Re: Re: toxic AA--to MikeNY

[Guest guest]

:

I read your post last night and it opened up my eyes to the predicament

I am in right now.

First of all, a comment about the need of some members in AA or other

groups to debase someone else, and invalidate the persons opinion who

they disagree with or just bully someone else because they can.

I have said that I was always fortunate in that much of this stuff was

not done to me in AA. But then again, my first few years I pretty much

" bought " everything that was programmed into me.

In retrospect, I see that the reason I did this was because I knew that

if I didn't get off the drug merry-go round soon, I might never get off

of it. Fear, was my number one motivator.

I tried to believe in the HP concept that has become standard in various

programs. The question was always on my lips that if God is responsible

for my staying sober, than logic follows that he was responsible for

making me the type of person who needed my drugs to survive.

All of the childhood stuff that I see now was " toxic " by this I mean the

way I was treated and perceived by my family and others of significance

in my life, were allowed to happen by my HP. This along with a couple of

traumatic experiences pushed me in the direction of " better living

through chemistry. "

So the obvious contradiction was, if I accept the premise of a HP who

intervenes in my life, than I have to accept that he did a lot of harm

to me before he became my salvation in recovering from alcoholism.

But back to now. I have to completely stop my use of various drugs,

although I have been able to con myself that they are medically

indicated.

AA basically worked for me because it gave me something to do with my

spare time instead of drinking or using.

Now since I am turned off more and more, I know that I am not going to

get well though any 12 step program. Yet, that 10% of the time when I

take too many Percodans or when I realize I an spending all my

discretionary money on drugs, have convinced me to go back to total

abstinence.

The problem is what am I going to use to achieve this goal? One thing I

know is that knowledge is not enough. All my knowledge of substance

abuse has not helped me at all in staying sober these past few years.

I have a couple of ideas, which will entail my taking a leave of absence

from work and putting together a course of action that will work for me.

But back to the sadism in 12 step programs. I think it has a lot to do

with the dysfunction in 12 step programs. Where else is a person who for

years had no moral code, encouraged after a year to " help " and work with

newer members.

Where does he learn the right way to do it? I think the degree of abuse

a person in AA engages in is proportional to the baggage they bring to

the program. Moreover, in any group where there is a power structure

there will always be abuses. The problem with this happening in 12 step

programs is that the abuses are against people who for years have felt

bad about themselves and when they finally come someplace for help they

either realize the game and leave, sometimes in worse shape, or they

stay and take more abuse because they believe that they feel bad

because it is something they are doing wrong!

It's sucks all the way around.

Originally Mikena@...

I think many reasons could be offered for the " episodes of the little

knives. "

I once saw a show of Winters (who went nuts then quit

drinking)

In the show it was described how his alcoholic parents had always

been competitive with him. Resented his success. even tried to trip

him up or hurt his feeling deliberately.

Yoou have heard the expression " My parents did everything for me,

well my Parentd did an enormous of things, including outright

cruelty, to take away any advantages I might have developed.

This Papa is now a 27-year plus AA 'wise man' who has a cadre of

babies. sick.

This personally type, whether wet or dry, is attracted to weaker

people, and preys upon them.

I was raised with Tough Luv O Plenty. Alanon, AA, nutso-therapy

cult.

(Not all AAs are in on this, although most know that something's

going on. Just like most nuns can figure out when Padre is doing

some molesting.)

In AA, there is a strange dynamic between Power, Position, Financial

and Physical Health relative to the Newcomer. And a lot of loose

canons, answerable, really, to no one.

There is definitely ritualistic 'smashing' of Egos, some of whom do

not recover, others flee, (still damaged) others are immune but

complicit, some do in fact commit suicide. Most never really solve

their substance problem.

Mike, you can hang in there for the other 10%. But you must find

something to take to place of AA which took the place of booze.

something that gives you joy.

That's the trick. Although I'm hardly one to say. It's been a

struggle for me. I'm an oblivion drinker with a history of profound

abuse. It's easy to fall into the trance that wants sleep and

forgetfulness.

Again, I think the path out, is a meaningful life in and among other

people. This list has been a help.

You have my best wishes,

- P. de Arboleda

> > I've never heard the word toxic used in AA, but I haven't been to

a

> meeting

> > for some years. I have heard it used, and used it myself to

> describe a

> > certain kind of person, or more accurately certain kinds of

> behaviour. It

> > gets attached to people because people who do this behaviour tend

> to do it

> > a lot. My own parents were toxic in this sense. What it means

used

> in this

> > way is someone who has an exaggerated critical sense and who is

> constantly

> > faultfinding in others, condescending, patronising, and with whom

a

> > relationship free of such phenomena cannot be maintained. Or

> something

> > along those lines. " Toxic people " are likely to be continually

> dripping

> > acid into your mind (not in a good sense) with little bits of

> criticism and

> > subtle put-downs, or worse. There was a book published sometime

> recently

> > called " Toxic Parents " that I assume used a similar definition.

It

> is

> > ironic that AA is now assimilating and redefining this expression

> to apply

> > to people who " don't get it " - if so, these are the least " toxic "

> people in

> > AA! It is ironic because as defined above it describes a great

many

> AA

> > members and the way they operate with newcomers, sponsees, and

> others, and

> > may well describe the family backgrounds of many members that

have

> made

> > them more susceptible to the undermining and disempowering of the

> AA

> > program. FWIW I think the use of the word " toxic " is related to

> what Alice

> > describes as " poisonous pedagogy " . Note that there is the

> idea of

> > being poisoned in both instances.

> >

> > Joe B.

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

> Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.

> Remember the good 'ol days

> http://click./1/4053/2/_/4324/_/960053529/

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

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[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for your good wishes, you certainly have mine,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: toxic AA--to MikeNY

>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 00:30:32 -0000

>

>I think many reasons could be offered for the " episodes of the little

>knives. "

>

>I once saw a show of Winters (who went nuts then quit

>drinking)

>

>In the show it was described how his alcoholic parents had always

>been competitive with him. Resented his success. even tried to trip

>him up or hurt his feeling deliberately.

>

>Yoou have heard the expression " My parents did everything for me,

>well my Parentd did an enormous of things, including outright

>cruelty, to take away any advantages I might have developed.

>

>This Papa is now a 27-year plus AA 'wise man' who has a cadre of

>babies. sick.

>

>This personally type, whether wet or dry, is attracted to weaker

>people, and preys upon them.

>

>I was raised with Tough Luv O Plenty. Alanon, AA, nutso-therapy

>cult.

>

>(Not all AAs are in on this, although most know that something's

>going on. Just like most nuns can figure out when Padre is doing

>some molesting.)

>

>In AA, there is a strange dynamic between Power, Position, Financial

>and Physical Health relative to the Newcomer. And a lot of loose

>canons, answerable, really, to no one.

>

>There is definitely ritualistic 'smashing' of Egos, some of whom do

>not recover, others flee, (still damaged) others are immune but

>complicit, some do in fact commit suicide. Most never really solve

>their substance problem.

>

>Mike, you can hang in there for the other 10%. But you must find

>something to take to place of AA which took the place of booze.

>something that gives you joy.

>

>That's the trick. Although I'm hardly one to say. It's been a

>struggle for me. I'm an oblivion drinker with a history of profound

>abuse. It's easy to fall into the trance that wants sleep and

>forgetfulness.

>

>Again, I think the path out, is a meaningful life in and among other

>people. This list has been a help.

>

>You have my best wishes,

>- P. de Arboleda

>

>

>

> > > I've never heard the word toxic used in AA, but I haven't been to

>a

> > meeting

> > > for some years. I have heard it used, and used it myself to

> > describe a

> > > certain kind of person, or more accurately certain kinds of

> > behaviour. It

> > > gets attached to people because people who do this behaviour tend

> > to do it

> > > a lot. My own parents were toxic in this sense. What it means

>used

> > in this

> > > way is someone who has an exaggerated critical sense and who is

> > constantly

> > > faultfinding in others, condescending, patronising, and with whom

>a

> > > relationship free of such phenomena cannot be maintained. Or

> > something

> > > along those lines. " Toxic people " are likely to be continually

> > dripping

> > > acid into your mind (not in a good sense) with little bits of

> > criticism and

> > > subtle put-downs, or worse. There was a book published sometime

> > recently

> > > called " Toxic Parents " that I assume used a similar definition.

>It

> > is

> > > ironic that AA is now assimilating and redefining this expression

> > to apply

> > > to people who " don't get it " - if so, these are the least " toxic "

> > people in

> > > AA! It is ironic because as defined above it describes a great

>many

> > AA

> > > members and the way they operate with newcomers, sponsees, and

> > others, and

> > > may well describe the family backgrounds of many members that

>have

> > made

> > > them more susceptible to the undermining and disempowering of the

> > AA

> > > program. FWIW I think the use of the word " toxic " is related to

> > what Alice

> > > describes as " poisonous pedagogy " . Note that there is the

> > idea of

> > > being poisoned in both instances.

> > >

> > > Joe B.

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------------------------------------------

>----

> > Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.

> > Remember the good 'ol days

> > http://click./1/4053/2/_/4324/_/960053529/

> > --------------------------------------------------------------------

>----

>

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[Guest guest]

Hey Mike. I hope you aren't too harsh with yourself. It's pretty good to be

90% in control. Take a little time and think about where you are and how

you got there, before you start figuring out what to do with the future.

I may be projecting my own stuff on to you, but I used to do these massive

self improvement plans. I would take a day or more putting them together,

and I would end up never doing anything in my plan. Because I actually had

like 40 hours of activity planned for each day. It was kind of an escape

tactic. And I wonder if that's what you're talking about when you say you

will take a leave from work. Of course I could be wrong, you know what's

best. And taking time off from work is always a good thing

Judith

On Sun, 4 Jun 2000 11:38:50 -0400 (EDT), 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> :

>

> I read your post last night and it opened up my eyes to the predicament

> I am in right now.

>

> First of all, a comment about the need of some members in AA or other

> groups to debase someone else, and invalidate the persons opinion who

> they disagree with or just bully someone else because they can.

>

> I have said that I was always fortunate in that much of this stuff was

> not done to me in AA. But then again, my first few years I pretty much

> " bought " everything that was programmed into me.

>

> In retrospect, I see that the reason I did this was because I knew that

> if I didn't get off the drug merry-go round soon, I might never get off

> of it. Fear, was my number one motivator.

>

> I tried to believe in the HP concept that has become standard in various

> programs. The question was always on my lips that if God is responsible

> for my staying sober, than logic follows that he was responsible for

> making me the type of person who needed my drugs to survive.

>

> All of the childhood stuff that I see now was " toxic " by this I mean the

> way I was treated and perceived by my family and others of significance

> in my life, were allowed to happen by my HP. This along with a couple of

> traumatic experiences pushed me in the direction of " better living

> through chemistry. "

>

>

> So the obvious contradiction was, if I accept the premise of a HP who

> intervenes in my life, than I have to accept that he did a lot of harm

> to me before he became my salvation in recovering from alcoholism.

>

> But back to now. I have to completely stop my use of various drugs,

> although I have been able to con myself that they are medically

> indicated.

>

> AA basically worked for me because it gave me something to do with my

> spare time instead of drinking or using.

>

> Now since I am turned off more and more, I know that I am not going to

> get well though any 12 step program. Yet, that 10% of the time when I

> take too many Percodans or when I realize I an spending all my

> discretionary money on drugs, have convinced me to go back to total

> abstinence.

>

> The problem is what am I going to use to achieve this goal? One thing I

> know is that knowledge is not enough. All my knowledge of substance

> abuse has not helped me at all in staying sober these past few years.

>

> I have a couple of ideas, which will entail my taking a leave of absence

> from work and putting together a course of action that will work for me.

>

> But back to the sadism in 12 step programs. I think it has a lot to do

> with the dysfunction in 12 step programs. Where else is a person who for

> years had no moral code, encouraged after a year to " help " and work with

> newer members.

>

> Where does he learn the right way to do it? I think the degree of abuse

> a person in AA engages in is proportional to the baggage they bring to

> the program. Moreover, in any group where there is a power structure

> there will always be abuses. The problem with this happening in 12 step

> programs is that the abuses are against people who for years have felt

> bad about themselves and when they finally come someplace for help they

> either realize the game and leave, sometimes in worse shape, or they

> stay and take more abuse because they believe that they feel bad

> because it is something they are doing wrong!

>

>

> It's sucks all the way around.

>

>

_______________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

You said that AA worked for you because you were doing some-

thing other than drinking and drugging. You hit it right on

here. A change in behavior. The behavior was changed to

something other than drugging. A new behavior took it's place.

But the new behavior(AA) ends up being " addicting " and dangerous

to mental health as well! Now what to do?

Replace the AA behavior.

Right now, I am trying to quit smoking by replacing my cigar-

ettes with sugar free candy. Well, geez, I don't want to be

chomping on this candy for the rest of my life either, so

eventually that behavior will have to change too.

So, I guess AA was kind of like the candy. Sort of a " step

down " behavior change. Only far more harmful to my self

esteem than a piece of candy could ever be.

As others said to me when I first came to this list:

Learn to trust yourself

Good luck to you,

Sue

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/5/00 10:26:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

joe-b@... writes:

> here are some people I

> would WANT to ostracize me, and whose ready acceptance of me would be a

> sign that something is seriously wrong somewhere!

Ain't that the truth! lol

[Guest guest]

Sue:

Thanks for the encouragement. I agree that one of the main benefits I

received from AA was finding a replacement in my life for all the time I

spent drinking, procuring and using drugs.

I have been working on finding other replacements with my therapist. The

great thing about her is she is not tied to any one " school " of therapy,

nor is she tied to any one method of staying clean and sober.

We have come to the conclusion that I will never be able to stop

completely, right now, because of the physicalogial withdrawal I will

experience from benzos and opiates.

So, I am probably taking a year leave of absence from work.From past

experience, it will probably take betwen 4-6 months gettting off all the

pills, and the rest of the time will be used trying to put humpty dumpty

back together again!

When I think back to when I got clean the last time there were a lot of

things I did besides AA. I exercised regularly. I did a lot of bike

riding and swimming, and also some toning up with light weights and

aerobics. The more I did of this, the better I felt and looked, so it

was motivation to do more and do other things to make myself feel good.

I tried to stay on some sort of schedule. I went on mega vitamins and

other herbal remedies. This time I plan on adding accupuncture and

massage to the physical part of my " program " .

I am a firm believer in acupuncture. When I was in a lot of pain a

couple of years ago, and drugs would't work because of my high

tolerance, acupuncture worked like Magic!

THis coming week I'm gong to take a ride out to a SMART group in Long

Island. I was told there are no longer any groups in NYC, but then

someone else told me they may be starting up again. So SMART will

probably be in there as a replacement too.

I won't be going to AA as a regular member. I will still go to friends

anniversaries, although since I have told a few people of my

disillusionment with AA, I might be ostracized by cerain people. Quite

frankly, in the past this would have bothered me, now I think it will

amuse me.

The only meeting I wlll still participate in is my Pills Anonymous

meeting.

It is a good group. Very tolerant. Unlike NA, you are allowed to

participate if you have used that day. This is social too. After the

meetig whoever wants to, goes out to this restaurant for dinner. What is

nice about the way it is done, you don't need an " invitation " or be a

member of the " in clique " . Everyone who wants to go, goes. Most meetings

the cliques don't go out of their way asking people they don't know to

come out with them.

What really endeared this group to me was when I walked in 3 months ago

after not having been there in over a year, no one " reprimanded " me for

slippping, In fact, no one asked if and what I was using. I shared that

on my own later on.

Nobody made the idiotic, selfish remark, that they were " glad I went out

and did the experimenting for them. " No one came up to me with

religious zeal, telling me that I need God, Noboldy said to do the

steps. They just all pretty much said they were glad I'm going to give

it a try again, and I could tell in their eyes that they meant it.

Well, I got carried away in my post again.

Sorry for taking up so mcuh time.

Originally Mikena@...

Hi Mike,

You said that AA worked for you because you were doing some-

thing other than drinking and drugging. You hit it right on

here. A change in behavior. The behavior was changed to

something other than drugging. A new behavior took it's place.

But the new behavior(AA) ends up being " addicting " and dangerous

to mental health as well! Now what to do?

Replace the AA behavior.

Right now, I am trying to quit smoking by replacing my cigar-

ettes with sugar free candy. Well, geez, I don't want to be

chomping on this candy for the rest of my life either, so

eventually that behavior will have to change too.

So, I guess AA was kind of like the candy. Sort of a " step

down " behavior change. Only far more harmful to my self

esteem than a piece of candy could ever be.

As others said to me when I first came to this list:

Learn to trust yourself

Good luck to you,

Sue

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[Guest guest]

At 10:17 05/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

>I might be ostracized by cerain people.

Hah! I know that one. I now see it as flattering. There are some people I

would WANT to ostracize me, and whose ready acceptance of me would be a

sign that something is seriously wrong somewhere!

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

At 12:59 05/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

> > here are some people I

> > would WANT to ostracize me, and whose ready acceptance of me would be a

> > sign that something is seriously wrong somewhere!

>

>Ain't that the truth! lol

But just so this doesn't leave the wrong impression, I said " There are " ,

not " here are " ...!

Joe B.