Re: atheist AA

[Guest guest]

Dear People,

On the perennial topic of AA/religion, do you know

wwww.churchofgodanonymous

?

These are real spooks -- explicitly straight out of AA -- founder is

12stepKing -- REAL spooks -- read on into their stuff and you'll find their

Nazi cold-bloodedness when it comes to social philosophy, etc. (Their

philsophy is identical to thast expressed by the " matter of fact " " don't

believe any of that crap " line the Satanists are now dishing up . . . Sure

it must be a good idea to kill people who won't take responsibility for

their recoveries, stands to reason, don't it . . is about where they're at

between the lines). If people say AA is not a religion show them this site,

which should close the debate with anyone reasonable. It's a hideous

travesty of religion, and as a Chritian I think " the God of AA " and the God

I worship are UTTERLY distinct. Those who go down the AA path of " any God

will do " are heading in one direction theologically, hellwards, and satan

is the guy behind the liberal mask of " worship who/what you like -- yeh why

not your sponsors a*hole, --.

Rant rave rant -- but this " Church of God Anonymous " is the BENDIN END.

AA does effect what Bill W. with Jung's help called a " massive emotional

displacement " -- it displaces self-doubt etc with morally lethal doses of

approval and high pressure self-esteem so you're displaced into an ecstasy

of ignorant self-righteousness. It works if you work it!!

Doug.

Yrs

Doug.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>CC: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:55:28 -0400

>

>

>

>Jan,

>

>You bring up a good point. I remember reading that early in SOS members

>would bash one religious viewpoint or another, which is typical of

>atheist humor. However, when it was evident that religious people could

>object to XA as well, they tried to knock it off.

>

>I think it is important to honor all religious paths, as you suggest, and

>the choice to follow none al all, as well, In my exchanges with Doug,

>for example, I was not arguing his right to belief, but rather I was

>attempting to speak up for the validity of all options (within reason.)

>One mistake of some liberals, I think, is mockery of religion. As a

>member of the religious left, I know that religious values and left

>politics are not mutually exclusive. and do don't build bridges through

>mockery.

>

>I guess that's why I try not to mock AA members. Those that are in the

>fellowships for a while and like it, I think, are entitled to it. I did

>recently complain about this coffee cup as God idea, however. I mean

>there is a limit. I think that kind of nonsense demeans belief and lack

>of belief. Besides, it's only a bait and switch tactic until newcomers

>come to see God as AA understands God.

>

>Finally, I think that AA's faith healing will " work " for a small group of

>people who choose abstinence and believe that God can get people sober

>and keep them that way. Should these people be mocked? Again, I don't

>think so,

>

>My complaint is that AA is presented as a million other things than what

>it is. If I was told from the start that I was being offered a religion,

>I would have checked it out, and not finding it in keeping with my

>beliefs, quickly left. Instead,I was told that the usual line about keep

>coming back, and it will make sense blah, blah, blah.

>

>So anyway, thanks for posting Jan. You bring up a good point. I will

>try to stay conscious of it.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I knew next to nothing about AA before I was advised to go in 1985 during a

hard time when my drinking was becoming conspicuous. By my brother actually

(who subsequently went, very briefly, to meetings himself and now regards

the whole bit as a no-no).

I was high on the steps and on meeting my stepBunny wife for the first

couple of months, but read a book called " Controlled Drinking " which caused

me to question the fellowship. She was about to leave me at this point for

doubting the AAword (she uttered divorce threats at three monthly intervals

throughout our marriage).

I wasn't drinking or using -- 100% clean nicotine addict throughout. After

1 year I tried to begin moderate drinking, but she freaked out totally and

left me. Came back only when I agreed to go into Treatment. It was in

treatment that I finally chucked the whole bit, or rather shortly after

coming out -- the bullshit I heard in there was unbelievable. My wife is

also a " trained " Minnesota Counsellor -- there's a big sick scene in quiet

West Wales where we lived and she still does centring on " recovery.org.uk " .

Hopkins is supporting them, a big Welsh name.

Anyway, she fully expected me to do instant relapse etc, but nothing

happened. I drank moderately for eight years, can of beer about nine in the

evening and that was all. Ocaasional more serious indulgence, but only when

I was away on a climbing trip or otherwise out of sight. We had a strongly

monogamous marriage and a sex life to die for. But always the phantom of

the fellowship in the cupoboard at the back of her head.

By nine years of marriage she's big in Coda and not going to AA/NA -- so she

decides we can start smoking dope. (Also comes out with some weird stuff

amounting to how she knows the really top recovery people do have the odd

toot, tipple, and toke -- have any of you heard this?) Great. We smoke

dope. She decides we gotta stop smoking dope. She got some form of bad

trip from her intense highs. Worth dwelling on this perhaps -- her main

" bad past " stuff is in the amazing promiscuity she did in the late 1970s --

real pincushion -- she had been abused as a child. So she was unstable in

our sex life. For months she'd want it dirty, then suddenly call a " no no " .

Back to good clean none of that nonsense please. The nonsense often

involved fantasies she began. She was scared of her own eroticism, and her

terror of drinking was partly that if she did she KNEW she'd start screwing

around. The two things are synonymous with her. With cannabis, our sex

life was amazing -- not " dirty " especially, but a powerful experience alll

round. It was because of her problem with her powerful sexuality that she

got panicky and had to stop smoking. Back to meetings in freak-out and born

again total abstinence = the END for us and the kids. Anyway, the poor

bloody woman has always been too scared to move an inch and had a

pathological need to have the whole family do everything her way. We went

through several failed business ventures together to promote her work as an

artists. She is a good artist (and I'm a good poet) but she always had to

be in the driving seat. Sort of monomania that the steps only encourage.

Anyway, now she's clean and serene and the queen of the scene and has some

newcomer trailing along as Mr Stable Relationship. " Hi this is Mr Stable

Relationship, not he's not an oxymoron, he's on programme " . My kids say he's

a fat loser, but I bet you he's workiung them steps like nobody's business

to keep snug up with NAhotstuff!!!

Love and peace and death to stepNazis

Doug.

p.s. attaching poems touching on my obsession/the subject -- you asked for

it!!!!

ORGONAUTS

The trouble is we entered outer space,

Came through to somewhere neither dark nor light,

Then slept, to wake and let the world take place.

We didn't hurry so we lost the race

And got dismissed to different states of night;

The trouble is we entered outer space

Together, not infrequently, the base

Where one thing in our lives was always right,

Then slept to wake and let the world take place.

Your subtle, my conspicuous, disgrace

Estrange us from what instincts might invite;

The trouble is we entered outer space,

Flew up through time's dissolving carapace,

Got, cognitively speaking, out of sight,

Then slept, to wake and let the world take place.

Out there we turn, disclose a single face

That won't come back and doesn't look contrite;

The trouble is we entered outer space,

Then slept, to wake and let the world take place.

CONTACT

Sad day, a patch where I crouch

Fixed to the spot where the warmth was,

Choking on the longing to swap

Forgivenesses with you,

Not to have to watch the baby die,

To see what really matters now

Making distance, passing me by.

Quite far into the life without you,

Somewhere else where we turn to meet

By coincidence at a crossing of streets,

And the world of loss

Is as real as the charge

The connection sparks with

Till you switch it off.

Places we are, coming into being

When the hurt's so big

And the stake's so wild

On the one bet of your life,

And all the other ways we could be

Just by choosing differently

Are there beside us like the dead we love.

DORA, or, Deadly Orgone Radiation.

" A bad conscience creates malignant behaviour. You make somebody else bad in

order to free yourself from responsibility. We call that the Emotional

Plague. " --

Wilhelm Reich.

She loves you, of course, wants you to be

The special woman who deserves the best,

Not this kitchen blotched with damp and grease,

The dirt settled on skirtings, and a man

Whose disapproval's your worst enemy.

So she's killing your marriage. The half-life

Of her transuranic emotions seeds the air

With minute black specks, a swaying spawn,

Your mind and his its jelly, a bad drift

In worsening weather, falling pressure.

When she comes back you'll tell her

How you dumped him out past the swamps

After giving him one last fuck,

Left him falling into the ending,

Lost in a great slaughter of starlings.

On the Beach II

Surf rushing back through banked shingle

Is you withdrawing from the world

As I recall between thrown stones

We turn in separate orbits now.

Systole and diastole, ebb, flow,

Consciousness registered as loss

Resuming traffic with the day

Then falling into all you're not.

I call this life, my children too,

The reasons vague and all your own,

A wind that's shifting on the sand,

Some process that you're going through.

I go on cancelling contempt,

It doesn't suit, it will not do,

Especially when it's object's you,

For whom my love is always new.

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

I thought the poems were related to your marriage, given the history you have

posted here.

Should I print these to keep them or are they in your third book?

I am in awe of your mastery of (if I remember correctly) the villanelle.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Dear Kayleigh,

>Thank you very much, you've made my day! I have published (I think Amazon

>have got some of my stuff) and have a third book coming out soon, " The Welsh

>Book of the Dead " (a title about which I've got mixed feelings). The

>forthcoming book is dominated by love-lorn stuff centering on the protracted

>break up with my dear benighted 12-step wife. I'm to close to the centre of

>it still too know how I feel about the poetry and I keep a low profile about

>some of it for the same reasons. The stuff you saw was all in that

>category, so I'm especially glad to hear you liked it.

>Also glad to hear from you, as, after getting utterly bombed with Emails

>flying around the group, it's been a very slow day in comparison. Thought

>maybe I'd been struck off for being an argumentative loony or something

>(which would come as no surprise -- I have my suspicions).

>Well, thanks again -- I'll post a bit more verse at some point perhaps, but

>I don't want ot turn the group into my self-publishing venture!

>Yours,

>.

>p.s. The quote from W. Reich with " Dora " seems to fit XA very well indeed.

>

>http://geocities.com/bouglaf

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Dear Kaleigh,

I threw the poems in with my letter to , as he seemed interested in

hearing some details of my personal situation. It's reassuring to know

poetry does have a voice of its own, that my verse has been heard, and

understood. Thanks for your kind remarks about my villanelles -- I was

obsessed with it as a form for some time and wrote about a dozen, though

I've pruned those down to about four or five for the forthcoming book.

Print them by all means. They are in the book, and I hope it'll be out in

the States. I rather assume you're in the States -- am I right Kayleigh?

Do you write yourself? I'm trying to get an online creative wrtiiting

agency going, but it's early days -- little site at

http://www.geocities.com/editorial_uk.

Will re-build it after I've completed my present HTML overhaul of Gallery

Bouglaf at

http://www/geocities.com/bouglaf [interesting(?) entry in guestbook on

this one, which I think is from churchofgodanonymous.]

To prove you shouldn't encourage poets, I'm enclosing a couple more

villanelles and a Petrarchan sonnet, agasin from the heart of a marriage

being hammered to death by the 12-step cult of pathological individualism.

yours,

.

Provisional

What-is-the-case slips through the net of speech,

Something to do with missing you, the blues

Elaborating silence, out of reach

Of any lesson circumstance might teach.

The props are old harmonicas and booze.

What-is-the-case slips through the net of speech.

It was the same out walking on the beach,

The light upon the sea and other clues

Elaborating silence, out of reach,

Our distance, our disjunction each from each,

Our bondage to the styles we think we choose.

What-is-the-case slips through the net of speech,

Renews its half-life after every breach,

Love's not the sort of thing you want to lose.

Elaborating silence, out of reach,

It would not do to use the word " beseech " ,

Unless you're going to tighten all the screws;

What-is-the-case slips through the net of speech,

Elaborating silence, out of reach.

Remission

This is my life, these days filled with what's real,

The streets, this cafe opposite the station,

And each November moment's destination

Is where I am and what I have to feel.

With you here now, both honouring the deal

To talk as friends despite our separation,

There's coffee and a tactful registration

Of what our touching knees do not conceal.

Days pass the world along and it stays packed

With all the tribes of objects days contain.

The moments still arrive and one more fact

Is that we have been lovers once again,

And, shrunk into myself, I find the act

Is something like a memory of rain.

Chanson d'amour.

If nothing changes, will it just get worse?

I'll stay with you if you don't go away,

Enjoy the blessings, tolerate the curse.

Forget the moral logic we rehearse,

Or did, when anger had its piece to say;

If nothing changes will it just get worse?

The past regrets it cannot reimburse

Those customers whose memories decay.

Enjoy the blessings, tolerate the curse.

Despite the changes we must still immerse

Ourselves in change to have somewhere to stay.

If nothing changes will it just get worse,

Intensify this abstract grudge I nurse,

Provoking clearer statements of dismay?

Enjoy the blessings, tolerate the curse.

Beside you, my misgivings all disperse,

But here the future's subject to delay.

If nothing changes will it just get worse?

Enjoy the blessings, tolerate the curse.

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

Posting this as possibly general interest -- NA administrator-type with

healthy misgivings but still on party line. I think I posted the earlier

part of this correspondence. Contains intersting admissions of power-sick

senior operators in NA -- a matter very close to my heart on the local basis

to which he refers, as I blame them for wrecking the life of my family.

Best,

Doug.

Dear

Thanks for yours -- makes a lot of sense (though I stop short of

agreeing with you on such points as " necessary brainwashing " ). I was

not 's " partner " , with respect, but her husband in the sacrament of

marriage -- she's a beautiful person and I love her no less, despite the

fact we've been apart three years, and she's now got some NA recovery

boy in tow (it's got to have a funny side). But there's no funny side

in the hegemonic, incestuous, power-addicted know-nothings who thrive in

Aberystwyth, and it's not my disease or my denial talking when I say

that these people did a great deal to keep from carrying on

through our marriage during difficult times like we might have done.

Everything wrong had to be the " disease " -- 's an artist and a hurt

child inside -- she's not rational analytic and she was totally prey in

her fears and vulnerability to the viciously separatist dogma and power

of the sick inner cadre and was sponsored into quitting the marriage by

Barbie " the Terminator " Pat, Porsche owning airhead 1st class and wife

(?partner) of Spamboy Menzies (sorry can't resist having a go at these

two!!). Before we broke up she'd been in two minds aboutNA/AA -- was

" only " going to Coda. We smoked dope together for a while -- no

problems till other things made life difficult and ran back to

meetings. That was the end. The one way street of NA/AA thought said

it was chaos and death if she didn't leave me. And she's been hard core

NA ever since. So so sad, because God loved us very much and gave us

the two most beautiful little children on earth, who now only see their

Dad once every couple of months while Mum gets on with her new NA life.

I left Aberystwyth six months ago and live in Cardiff now. The place is

a sink unless you're in with one of the cliques. Our bad luck was

in with " your lot " . This is damamge, guy, DAMAGE. Don't trouble to

quote the literature at me -- I now it well enouygh, was hard line NA

myself at one time and put through treatment on moral blackmail to keep

our marriage going in its early days. No, we didn't stand much of a

chance with the heavy metal zombies like Pat and Graham running 's

mind. It's a complex story, and one to which the simplistic stuff of

the steps and their fascistic practice can never do justice to. You

sound like a member of the human race after all. Good luck with staying

clean, but don't go putting your alleged " disease " before the honest

promptings of your mind and heart.

Best wishes,

Doug.

wrote:

>I actually agree with quite a lot of what you say here - although not with

>the

>language that you use to get your point over.

>

>I'm not a member of AA (though have been) - I'm a member of NA, which is

>pretty much

>the same thing, but I find it more relaxed and more broadminded.

>

>Having said that, NA -

>1) Does not claim any universal efficacy of it's recovery programme:

>Here's the " offical " view:

>

> " Its members recognize that NA is but one organization among many

>addressing the

>problem of drug addiction. NA members feel they have had significant

>success in

>addressing their own addiction problems, but NA does not claim to have a

>programme

>that will work for all addicts under all circumstances or that its

>therapeutic views

>should be universally adopted. "

>

>2) regarding addiction as a disease:

>

> " The Narcotics Anonymous programme describes addiction as a disease. NA

>does not

>qualify its use of the term 'disease' in any medical or specialized

>therapeutic

>sense, nor does NA make any attempt to persuade others of the correctness

>of its

>view. NA asserts only that its members have found acceptance of addiction

>as a

>disease to be effective in helping them come to terms with their

>condition. "

>

>Up to a point, I think that some form of " brainwashing " is necessary in the

>very

>early days of recovery. Like chanting a mantra or something - just to keep

>the brain

>occupied with other things for a few weeks while the person's body/mind

>slowly

>becomes free of drugs and/or booze.

>

>And I don't have any problem with the " chronic, incurable and fatal " bit.

>I personally know it's chronic (i.e. gets worse); I know it's incurable

>(i.e. never

>goes away completely); and I know it's fatal (more than 30 of my friends

>have died

>through drugs or booze, and more are dying right now).

>

>Having said all that. I must say categorically that I despise treatment

>centres (and

>yes, I've been in 'em) and the staff that run them - which operate on a

>fear/shame

>based philosophy, backed up by emotional terrorism.

>I won't name the one I particularly have in mind - but you might guess.

>

>But just because there are some disgusting treatment centres, doesn't mean

>that the

>whole 12 step recovery philosophy is a wate of time. I keep the two

>completely

>seperate - as they should be.

>

> > You come on like a businessman, and business is business -- keep

> > the old recovery machine churning 'em out on the relapse-and-back double

> > your money route. Why do you pick on Aberystwyth? Is it because you've

> > such an expemplary crew of airhead front-liners as Graham, Pat, Joe,

> > , , and their enchanted minions?

>

>I'm not sure if you know who I am. Let me clear it up for you.

>I don't work for Ceredigion Contact - I'm just a volunteer who wrote their

>website.

>I don't live in Aberystwyth. Used to, but now live in Bristol.

>

>As I understand it, you used to be s partner. I didn't know her very

>well, but

>she came to the Saturday NA meetings for a while a few years back. I wish

>her well.

>Got nothing against her.

>

>As for the other people you mention. I have little or no respect for any of

>them.

>For different reasons in each case. The recovery " business " as you call it,

>in

>Aberystwyth is - by the nature of the place - almost incestuous. That's

>because it's

>such a small town stuck in the middle of nowhere. So the sort of situation

>that you

>seem to be alluding to - i.e. an " inner circle " of recovery gurus, can

>easily come

>into being. In a larger, less isolated, town it just wouldn't happen.

>

>I've been back in Bristol for 18 months now - after 5 years in Aberystwyth.

>I'm glad to be back here (it's my home town). I was beginning to find Aber

>to be

>very stifling.

>So - it was time to move on.

>

>Maybe it's time for you to move on now as well.

>

>Take it easy

>

>Chris

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi :

You're cracking me up here. Ok I'll bite. I'm curious as to why you

keep mentioning that guest book entry?

If it is from the CGA they may have found you through this list or

via the referrer information your browser passed along if you visited

their site directly from your site. (one reason I don't surf without

my firewall running blocking referrer information).

It may be, if it is from CGA, the author's attempt to show you his

sites stats. Whoever's site the stats are for their pretty good.

Heck of a lot of visits.

Re: atheist AA

http://www/geocities.com/bouglaf [interesting(?) entry in guestbook

on

this one, which I think is from churchofgodanonymous.]

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I'm just a humble newcomer over-excited and generally carried away with all

this E-energy whizzing around the group. I also suffer badly from writng, a

chronic, incurable, and, possibly, fatal disease (my name is Doug. and I'm a

poet. I first tried writing in primary school, never got over the buzz), so

I am a bit incontinent with pen and keyboard. Social embarrassment is the

least of it, though I regret any bad effects on others my writing may have.

I'm not interested in 12-step treatment at Writers' Anon. as I gather it

involves handing my intelligence and articulacy over to a group of zombies.

Such is denial, huh?

I mention the coganon guestbook entry in case anyone's interested in that

[particular 12-step cult (an immediate extension of AA) -- it's certainly

from them, as the " Visit me " link in my guestbook takes you strasight to

Vatican City Jim K. Coganon. (also as a ruse to get people to visit the

site).

Best wishes

yrs

Doug.

http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf

geocities.com/editorial_uk

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: atheist AA

>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:45:29 -0500

>

>Hi :

>

>You're cracking me up here. Ok I'll bite. I'm curious as to why you

>keep mentioning that guest book entry?

>

>If it is from the CGA they may have found you through this list or

>via the referrer information your browser passed along if you visited

>their site directly from your site. (one reason I don't surf without

>my firewall running blocking referrer information).

>

>It may be, if it is from CGA, the author's attempt to show you his

>sites stats. Whoever's site the stats are for their pretty good.

>Heck of a lot of visits.

>

> Re: atheist AA

>

>

>http://www/geocities.com/bouglaf [interesting(?) entry in guestbook

>on

>this one, which I think is from churchofgodanonymous.]

>

>

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