Re: Group Please read! I need help

[Guest guest]

My mother is borderline and also doesn't contact us at ALL. It is a punishment

for not doing exactly as she wants, nothing more.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 2:26:19 PM

Subject: Group Please read! I need help

Dear group,

I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has BPD.

The one thing I am confused with is....

It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has stopped

talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of us and

hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other constantly.

Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally different from how

they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in regards to spending $

,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us about how she needs her $.

She currently has her house up for sale since she stopped talking to us. She

has sent word to US that she is selling the contents of the house as well. We

asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would like to pass down and were

told NO!.

My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice and

her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this way,

she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up calls

from my phone #.

Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would simply

fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

Sorry for the venting..... ...I guess my big question is ...Most of the posters

here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone. We have

the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she can

simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do any

of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

[Guest guest]

your mother does sound borderline to me..mine is the same way...she cut me

out..all this year she would not contact me ( although she does my

siblings) no birthday card, no anniversary card, I bet no Christmas card,

no comfort when my dog died of bone cancer...she's just evil..and your

daughter should not be exposed to her, you're doing the right thing

Jackie

Dear group,

I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has

BPD. The one thing I am confused with is....

It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has

stopped talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of us

and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other

constantly. Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally

different from how they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in

regards to spending $ ,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us

about how she needs her $. She currently has her house up for sale since

she stopped talking to us. She has sent word to US that she is selling the

contents of the house as well. We asked if we could buy the family

heirlooms we would like to pass down and were told NO!.

My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice

and her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated

this way, she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back

again a few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her

and " have your father take you up to my house " .

The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

Sorry for the venting........I guess my big question is ...Most of the

posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them

alone. We have the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave

it!) but she can simply just cut us out and our children with not even a

second thought. Do any of you know of another disorder that may fit her

better?

Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

[Guest guest]

I agree. Your mother's behaviors sound similar to some of my mother's and she

has been formally diagnosed with bpd twice. It really doesn't matter if your

mother has a formal diagnosis or not, the point is that her behaviors are

punitive, distressing and hateful toward you and your siblings and your family.

However, I think the bigger and more alarming issue you need to focus on is that

your 9-year-old daughter apparently feels more loyal to her grandmother than she

feels toward you; that is VERY alarming.

I suggest that you have a very calm but earnest talk with your daughter and

explain what is going on in an age-appropriate way. She needs to know the whole

picture. Tell her about your childhood and how your mother treated you and

still treats you, and that its not OK to treat anyone like that, especially your

own children.

Ask your daughter about her feelings and answer her questions. Gently and kindly

get the whole story of her relationship with her grandmother from her; my guess

is that it is possible that your mother has been " grooming " your daughter to be

loyal to her by giving her inappropriate presents or money, extra attention, or

by telling her lies about you. Yes, bpd and narcissistic pd people do that.

Hard as it is, I'd refocus my energy on your daughter and your other kid(s) and

just let your mother play her martyred victim role to her heart's content (you

take away her power if you seem to not care; let her sell her house and the

heirlooms; assume a " so what? " attitude.)

And do NOT let your mother come between you and your kids! That is not in their

best interest at all, in my opinion.

-Annie

>

> My mother is borderline and also doesn't contact us at ALL. It is a

punishment for not doing exactly as she wants, nothing more.

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 2:26:19 PM

> Subject: Group Please read! I need help

>

>

> Dear group,

>

> I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has BPD.

The one thing I am confused with is....

> It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has stopped

talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

> She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of us

and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other constantly.

Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally different from how

they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in regards to spending $

,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us about how she needs her $.

She currently has her house up for sale since she stopped talking to us. She

has sent word to US that she is selling the contents of the house as well. We

asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would like to pass down and were

told NO!.

> My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice and

her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this way,

she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

> Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

> The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

> Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

>

> Sorry for the venting..... ...I guess my big question is ...Most of the

posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone.

We have the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she

can simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do

any of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

>

> Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What you're describing definitely sounds like BPD, maybe

combined with NPD. (Borderline and Narcissistic PDs often go

together.) The problems we have with getting them to leave us

alone could more broadly be described as problems getting them

to have contact on our terms rather than completely on theirs.

For some of us, the problem is that they want constant contact,

even at inappropriate times. For others, the problem is that

they only want contact when they want something from us, or they

want us to travel long distances to visit them, or they want to

come stay at our houses for weeks at a time. I suspect that

yours would want more contact if you had more of a history of

acting the way she wanted you to act and putting wants before

your own needs. They generally like us much more when we're

under their spell and control than when we're leading our own

lives. Besides wanting everything on their own terms, they tend

to divide people into " all good " and " all bad " categories. It

sounds you're in the " bad " category and thus not worthy of her

contact. You might want to ask yourself whether you yearn for

contact with your mother as she is or whether it is contact with

the more ideal mother you should have had that you are yearning

for.

I agree with Annie and that you need to take more steps

to protect your daughter. She's going to get hurt more and more

if she doesn't come to understand what her grandmother is really

like and she could pick up undesirable behaviors. Nine is old

enough to understand the idea of someone having a mental

illness. You don't have to give her more details than she is

ready for, but you should probably start talking to her about

it. I wish someone had explained to me at that age that my nada

has a mental illness. Knowing that it wasn't my fault that she

treated me the way she did would have helped a lot. A

grandmother isn't as close as a mother, but grandmothers are

expected to love their grandchildren and treat them like they're

special and it hurts when that's not what they do.

At 02:26 PM 12/06/2009 daughterinpain wrote:

>Dear group,

>

>I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my

>mother has BPD. The one thing I am confused with is....

>It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her

>life. She has stopped talking to the 3 of us and also the 4

>grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

>She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly

>loving 1 of us and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us

>against each other constantly. Everything is ALL ABOUT her

>. She remembers events totally different from how they

>actually happened. She is very self-destructive in regards to

>spending $ ,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to

>us about how she needs her $. She currently has her house up

>for sale since she stopped talking to us. She has sent word to

>US that she is selling the contents of the house as well. We

>asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would like to

>pass down and were told NO!.

>My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I

>gave in twice and her call was not returned. I will not allow

>my daughter to be treated this way, she is completely innocent

>and loves my mother to a fault.

>Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and

>called my mother without permission. I found out later that

>she had called and left a crying message saying " how come you

>dont call me grama " , and then called back again a few minutes

>later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and

> " have your father take you up to my house " .

>The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not

>picking up calls from my phone #.

>Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my

>mother would simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade

>against me.

>

>Sorry for the venting........I guess my big question is ...Most

>of the posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD

>person to leave them alone. We have the opposite, we want to

>be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she can simply just

>cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do

>any of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

>

>Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

>@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO

>NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

>To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

>888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving

>the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any

>bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

> author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Perhaps Bipolar or Narcisstic but no matter what the diagnosis, her behavior is

simply hurtful and unhealthy. Only if she sees someone will she get a

diagnosis. Where you can get support is through reading, sharing with groups

like this one, or through a therapist in your area who may have suggestions on

how to deal with her. You may be desparate for a relationship with her, but I'm

afraid you are going to get more of the same which sounds very unhealthy for

your children and for you. Do you really want to expose young children to this

type of behavior and role modeling? Do you want to have to explain this to a

child? This behavior isn't going to get better on its own.

Best of luck to you,

Jaye

>

> Dear group,

>

> I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has BPD.

The one thing I am confused with is....

> It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has stopped

talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

> She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of us

and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other constantly.

Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally different from how

they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in regards to spending $

,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us about how she needs her $.

She currently has her house up for sale since she stopped talking to us. She

has sent word to US that she is selling the contents of the house as well. We

asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would like to pass down and were

told NO!.

> My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice and

her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this way,

she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

> Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

> The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

> Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

>

> Sorry for the venting........I guess my big question is ...Most of the posters

here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone. We have

the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she can

simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do any

of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

>

> Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

>

[Guest guest]

Leanne,

Thank you for that wonderful tip regarding the *free* counseling, therapy and

emotional support available for both women and men at domestic violence

shelters. That is awesome. And I'm so glad for you that you were able to leave

your abusive husband and his abusive mother, and have provided a calmer,

healthier life now for yourself and your child free from their toxic emotional

abuse.

Congratulations, I know how much courage it took to rescue yourself.

Many kudos to you.

-Annie

>

> Hi All,

.... In the meantime, I started going to the local domestic violence shelter for

counseling and group therapy. It was a life saver for me. It validated my

experience with my husband and his mother and helped me keep my sanity at my

father's. It offers counseling to children as well and is completely FREE! It is

about abusive relationships of every kind. It strives to teach women (the men's

support is separate but is available for men who are abused too) about HEALTHY

relationships. There are women there who come because of abusive parents as

well. Any of you who need support can get free support from your local domestic

violence shelter. You don't have to live there, you can go for free counseling

and support. Your experience shared, helps others too. Any of you who can not

afford counseling, even

> those of you who can... give it a try. I was in counseling many, many times

since my marriage, about my marriage and its abusive nature. It was supportive

but it did not get down to what is really important...My relationship was

unhealthy period. The reason's were secondary. That is the key. It is vital to

understand that the relationship is unhealthy and that it is not you that made

it that way. As has been pointed out over and over here, if you are the one

seeking help, you are the key to your recovery. You are the key to your

recovery. You are showing signs of wonderful health by seeking help. I highly

recommend domestic violence support. My husband did not beat me. He was

emotionally very abusive, and not like my dad. He was calm, in control,

calculating. His behavior was designed to make me think " I " was crazy! ( I was

sometimes...but we all are and we call each other on it and fix it..PD people

will not accept being called on it..they will turn it

> on you with a vengeance and make you feel like it is all your fault). God

Bless. (You are all so blessed already, I believe... you are here and you are

giving loving help to us all).

> Leanne

[Guest guest]

There may be another way of looking at this. Is the nada abusive to the

90tear-old? I am not sure 9 year olds can think about loyalty. Kids just want

loves.

My concern is that if you don't let them see each other, the child will blame

YOU.

Can you give your daughter supervised visitation by a neutral party who can

spell out what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and communication? This

is her communication with her gradmother--you are to be totally uninvolved. Set

limits for the mother for the good of the child.

Randi Kreger

Randi @BPDCentral.com

Author, " The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips

and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells "

(Available at www.BPDCentral.com)

> >

> > My mother is borderline and also doesn't contact us at ALL. It is a

punishment for not doing exactly as she wants, nothing more.

> >

> >

> >

> > ________________________________

> > From: daughterinpain <daughterinpain@>

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 2:26:19 PM

> > Subject: Group Please read! I need help

> >

> >

> > Dear group,

> >

> > I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has

BPD. The one thing I am confused with is....

> > It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has

stopped talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

> > She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of us

and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other constantly.

Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally different from how

they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in regards to spending $

,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us about how she needs her $.

She currently has her house up for sale since she stopped talking to us. She

has sent word to US that she is selling the contents of the house as well. We

asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would like to pass down and were

told NO!.

> > My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice

and her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this

way, she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

> > Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

> > The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

> > Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

> >

> > Sorry for the venting..... ...I guess my big question is ...Most of the

posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone.

We have the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she

can simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do

any of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

> >

> > Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wow, I can't understand allowing a grandnada who is clearly abusive and punitive

to all of her adult children to have contact with her grand-daughter; that just

seems so counter-intuitive to me. Why do you feel that someone who exhibits

that kind of behavior would be beneficial to the child? I'm puzzled.

-Annie

> > >

> > > My mother is borderline and also doesn't contact us at ALL. It is a

punishment for not doing exactly as she wants, nothing more.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: daughterinpain <daughterinpain@>

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 2:26:19 PM

> > > Subject: Group Please read! I need help

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear group,

> > >

> > > I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has

BPD. The one thing I am confused with is....

> > > It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has

stopped talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

> > > She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of

us and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other

constantly. Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally

different from how they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in

regards to spending $ ,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us

about how she needs her $. She currently has her house up for sale since she

stopped talking to us. She has sent word to US that she is selling the contents

of the house as well. We asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would

like to pass down and were told NO!.

> > > My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice

and her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this

way, she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

> > > Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

> > > The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

> > > Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

> > >

> > > Sorry for the venting..... ...I guess my big question is ...Most of the

posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone.

We have the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she

can simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do

any of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

> > >

> > > Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Randi,

I am surprised at this response for so many reasons. If nadas would abide by

the rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior then I don't think many of us

would need this group. As far as the child having communication with the

grandmother without the parents being involved, I also take issue with that.

Nadas can plant little seeds of discord that can make it impossible for the

daughter/mother relationship to function in a way that parenting can be

effective. We have a rule in my house that if the grandmother or nada can't get

along with the parents then she doesn't have a relationship with the children

and skip the parents. Our family operates as a unit and I surely will not be

letting a child as young as 9 around someone that I have doubts about.

Many of us here open the mail that is sent for our children and then promptly

trash it protecting our children from nada's tactics. We have learned from past

experience that we must be involved with communication. My nada sent my then 4

1/2 yo a letter about how I was too busy to talk to nada everyday because I was

homeschooling the child. (Yes, my daughter could read the letter independently

and understood the content). I know from hearing stories from FOO that my nada

(currently NC) is intending to maintain contact with my children and get them to

shift their loyalties as adults. I'm not about to ever leave them with that

woman without me in the room. I will be evaluating every relationship my child

has until she shows the good judgment to do this by herself.

An issue I would have with the original post is that the daughter is sneaking to

do anything. Sneaking in my house is disobedience and would be handled as such.

To me sneaking and calling a nada who is off limits is the same as later calling

a boyfriend who the parents have determined to be harmful and off limits in some

way.

I must get busy. This response is meant to be respectful. I always sound

hateful when I type.

le

> > >

> > > My mother is borderline and also doesn't contact us at ALL. It is a

punishment for not doing exactly as she wants, nothing more.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: daughterinpain <daughterinpain@>

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 2:26:19 PM

> > > Subject: Group Please read! I need help

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear group,

> > >

> > > I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has

BPD. The one thing I am confused with is....

> > > It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has

stopped talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

> > > She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of

us and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other

constantly. Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally

different from how they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in

regards to spending $ ,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us

about how she needs her $. She currently has her house up for sale since she

stopped talking to us. She has sent word to US that she is selling the contents

of the house as well. We asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would

like to pass down and were told NO!.

> > > My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice

and her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this

way, she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

> > > Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

> > > The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

> > > Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

> > >

> > > Sorry for the venting..... ...I guess my big question is ...Most of the

posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone.

We have the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she

can simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do

any of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

> > >

> > > Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

If I may add one note - I've seen my son " get wise " to his grandmother's

behavior as he's grown up. When he was little, I could be around and let them

bake cookies together (there was a time when I thought she was OK to be his

babysitter - looking back, I wish I hadn't done that, but when he was a toddler,

her manipulations weren't very effective). As he got to be old enough to

" decipher " her insinuations, he started being more uncomfortable with her, and I

could start explaining that we limit contact while trying to be kind. Now, at

16, he is fully aware of verbal manipulation and backhanded " compliments, " and

is completely on board with our NC/LC policy.

So even if the 9 year old is being lured into Nada's camp, there's a good chance

she'll figure things out - I'd vote for supervised visits, rare in number, and

having a parent in the room when ANY phone calls take place between a 9 year old

and ANYBODY other than the other parent. Kids that age don't need unfettered

access to the phone, emails, or the internet - no matter who they're talking to.

> > >

> > > My mother is borderline and also doesn't contact us at ALL. It is a

punishment for not doing exactly as she wants, nothing more.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ________________________________

> > > From: daughterinpain <daughterinpain@>

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 2:26:19 PM

> > > Subject: Group Please read! I need help

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear group,

> > >

> > > I have posted 3 times over the the past 3 years. I believe my mother has

BPD. The one thing I am confused with is....

> > > It is her that does not want me or my 2 sisters in her life. She has

stopped talking to the 3 of us and also the 4 grandchildren ages 23 to 9.

> > > She has all of the classic Borderline signs like, constantly loving 1 of

us and hating 1 or the other 2 of us. She plays us against each other

constantly. Everything is ALL ABOUT her . She remembers events totally

different from how they actually happened. She is very self-destructive in

regards to spending $ ,usually on Botox , face lifts, etc. Then cries to us

about how she needs her $. She currently has her house up for sale since she

stopped talking to us. She has sent word to US that she is selling the contents

of the house as well. We asked if we could buy the family heirlooms we would

like to pass down and were told NO!.

> > > My 9 year old worships her and keeps asking to call her, I gave in twice

and her call was not returned. I will not allow my daughter to be treated this

way, she is completely innocent and loves my mother to a fault.

> > > Yesterday my daughter went to another part of my home and called my mother

without permission. I found out later that she had called and left a crying

message saying " how come you dont call me grama " , and then called back again a

few minutes later and my mother picked up and told her she loved her and " have

your father take you up to my house " .

> > > The first call that was unanswered shows that my mother was not picking up

calls from my phone #.

> > > Of course we will not allow my daughter to go there where my mother would

simply fill my 9 year olds head with a tirade against me.

> > >

> > > Sorry for the venting..... ...I guess my big question is ...Most of the

posters here seem to have trouble getting thier BPD person to leave them alone.

We have the opposite, we want to be in our mothers life ( we crave it!) but she

can simply just cut us out and our children with not even a second thought. Do

any of you know of another disorder that may fit her better?

> > >

> > > Please any suggestions for this Daughter in Pain?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I think you are right on target, le. The biggest red flag is that the

grandnada is encouraging the child to *sneak* behind her mother's back for

private phone calls. (And Lord knows what she is telling the child!)

Deliberately undermining the parent's authority is not beneficial to the child

in any way and is even hostile (to the parent) in my opinion.

-Annie

>

> Dear Randi,

>

> I am surprised at this response for so many reasons. If nadas would abide by

the rules of acceptable and unacceptable behavior then I don't think many of us

would need this group. As far as the child having communication with the

grandmother without the parents being involved, I also take issue with that.

Nadas can plant little seeds of discord that can make it impossible for the

daughter/mother relationship to function in a way that parenting can be

effective. We have a rule in my house that if the grandmother or nada can't get

along with the parents then she doesn't have a relationship with the children

and skip the parents. Our family operates as a unit and I surely will not be

letting a child as young as 9 around someone that I have doubts about.

>

> Many of us here open the mail that is sent for our children and then promptly

trash it protecting our children from nada's tactics. We have learned from past

experience that we must be involved with communication. My nada sent my then 4

1/2 yo a letter about how I was too busy to talk to nada everyday because I was

homeschooling the child. (Yes, my daughter could read the letter independently

and understood the content). I know from hearing stories from FOO that my nada

(currently NC) is intending to maintain contact with my children and get them to

shift their loyalties as adults. I'm not about to ever leave them with that

woman without me in the room. I will be evaluating every relationship my child

has until she shows the good judgment to do this by herself.

>

> An issue I would have with the original post is that the daughter is sneaking

to do anything. Sneaking in my house is disobedience and would be handled as

such. To me sneaking and calling a nada who is off limits is the same as later

calling a boyfriend who the parents have determined to be harmful and off limits

in some way.

>

> I must get busy. This response is meant to be respectful. I always sound

hateful when I type.

>

> le

[Guest guest]

>

> There may be another way of looking at this. Is the nada abusive to the

90tear-old? I am not sure 9 year olds can think about loyalty.

Yeah...I'm kind of with Randi on this one.

The reason is my whole childhood was about " loyalty " to nada. Every single

little problem she had with someone else was told to me and I was expected to

agree with her point of view and be " loyal " to her. That was easy as a tiny

child with no other viewpoint on human behavior, but even as I grew old enough

to see that she was just plain in the wrong about lots of things, there was all

this stress as I tried to figure out how to think/say/do what I knew was right,

and yet there was all this pull from the " Poor me, poor me, I've been treated so

badly by life, you have to side with me because I'm your poor mother and I

NEEeeeEEEeeed you!! " kind of attitude coming from you-know-where.

Loyalty should never be an obligation placed on a child. I've read in many

sources that a child has the right to have his or her own relationship with

another family member independent of whatever conflicts a parent has with that

family member, without having to worry about his mom or whatever. Of course,

that doesn't mean you allow the other adult to abuse that child. But I've grown

up to realize that I never really got to know what kind of people my paternal

grandparents really were (they died right after I graduated high school) because

I spent my whole childhood with my mother who was constantly at war with them

telling me what to perceive and what to think. Who were they really? I don't

know.

That's sad.

--.

[Guest guest]

To clarify:

" I disagree with this also. I watched my nada very closely with my daughter.

Everything she did with her mirrored what she did with me. On top of this, she

completely trashed me to my daughter. She felt the need to look better in her

eyes. She even called herself Mommy to my kids several times. This is why I went

NC.

Abuse is abuse. I would never knowingly allow my child around someone who is

abusive. BPD's aren't non-abusive to some people. They are abusive to everyone. "

Obviously, you don't let anybody treat your kid like this!

OTOH, my maternal grandparents, no matter how abusive they were to their own

kids, literally saved me from my nada. (Whom they created with their behavior.

A strange irony I don't quite get to this day.)

There are occasions when a grandparent can find it in themselves to treat the

grandkids the way they should have treated their own but for whatever reason

just couldn't. I realize now that my FOO was, is, and always has been a

shambles, and that most of the good things I thought were there as a youngster

were never really real. Yet the fact remains that when I couldn't stand the

screaming, the fighting, the tension, and the pressure around that house

anymore, I could always look forward to spending a weekend with them, and that

really really helped me get through high school years that, pardon my French,

just sucked. *Blew.*

Hope this helps.

--LL.

[Guest guest]

,

I totally 100% agree with what you said... I could have written this post... as

recently as 2 hours ago when I spoke with Nada and the issue of " loyalty " came

up with some other realatives.... again, still and forever.

It was a HUGE eye-opener for me when, almost 2 years ago, I learned from my

therapist that I didn't HAVE to carry her party line about

everyone,everything,everwhatever... just because Nada is my mother.

WOW!

Lynnette

> >

> > There may be another way of looking at this. Is the nada abusive to the

90tear-old? I am not sure 9 year olds can think about loyalty.

>

> Yeah...I'm kind of with Randi on this one.

>

> The reason is my whole childhood was about " loyalty " to nada. Every single

little problem she had with someone else was told to me and I was expected to

agree with her point of view and be " loyal " to her. That was easy as a tiny

child with no other viewpoint on human behavior, but even as I grew old enough

to see that she was just plain in the wrong about lots of things, there was all

this stress as I tried to figure out how to think/say/do what I knew was right,

and yet there was all this pull from the " Poor me, poor me, I've been treated so

badly by life, you have to side with me because I'm your poor mother and I

NEEeeeEEEeeed you!! " kind of attitude coming from you-know-where.

>

> Loyalty should never be an obligation placed on a child. I've read in many

sources that a child has the right to have his or her own relationship with

another family member independent of whatever conflicts a parent has with that

family member, without having to worry about his mom or whatever. Of course,

that doesn't mean you allow the other adult to abuse that child. But I've grown

up to realize that I never really got to know what kind of people my paternal

grandparents really were (they died right after I graduated high school) because

I spent my whole childhood with my mother who was constantly at war with them

telling me what to perceive and what to think. Who were they really? I don't

know.

>

> That's sad.

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

But your situation was exactly the opposite of DaughterInPain's situation,

though: the mirror opposite.

DIP is not bpd and she is trying to protect her child from being negatively

influenced by a manipulative bpd grandmother; what DIP is doing is responsible

and mentally healthy parenting.

In your case, it was your mother who was/is the bpd, and she was demanding and

enforcing your loyalty for unhealthy and abusive reasons: your nada was trying

to keep you away from mentally healthy relatives.

Bpds demand loyalty and enmeshment, and that is exactly what this bpd

grandmother is trying to do to her grandchild, even going so far as to make

contact behind DIP's back. That's just wrong and mentally ill behavior, in my

opinion.

If we are going to err, I vote to err on the side of the mentally healthy

person's judgment; grandnada has already proven herself untrustworthy and

deceptive, so, she does not get unsupervised contact with the child if she gets

any contact at all.

-Annie

> >

> > There may be another way of looking at this. Is the nada abusive to the

90tear-old? I am not sure 9 year olds can think about loyalty.

>

> Yeah...I'm kind of with Randi on this one.

>

> The reason is my whole childhood was about " loyalty " to nada. Every single

little problem she had with someone else was told to me and I was expected to

agree with her point of view and be " loyal " to her. That was easy as a tiny

child with no other viewpoint on human behavior, but even as I grew old enough

to see that she was just plain in the wrong about lots of things, there was all

this stress as I tried to figure out how to think/say/do what I knew was right,

and yet there was all this pull from the " Poor me, poor me, I've been treated so

badly by life, you have to side with me because I'm your poor mother and I

NEEeeeEEEeeed you!! " kind of attitude coming from you-know-where.

>

> Loyalty should never be an obligation placed on a child. I've read in many

sources that a child has the right to have his or her own relationship with

another family member independent of whatever conflicts a parent has with that

family member, without having to worry about his mom or whatever. Of course,

that doesn't mean you allow the other adult to abuse that child. But I've grown

up to realize that I never really got to know what kind of people my paternal

grandparents really were (they died right after I graduated high school) because

I spent my whole childhood with my mother who was constantly at war with them

telling me what to perceive and what to think. Who were they really? I don't

know.

>

> That's sad.

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

But would a child even realize they were being abused? Did all of us? I

certainly didn't. Didn't some of us get horribly damaged even while we were

struggling to be near our nadas? Struggling to be top-dog with her?

Yes, the child might blame you. But does that erase your responsibility to your

child to protect them from an abuse so insidious that their young minds won't be

able to recognize it?

Like my boy did, hopefully, the child will have a lightbulb moment with

grandnada when it grows up. For my boy, it took having grandnada say something

negative about his *own* child. A long time, I know, but I always thought my

son had it bad enough being raised by a person with so many fleas without

constantly exposing him to the source.

Just a bunch of questions and thoughts. =)

Christy

>

> >> There may be another way of looking at this. Is the nada

> >> abusive to the 90tear-old? I am not sure 9 year olds can

> >> think about loyalty. Kids just want loves. My concern is

> >> that if you don't let them see each other, the child will

> >> blame YOU.

>

> >> Can you give your daughter supervised visitation by a

> >> neutral party who can spell out what is acceptable and

> >> unacceptable behavior and communication? This is her

> >> communication with her gradmother--you are to be totally

> >> uninvolved. Set limits for the mother for the good of the

> >> child.

> >>Randi Kreger

> >>Randi @BPDCentral.com

> >

> >--

> >Katrina

>