Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

[Guest guest]

That statement sums up my whole existence. Ha ha

>

> I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was surprised

to find it.

>

> It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure if it's

still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the first page:

>

> " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

>

[Guest guest]

My Nada would get angry if I was sick or injured, also. She got really impatient

once when I had surgery on my jaw at age 12. I was half asleep still when I woke

up (I was on drugs during surgery). At that point, I hadn't eaten in over 24

hours because I had to have an empty stomach for the surgery.

I remember she was trying to feed me some yogurt because the doctor told her to

do it when I woke up. She was quite irritated to do it, though. I didn't feel

like eating because I wasn't hungry. She said, " I don't have all day. " The

quicker you eat this, the better you will be.

I said " okay " , but said that it hurt to eat right now. She said, " Well, going

through this will make you a better person. "

I still remember that today. I guess the last part makes sense, its just odd

coming from Nada who deliberately manipulates, lies, and isolates my siblings

and other family members from me.

-Joy

> > >

> > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > >

> > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure if

it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the first

page:

> > >

> > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Did anyone else on this board hide or minimize injuries, sickness, etc. because

that was just easier then asking nada for help? I suppose this relates to

assertiveness also. I definitely had any sense of personal assertation beaten

out of me from an early age.

Nada always said I had a " high pain tolerance. " It's just that I didn't want her

to rage at me when I was hurt or sick so I just swallowed the pain stoicly, even

as a very young girl.

One time I was bitten on the hand by an agressive neighbourhood tom cat... quite

hard. I still have scars from it. I was probably age 12 or so; anyway I woke up

that night in serious pain as the bite had become infected and swelled up so

large that it looked like a baseball under my skin on the top of my hand, with

two giant crater-like holes where the tomcats teeth had deeply pierced and

penetrated my skin.

Nada must have heard me crying in my bedroom because she finally came storming

in after what seemed like hours of pain and took me to the emergency room in the

middle of the night. Nada was screaming and raging at me the whole way there and

even being overtly rude at the hospital. The nurse who disinfected my hands did

it very roughly and I remember my nada joking later how I " winced " in pain when

she did that. I didnt' recieve shots for rabies, tetanus, infection, or a mild

pain pill whatsoever. Just rage and guilt over being bitten by an agressive

animal, what a bad kid I was!!!

> > > >

> > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > >

> > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure if

it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the first

page:

> > > >

> > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm so sorry to hear this, Hellfireblonde. Not only is this rude and insensitive

to say the least, it is neglectful of both your Nada and the nurse to not

investigate any repercussions by the cause of your injury.

Poor kid. You deserved to be coddled and I don't care how long or loud you

screamed! You were a kid.

-Joy

> > > > >

> > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

> > > > >

> > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Joy, but it was my NADA who screamed! Lol

Yes, I was crying in my bedroom before she came in to take me to the hospital

but it was NADA that screamed and raged at me the whole way there! As soon as

nada was involved I stopped crying!

You're right though, I deserved better. We all do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm so sorry you had to go through that, it must have been very scary to you as

well as extremely painful. You're lucky to be alive, you could easily have

gotten tetanus or rabies as well as the infected abcess. And the nurse was a

piece of crap too, for being rough with you and not sympathetic. I would have

been scared to death that my hand might rot and fall off, and they treated you

like that.

Horrible, nasty things. There has to be a special place in hell for people who

are so cruel to children.

And yes, I tended to not let nada know when I was sick or injured. Like you, I

didn't want to be yelled at on top of feeling ill or in pain.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

> > > > >

> > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well that's just awful, and I can totally relate. I posted the other day about

going to my nada when I had dropped a knife into my toe and her just looking at

me saying " well dont just stand there...take it out " , and I also remember being

very sick one night and throwing up in my bed and my Fada not doing a thing

about it and just telling me to go back to sleep next to the puke.

So yeah...I did just stop complaining or mentioning that anything was wrong.

What good did it do?

I bruise easily...or maybe not...anyway...I get bruises and cant even tell you

where they came from. High tolerance for pain my booty. I think my body just

learned at an early age not to register pain cause there was nothing to be done

about it anyway.

You're not a bad kid and neither was I. Stupid selfish nadas and fadas.

> > > > >

> > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

> > > > >

> > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes. I never said anything when I was sick because of her reaction which was

either rage or anger at having to take me to the doctor and being inconvenienced

or raging at me because I had difficulty taking the medication. She was and is a

coldhearted selfish b*tch. When I was 18 I had an e-coli infection and strep

throat at the same time. I was home sick for days and couldn't go to class. I

couldn't get out of bed because I was so weak. I had a fever and was slipping in

and out of consciousness for several days because of it. She used to come in

every morning wake me up and tell me to go to class. I'd tell her I was too

sick. She never said anything, she'd just leave and go to work. I got myself to

the doctor and the pharmacy. Years later when I told her about the infection and

how it led to another health problem she had no recollection that I was even

sick. My dad remembered because he was the one who checked on me everyday. There

are many examples of this throughout the years.

> > > > >

> > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

> > > > >

> > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Abby, so are you saying your father who checked on you every day did *not* take

you to the doctor! I'm not sure who to be more horrified at sometimes the

abusive neglectful nadas or their enablers who are technically mentally healthy.

I would have a hard time with forgiveness on that. And kudos to your strength

and resourcefulness to get yourself help while in that condition.

J

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

That sounds familiar.

I remember I was hit by a car when I was riding my bike home from school. I

fell forward and ripped my shoulder muscles in 3 places and it was a very

serious injury. I also cracked my bike helmet and blacked out. And there

was some road burn.

I remember a lady who saw it happen got me out of the road and got me a

phone to call my nada. I didn't really want to but who else to call? Boy

she was frantic a first then when she got there she was already chastising

me for riding in the street. (I had to, no other way and she refused to

find me a way to get several miles of busy busy streets to get home at age

13).

She took me to the doctor, they had to dig gravel out of my arm. My arm was

so painful I couldn't move it so doctor put it in a sling and said it may

have some serious trauma. Thought I should go to the ER for xrays and who

knows what else I can hardly remember but she didn't want to take me.

Instead I was taken home and told to tough it out and get the dishes and

kitchen cleaned up.

To this day she denies she did that and when I call her on it she makes

excuses " I didn't know you were hurt that bad " . Even if the muscle tears

weren't realized which they were, I couldn't move arm very much at all there

was the HUGE road burn down my arm.

So yeah, I learned to tough it out. I had other incidents as a child like

my sister stabbing me in the head with keys (she had a terrible temper. BPD

esk but she seems better now?). Mom didn't punish her at all just told me

not to provoke my sister.

If mom ever brushed my hair for me as a kid, mostly she didn't she just

ridiculed me for having a rat's nest that bugs would live in. I was 8 or

younger and couldn't figure out to brush the back of my hair too. Anyway if

she brushed it she'd yank that brush so hard and hurt my scalp and tell me I

had a tender head and quit being a baby. It wasn't until I was older having

my hair done by a professional who was amazed I never complained about how

the curlers hurt or anything.

Its some kind of torture they get off on or what???

I realize why I didn't want to have a daughter. so afraid I'd be like her.

Now that I have my son I know a daughter would be a joy and I'd be happy to

brush her hair.. gently and with care.

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of maparise17

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 9:55 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

This is so wrong and I as a mother can't understand why and how a mother

could do this to an innocent child.

I am so sorry you had to endure this kind of behavior.

malinda

In WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> , " hellfireblonde99 "

wrote:

>

> Did anyone else on this board hide or minimize injuries, sickness, etc.

because that was just easier then asking nada for help? I suppose this

relates to assertiveness also. I definitely had any sense of personal

assertation beaten out of me from an early age.

>

> Nada always said I had a " high pain tolerance. " It's just that I didn't

want her to rage at me when I was hurt or sick so I just swallowed the pain

stoicly, even as a very young girl.

>

> One time I was bitten on the hand by an agressive neighbourhood tom cat...

quite hard. I still have scars from it. I was probably age 12 or so; anyway

I woke up that night in serious pain as the bite had become infected and

swelled up so large that it looked like a baseball under my skin on the top

of my hand, with two giant crater-like holes where the tomcats teeth had

deeply pierced and penetrated my skin.

>

> Nada must have heard me crying in my bedroom because she finally came

storming in after what seemed like hours of pain and took me to the

emergency room in the middle of the night. Nada was screaming and raging at

me the whole way there and even being overtly rude at the hospital. The

nurse who disinfected my hands did it very roughly and I remember my nada

joking later how I " winced " in pain when she did that. I didnt' recieve

shots for rabies, tetanus, infection, or a mild pain pill whatsoever. Just

rage and guilt over being bitten by an agressive animal, what a bad kid I

was!!!

>

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I

was surprised to find it.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not

sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

reading the first page:

> > > > >

> > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Good Lord, Dawn....I can't wrap my mind around what could possibly generate that

level of cruelty in a mother toward her own child who survived being hit by a

car and badly injured, but its *inhuman* and unforgivable in my book.

Freaking *criminals* are treated better in prison than a lot of us KOs were

treated.

And yes, we've had threads before at this Group where several members described

how their nadas yanked and pulled their hair hard enough to make the scalp

bleed, inflicted first and second-degree burns with hot curling irons and just

told the child to shut up when she cried in pain, or made their child plunge her

hands into scalding hot water to wash dishes... its staggering how similar these

sadistic behaviors are from nada to nada.

Its obvious to me that these are not parenting behaviors, these are sick,

twisted, revenge behaviors, hate behaviors, and punitive behaviors inflicted by

someone with no conscience, no compassion, no remorse, and no empathy. These

are acts of criminal child abuse.

These are people who would stomp a puppy to death and sleep well afterward; just

not even human.

Seems to me that the evidence is piling up higher and higher that bpds are too

mentally ill, emotionally unstable or maybe just too plain old evil to be

allowed to raise children.

Wow.

-Annie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I

> was surprised to find it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not

> sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> reading the first page:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

That is horrific. I am so sorry you went thru that. I don't understand how

anyone could be so cruel, especially to their child. It's awful that there

wasn't another adult to get you medical care of comfort you. This is one of the

stories on here that I read and just get angry.

It is truly amazing that you survived this and are

doing so well.

my nada was mean and cruel, but it was mostly emotional.

Joanna

In WTOAdultChildren1 , " Dawn " wrote:

>

> That sounds familiar.

>

>

>

> I remember I was hit by a car when I was riding my bike home from school. I

> fell forward and ripped my shoulder muscles in 3 places and it was a very

> serious injury. I also cracked my bike helmet and blacked out. And there

> was some road burn.

>

>

>

> I remember a lady who saw it happen got me out of the road and got me a

> phone to call my nada. I didn't really want to but who else to call? Boy

> she was frantic a first then when she got there she was already chastising

> me for riding in the street. (I had to, no other way and she refused to

> find me a way to get several miles of busy busy streets to get home at age

> 13).

>

>

>

> She took me to the doctor, they had to dig gravel out of my arm. My arm was

> so painful I couldn't move it so doctor put it in a sling and said it may

> have some serious trauma. Thought I should go to the ER for xrays and who

> knows what else I can hardly remember but she didn't want to take me.

>

>

>

> Instead I was taken home and told to tough it out and get the dishes and

> kitchen cleaned up.

>

>

>

> To this day she denies she did that and when I call her on it she makes

> excuses " I didn't know you were hurt that bad " . Even if the muscle tears

> weren't realized which they were, I couldn't move arm very much at all there

> was the HUGE road burn down my arm.

>

>

>

> So yeah, I learned to tough it out. I had other incidents as a child like

> my sister stabbing me in the head with keys (she had a terrible temper. BPD

> esk but she seems better now?). Mom didn't punish her at all just told me

> not to provoke my sister.

>

>

>

> If mom ever brushed my hair for me as a kid, mostly she didn't she just

> ridiculed me for having a rat's nest that bugs would live in. I was 8 or

> younger and couldn't figure out to brush the back of my hair too. Anyway if

> she brushed it she'd yank that brush so hard and hurt my scalp and tell me I

> had a tender head and quit being a baby. It wasn't until I was older having

> my hair done by a professional who was amazed I never complained about how

> the curlers hurt or anything.

>

>

>

> Its some kind of torture they get off on or what???

>

>

>

> I realize why I didn't want to have a daughter. so afraid I'd be like her.

> Now that I have my son I know a daughter would be a joy and I'd be happy to

> brush her hair.. gently and with care.

>

>

>

> Dawn

>

>

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of maparise17

> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 9:55 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

>

>

>

>

>

> This is so wrong and I as a mother can't understand why and how a mother

> could do this to an innocent child.

>

> I am so sorry you had to endure this kind of behavior.

>

> malinda

>

> In WTOAdultChildren1

> <mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> , " hellfireblonde99 "

> <hellfireblonde99@> wrote:

> >

> > Did anyone else on this board hide or minimize injuries, sickness, etc.

> because that was just easier then asking nada for help? I suppose this

> relates to assertiveness also. I definitely had any sense of personal

> assertation beaten out of me from an early age.

> >

> > Nada always said I had a " high pain tolerance. " It's just that I didn't

> want her to rage at me when I was hurt or sick so I just swallowed the pain

> stoicly, even as a very young girl.

> >

> > One time I was bitten on the hand by an agressive neighbourhood tom cat...

> quite hard. I still have scars from it. I was probably age 12 or so; anyway

> I woke up that night in serious pain as the bite had become infected and

> swelled up so large that it looked like a baseball under my skin on the top

> of my hand, with two giant crater-like holes where the tomcats teeth had

> deeply pierced and penetrated my skin.

> >

> > Nada must have heard me crying in my bedroom because she finally came

> storming in after what seemed like hours of pain and took me to the

> emergency room in the middle of the night. Nada was screaming and raging at

> me the whole way there and even being overtly rude at the hospital. The

> nurse who disinfected my hands did it very roughly and I remember my nada

> joking later how I " winced " in pain when she did that. I didnt' recieve

> shots for rabies, tetanus, infection, or a mild pain pill whatsoever. Just

> rage and guilt over being bitten by an agressive animal, what a bad kid I

> was!!!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I

> was surprised to find it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not

> sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> reading the first page:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I remember growing up from the time I was 11 or so that if I started

vomiting or not feeling well I'd get harassed about being pregnant.

So I stopped letting her know about it. When I was old enough I took

myself to the doctor but they never figured out why I was vomiting all the

time. I seem to go through these detoxes.. not fun.

My father was just as bad if he got wind of it. When I was 18 and was

really struggling with my nada's worse and worse behavior ( " she was having a

breakdown " ) it couldn't be that I was reacting to her, or my then

undiagnosed thyroid disorder. I *MUST* be going crazy like my mom (this

from dad) or pregnant.

I was pushed and pushed to get onto antidepressants also from a young age.

If I hadn't been old enough to refuse when they started it who knows. It

was all projection as I was being painted by nada's illness and my of course

ravaged self and hiding in my shell in order to survive her and him (he was

controlling and also emotionally absent) I did get depressed and withdrawn.

How not??

It was never anything THEY were doing.

They didn't stop until I was dragged to see mom's psychiatrist and talk with

him. He said I was fine, just going through normal grief and what not.

They forced me to go as a condition of living with them after leaving an

abusive relationship.

It was always better not to let them know I was sick, or sad. better to

internalize it all. I remember I was almost raped by a guy when I was 17.

I never told a soul. Cleaned myself up, put my mask in place and died more

inside.

What is awful is when nada is in her mothering mood and hears about

something I internalized and then plays the " why won't you ask for help?

You are too proud. You need to get over yourself " . Right.

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of abby_doo

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 5:43 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

I don't think I would classify him as mentally healthy either, but he tried.

I don't see him as a saint and my issues with him are those of an ACOA, but

I am more forgiving of him. He had his own mental health issues and was an

alcoholic which meant he was frequently not available to parent me either,

but he did what he could when he could. He was the one who woke me up in the

morning, made my lunch, made my breakfast, talked to me, took me to school,

attended all the school stuff, baked the brownies/cookies/cakes for the bake

sale, helped with homework and generally made sure I was okay. Nada did

nothing. I spent a long time in denial about him too, but working through

ACOA (adult child of an alcoholic) issues has actually been easier than

working through the KO issues, though the two are so entwined I don't know

where one begins and the other ends sometimes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house.

I was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm

not sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

reading the first page:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Joanna.

I read your posts, and the others and it helps me feel comfortable sharing

some of these things. Stuff I haven't told anyone even my husband.

I don't want to poison our relationship with all this misery I guess. I

just try to pretend it was something that happened to someone else? Maybe

that dissociative stuff someone else was talking about.

It's getting rough though to tell it but maybe it will get easier. Having

the comfort and understanding from you all is so validating. for once

someone believes me.

My father was out of town when the incident happened but he never wanted to

take us to the hospital. He always tried to patch it up himself. I had a

bad cut down my heel, it must have split it down to the bone and he just put

butterfly bandages on it and had me rest on the couch. He did make nada

bring me anything I needed and leave me alone to heal. He didn't want me

walking on it but we had health insurance why not take me to the er?! Maybe

I'd not have this huge painful scar that some shoes rub on bad.

They were both so irresponsible as parents. it is a miracle I survived. He

was like a teenager playing house and she was/is just nuts.

What KILLS me now, and drives my DH crazy is when they tell me how to parent

our son!! Oh my god! If " fada " tells me one more time that I should have

my son potty trained already I might just kick him in the pants

My son is just shy of two. He's not ready, can't even pull his own pants

down yet much less communicate to me that he needs to potty. I am not going

to rush him, when he's ready he will tell me.

And one of the last times I went to dinner with nada she snapped at me for

taking my son out of the restaurant when he started fussing. She told me I

was spoiling him and he was just going to get worse. I don't want to

disturb everyone's meal and he's obviously upset about something. the loud

noise or maybe nada snapping mommy's head off every two seconds. I remember

she was mad at me before dinner and punishing me with dirty looks and snide

comments to my brother and godmother who were on her end of the table. DH

and I were doing our best to ignore her and my godsister, bless her, was

helping to distract us. Anyway she was mad because she threatened to put

all her cats down (5), most of which I gave her when she begged for them. I

could have found LOVING homes for these expensive purebred cats but she

guilt tripped me into letting her have them. And then she makes this big

drama about how my fada is kicking her out of their house during the divorce

(not exactly true, but he was being an ass) and she and the cats had no

where to go (not true my brother was taking her in with the cats) so she was

going to put them all to sleep and it's all fada's fault. She wanted to

make my sister and me hate him and side with her because we both are animal

lovers. Instead she got me ROYALLY angry. I told her to knock it off, if I

hear she's going to do that one more time I'm coming over and taking them

all away and I will find them homes. She did it again of course. And so I

told her I'm coming to get them say good bye to them now.

well she got brother to defend her, knight in shining armor. He told me off

basically, told me I was being unreasonable.. Um, she was threatening to

KILL THE CATS!!! And that I had no right to enter their property and take

the animals. My sister was on my side until my nada and brother got to her

(per usual) and she ended up talking me down. For her sake I let it go but

I told her that was the last straw.

I still worry about the cats. I think if she gets mad enough she will do it

and I'm making her pretty mad with the NC. I don't want to call Animal

Control because they will impound the cats and not let me take them and find

them homes, 2 are skittish so they will just put them down.

Ah the drama.

Maybe I love the huge dogs I have, and plan to breed because she hates them.

Keeps her away pretty well mentioning my 140lb Anatolian has free run of the

house. =)

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of joannaandsophie

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 11:24 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

Dawn,

That is horrific. I am so sorry you went thru that. I don't understand how

anyone could be so cruel, especially to their child. It's awful that there

wasn't another adult to get you medical care of comfort you. This is one of

the stories on here that I read and just get angry.

It is truly amazing that you survived this and are

doing so well.

my nada was mean and cruel, but it was mostly emotional.

Joanna

In WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> , " Dawn "

wrote:

>

> That sounds familiar.

>

>

>

> I remember I was hit by a car when I was riding my bike home from school.

I

> fell forward and ripped my shoulder muscles in 3 places and it was a very

> serious injury. I also cracked my bike helmet and blacked out. And there

> was some road burn.

>

>

>

> I remember a lady who saw it happen got me out of the road and got me a

> phone to call my nada. I didn't really want to but who else to call? Boy

> she was frantic a first then when she got there she was already chastising

> me for riding in the street. (I had to, no other way and she refused to

> find me a way to get several miles of busy busy streets to get home at age

> 13).

>

>

>

> She took me to the doctor, they had to dig gravel out of my arm. My arm

was

> so painful I couldn't move it so doctor put it in a sling and said it may

> have some serious trauma. Thought I should go to the ER for xrays and who

> knows what else I can hardly remember but she didn't want to take me.

>

>

>

> Instead I was taken home and told to tough it out and get the dishes and

> kitchen cleaned up.

>

>

>

> To this day she denies she did that and when I call her on it she makes

> excuses " I didn't know you were hurt that bad " . Even if the muscle tears

> weren't realized which they were, I couldn't move arm very much at all

there

> was the HUGE road burn down my arm.

>

>

>

> So yeah, I learned to tough it out. I had other incidents as a child like

> my sister stabbing me in the head with keys (she had a terrible temper.

BPD

> esk but she seems better now?). Mom didn't punish her at all just told me

> not to provoke my sister.

>

>

>

> If mom ever brushed my hair for me as a kid, mostly she didn't she just

> ridiculed me for having a rat's nest that bugs would live in. I was 8 or

> younger and couldn't figure out to brush the back of my hair too. Anyway

if

> she brushed it she'd yank that brush so hard and hurt my scalp and tell me

I

> had a tender head and quit being a baby. It wasn't until I was older

having

> my hair done by a professional who was amazed I never complained about how

> the curlers hurt or anything.

>

>

>

> Its some kind of torture they get off on or what???

>

>

>

> I realize why I didn't want to have a daughter. so afraid I'd be like her.

> Now that I have my son I know a daughter would be a joy and I'd be happy

to

> brush her hair.. gently and with care.

>

>

>

> Dawn

>

>

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of maparise17

> Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 9:55 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

>

>

>

>

>

> This is so wrong and I as a mother can't understand why and how a mother

> could do this to an innocent child.

>

> I am so sorry you had to endure this kind of behavior.

>

> malinda

>

> In WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

> <mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> , " hellfireblonde99 "

> <hellfireblonde99@> wrote:

> >

> > Did anyone else on this board hide or minimize injuries, sickness, etc.

> because that was just easier then asking nada for help? I suppose this

> relates to assertiveness also. I definitely had any sense of personal

> assertation beaten out of me from an early age.

> >

> > Nada always said I had a " high pain tolerance. " It's just that I didn't

> want her to rage at me when I was hurt or sick so I just swallowed the

pain

> stoicly, even as a very young girl.

> >

> > One time I was bitten on the hand by an agressive neighbourhood tom

cat...

> quite hard. I still have scars from it. I was probably age 12 or so;

anyway

> I woke up that night in serious pain as the bite had become infected and

> swelled up so large that it looked like a baseball under my skin on the

top

> of my hand, with two giant crater-like holes where the tomcats teeth had

> deeply pierced and penetrated my skin.

> >

> > Nada must have heard me crying in my bedroom because she finally came

> storming in after what seemed like hours of pain and took me to the

> emergency room in the middle of the night. Nada was screaming and raging

at

> me the whole way there and even being overtly rude at the hospital. The

> nurse who disinfected my hands did it very roughly and I remember my nada

> joking later how I " winced " in pain when she did that. I didnt' recieve

> shots for rabies, tetanus, infection, or a mild pain pill whatsoever. Just

> rage and guilt over being bitten by an agressive animal, what a bad kid I

> was!!!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I

> was surprised to find it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not

> sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> reading the first page:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I agree with you. I wish my dad had taken me away from her but I suspect he

is NPD ??? I haven't even begun to look into that. This is hard enough for

now.

I can hardly remember most of my childhood. =( I know why, thought about

going to therapy to try and bring the memories back but to what end? I

don't know if it will make me better or worse.

I remember stepping between my mom and a broom stick she was going to hit my

baby brother with. over the head. She had already done it once and I made

sure it didn't happen again. He was maybe 3? She walked out and left us

for the night after I made her look in my eyes and basically turned the

other cheek waiting for the blow.

I was punished for weeks after that and never told my father what she did.

Probably because in the past he didn't believe me over her.

My brother remembers none of this. I protected him well. But now he doesn't

see the darkness inside of her and he's stuck.

It's so tragic. I wish I could somehow undo all the pain you all have felt.

because I know how bad it is. and how long it lingers for our entire lives.

These kinds of wounds don't really heal. not without nasty scars anyway.

dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of anuria67854

Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 11:16 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

Good Lord, Dawn....I can't wrap my mind around what could possibly generate

that level of cruelty in a mother toward her own child who survived being

hit by a car and badly injured, but its *inhuman* and unforgivable in my

book.

Freaking *criminals* are treated better in prison than a lot of us KOs were

treated.

And yes, we've had threads before at this Group where several members

described how their nadas yanked and pulled their hair hard enough to make

the scalp bleed, inflicted first and second-degree burns with hot curling

irons and just told the child to shut up when she cried in pain, or made

their child plunge her hands into scalding hot water to wash dishes... its

staggering how similar these sadistic behaviors are from nada to nada.

Its obvious to me that these are not parenting behaviors, these are sick,

twisted, revenge behaviors, hate behaviors, and punitive behaviors inflicted

by someone with no conscience, no compassion, no remorse, and no empathy.

These are acts of criminal child abuse.

These are people who would stomp a puppy to death and sleep well afterward;

just not even human.

Seems to me that the evidence is piling up higher and higher that bpds are

too mentally ill, emotionally unstable or maybe just too plain old evil to

be allowed to raise children.

Wow.

-Annie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I

> was surprised to find it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not

> sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> reading the first page:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think the sad thing is that we also underplay all of these incidents and do

not realize the severity of the injuries until much later because we were afraid

to tell our nadas we were hurt. Or, they downplayed the severity of the injury.

I had a similar incident myself. I was riding my bike with a friend on the back.

We were sideswiped by a bus. I twisted my ankle and my friend got scraped up,

but we were okay. What I remember most is that everyone in the neighborhood came

running. The bus driver, the people on the bus all got out to help and were

concerned. It was the first time someone seemed to care I was hurt. My ankle got

caught in the spokes of the wheel, and the wheel of the bike was twisted under

the bus. The bus driver was trying to take it out without hurting me. When they

got the bike out, my foot feel free of the wheel. Someone went to get my mother

and she came down the street. I still see the crazy rage, contorted

lemon-sucking face that always appears in my time of need. I was terrified, not

relieved to see her. She saw that the bike was dented and yelled at me for

denting my bike. She then laid into me about having my friend on the back of the

bike with me and she could have been killed. Not once did she ask if I was okay.

I can only imagine what it must have looked like to the other adults. I had to

wheel my bike home with a sore ankle while she berated me all the way up the

street. I was sent to my room. As usual, I never did get to a doctor.

I've had problems with my ankles and knees my whole life and now have arthritis

in both. I think I have the ankle/knee problems now because I had injuries that

were never treated properly. If I hurt my foot, I'd just put an ace bandage on

it and go about my business. Kinda sad when you think about it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I

> > was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not

> > sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> > reading the first page:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

same as my nada....when we were sick, she'd give us a bucket to vomit in, so

we wouldn't get her up. I am allergic to bees..I got stung by 2 in the

throat and had trouble breathing, nada wouldn't take me to the hospital

until her favorite soap opera was over...good think my oldest sister was

there and could drive !! SHE took me to the hospital...once the

neighborhood kids were playing " kick the can " and I was the last person in,

so I got to kick it, and the boy had to be " it " again...he got angry and

threw the can at me, it sliced open my ear, and nada was screaming at me for

getting hurt and inconviencing them...again !!

Jackie

Well that's just awful, and I can totally relate. I posted the other day

about going to my nada when I had dropped a knife into my toe and her just

looking at me saying " well dont just stand there...take it out " , and I also

remember being very sick one night and throwing up in my bed and my Fada not

doing a thing about it and just telling me to go back to sleep next to the

puke.

So yeah...I did just stop complaining or mentioning that anything was wrong.

What good did it do?

I bruise easily...or maybe not...anyway...I get bruises and cant even tell

you where they came from. High tolerance for pain my booty. I think my

body just learned at an early age not to register pain cause there was

nothing to be done about it anyway.

You're not a bad kid and neither was I. Stupid selfish nadas and fadas.

[Guest guest]

same here...she'd send me to school even when I had a tempature...and the

school nurse would call and want to send me home...someones nada wouldn't

answer the phone, other tiimes she'd tell the nurse she had to go shopping

and would pick me up later. Then I'd get yelled at

Jackie

Yes. I never said anything when I was sick because of her reaction which was

either rage or anger at having to take me to the doctor and being

inconvenienced or raging at me because I had difficulty taking the

medication. She was and is a coldhearted selfish b*tch. When I was 18 I had

an e-coli infection and strep throat at the same time. I was home sick for

days and couldn't go to class. I couldn't get out of bed because I was so

weak. I had a fever and was slipping in and out of consciousness for several

days because of it. She used to come in every morning wake me up and tell me

to go to class. I'd tell her I was too sick. She never said anything, she'd

just leave and go to work. I got myself to the doctor and the pharmacy.

Years later when I told her about the infection and how it led to another

health problem she had no recollection that I was even sick. My dad

remembered because he was the one who checked on me everyday. There are many

examples of this throughout the years.

[Guest guest]

Every one of these incidents in this thread are describing criminal child abuse

and neglect. The injustice literally makes me want to vomit.

There was one post from about year ago where the member described a childhood

incident in which her nada was beating her and *broke her arm* (the member's

arm) but then when the fada came home, the nada denied it and had a " nervous

breakdown. " Neither " parent " could be bothered to take their suffering child to

the hospital. I think the member posted that her aunt finally took the child to

get the arm set, but not right away, so the child had to endure severe pain for

*days* until someone finally took pity on her and got her medical attention.

And of course the child was terrorized into lying about the incident so the

parents would not be prosecuted.

And of course it goes without saying that the pd sexual predators who rape their

own children/other kids are in the same category; they are all diseased vermin

passing as " mothers " and " fathers " , and know very well that they have committed

criminal acts and they just don't want to get caught and punished themselves.

So what if they have a personality disorder? I don't care, I really don't.

They don't deserve any more pity or mercy or compassion than they have shown to

their helpless children. They should all die in prison from untreated beating

injuries and nasty diseases.

-Annie

>

> same as my nada....when we were sick, she'd give us a bucket to vomit in, so

> we wouldn't get her up. I am allergic to bees..I got stung by 2 in the

> throat and had trouble breathing, nada wouldn't take me to the hospital

> until her favorite soap opera was over...good think my oldest sister was

> there and could drive !! SHE took me to the hospital...once the

> neighborhood kids were playing " kick the can " and I was the last person in,

> so I got to kick it, and the boy had to be " it " again...he got angry and

> threw the can at me, it sliced open my ear, and nada was screaming at me for

> getting hurt and inconviencing them...again !!

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Well that's just awful, and I can totally relate. I posted the other day

> about going to my nada when I had dropped a knife into my toe and her just

> looking at me saying " well dont just stand there...take it out " , and I also

> remember being very sick one night and throwing up in my bed and my Fada not

> doing a thing about it and just telling me to go back to sleep next to the

> puke.

>

> So yeah...I did just stop complaining or mentioning that anything was wrong.

> What good did it do?

>

> I bruise easily...or maybe not...anyway...I get bruises and cant even tell

> you where they came from. High tolerance for pain my booty. I think my

> body just learned at an early age not to register pain cause there was

> nothing to be done about it anyway.

>

> You're not a bad kid and neither was I. Stupid selfish nadas and fadas.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, my Nada would do this, too. I would feel uncomfortable about asking for

help, and do it myself. Later, if she heard about it, she'd ask the same thing:

" why didn't you ask for help? "

Sometimes, she'd ask this question in front of people...as if she KNEW it would

help her appearance.

-Joy

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house.

> I was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm

> not sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> reading the first page:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Joy, oh yes always an audience is there to hear what awful, willful and

horrible daughters we are eh?

A few months ago she asked me why it was that I never confide in her and

never ask for help. She said it must be my father's fault. I didn't even

respond.

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of joy.lynch54

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 11:25 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

Wow, my Nada would do this, too. I would feel uncomfortable about asking for

help, and do it myself. Later, if she heard about it, she'd ask the same

thing: " why didn't you ask for help? "

Sometimes, she'd ask this question in front of people...as if she KNEW it

would help her appearance.

-Joy

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's

house.

> I was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm

> not sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> reading the first page:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn, Its amazing how similar everyone's stories are. As someone said on this

thread: from Nada to Nada, stories are eerily alike.

My Nada has also blamed certain *normal*, independent behaviors that she doesn't

like on my father saying it is his fault. It gets 2 jobs done for a BPD I bet:

They get to blame 2 people at once, and we still end up feeling bad even though

its attributed to a blood relative.

-Joy

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's

> house.

> > I was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm

> > not sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed

> > reading the first page:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Joy,

Oh yes I agree but it does another job too. It sets us against the other

family members. She’s always doing that. Telling me bad stories about my

sister or my dad, not so much my brother. Sometimes my godmother too. So I

will be alienated from everyone but her? I always felt like my sister had

irrational anger and hatred towards me. It wasn’t until years later when

she was mature enough, and away from my nada long enough that she stopped

and asked my version of this or that event. And she realized we’d been

played against each other.

We’re still working on that relationship. I don’t think it will ever be a

strong one but we love one another and have let much of the old anger and

hatred go… now it’s just learning to trust when trust was something we both

have problems with.

Have you seen the Divine Secrets of the Ya Ya Sisterhood? I haven’t had the

courage to read the book but change the alcohol for food and prescription

drugs and you just about have my nada. Except mine doesn’t have a group of

close friends to keep her in line at all. And I don’t remember any of those

good times, with a close and fun mother that she had.

Still that’s probably what made me realize that I had a really screwed up

nada and needed to save myself. I always knew she was sick but I guess

until then I didn’t put together all the abuse and realize how it’s hurt me.

When her fiancé says to the nada that “It’s like she’s always waiting for

the bottom to fall out”.. and the nada says “that’s because it always did”.

Well… it did for me too. Better not to get a vested emotional interest in

anything or anyone, it would just be taken away or twisted, or used against

me.

Dawn

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of joy.lynch54

Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 9:16 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Found an old book on Assertiveness skills

Dawn, Its amazing how similar everyone's stories are. As someone said on

this thread: from Nada to Nada, stories are eerily alike.

My Nada has also blamed certain *normal*, independent behaviors that she

doesn't like on my father saying it is his fault. It gets 2 jobs done for a

BPD I bet: They get to blame 2 people at once, and we still end up feeling

bad even though its attributed to a blood relative.

-Joy

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's

> house.

> > I was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so

I'm

> > not sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I

enjoyed

> > reading the first page:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Dawn,

You wrote: " Better not to get a vested emotional interest in

anything or anyone, it would just be taken away or twisted, or used against me. "

Is this sentence from your perspective looking in at the " FOO " and seeing how

Nada is taking them away from you by pitting them against you? This is how I

feel.

Or, do you mean this is from a Nada's perspective of the world?

-Joy

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's

> > house.

> > > I was surprised to find it.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so

> I'm

> > > not sure if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I

> enjoyed

> > > reading the first page:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I just thought of something else in regards to the rages. When I was 5-6 years

old, I was petrified of thunder and lightning. More so the thunder. I lived in

Tennessee then, and the thunder storms seemed so much more, uh, 'thunderous'

then the ones here, where I have been living for quite some time. There were

also hurricanes in TN,which explained why so many people had underground

basements.

Anyway, I was so scared I would run into my parents' room...aka Nada and

father's room (not sure if my father was a 'fada' although he wasn't perfect.

So, yes...I would run into their room totally freaked and would pounce on their

bed and say I was scared.

My Nada would be super PO'ed, and tell me to march straight back to my bedroom

and to not wake her and my father up again.

I would go back to my room completely petrified still and often laid awake for

hours during those thunder storms. I wished so badly for someone to hold me or

at least tell me everything would be okay. I would squeeze my doll and it

helped. At least my younger sister was in the room with me. She was a very deep

sleeper, but at least knowing the storms didn't affect her calmed me.

Still, I can't believe how lonely and alone I actually was without a real

parent. My Nada divorced when I was eight, and I never saw my father again. My

Nada went to court and had a restraining order put on my father. I honestly

don't remember a whole lot. But my fada/father may have had a PD also. I saw him

twice push/shove my Nada.

-Joy

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I found an interesting book the other day at a friend's house. I was

surprised to find it.

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> > > > > > It is about assertiveness training. It looked older, so I'm not sure

if it's still out. It was pretty extensive though; and I enjoyed reading the

first page:

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> > > > > > " When I Say No, I Feel Guilty " by Manual J. , Ph.D.

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