Re: I dun' get it...

June 2, 2000

Carol, I think you have to watch Star Trek to know this. I heard thawt term

while someone else was watching it. I don't know the definition.

Charlene

- Re: Re: I dun' get it...

Sorry if this is a silly question but what is an AA Borg?

>This has got to be one of the most far reaching expressions of the AA

>Borg I have yet to encounter on this list. Assimilated and yet still

>believing one is actually acting out of some type of compassionate

>autonomy for the good of friendship.By stretching the imagination one

>can bath in such endearing self talk about ones support of AA by

>attendance and claim such attendance is justified by the need to

>maintain individual friendships with the Borg. Is this a valid

>disclaimer? I think not. Attendance is voluntary support poured into

>the AA basin of agreement and feeds it's power structure. To mask

>such support using the noble expression of friendship is the type of

>self deception that AA thrives one. Fertilizer for the AA borg.

>Pathetic to think that one would defend one's AA contribution with

>such babble speak about compassion and not wanting to hurt friends

>feelings.

>Freedom from AA and possibly for some freedom from abstinence is

>something they and you my good man haven't got a clue about yet.

>

>>

>> Basically, the main reason I go to AA these days is to spend time

>with my

>> friends I've made there. As far as the coffee in the coffee shop

>goes, most

>> of the time we are not talking about God, Steps, Program etc. Of

>course that

>> stuff does come up, but we sort of have an unwritten rule to use

>our time

>> together doing something else.

>>

>> I go when one of the people I have been friends with is having an

>> anniversary. I do it out of friendship and respect for that person

>because it

>> means a lot to them to have their friends there..

>>

>> I go because I like the person who is celebrating, and the last

>thing I want

>> to do is hurt them by not showing up.I remember when I was

>celebrating my

>> anniversaries, I would be very hurt if someone who I considered a

>friend not

>> just an AA acquantice, did not show up.

>>

>> In the last 2 months since I've been on this list I've been to

>about 6

>> meetings, 3 Pills Anonymous Meetings and 3 AA meetings. I have also

>spent

>> time camping with people I've known from AA going to baseball games

>with

>> friends from AA, and going on a couple of dates with a woman that

>had stopped

>> coming to AA a couple of years ago.

>>

>> I have always been able to separate the program-- Steps, slogans,

>etc.Big

>> Book Dogma-- from the fellowship. I have relationships with people

>from AA

>> going back 20 years. I choose to keep these relationships going.

>Not many

>> people have friends that go back 20 years. BTW, the guy I am

>friends with for

>> 20 years stopped going to meetings in his 3rd year.

>>

>> I never really felt brainwashed by AA. I had no problem with the

>religion

>> because I am a believer. Always was, always will be. I did have a

>problem

>> with the form of God that has become what I call the " AA God " .

>>

>> The AA GOD is an interventionist God. He knows where every sparrow

>falls. He

>> puts people in our path to show us the light. This is what has

>evolved in 60

>> + years in AA. This is the God that is pushed on people when they

>come into

>> the program. The people who push this are usually the type of

>people who will

>> accept any dogma that an " oldtimer " tells them. They are not that

>bright, and

>> have no understanding of how most issues have various shades of

>gray. To

>> these people, everything is black and white.

>>

>> Do I believe in this God? I never say what kind of God I believe in

>because I

>> believe religion, spirituality of anything along these lines is

>something

>> that is nobody's business but my own. Converselty, even when I was

>active in

>> AA, I never asked someone about their spiritual beliefs. People who

>have

>> known me 10 years in AA would not be able to state with any

>accuracy what, if

>> any kind of God I believe in.

>>

>> Than thre is another reason people go back to meetings even when

>their inner

>> guide tells them it is ludicrous. In every group I've ever been in,

>I have

>> found a few people who I enjoy being with. The way I look at it,

>being with

>> friends, is a lot better than sitting home by myself surfing the

>web.

>>

>

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June 2, 2000

Let's not call an arse an ass!

.

>From: watts_pete@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: I dun' get it...

>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:58:28 -0000

>

>Hi Judith

>

>Im just a bit paranoid. Pity I aint a lawyer; apparently the best

>ones

>are a bit.

>

>Funny thing is, I am very rarely like this f2f. Im a bit of a wimp

>there. Also, I learnt my bad language from Americans, I swear -

>mostly

>from American fiction. No excuse of course, because I chose to adopt

>it, but Brits never used to use an expression like 'dumb fuck' for

>example until the last 30 yrs or so I think.

>

>I was playing chess in the park with some friends and some young teen

>girls joined us (13 & 14 apparently, but they looked younger) and

>asked to play. One of them started crying out 'Im going to kick your

>sorry asses'. Brits never said 'ass', they said 'arse', so they

>almost certainly got that from an American source.

>

>But, excuses over,

>I like you too.

>

>P.

>

> > > > > I wasn't aware you felt that one day you could ever walk in

>to

> > > one of

> > > > > " Those Rooms " again. It comes as a shock to me after some

>of

> > > the

> > > things

> > > > > I've seen you write.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I have a question for you - and indeed, for anyone who

>feels

> > > the same

> > > > > way, feels that their time in AA or NA might not be

>completely

> > > over yet.

> > > > >

> > > > > That question is...

> > > > >

> > > > > ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS?!?!?!

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually, no. That's not my question (though it sort of is

>I

> > > guess...)

> > > > > My real question is...

> > > > >

> > > > > WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

> > > >

> > > > _______________________________________________________

> > > > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

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> > >

> >

> > _______________________________________________________

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June 2, 2000

Let's not call an arse an ass!

.

>From: watts_pete@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: I dun' get it...

>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:58:28 -0000

>

>Hi Judith

>

>Im just a bit paranoid. Pity I aint a lawyer; apparently the best

>ones

>are a bit.

>

>Funny thing is, I am very rarely like this f2f. Im a bit of a wimp

>there. Also, I learnt my bad language from Americans, I swear -

>mostly

>from American fiction. No excuse of course, because I chose to adopt

>it, but Brits never used to use an expression like 'dumb fuck' for

>example until the last 30 yrs or so I think.

>

>I was playing chess in the park with some friends and some young teen

>girls joined us (13 & 14 apparently, but they looked younger) and

>asked to play. One of them started crying out 'Im going to kick your

>sorry asses'. Brits never said 'ass', they said 'arse', so they

>almost certainly got that from an American source.

>

>But, excuses over,

>I like you too.

>

>P.

>

> > > > > I wasn't aware you felt that one day you could ever walk in

>to

> > > one of

> > > > > " Those Rooms " again. It comes as a shock to me after some

>of

> > > the

> > > things

> > > > > I've seen you write.

> > > > >

> > > > > So I have a question for you - and indeed, for anyone who

>feels

> > > the same

> > > > > way, feels that their time in AA or NA might not be

>completely

> > > over yet.

> > > > >

> > > > > That question is...

> > > > >

> > > > > ARE YOU FUCKING NUTS?!?!?!

> > > > >

> > > > > Actually, no. That's not my question (though it sort of is

>I

> > > guess...)

> > > > > My real question is...

> > > > >

> > > > > WHY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

> > > >

> > > > _______________________________________________________

> > > > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> > > > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

> > >

> >

> > _______________________________________________________

> > Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite

> > Visit http://freelane.excite.com/freeisp

>

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June 2, 2000

Dear Judith,

" Slippery as an eel " -- most certainly, and USA has done little for English

usage since c. 1850!

Time to rock on with stepNazis Inc., huh? Yellow guys are chicken??!!??

Getting late here in U.K. ( " We shall never surrender " -- WSC) as we know and

love it, so " So long " for now,

Yours,

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Re: I dun' get it...

>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:44:06 -0700 (PDT)

>

>On Wed, 31 May 2000 23:58:28 -0000, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> > Hi Judith

> >

> > Im just a bit paranoid. Pity I aint a lawyer; apparently the best ones

>are a bit.

>

>Is it too late for you to become a lawyer? I think you'd be good at it too.

>See, I don't really think you're paranoid. I think you've been burned in

>the

>past and you're self-protective. When I went back and read Mike's first

>post

>and your response to it, I interpreted what you wrote as setting clearly

>defined boundaries. I think that's appropriate to do in here.

>

>I almost think, at this point, that the phrase " AA apologist " should be

>defined in the intro description of the group, so that people understand

>what that accusation really means. According to my paperback dictionary, an

>apologist is someone who " defends or attempts to justify " AA, which is

>exactly what I was when I came here. I was taking all the responsibility

>for

>my experience in 12 step treatment, whereas now I am gradually learning to

>hold AA accountable. No matter that organizational AA is slippery as an eel

>when it comes to accountability for bad behavior--that just makes AA look

>bad.

>

>I recognize that it's uncomfortable for someone who is like me when I came

>here, to hear people not cut AA any slack at all. Still, it is my opinion

>that 12sf is not the place to defend AA. Also in my opinion, people who

>want

>to talk about AA reform belong on a pro-AA list. On the continuum of " pro

>AA " vs. " anti AA, " I think it's a good thing for people to question their

>position, even though the process of questioning one's beliefs is

>uncomfortable.

>

>And I further recognize that I am being selfish. Yes I am, just as selfish

>as someone who demands the right to defend AA on 12sf.

>

> > Funny thing is, I am very rarely like this f2f. Im a bit of a wimp

>there.

>

>I have no problem believing this. I'm different in 3d too. But I think I

>have been learning to have a more integrated identity in the course of

>overcoming my own AA apologism (if that's even a word.)

>

> > Also, I learnt my bad language from Americans, I swear - mostly from

>American fiction. No excuse of course, because I chose to adopt it, but

>Brits never used to use an expression like 'dumb fuck' for example until

>the

>last 30 yrs or so I think.

>

>ly I like to swear, but with my own sensitivity to verbal abuse, I

>have

>grown cautious. If even one person in a group interprets swearing as a

>verbal attack, I'd prefer to just express myself with other words. Because

>once someone feels attacked, their ability to listen is compromised.

>

> > I was playing chess in the park with some friends and some young teen

>girls joined us (13 & 14 apparently, but they looked younger) and asked to

>play. One of them started crying out 'Im going to kick your sorry asses'.

>Brits never said 'ass', they said 'arse', so they almost certainly got that

>from an American source.

>

>I always figured that, with the softened " R " in British English, " arse "

>ended up sounding almost identical to the American " ass. " It must be the

> " a "

>sound that's different.

>

> > But, excuses over,

> > I like you too.

>

>hehe, I can't think of one person in my life that I don't have difficulties

>with. Doesn't mean I have to stop caring about them. And a mailing list

>relationship is really pretty easy to maintain, relative to a marriage or a

>working relationship. Or a family or a long-term friendship. Or a

>relationship with neighbors.

>

>I'm becoming very critical of the idea of codependence. I think there is

>validity to it sometimes, but I also think sometimes it's a convenient

>excuse to throw away a perfectly good relationship. I think suicidal

>impulses could be described as the desire to end the codependent

>relationship one has with one's difficult, imperfect self. But that is

>another thread...

>

>Judith

>

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June 2, 2000

" All that phoney stuff on sport and all the unconfirmed reports " --

Zappa, " Trouble Comin' Every Day " ,

Yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: " '12-step-freeegroups' " <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: I dun' get it...

>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:44:55 -0400

>

>Sue -

>

>I hear ya all the way.... " social aspect " ?????? Are they nuts????? So you

>can hang out at coffee joints with all these idiots going on and on about

>how they found god and their higher power and this and that....BS....I am

>puking along with you

>

>Carey

>

> Re: I dun' get it...

>

> DMT,

>

> Enjoyed your post. And I dun' get it either.

>

> People who say that they are going back for the " social aspect "

> amaze me. What friggin' social aspect?

> How can it be socially stimulating being in a room of slogan

> spewing non-thinkers? What can one possibly learn there?

> And to think that the AA's actually may " hear " a new concept

> or idea is ridiculous as well. To them, " we are the diseased. "

> It is harmful for them to listen, so they will run like the wind.

> Folks that think thoughts other than the " programmed

> information " MUST be shunned. They are too much of a danger

> to fragile " sobriety " and that good ol' " serenity. " (puke)

> As I don't intend to allow alcohol to ever have a hold on

> me again, so I feel about AA. Both steal my mind, my time,

> and the new self worth I have come to enjoy.

> Are those that return doubting their own power? If so,

> I suggest that it is their own power that keeps them abstinent

> both in and out of those church basements.

>

> Sue

>

> >

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June 2, 2000

OK so i watch too much T.V. and I am a closet-Star Trek lover. Whew. Saw

an episode of Star Trek Voyager (not usually a fan, but this one was good!)

dealing with the Borg in which a mutation occured within the collective - to

a small percentage of assimilated people. In their dream states

(regeneration as they put it) they went to this fantasy garden-like place,

where they looked like themselves again and were able to form relationships

and experience themselves and each other as individuals. The Borg-chick in

charge tried to root them out and crash the party with her thugs ...

I'm kinda sentimental about Trek, but I found it poignant and strangely

familiar ...

>From: rita66@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Re: I dun' get it...

>Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:04:32 -0400 (EDT)

>

>Carol asked,

>

><< Sorry if this is a silly question but what is an AA Borg? >>

>

> Not a Star Trek fan, then?

>

> The Borg is a " collective " of various humanoid species who have

>been taken to the Borg ship and " assimilated " , i.e. given robotic

>implants endowing them with superhuman capabilities, and stripped of any

>individuality. " WE ARE THE BORG. YOUR BIOLOGICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL

>DISTINCTIVENESS WILL BE ADDED TO OUR OWN. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED;

>RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. " All Borg " drones " are possessed of collective

>thoughts and groups of them are given assignments, which they obey

>without question. One of the primary assignments is to " assimilate " new

>members into the collective. The application of Borg imagery to

>mindless slogan-spouting, identical-speaking AA'ers looking to " carry

>the message " as dictated by the 12th Step isn't hard.

>

> Personally, I remember with fondness the episode " Return of the

>Archons " from the original Star Trek -- the one with Landru? YOU ARE

>NOT OF " THE BODY " . YOU WILL BE ABSORBED. Also applicable to the

>12-step experience! -- " Landru is paradise. Landru gives peace, and

>serenity... "

>

>~Rita

>

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June 2, 2000

NAzi

-- You think you know f* evrything, but we know you know f* all,

yrs,

.

>From: mikena@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: I dun' get it...

>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:23:21 EDT

>

>In a message dated 6/1/00 2:08:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

>arroyoh@...

>writes:

>

> > n your zeal to get your ideas across you're showing little care for

> > the members of this list who have been violated by AA.

> >

>

>Would you like me to rather state mistruths?

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June 2, 2000

WH Auden:

(voice of totalitarianism in " Commentary " , 1938):

" Man can have Unity if Man will give up Freedom . . .

Leave Truth to the police and us . . . "