Re: A Question About Personal Power

[Guest guest]

Hi Bjorn,

-----Original Message-----

>Well, and Wally.

>

>I must have expressed myself very poorly. Pete has missed no opportunity to

make

>me aware of my language problem. Maybe soon I will see the white light.

But,

>until then, and " I ONLY SAY THIS ONCE! " (with French accent, guess which

>serial!).

I thought you expressed yourself well. Your English is getting better all

the time :-). My post was mainly a response to Pete, not to your post that

Pete was responding to. But I do have a few comments, interspersed below

with snippets of your original...

[snip]

>But first, nobody have been able to explain how the Beast in the Addictive

Voice

>can develop into the 'Beast' in " Embodiment of the Beast " . From this I'm

>compelled to extract, that you don't think this is theoretically possible.

It's a good question, since Beast(1) seems to be an agent of hedonism, and

Beast(2) an agent of repression. But I think there IS a theoretical

possibility. Beast(1) says " I cannot control myself. " Beast(2) says " since

you cannot control yourself, WE will. " Beast(2) could perhaps be

opportunistic, but it could also be a sort of generalization and extension

of Beast(1): " since people cannot control themselves, they must be

controlled by groups and institutions. "

Too simpleminded? ;-)

>

>There are two aspects of JT's theory that bothers me. The first is his lack

of

>understanding of the importance of culture. He seems to think that the

American

>culture is 'Nature', which is seriously wrong.

>The second is his conception of brain functioning, which cannot be

confirmed by

>our knowledge about this complex organ.

>

[sniiiiiiiiiiip]

I agree. And I can add some, I think.

I considered myself a member of RR in 1994, when an early version of the

" new " RR book was first circulated. I started to read it eagerly, but was

quite taken aback and dismayed by the contents.

First stumbling block, early in the book, was the statement that " your

Addictive Voice is the sole cause of your addiction. " I thought that idea

was pretty crazy. In the world we live in, the real one, nothing has a

*sole* cause [unless perhaps you're talking about phenomena in quantum

mechanics.] If AV is the *sole cause* then it must spring into existence out

of nothing, without antecedents. I started a debate once on arf12s with a

couple of RR people about the " sole cause " principle, and of course they

quickly built a wall of tautology around their position.

Another RR concept that I disagree with is the notion that excessive

drinking is fueled by pure appetite for pleasure. Reason I can't believe

that, is that too many people I know who drank too much have said they were

doing so to escape unpleasant feelings, such as anxiety, anger, loneliness,

boredom. And I can't think of a good reason to rule out the possibility that

there is an element of willful self-destructiveness in " alcoholic " drinking,

akin perhaps to the urges that some people have for physical self-mutilation

or masochism. Trimpey could be right, but he needs to prove it.

Trimpey is really trying to artificially separate the addiction from the

person. His motive, I guess, is that with this separation he can claim to

offer an " addiction program " that doesn't need to help people deal with

problems of emotional management. It simplifies his life.

Also, " AVRT " doesn't seem relevant to my experience. When I was going to RR

meetings I made a genuine effort to locate and recognize my addictive voice.

But I couldn't find it! Perhaps I had one once, but when I made a decision

to stop drinking, realizing that AA wasn't going to help me and that I would

have to do it myself, it went away.

Maybe one of these days Trimpey will have another metamorphosis like in '94,

and start saying that the " sole cause " of addiction is Beast(2), which is,

after all, a manifestation of culture. That would be progress.

In short I think you can see that I am not likely to be singled out as a

leading booster of RR any time soon. NONETHELESS I admire what Trimpey is

doing. He grossly oversimplifies addiction, but that is exactly what allows

him to take strong stands against things that most of us here agree are

wrong. What I DON'T see him doing is trying to set up his own cult or

elevate himself to superguruhood.

--wally

[Guest guest]

I would also like to thank Sue for the book title - I just ordered it

> >

> > Eudaimon,

> >

> > I'm not sure if I'll be on target here, but sounds to me

> > that this is a self-esteem issue. I would highly recommend a

> > book that Joe B. posted here called Self-Esteem by

McKay

> > and Fanning. It has helped me to begin to overcome

> > some self doubt. Quote:

> > " Affirming your worth is no easy task. Right now you believe

> > that your worth depends on your behavior. Metaphorically, you

> see

> > yourself as an empty vessel that must be filled, drop by drop,

> > with your achievements. You start out essentially worthless,

> > a body that moves and talks. The 'critic' in you would have

> > you believe that there is no intrinsic value in life, only a

> > potential for doing something worthwhile, something important.

> > The truth is that your value is your consciousness, your

> > ability to perceive and experience. The value of a human life

> > is that it exists. You are a complex miracle of creation.

> > You are a person who is trying to live, and that makes you as

> > worthwhile as every other person who is doing the same thing.

> > Achievement has nothing to do with it. Whatever you do, what-

> > ever you contribute should not come from the need to prove your

> > value, but from the natural flow of your aliveness. What you

> > do should come from the drive to fully live, rather than the

> > fight to justify yourself. "

> >

> > Maybe you are afraid that if you take control, you may fail

> > or be criticized. And that would hurt. So to avoid that

> > pain, it is safer for you to let others " live " for you. That

> > way, if they screw up, hey it wouldn't be your fault, right?

> >

> > Anyway, maybe this book could help. (thanks Joe

> >

> > Sue

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >From: eudaimon84133110@a...

> > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > >Subject: A Question About Personal Power

> > >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:54:48 EDT

> > >

> > >I have found that my problem seems to be that I may have

> internalized the

> > >belief that there is something wrong with me such that I need

> someone to

> > >tell

> > >me how to live (i.e. 'sponsorship direction') and that without it

> I

> am

> > >doomed

> > >to living clumsily and being depressed all the time. Does anyone

> have any

> > >good hints on how to reclaim one's own proper place at the

rudder

> of one's

> > >life from this condition?

> > >

> > >

> > >\

> >

> >

>

______________________________________________________________________

> __

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

You are welcome . Hope that you find it as helpful

as I have. Sue

>

>I would also like to thank Sue for the book title - I just ordered it

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Eudaimon,

> > >

> > > I'm not sure if I'll be on target here, but sounds to me

> > > that this is a self-esteem issue. I would highly recommend a

> > > book that Joe B. posted here called Self-Esteem by

>McKay

> > > and Fanning. It has helped me to begin to overcome

> > > some self doubt. Quote:

> > > " Affirming your worth is no easy task. Right now you believe

> > > that your worth depends on your behavior. Metaphorically, you

> > see

> > > yourself as an empty vessel that must be filled, drop by drop,

> > > with your achievements. You start out essentially worthless,

> > > a body that moves and talks. The 'critic' in you would have

> > > you believe that there is no intrinsic value in life, only a

> > > potential for doing something worthwhile, something important.

> > > The truth is that your value is your consciousness, your

> > > ability to perceive and experience. The value of a human life

> > > is that it exists. You are a complex miracle of creation.

> > > You are a person who is trying to live, and that makes you as

> > > worthwhile as every other person who is doing the same thing.

> > > Achievement has nothing to do with it. Whatever you do, what-

> > > ever you contribute should not come from the need to prove your

> > > value, but from the natural flow of your aliveness. What you

> > > do should come from the drive to fully live, rather than the

> > > fight to justify yourself. "

> > >

> > > Maybe you are afraid that if you take control, you may fail

> > > or be criticized. And that would hurt. So to avoid that

> > > pain, it is safer for you to let others " live " for you. That

> > > way, if they screw up, hey it wouldn't be your fault, right?

> > >

> > > Anyway, maybe this book could help. (thanks Joe

> > >

> > > Sue

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >From: eudaimon84133110@a...

> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> > > >Subject: A Question About Personal Power

> > > >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:54:48 EDT

> > > >

> > > >I have found that my problem seems to be that I may have

> > internalized the

> > > >belief that there is something wrong with me such that I need

> > someone to

> > > >tell

> > > >me how to live (i.e. 'sponsorship direction') and that without it

> > I

> > am

> > > >doomed

> > > >to living clumsily and being depressed all the time. Does anyone

> > have any

> > > >good hints on how to reclaim one's own proper place at the

>rudder

> > of one's

> > > >life from this condition?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >\

> > >

> > >

> >

>______________________________________________________________________

> > __

> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> > http://www.hotmail.com

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com