Re: atheist AA

[Guest guest]

,

What you say is what atheists are told, but I think in practice the whole

thing falls a part. First, I think that turning my life over to a group

of drunks sounds completely mad. Some in the group have never breathed a

sober moment, and will invite me to get high. There will be assorted

well meaning types who honestly want to help, but turn my life and will

over to them? I think not. I man all of this sounds nice in theory, but

I consider it very dangerous in practice. While in the first week or two

sober after years of heavy use, I agree it may help to have people in

your life who are less foggy to help one find their away around the world

without chemicals In fact therapy or vocational rehabilitation may be in

order. Group therapy or an organization like SMART may come in handy

also. But the goal is to learn how to think and how to handle one's

life, not to " turn it over " to others.

I do understand that a certain kind of religious person may feel that God

(hp) got them sober or keeps them sober. But is it safe to entrust

abstinence to any group, drunks or otherwise. And then there are

religious types who don't believe that God gets involved in sobriety.

They may stay sober for God, but it is they that get and keep themselves

sober.

The line about my best thinking has always irked me. Yes, in fact, since

abstinence is my goal, it is in fact my best thinking that will keep me

sober. There is nobody, IMO, I repeat nobody that can do the job for me.

I guess this is why I still consider AA faith healing. An exterior force

(AA, the group) will do what you cannot do. Believe that you can't stay

sober and you will prove yourself right. Believe they can get and keep

you sober and for a small percentage this will be a self fulfilling

prophesy as well.

I would think though that faith healing is not likely even fro the

devout. Doubt can enter at anytime. Faith in God fails, group members

let you down. Unless you have learned how to think for yourself and act

for yourself, you're screwed.

So to finish this rambling post, I still feel that " turning " your life

over to a " group of drunks " is a dangerous and vague proposition. Few

are the atheists, even drinking or otherwise who will suspend their

reason in order to " let the miracle happen. " Better to dry up and get on

with living. Any other road, in my personal experience as well as

opinion is a recipe for disaster. Unless you can " take the leap of

faith, " and accept that God (group of drunks) is doing fro you what you

cannot do for yourself. I think it is small wonder that so many non

religious turn to RR, SMART and SOS where you can have your life and live

it too.

All the best,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Really no offence taken per se, but this list is very diverse and would

suffer if it reflected any one religion or philosophy imo. As for

humanist values, I find it limiting to offer up any one system as the

truth. All the major religions offer ideas on how to live and love

together. Many philosophers had the same concerns. I am a Unitarian

Universalist. As such, I will accept truth from anywhere I can get it.

East or West, North or South. Christian,Buddhist, pagan or humanist.

All major religious systems also point up the limitations of their time,I

believe too, however. That's why I think it is safer to avoid picking

any one religion or philosophy as " the truth. " After all, many tell me

that Saint had a big problem with homosexuality. I believe that our

modern idea of a gay identity was so far removed form modern experience

that St. 's thought on the subject are completely irrelevant, for

example.

I also cannot accept the theology of Bill , although I bet his

mixture of old time religion and Freudian tidbits seemed like a truly

radical in his day. ('s own politics aside.) My memory or classes

in American religion come in handy in understanding Wisonisn, I think.

It reminds me of the Calvinist/Puritan thinking of our colonial period.

After " hitting bottom, " one is saved, which was God's will all along.

It's a type of conversion experience. Remember that early AA was

unapologetically Christian, although it was the offbeat Oxford group band

.. It was only after a dispute with agnostics that the as you understand

Him was added.

Many born again groups call AA a cult on the grounds that Jesus Christ

isn't spelled out as the higher power. Other religious people do not

believe that God performs " miracles' like getting people sober and

keeping them that way. so I do understand that there are reasons why a

person of any given religion way oppose AA, especially when membership is

coerced.

I am interested in hearing what happened with your family. And as

someone considering seminary, your theological stance interests me. I

think that on a list like this you will have an easier time if you speak

for yourself on religious matters. There is less room for offence,

however unintended that way,

[Guest guest]

Bjorn,

One of the dilemmas of discussing AA theology, I think is that individual

members are all over the map really. I had a sponsor who insisted that

Jesus was God, and there was no room for any other belief. ( He was

Catholic.) He never would have gone for the Jesus as nice guy stuff. At

the time I was looking for a way to incorporate some of the teaching of

Jesus into my life, while rejecting other posts. He said this was

totally inappropriate.

While I did simply stop bringing up theological topics, I did think,'if

you can't bring up theological topics with your sponsor, that with whom

are you supposed to have this as I understand him crap.

Today my views on theology are quite different. I am happy that I now

know that God and recovery really do not have to mix. It makes life and

abstinence much simpler.

sean

[Guest guest]

Jan,

You bring up a good point. I remember reading that early in SOS members

would bash one religious viewpoint or another, which is typical of

atheist humor. However, when it was evident that religious people could

object to XA as well, they tried to knock it off.

I think it is important to honor all religious paths, as you suggest, and

the choice to follow none al all, as well, In my exchanges with Doug,

for example, I was not arguing his right to belief, but rather I was

attempting to speak up for the validity of all options (within reason.)

One mistake of some liberals, I think, is mockery of religion. As a

member of the religious left, I know that religious values and left

politics are not mutually exclusive. and do don't build bridges through

mockery.

I guess that's why I try not to mock AA members. Those that are in the

fellowships for a while and like it, I think, are entitled to it. I did

recently complain about this coffee cup as God idea, however. I mean

there is a limit. I think that kind of nonsense demeans belief and lack

of belief. Besides, it's only a bait and switch tactic until newcomers

come to see God as AA understands God.

Finally, I think that AA's faith healing will " work " for a small group of

people who choose abstinence and believe that God can get people sober

and keep them that way. Should these people be mocked? Again, I don't

think so,

My complaint is that AA is presented as a million other things than what

it is. If I was told from the start that I was being offered a religion,

I would have checked it out, and not finding it in keeping with my

beliefs, quickly left. Instead,I was told that the usual line about keep

coming back, and it will make sense blah, blah, blah.

So anyway, thanks for posting Jan. You bring up a good point. I will

try to stay conscious of it.

[Guest guest]

Doug,

I am getting back to the post you left concerning you wife. It sounds

like she is a fully converted 12 step believer. I read a lot of pain in

your posts, and your love of your children is quite evident.

Did you run against 12 step after seeing the changes in your wife, or

did you previously hod those views. i know that before I had personal

involvement in AA that I thought pretty much like every one else, that it

was the best place for those with drinking problems.

yours is another example of how XA can break up families.

[Guest guest]

I think I was one of the first to bite doug's head off on that one, so

let me be one of the first to jump on his side. I believe that we need

to look at, not so much as what was said, but what malice there was

behind it. I really believe that he meant no harm. He seems to have been

aiming more for flippant than degrading. And face it- we all make

mistakes. All we can do is apologize and move on.

B. wrote:

>

> Gee, Doug, you can gift-wrap that insult as pretty as you like, but all of

> the PeaceLove & Understanding buffers you can come up with don't remove the

> sting of that insult.

> -eth

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry no guy -- no offense intended. My own attack on AA is largely

premised on the travesty of Judaeo-Xian theology and value on which they

base their abominable charade. I retract the rather categorical remark.

There are many " good " atheists in the judaeo-Xtian sense -- they just

confuse God with history -- no wonder they don't like Him.

Happy days,

doug.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:41:57 -0500

>

>Insulting, however, you are.

>============

>douglas houston wrote:

> >

> > I may be nuts but an atheist I ain't

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[Guest guest]

I was told that HP can be anything, as long as it isn't you. (with the

assumption that using yourself as your HP is what got you in trouble in the

first place). I guess that the supposedly therapeutic effect of

relinquishing the driver's seat of your life to a HP is supposed to happen

regardless of what you decide to imagine taking over for you. So using the

group as one's HP (G-roup O-f D-runks) was encouraged for atheists - " they

have been able to get sober & you haven't so they have power you don't ... "

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>CC: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 18:47:46 -0400

>

>

>

>hi Sue,

>

>Well I have met atheists in AA who say that while they don't believe in

>God, they do use the group as a power greater themselves. As a non

>theist, I don't find these mental gymnastics worth it, but I guess they

>do. How exactly is a group a higher power? What does this mean? Can't

>that be dangerous?

>

>sean

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[Guest guest]

Agreement from me, . BTW, belated Easter notes: did some searching for

origins of Easter 'cause I remembered some pagan-roots (like Yuletide) and

found fun stuff describing the relation of Spring Equinox, fertility

goddesses, the hare, the lily & the egg as fertility symbols, etc. I also

found some fundamentalist Xtian sites exhorting " true, Biblical " Xtians not

to celebrate Easter at all due to its pagan origins.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>CC: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:23:51 -0400

>

>

>

>Hi Doug,

>

>As a non theist, it still rubs me the wrong way when the Judeo Christian

>tradition is used as the standard of good. While IMO the Bible is a

>great source of myth, it is fair at best in offering moral guidelines.

>It has been my experience that an openness to global myth is a more

>complete way to explore goodness and morality. I will admit though that

>many Christians and Jews are good by humanist values. ( Reversing the

>sentence shows what I am talking about

>

>.)

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[Guest guest]

, I do not want to censor Doug or ascribe some malicious intent to his

words. I just wanted to communicate that I felt insulted and belittled by

his comment, despite it's being couched in good will.

It's just that I am very used to the pattern of " nicey nicey STING nicey

nicey " . My fundamentalist Xtian relatives make this an art form, never

break out of their warm smiles while condemning and judging and dismissing

me. I'm sure often they don't even realize they are doing it - they seem to

take their metaphysical view as a given, so who could be insulted by their

assumption of what is true?

So, yes, I'm being overly sensitive and personalizing and I don't mean to

ruin a perfectly civil discussion.

I think I disagree about the malice (in general, not as ascribed to Doug).

Anyone who has attended an AA meeting can imagine how galling it can be to

experience the smug paternalistic serene judgment/dismissiveness of

" friendly " old-timers, and outright malice is rarely shown. Flippancy,

however, is rampant - think of all of the one-liners. The delivery doesn't

soften the message.

BTW Doug, I'm as they say often wrong but never in doubt I will try in

the future to state my own thoughts rather than to just react defensively to

yours. I enjoy the fact that we don't all agree and hash it out anyway.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:48:32 -0500

>

>I think I was one of the first to bite doug's head off on that one, so

>let me be one of the first to jump on his side. I believe that we need

>to look at, not so much as what was said, but what malice there was

>behind it. I really believe that he meant no harm. He seems to have been

>aiming more for flippant than degrading. And face it- we all make

>mistakes. All we can do is apologize and move on.

>

>

> B. wrote:

> >

> > Gee, Doug, you can gift-wrap that insult as pretty as you like, but all

>of

> > the PeaceLove & Understanding buffers you can come up with don't remove

>the

> > sting of that insult.

> > -eth

> >

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[Guest guest]

Now Doug, you had to go and piss me off with the god bless (kidding ...

pretty much).

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:41:26 GMT

>

> --

>thanks -- I'm sorry, I am (arguably) quite a screwed up guy at the moment

>and regret my tendency to let it out by being provocative on the net. But,

>to paraphrase my original, " I may be flippant but malicious I ain't " .

>There's a freshness and life for me in hearing from you all and I've no

>desire to make myself persona non grata with the sanest bunch of folks I've

>met in a long time. God bless, , and happy days,

>Doug.

>

>

>________________________________________________________________________

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>

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

You got it in one -- " flippant more than degrading " -- I plead guilty to

the latter charge, again crave the indulgence of those I may have offended

for my untoward flippancy (always a devilish trait), and assure all that I

am generally harmless. (sounds like one of the steps!) For further evidence

of my harmlessness and unquestionable sanity see my site (slow loader) at

geocities.com/bouglaf

-- complete with a couple of digs at step Nazis and my beloved ex-wife step

Nazi -- foul as hell within with " malignant person al growth " .

Doug.

p.s. -- forgive me pleeeeese Beeeeee

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[Guest guest]

> It's just that I am very used to the pattern of " nicey nicey STING

nicey

> nicey " . My fundamentalist Xtian relatives make this an art form,

never

> break out of their warm smiles while condemning and judging and

dismissing

> me. I'm sure often they don't even realize they are doing it - they

seem to

> take their metaphysical view as a given, so who could be insulted

by

their

> assumption of what is true?

arrgh! That passive aggressive stuff really bugs me. I'm working on

it, but it still leaves me with that " wait a minute, what just

happened? " , slightly confused, slightly angry feeling. And if I ever

try to turn it around, I can see the hackles rise. Somehow, when they

do it, they're just sharing their beliefs; but when I do it, I'm

attacking.

> So, yes, I'm being overly sensitive and personalizing and I don't

mean to

> ruin a perfectly civil discussion.

When I began posting here in January (actually it's been about a

year,

but I took a 2-3 month break over the holidays), I had a BIG chip on

my shoulder (hehe, maybe it was my 1-year chip:). I look back at what

I wrote then and am very grateful that folks now make me feel as

accepted and welcome as I do here.

> BTW Doug, I'm as they say often wrong but never in doubt

I like this! I may have to borrow it sometime...

Judith

[Guest guest]

--

thanks -- I'm sorry, I am (arguably) quite a screwed up guy at the moment

and regret my tendency to let it out by being provocative on the net. But,

to paraphrase my original, " I may be flippant but malicious I ain't " .

There's a freshness and life for me in hearing from you all and I've no

desire to make myself persona non grata with the sanest bunch of folks I've

met in a long time. God bless, , and happy days,

Doug.

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

The line " Your best thinking got you here " has always irked me as well, but for

a different reason. My initial reaction was " Okay, my best thinking got me to

AA, and you guys think this is the best if not only place for me to be, so

what's wrong with my thinking? "

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:41:11 SEAN P CASHIN wrote, inter alia:

>

>The line about my best thinking has always irked me. Yes, in fact, since

>abstinence is my goal, it is in fact my best thinking that will keep me

>sober. There is nobody, IMO, I repeat nobody that can do the job for me.

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm interested in your thoughts about this theme. I'm a materialist in the

sense that I think the concept of God and religion is a result of the

evolution from instinct ot consciousness, but I'm offended about the way AA

is mocking the fundamental religious concepts of my cultural heritage.

One of the most outrageous consequences of this imbecile thinking, stemming

from the most inbreed part of Kansas, is that they think USA is God's own

country.

I've heard one of them on TV. He said. " If USA is earning money on

pollution, than it's God's will that it's not dangerous. Because everything

that's good for USA, is good for God! "

I'm not quoting this word by word, but this was his explanation why he

didn't think USA should do anything about the global greenhouse effect.

The same idiocy is prevailing in AA. They think Jesus was a good guy who

unjustly was executed by this nasty Roman governor. But they are not going

to be executed, they are almost as good as Jesus, and they are fighting on

God's side against the evil.

They don't understand the fact that had Jesus not been crucified, there

would have been no Christianity.

They are God's children, theologians are blocking for the Truth, as they

feel it.

AA came from a cult that called themselves for the first Christians (don't

remember the exact name).

Honestly, the core group that holds this thinking is dangerous, even though

the single person participating in it may be innocent and harmless.

Actually, some times the thinking of what they could accomplish with the

best conscience of all, scare me sometimes.

For some years ago I read, in order to understand AA better, a Danish book

about the Oxford Group Movement; the precursor of AA.

It was written in 1936 by a Danish theologian named N.H. Søe, later a

professor in Dogmatics at the University of Copenhagen. Historically he's

viewed as a dogmatic Lutheran-Evangelical person. This means a decent way of

living. You're living in the Belief of Jesus, trying to improve. You're not

trying to oust him in the eyes of God by to overdoing him in the battle for

God.

Well, N.H. Søe said in 1936, that the road of the Oxford Group Movement, how

god fearing it might seem, would lead to the same conditions as those ruling

Germany for the time being.

Therefore, I have the greatest respect for theology, but not for believers.

Actually I believe a lot more in theology than in religion.

Maybe we just reach the same conclusion from different angles? Maybe you

mean something quite different?

Bjørn

douglas houston wrote:

> Sorry no guy -- no offense intended. My own attack on AA is largely

> premised on the travesty of Judaeo-Xian theology and value on which they

> base their abominable charade. I retract the rather categorical remark.

> There are many " good " atheists in the judaeo-Xtian sense -- they just

> confuse God with history -- no wonder they don't like Him.

> Happy days,

> doug.

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >Subject: Re: atheist AA

> >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:41:57 -0500

> >

> >Insulting, however, you are.

> >============

> >douglas houston wrote:

> > >

> > > I may be nuts but an atheist I ain't

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> Honestly, the core group that holds this thinking is dangerous,

even

though

> the single person participating in it may be innocent and harmless.

This makes me think of the lyrics of Lennon's " Imagine. " Cruelty

is so much easier when you identify with a group, rather than with an

individual. Especially if that group does not acknowledge the

difference between their own human thoughts and impulses, and God's

will.

Judith

[Guest guest]

Dear Bjorn,

Thanks for your interesting message. My first response is to recall the

proverb " The road to Hell is paved with good intentions " . There is

certainly a terrifying compatibility between what some people take for truth

and the most authoritarian exercise of political power. Hitler was quite

happy with the Church, unless they got out of line -- if they did they went

they way of Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer and other Christians who were

viciously executed by the Nazis along with a lot of honorable Priussian

military types who were involved with them in the attempted assination of

Hitler in 1944. I know little of the Oxford Group -- I knew AA was sprung

from them and I have to say it reinforces my prejudices to learn that they

had a Nazi mentality or something compatible with one from your references

to the work of N.H. Soe. Britain in the 1930s had a lot of Nazi

sympathizers in high places -- there is never any shortage of people who

will sell out on anything to keep things stable socially. It took

Churchill's almost revolutionary energies to rouse the country to stand

against Hitler.

I am what I suppose a theologian would call antinomian in my faith/beliefs

-- but God speaks most clearly in Isaiah 58 in His denunciations of

" religion " as a matter of self-righteousness and lip-service. AA are World

Champs in the self-righteousness league, utterly blissed out on their own

moral infallibility in their one big thing, booze/abstinence. I too dread

the possibilities raised by the " religious " fascism of their beliefs and the

acceptability of those beliefs to many in power.

Freedom and best wishes,

Doug.

http://www.geocities.com/bouglaf

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[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Good to have your thoughtful letter. It amuses me that the same people who

will niggle on about lack of historical proof for Biblical events are often

those who are most ready to believe some almost totally unfounded assertion

that St was gay. The guesses from what he meant by " a thorn in my

flesh " run from stomach disorders to his wife. Be that as it may, I agree on

reflection that I do err on the dogmatic side myself, though my " dogma " is

that of one who must consider himself an antinomian Xian, and, as St

would be the first to tell you, that's a risky position in itself. I can

only believe in One Revelation as having an Absolute truth value, but that

Revelation makes clear that " In my Father's House there are many mansions "

and " They are not all Israel who are of Israel " .

My wife and I met at AA. I was a churchgoer, she wasn't. She stayed pretty

well " on program " throughout the 12 years of our marriage, though by the

time she got to be a Coda regular she'd stopped going to AA and NA. Just

couldn't stop doing the steps though. She herself introduced regular

dope-smoking with us, about four years before we parted. Was good, but she

got the horrors somewhat and went back to NA. Beginning of the end, as I

didn't see the reason to stop my moderate using. Things were crazy -- her

fascist determination to get everything her way had me out of the house and

hanging on by fingertips at weekends for a year. My mother was dying

throughout and did in the end, though, mercifully, before we finally parted,

following my fall into utter disgrace after crashging the car while drunk on

total Christmas stress-out. Can't justify that, but I was off the wall by

then. We had two beautiful kids and a pretty damn good life, but we couldn't

make out with money very sensibly and she was definitely irreversibly gone

on the steps. She's now queen of the scene in Aberystwyth, a little Welsh

seaside town (with a frighteningly slick recovery web-site --

www.recovery.org.uk. Possibly some secret British HQ for the stepNazis!!)

Following the final break up of our marriage, she dived deep in again. More

to my pain than amusemnet, she has a new guy now -- guess what -- a recovery

boy. Our lovely kids, 10 and 7, only see their Dad every couple of months.

We had such a good life, the shit notwithstanding. Her fear of chaos, ruin,

and death just had her permanently on the run to the steps and her airhead

sponsors. She had a difficult past and has always just shoved everything

that she ever did wrong and all her responses to deep wrongs others did to

her into the " disease " bag. So often over the past three years there have

been flashes of our strong affection and hugs and the odd kiss. I find it

impossible to let go of her and the children and her will always be at the

heart of my world. Things have been awful between us -- she knows I'm

militant anti-AA and just says I'm crazy. My anger and accusations that she

has behaved in a morally imbecilic fashion have done no good at all. Oh,

well that's life . . . you'll be sorry you asked after reading this, so I'll

put the violin away now and read the rest of my Email from this most

stimulating group.

Good luck,

Yours,

.

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[Guest guest]

I'm with you Doug - believe in the same God myself. But I have no desire to

change, convert or demean someone who doesn't believe in the concept of God

or follows a different path. That is a basic human right of every individual

on this planet.

Having said that, would those of you on this list who are athiests or

consider maybe toning down your mockery of those of us who do believe in

God? If you can't, fine, I won't ask again. It's your choice.

jan

Re: atheist AA

> >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:23:51 -0400

> >

> >

> >

> >Hi Doug,

> >

> >As a non theist, it still rubs me the wrong way when the Judeo Christian

> >tradition is used as the standard of good. While IMO the Bible is a

> >great source of myth, it is fair at best in offering moral guidelines.

> >It has been my experience that an openness to global myth is a more

> >complete way to explore goodness and morality. I will admit though that

> >many Christians and Jews are good by humanist values. ( Reversing the

> >sentence shows what I am talking about

> >

> >.)

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>

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>

[Guest guest]

Doug, suppose we introduce your ex-wife to my future ex-husband. They have

alot in common.

jan

Re: atheist AA

> Dear ,

> Good to have your thoughtful letter. It amuses me that the same people

who

> will niggle on about lack of historical proof for Biblical events are

often

> those who are most ready to believe some almost totally unfounded

assertion

> that St was gay. The guesses from what he meant by " a thorn in my

> flesh " run from stomach disorders to his wife. Be that as it may, I agree

on

> reflection that I do err on the dogmatic side myself, though my " dogma " is

> that of one who must consider himself an antinomian Xian, and, as St

> would be the first to tell you, that's a risky position in itself. I can

> only believe in One Revelation as having an Absolute truth value, but that

> Revelation makes clear that " In my Father's House there are many mansions "

> and " They are not all Israel who are of Israel " .

> My wife and I met at AA. I was a churchgoer, she wasn't. She stayed

pretty

> well " on program " throughout the 12 years of our marriage, though by the

> time she got to be a Coda regular she'd stopped going to AA and NA. Just

> couldn't stop doing the steps though. She herself introduced regular

> dope-smoking with us, about four years before we parted. Was good, but

she

> got the horrors somewhat and went back to NA. Beginning of the end, as I

> didn't see the reason to stop my moderate using. Things were crazy -- her

> fascist determination to get everything her way had me out of the house

and

> hanging on by fingertips at weekends for a year. My mother was dying

> throughout and did in the end, though, mercifully, before we finally

parted,

> following my fall into utter disgrace after crashging the car while drunk

on

> total Christmas stress-out. Can't justify that, but I was off the wall by

> then. We had two beautiful kids and a pretty damn good life, but we

couldn't

> make out with money very sensibly and she was definitely irreversibly gone

> on the steps. She's now queen of the scene in Aberystwyth, a little Welsh

> seaside town (with a frighteningly slick recovery web-site --

> www.recovery.org.uk. Possibly some secret British HQ for the stepNazis!!)

> Following the final break up of our marriage, she dived deep in again.

More

> to my pain than amusemnet, she has a new guy now -- guess what -- a

recovery

> boy. Our lovely kids, 10 and 7, only see their Dad every couple of

months.

> We had such a good life, the shit notwithstanding. Her fear of chaos,

ruin,

> and death just had her permanently on the run to the steps and her airhead

> sponsors. She had a difficult past and has always just shoved everything

> that she ever did wrong and all her responses to deep wrongs others did to

> her into the " disease " bag. So often over the past three years there have

> been flashes of our strong affection and hugs and the odd kiss. I find it

> impossible to let go of her and the children and her will always be at the

> heart of my world. Things have been awful between us -- she knows I'm

> militant anti-AA and just says I'm crazy. My anger and accusations that

she

> has behaved in a morally imbecilic fashion have done no good at all. Oh,

> well that's life . . . you'll be sorry you asked after reading this, so

I'll

> put the violin away now and read the rest of my Email from this most

> stimulating group.

> Good luck,

> Yours,

> .

> ________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>

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> Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already

> registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:

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>

[Guest guest]

I don't believe I've done that.

=================

Janice Young wrote:

> Having said that, would those of you on this list who are athiests or

> consider maybe toning down your mockery of those of us who do believe in

> God? If you can't, fine, I won't ask again. It's your choice.

>

> jan

[Guest guest]

Speaking for myself, whatever I am, atheist, agnostic, or believer, I don't

believe I have ever demeaned anyone's beliefs or argued against them. I hope no

one believes that I have.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>I'm with you Doug - believe in the same God myself. But I have no desire to

>change, convert or demean someone who doesn't believe in the concept of God

>or follows a different path. That is a basic human right of every individual

>on this planet.

>

>Having said that, would those of you on this list who are athiests or

>consider maybe toning down your mockery of those of us who do believe in

>God? If you can't, fine, I won't ask again. It's your choice.

>

>jan

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: atheist AA

>> >Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 19:23:51 -0400

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >Hi Doug,

>> >

>> >As a non theist, it still rubs me the wrong way when the Judeo Christian

>> >tradition is used as the standard of good. While IMO the Bible is a

>> >great source of myth, it is fair at best in offering moral guidelines.

>> >It has been my experience that an openness to global myth is a more

>> >complete way to explore goodness and morality. I will admit though that

>> >many Christians and Jews are good by humanist values. ( Reversing the

>> >sentence shows what I am talking about

>> >

>> >.)

>>

>> ________________________________________________________________________

>> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>>

>>

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>>

>

>

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Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

I agree. I just wonder how is this " one way " position is any different than

that of xtianity IYO. Or how xtianity is " right " in taking this position

where everyone else is wrong/fascist/evil.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:31:29 GMT

>

> The stepNazis are terrifyingly " one

>way " , " No man cometh to recovery but through us " , to risk blasphemy in

>making the point. >

>

> >

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Yeh, Jan a lot in common -- our lives messed up more by AA totalitarianism

than using or boozing could manage. The stepNazis are terrifyingly " one

way " , " No man cometh to recovery but through us " , to risk blasphemy in

making the point. We can only pray our ex's get hit with the equivalent of

a spiritual bolt of lightning to break their diabolical conditioning.

Love

Doug.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: atheist AA

>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:56:43 -0400

>

>Doug, suppose we introduce your ex-wife to my future ex-husband. They have

>alot in common.

>

>jan

>

>

>

> Re: atheist AA

>

>

> > Dear ,

> > Good to have your thoughtful letter. It amuses me that the same people

>who

> > will niggle on about lack of historical proof for Biblical events are

>often

> > those who are most ready to believe some almost totally unfounded

>assertion

> > that St was gay. The guesses from what he meant by " a thorn in my

> > flesh " run from stomach disorders to his wife. Be that as it may, I

>agree

>on

> > reflection that I do err on the dogmatic side myself, though my " dogma "

>is

> > that of one who must consider himself an antinomian Xian, and, as St

>

> > would be the first to tell you, that's a risky position in itself. I

>can

> > only believe in One Revelation as having an Absolute truth value, but

>that

> > Revelation makes clear that " In my Father's House there are many

>mansions "

> > and " They are not all Israel who are of Israel " .

> > My wife and I met at AA. I was a churchgoer, she wasn't. She stayed

>pretty

> > well " on program " throughout the 12 years of our marriage, though by the

> > time she got to be a Coda regular she'd stopped going to AA and NA. Just

> > couldn't stop doing the steps though. She herself introduced regular

> > dope-smoking with us, about four years before we parted. Was good, but

>she

> > got the horrors somewhat and went back to NA. Beginning of the end, as

>I

> > didn't see the reason to stop my moderate using. Things were crazy --

>her

> > fascist determination to get everything her way had me out of the house

>and

> > hanging on by fingertips at weekends for a year. My mother was dying

> > throughout and did in the end, though, mercifully, before we finally

>parted,

> > following my fall into utter disgrace after crashging the car while

>drunk

>on

> > total Christmas stress-out. Can't justify that, but I was off the wall

>by

> > then. We had two beautiful kids and a pretty damn good life, but we

>couldn't

> > make out with money very sensibly and she was definitely irreversibly

>gone

> > on the steps. She's now queen of the scene in Aberystwyth, a little

>Welsh

> > seaside town (with a frighteningly slick recovery web-site --

> > www.recovery.org.uk. Possibly some secret British HQ for the

>stepNazis!!)

> > Following the final break up of our marriage, she dived deep in again.

>More

> > to my pain than amusemnet, she has a new guy now -- guess what -- a

>recovery

> > boy. Our lovely kids, 10 and 7, only see their Dad every couple of

>months.

> > We had such a good life, the shit notwithstanding. Her fear of chaos,

>ruin,

> > and death just had her permanently on the run to the steps and her

>airhead

> > sponsors. She had a difficult past and has always just shoved

>everything

> > that she ever did wrong and all her responses to deep wrongs others did

>to

> > her into the " disease " bag. So often over the past three years there

>have

> > been flashes of our strong affection and hugs and the odd kiss. I find

>it

> > impossible to let go of her and the children and her will always be at

>the

> > heart of my world. Things have been awful between us -- she knows I'm

> > militant anti-AA and just says I'm crazy. My anger and accusations that

>she

> > has behaved in a morally imbecilic fashion have done no good at all.

>Oh,

> > well that's life . . . you'll be sorry you asked after reading this, so

>I'll

> > put the violin away now and read the rest of my Email from this most

> > stimulating group.

> > Good luck,

> > Yours,

> > .

> > ________________________________________________________________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget.

> > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already

> > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:

> > http://click./1/2885/1/_/4324/_/956707609/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> >

>

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