Re: 911:: Wrong Address Ends in Tragedy

[Guest guest]

>I didn't see any finger pointing other then appropriately at the telephone

>companies. I'm surprised the 911 centers were not named even though they

>did nothing wrong.

The centers were named. County 911 took the call because the E911

database identified the number as a business in , CO. County

911 was the correct PSAP. Westminster (city) was also involved, when they

got the transfer from County, and had to make the final transfer to

County.

Yes, the finger pointing was not at the PSAPs, but between Comcast, AT & T,

and Intrado (the Comcast contractor responsible for verifying database

accuracy). No wrong doing is alleged against the centers. In fact, the

story mentioned that the County center followed the correct

procedure to fix the earlier address problem, but it was never done (by

Comcast).

[Guest guest]

Local Denver news has been good about stressing that the " dispatchers are not

being blamed " for any of this..

But I have to wonder, going back to the first " wrong " call, if it too went to

County, was a misroute form filled out and sent to Intrado (9-1-1

data base manager in Colorado). Walt, are you at liberty to comment?

Kathy

[Guest guest]

>But I have to wonder, going back to the first " wrong " call, if it too went to

> County, was a misroute form filled out and sent to Intrado (9-1-1

>data base manager in Colorado). Walt, are you at liberty to comment?

Kathy, the article said that a " report " [misroute form?] was made properly

by County. I am sure this will be important evidence in the

lawsuit. From the article:

" About a month before died, Staats called 911 to report a crime

and was first connected to County. Her address showed up as being

at First Data Corp. in . "

<snipped>

" Staats told a County dispatcher of the problem. The dispatcher

then forwarded the report to the proper place, Caplis said. But the address

change was never made. "

[Guest guest]

TC wrote:

>I find it interesting that this touches on one of our LT's biggest issues...

>we are told if we get a call that has been improperly routed to our agency

>from another PSAP we cannot route it again... we have to take the

>information and relay it to the correct agency ourselves (even though we may

>not ask the same questions the responding agency may ask and may not have

>the info they need to respond properly). I personally think that it is

>always best for the responding agency to speak directly to the caller but

>our LT disagrees and considers it poor public relations if we route the call

>again.

>

>Anyone else have similar policies?

>

>Tonya

>Albany, OR

>

>

We are the same way. Once a 911 call is transfered to us, we are not to

transfer it again, we are to get the info and pass it to the correct

agency. We get this all the time as cell 911 goes to the CHP (California

Highway Patrol). If they transfer a call to us thinking it is in the the

county area and we find it to be in the city, we have to get the info

and pass it on. Unfortunately this happens more than we would like.

One other thing, we always fill out a 911 misroute form whenever any

info on the ANI/ALI screen does not match the callers location exactly.

I have found more and more lately, you can not rely on the 911 info on

the screen as many people carry their cordless phones with them to the

neighbors house. They call 911 and you have their address, not the

location of where help is needed.

Mike

--

miked911@...

Mike Derryberry

Dispatcher II

Kern County Sheriff's Department

Bakersfield, CA

Listen to my department:

http://war.str3am.com:7300/

Listen to Kern County Scanning:

http://war.str3am.com:7460/ <-temporarily not working

or teamspeak://radio.scannerbuff.net:8767/

[Guest guest]

>...i have yet to see anything on any of these threads about why was the

dispatchers in all the centers that

took the call initially not verifying the address, and not just using

what was on the screen? did i miss something,<

The tapes will tell the tale in this lawsuit.

Was the woman so upset that she couldn't give a good

address and information?

Did the dispatcher use proper interrogation to insure

the correct agency was being dispatched, or just

rely on the technology?

Were proper protocols used in relaying the call?

The news story I read just doesn't give enough information

to know what REALLY happened.

On this type of call I just wouldn't use an automatic

relay... I'd want to talk to the dispatcher on the

other end.. make sure we all knew what was going

on.

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

At 02-10-04 03:10, you wrote:

>Was the woman so upset that she couldn't give a good

>address and information?

>

>Did the dispatcher use proper interrogation to insure

>the correct agency was being dispatched, or just

>rely on the technology?

One thing that puts a little responsibility on the caller is that she knew

her address had a previous problem. She should have realized she was again

talking to County, but maybe they do not answer with their name

(another discussion topic). If they did identify, she should have

explained the problem with her address, but I guess the emotion of the

situation was pretty high.

I agree with several comments that the call taker should have verbally

verified the address, so there may be some issue with the center. And I

learned something from Rich's comments. I never thought about someone

taking a cordless phone to another location.

[Guest guest]

I forgot to say in my last post that if County does not identify

when they answer, there may be an issue with them as well. I think that

all centers should identify, but I am calling the kettle black, because NYC

does not.

[Guest guest]

Just a question..how do you know that the LT is not a knowledgeable

civilian?

In my agency, I am a LT, and I am as civilian as the next. Just food for

thought.

Freida

La Vergne, TN

-----Original Message-----

.....I don't know how your agency is set up, but perhaps the LT should go LT

the street units and let a knowledgeable civilian run Communications....

Jim

Mr 911

TriCom

[Guest guest]

> 2...i have yet to see anything on any of these threads about why was the

> dispatchers in all the centers that

> took the call initially not verifying the address, and not just using

> what was on the screen? did i miss something,

> or if the address on the display was incorrect, causing the wrong

> routing, why was the proper address not

> being extracted from the informant and the dispatcher then call the

> correct agency accordingly?

>

Unless I am reading wrong, they did verify the address.....That is why she

was transferred so many times. The County people thought she was

in Westminster, a city, and the city people realized she wasn't and

transferred her to the other county, County if I remember correctly.

Mel

Melinda M

theclarkgirls@...

[Guest guest]

I've been working on a Map of our state (oregon) that outlines what areas of

the state are covered by which specific PSAP, I have never seen something

like this so thought it would be useful, I don't know why other states don't

have stuff like this. it would sure help when transferring a misrouted call

to the correct center!

As far as our center, we transfer the callers too. very rarely do we get

emergency calls that need to go beyond our region and risk the chance of

being misrouted.

Chris

Bend Oregon

_________________________________________________________________

Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to

School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx

[Guest guest]

At 02-10-04 15:59, you wrote:

>I've been working on a Map of our state (oregon) that outlines what areas of

>the state are covered by which specific PSAP, I have never seen something

>like this so thought it would be useful, I don't know why other states don't

>have stuff like this. ...

The NENA PSAP registry has (or will have) this kind of information.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I forgot to say in my last post that if County does not identify

> when they answer, there may be an issue with them as well. I think that

> all centers should identify, but I am calling the kettle black, because

> NYC

> does not.

Oh, I totally agree. Living in an area, as I do, with many, many agencies

within a small area, we often get calls intended for other agencies (cell

phone calls, I'm talking.) It irks me when others I work with don't

identify our agency, and especially since it's in the calltaking procedures.

There are a few callers who will listen to what you say when you answer,

and then ask you for the right department.

Chris

Burlington, KY

[Guest guest]

I disagree, that callers listen to what you say and I base this on the response

I get when answer the person, they respond with is this 9-1-1???? yes well I

need to get the phone number to Hilton hotel

Just my opinion

Tom

ECI

[Guest guest]

It is really interesting being on the receiving end of this discussion, although

I lurk more than I post so most of you don't know me or that I work for

County, the first agency in this chain. I have read many other threads

involving other situations and the resulting rush to judgment based on partial

knowledge of all the facts and been more amused than anything; but when you are

the target, boy, does it feel differently.

We are a default 911 center for the State of Colorado, and we dispatch for two

counties. We dispatch 8 fire/ems agencies in those counties and the

County Sheriff Office deputies. So, should we answer with the name of every

agency we dispatch for? Can you imagine the confusion if we answered

County and the caller lived in Arapahoe County? Then, the next question would

be, why did I get , I live in Arapahoe and we would have to explain that

to the caller, slowing down the whole process. Arapahoe County dispatches their

Sheriff's Office deputies and some incorporated police departments, but we cover

half their County with several of our agencies. And, just to make it

interesting, two other fire/ems agencies cover the western half of our County

and each has its own dispatch center.

We do answer " 911, WHERE is your emergency? " (Another discussion thread.) That

enabled the call taker to determine that what was on the screen was not the

caller's address. We then ask, what city or county do you live in? As a

default center, we get any call in the State that the towers don't know where to

route to for whatever reason. The call was transferred based on the information

the caller gave. We are 40 miles south of Denver and the caller was a similar

distance north of Denver. No way do we know all the nuances of unincorporated

vs incorporated in all the geographical jurisdictions in the greater Denver

area, not to mention the rest of the State. We have enough on our plates

dealing with that and the two incorporated police juridictions inside our own

County. Callers bear at least some responsibility for knowing where they are,

don't you think?

Finally, the call taker followed procedures. Those procedures were devleoped

and agreed to by all of the agencies we disptach for. I am confidant that very

highly trained professionals with many years of experience (Fire Chiefs,

Sheriffs, etc.) have called those shots. It works very well and very

efficiently for us. I think it worked in this case.

Forgive me if I come across defensively. I do not mean to be, but it is a

challenge :-) And, I very much enjoy reading about something that I have

personal knowledge of for a change. Keep it going!

Walt

Re: 911:: Wrong Address Ends in Tragedy

I forgot to say in my last post that if County does not identify

when they answer, there may be an issue with them as well. I think that

all centers should identify, but I am calling the kettle black, because NYC

does not.

[Guest guest]

>Forgive me if I come across defensively. I do not mean to be, but it is a

>challenge :-) And, I very much enjoy reading about something that I have

>personal knowledge of for a change. Keep it going!

Walt, I do not think you are defensive at all, and hope you don't think I

was criticizing your center as there was no wrong doing. Why you don't

identify makes sense, but I still think it is a problem for all centers,

but without an obvious solution. And like I said, NYC 9-1-1 does not

identify either, so my comments apply here too.

Now that there has been more discussion, and your elaboration, one question

is clear from this incident: automatic vs.manual transfers (i.e. the

centers talk to each other with the caller on the line). This was a brief

recent thread.

[Guest guest]

Our way of dealing with it is to conference the caller with the correct

agency. That solves the issue of not asking the questions that the

responding agency would ask.

Roscommon County (MI) Central Dispatch

>

> TC wrote:

>

> >I find it interesting that this touches on one of our LT's biggest

issues...

> >we are told if we get a call that has been improperly routed to our

agency

> >from another PSAP we cannot route it again... we have to take the

> >information and relay it to the correct agency ourselves (even though we

may

> >not ask the same questions the responding agency may ask and may not have

> >the info they need to respond properly). I personally think that it is

> >always best for the responding agency to speak directly to the caller but

> >our LT disagrees and considers it poor public relations if we route the

call

> >again.

> >

> >Anyone else have similar policies?

> >

> >Tonya

> >Albany, OR