's exact words back to her, she

> >finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

> >the first place.)

> >

> >Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill

> >brain of hers is pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to

> >think. It doesn't really matter if I understand exactly why

> >she does the things she does, it only matters how I respond to

> >it.

> >

> >-Annie

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

Insight from therapy:....the outsiders and friends don't really matter because

it is all about the BPs sense of abandonment and people leaving them. They know

their friends and other people will come and go. They are not invested in them.

The problem is with immediate family. They do what they do to so we won't leave

them. In reality, they don't know they are doing the opposite - driving us away.

When you toss in the fact that appearances are everything to a BP, it gets VERY

complicated.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I agree with you, they don't feel empathy for anyone, but what stops them

> > from being equally nasty to outsiders ?? My nada is never EVER nasty to

> > outsiders...she's only nasty to her kids and husband...

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > Could be. My theory is that bpds, like narcissists, don't have the capacity

> > to feel empathy. Can't do it; their empathy-wiring is fried.

> >

> > If my nada could genuinely put herself in another person's position and feel

> > as they feel, she wouldn't have done most of the horrible things she's done

> > to Sister and dad and me over the decades.

> >

> > I think my nada learned to mimic the outward, symbolic gestures of love, but

> > because she's mimicking something she doesn't really understand or feel, it

> > comes out oddly or at the wrong time and feels insincere, etc.

> >

> > Its like the real internal feelings and behaviors of love are a foreign

> > language to my nada, so she uses the " handy phrase book " of symbolic

> > gestures instead (cards, gifts, etc.) to get by. I don't know; but I agree

> > that there is some really big disconnect going on somehow, somewhere in that

> > bpd brain.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

yeah it is very confusing !! If I want my husband to stay, I will be as

nice, sweet to him as I possibly can, and will do all kinds of nice things

for him...I would NOT insult him, belittle him, tell him how disappointed I

am in him,..compare him with my friends husbands and say why can't he be

like them ...I wouldn't tell him he looks fat, his hair cut looks stupid...

Jackie

Insight from therapy:....the outsiders and friends don't really matter

because it is all about the BPs sense of abandonment and people leaving

them. They know their friends and other people will come and go. They are

not invested in them. The problem is with immediate family. They do what

they do to so we won't leave them. In reality, they don't know they are

doing the opposite - driving us away. When you toss in the fact that

appearances are everything to a BP, it gets VERY complicated.

[Guest guest]

I wonder that too...nada has always said she treated us normally...yet, she

has never raged in public, and she has never hit us, pulled our hair or

degraded us in public...that always waited until we got to the car...

Jackie

>

> I think their expectations are different for us than they are

> for outsiders. We're supposed to " love " them and thus do

> whatever they want. Outsiders aren't expected to act that way,

> so when they don't, it isn't seen as a betrayal. My nada does

> sometimes get nasty with people she doesn't believe she has any

> kind of close relationship with, but the level of nastyness

> involved is usually noticably lower than she shows to people she

> is supposed to care about. I'm not sure whether she has an issue

> with being afraid of showing outsiders her nastyness or not. She

> claims that there's nothing wrong with the way she treats us. If

> she really believes that, there's no reason for her to be afraid

> of others seeing that behavior. I'm not sure whether there's

> something deep inside her that knows she's doing wrong or not.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am fairly certain that nada used to see me as an extension of herself and

hasn't even attempted to hide the disappointment in the fact that I have turned

out no where close to that. This in turn leads to her ever popular saying of

" You are not the daughter I raised. " Nada is simply so set in this " daughter "

definition that I clearly do not fit. There is simply no plausible way for her

to redefine or reshape the " daughter " mold to accompany the actual daughter she

does have. And because I am not fitting this mold, I am not only rejected by

nada, but wrong, according to nada everything I do is WRONG. Not different,

WRONG.

I completely agree with the idea that these definitions of " daughter " and

" mother " are influenced by outside sources. Last night nada and I were watching

t.v. and we happened to watch a tender interaction between an obviously close

mother and daughter. The daughter continued to say that her mother was her best

friend and my nada almost broke into tears out of frustation. I had to leave the

room.

The worst part is that I crave her acceptance. I understand this is positively

ridiculous because her expectations are miles away from reality, but I can't

help it. BP or not, nada is my mother and a certain amount of affection, or

anything other than rejection, would be nice.

-Jenn

>

> I think you might be right about nadas seeing us as symbols. I used to think

that nada saw me as an extension of herself, but now I'm not so sure. I think

she defines people based on a tag or a role she assigns to them. " Daughter " has

a definition for her as does " mother " therefore I am expected to act accordingly

by that definition. Just as " husband " or " friend " all mean different things to

her. People with those tags are expected to behave a certain way in her world.

When behavior/thoughts/words don't fit the definition, nada doesn't know what to

do. As someone once said " DOES NOT COMPUTE! " . She takes it very peronsally and

in return, she strikes back in an attempt to make these people fit the

definition sbe has defined for them. If anger, bullying, pleading, manipulating

or rage don't work, she tries threats. If that doesn't work, she goes through

her whole arsenal until the person falls back in line. If none of that works,

then the person is painted black and banned from her crazy BP world.

>

> I think the definitions are also influenced by what other people do and say.

The definitions are fluid and always changing which is why it is impossible to

deal with her. For example, nada's friend talks to all her children every day.

Therefore " daughter " i.e. me is expected to call or speak with " mom " i.e. nada

every day too. Or, nada's friend visits her son for 3 months. Therefore " mom "

must visit daughter for three months. " Friend " goes shopping with daughter and

buys fancy new sketcher sneakers, therefore nada must go shopping with daughter

and buy fancy new sketcher sneakers.

>

> The more I work through issues and work on me, the more I realize how truly

complicated this whole situation is. There are so many layers to all of this

that I have given up trying to figure her out.

>

> Abby

>

>

>

>

> > >I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave

> > >horribly to their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting

> > >cards, and require lots and lots of photographs of their

> > >children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is a

> > >disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and

> > >then lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

> > >

> > >So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad

> > >behavior, in her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about

> > >apologies; no matter how hateful she's been, she believes that

> > >if she apologizes and promises to not do it again everything is

> > >set back to zero and she's off the hook.

> > >

> > >Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is

> > >destructive, hostile, and damaging; but that doesn't make sense

> > >because if I mirror my nada's exact words back to her, she

> > >finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

> > >the first place.)

> > >

> > >Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill

> > >brain of hers is pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to

> > >think. It doesn't really matter if I understand exactly why

> > >she does the things she does, it only matters how I respond to

> > >it.

> > >

> > >-Annie

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I completely agree. Bp's simply do not have the capacity for any form of empathy

whatsoever, and I had to laugh in reading this because my nada always twists a

conversation into my incapacity for empathy. This is simply wrong.

1. I DO have empathy.

2. Via this empathy I recognize how ridiculous your viewpoint is and contradict

it.

3. This IS NOT a lack of empathy.

4. You would know this if you had any.

That is possibly the most frustrating part of the relationship between my nada

and I . I feel like I cannot communicate any form of emotion that may contradict

how she feels because a contradiction in not computable in any way, shape, or

form. I have so much difficulty understanding how that could be.

Could be. My theory is that bpds, like narcissists, don't have the capacity

> > > to feel empathy. Can't do it; their empathy-wiring is fried.

> > >

> > > If my nada could genuinely put herself in another person's position and

feel

> > > as they feel, she wouldn't have done most of the horrible things she's

done

> > > to Sister and dad and me over the decades.

> > >

> > > I think my nada learned to mimic the outward, symbolic gestures of love,

but

> > > because she's mimicking something she doesn't really understand or feel,

it

> > > comes out oddly or at the wrong time and feels insincere, etc.

> > >

> > > Its like the real internal feelings and behaviors of love are a foreign

> > > language to my nada, so she uses the " handy phrase book " of symbolic

> > > gestures instead (cards, gifts, etc.) to get by. I don't know; but I

agree

> > > that there is some really big disconnect going on somehow, somewhere in

that

> > > bpd brain.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> > >I seem to see a thread of continuity regarding nadas who behave

> > >horribly to their children and yet send soppy, sweet greeting

> > >cards, and require lots and lots of photographs of their

> > >children and/or grandchildren. Similarly, there is a

> > >disconnect between the horrible behavior towards the KO and

> > >then lavishing expensive presents or money on the KO.

> > >

> > >So for nada, perhaps the cards and gifts " cancel out " her bad

> > >behavior, in her mind? Mine certainly feels that way about

> > >apologies; no matter how hateful she's been, she believes that

> > >if she apologizes and promises to not do it again everything is

> > >set back to zero and she's off the hook.

> > >

> > >Perhaps nadas don't perceive that their behavior is

> > >destructive, hostile, and damaging; but that doesn't make sense

> > >because if I mirror my nada's exact words back to her, she

> > >finds them very hurtful (while claiming she never said that in

> > >the first place.)

> > >

> > >Trying to figure out what is going on in that mentally ill

> > >brain of hers is pretty much a waste of time, I'm beginning to

> > >think. It doesn't really matter if I understand exactly why

> > >she does the things she does, it only matters how I respond to

> > >it.

> > >

> > >-Annie

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That's why personality disorder is such an incredibly frustrating condition to

try and understand. Its easier to understand true psychosis, people like

schizophrenics who are out of contact with reality a lot of the time: there is

clearly something badly wrong with an individual with schizophrenia.

Individuals with personality disorders have a lot more volition over how they

behave; they have the ability to choose how to act whether they're having

disturbed feelings at the moment or not. Thus, nada *can* and *does* hold back

her rage in public and she waits until she's alone with the kids and safely

private before she beats the crap out of them.

And, RE a different post, I have to express my opinion that the therapist who

says " everyone has bpd tendencies " and " bpd is a more extreme version of normal "

is just plain wrong.

I realize that other people may believe differently, but I felt the need to put

the opposing view out there as well.

I think bpd and the other Cluster B pds are a profoundly and fundamentally

different state of being than " normal, because I think bpd and the other Cluster

B pds *lack* certain core human traits, among them lack of empathy. I think

that normal, mentally healthy people experience empathy for other people and

that my nada can't.

My nada also lacks a sense of her own self-hood, like she's just skin wrapped

around a big, empty, unfillable, starving hole.

My nada lacks the ability to interpret other people's emotions and intentions

correctly most of the time, as though they are speaking a foreign language that

she doesn't understand: she only gets a few words here and there, and then she

patches those few words together and interprets them negatively. This

" emotional deafness " isn't " normal. "

When I end up spending any length of time around my nada, it begins striking me

how just, well, *alien* her thought processes are to me.

So bizarre, negative, eager to find fault, wishing to be superior, etc. I don't

think most people are like that at all, most of the time, thank God.

-Annie

>

> I wonder that too...nada has always said she treated us normally...yet, she

> has never raged in public, and she has never hit us, pulled our hair or

> degraded us in public...that always waited until we got to the car...

>

> Jackie

> >

> > I think their expectations are different for us than they are

> > for outsiders. We're supposed to " love " them and thus do

> > whatever they want. Outsiders aren't expected to act that way,

> > so when they don't, it isn't seen as a betrayal. My nada does

> > sometimes get nasty with people she doesn't believe she has any

> > kind of close relationship with, but the level of nastyness

> > involved is usually noticably lower than she shows to people she

> > is supposed to care about. I'm not sure whether she has an issue

> > with being afraid of showing outsiders her nastyness or not. She

> > claims that there's nothing wrong with the way she treats us. If

> > she really believes that, there's no reason for her to be afraid

> > of others seeing that behavior. I'm not sure whether there's

> > something deep inside her that knows she's doing wrong or not.

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yah Annie - I'm sure I didn't explain that well at all. It was in the context of

me talking about my own emotions, how sometimes they felt so big, or how I tend

to black and white thinking, or have struggles with self identity, and those

kinds of things. I was saying " I think I'm BPD! " and she was reassuring me that

these struggles are normal. Everyone feels them to a degree. That's what I was

trying to convey (I think it was to Joy ???), that none of us are perfect and

some things we struggle with are similar to what we see in BPDs. It was more

about what we see within ourselves, not what we are lacking - as you so aptly

pointed out the compassion, etc that BPDs lack. Also, I'm sure that my

re-wording of the initial conversation lacks plenty ...

Thanks,

> And, RE a different post, I have to express my opinion that the therapist who

says " everyone has bpd tendencies " and " bpd is a more extreme version of normal "

is just plain wrong.

>

> I realize that other people may believe differently, but I felt the need to

put the opposing view out there as well.

>

> I think bpd and the other Cluster B pds are a profoundly and fundamentally

different state of being than " normal, because I think bpd and the other Cluster

B pds *lack* certain core human traits, among them lack of empathy. I think

that normal, mentally healthy people experience empathy for other people and

that my nada can't.

>

> My nada also lacks a sense of her own self-hood, like she's just skin wrapped

around a big, empty, unfillable, starving hole.

>

> My nada lacks the ability to interpret other people's emotions and intentions

correctly most of the time, as though they are speaking a foreign language that

she doesn't understand: she only gets a few words here and there, and then she

patches those few words together and interprets them negatively. This

" emotional deafness " isn't " normal. "

>

> When I end up spending any length of time around my nada, it begins striking

me how just, well, *alien* her thought processes are to me.

> So bizarre, negative, eager to find fault, wishing to be superior, etc. I

don't think most people are like that at all, most of the time, thank God.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Ah! OK, I can see what you're getting at: you were talking about the " fleas " :

the very abnormal behaviors that we were forced to accept as " normal " by our

nadas and subsequently modeled our own behaviors on (to some degree.) And I

agree that the struggle to shed ourselves of these unwanted, negative,

counterproductive " fleas " is unfortunately rather normal for us KOs. Sorry I

misunderstood what you intended.

Thanks!

-Annie

> > And, RE a different post, I have to express my opinion that the therapist

who says " everyone has bpd tendencies " and " bpd is a more extreme version of

normal " is just plain wrong.

> >

> > I realize that other people may believe differently, but I felt the need to

put the opposing view out there as well.

> >

> > I think bpd and the other Cluster B pds are a profoundly and fundamentally

different state of being than " normal, because I think bpd and the other Cluster

B pds *lack* certain core human traits, among them lack of empathy. I think

that normal, mentally healthy people experience empathy for other people and

that my nada can't.

> >

> > My nada also lacks a sense of her own self-hood, like she's just skin

wrapped around a big, empty, unfillable, starving hole.

> >

> > My nada lacks the ability to interpret other people's emotions and

intentions correctly most of the time, as though they are speaking a foreign

language that she doesn't understand: she only gets a few words here and there,

and then she patches those few words together and interprets them negatively.

This " emotional deafness " isn't " normal. "

> >

> > When I end up spending any length of time around my nada, it begins striking

me how just, well, *alien* her thought processes are to me.

> > So bizarre, negative, eager to find fault, wishing to be superior, etc. I

don't think most people are like that at all, most of the time, thank God.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Well, if you are going to apologize for my poor communication ... I'm gonna

bring you home with me!!!

; ]

Thanks, friend ~

> > > And, RE a different post, I have to express my opinion that the therapist

who says " everyone has bpd tendencies " and " bpd is a more extreme version of

normal " is just plain wrong.

> > >

> > > I realize that other people may believe differently, but I felt the need

to put the opposing view out there as well.

> > >

> > > I think bpd and the other Cluster B pds are a profoundly and fundamentally

different state of being than " normal, because I think bpd and the other Cluster

B pds *lack* certain core human traits, among them lack of empathy. I think

that normal, mentally healthy people experience empathy for other people and

that my nada can't.

> > >

> > > My nada also lacks a sense of her own self-hood, like she's just skin

wrapped around a big, empty, unfillable, starving hole.

> > >

> > > My nada lacks the ability to interpret other people's emotions and

intentions correctly most of the time, as though they are speaking a foreign

language that she doesn't understand: she only gets a few words here and there,

and then she patches those few words together and interprets them negatively.

This " emotional deafness " isn't " normal. "

> > >

> > > When I end up spending any length of time around my nada, it begins

striking me how just, well, *alien* her thought processes are to me.

> > > So bizarre, negative, eager to find fault, wishing to be superior, etc. I

don't think most people are like that at all, most of the time, thank God.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> >

>