Guest guest Posted April 23, 1999 Report Share Posted April 23, 1999 Hi Pete and Mike, When I was in collage I took the general course that was required for CACs in that area. I remember learning that the whole disease theory/12 step treatment model was developed in Minnesota. It is referred to as the Minnesota model. I would guess that given the financial recourses of the treatment centers, only a very principled politician from any party would speak up about the church/state issues etc., and then he/she would probably see a windfall for their opponent from 12 step lobbying groups. So most probably leave the issue alone. sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 Hello Mike Tx for the reply. I think though you mean " Hazelden " instead of " Hazelton " . The former is the archetypal Minnesota rehab. Best, P. > In a message dated 4/19/00 3:44:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > awatt04@s... writes: > > > In my experience support for AA is often linked to political > > conservatism - a Democrat might support it perhaps because of > > well-meaning ignorance as to its true nature, but many a Repiblican > > may actually *like it* for its proto-facist nature, imo. > > The reason it is supported by most politicians in Minnesota, from Right Wing > Authoritarian, Liberals, Libertarians, and probably Perot's party, the name > eludes me at the moment, is because Minnesota is known as the " recovery > state. " > > It of course has Hazelton, which many other rehabs are based on. It also > contains quite a few other rehabs, as well as detoxes, aftercare clinics and > sober houses. I read somewhere that when after a member completes treatment > at Hazelton. and most people who go to Hazelton are prosperous, they are > asked to stay in Minnesota, and get a sober job, which means one of very > little status, so the member gets a good dose of humility. > > Man when I got sober the last thing I needed was a humbling job. I felt so > bad about myself for so long, that putting on the Mickey D uniform, or > cleaning toilets at the city buildings was not something that would have > helped my sobriety. > > But then before I came into AA I wasn't very prosperous and couldn't have > afforded Hazelton anyway. > > > M > > So a politician supporting AA in Minnesota is like a Texan supporting an > " oil depletion allowance in the tax code. " > > M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 Hi Jan, sure, modern AA may shirk traditional religions like Christianity - but I feel that is because they now see them as *competitors*. I think that now there are really *two* AA's b- the traditional, which if not pro-Christian is sociopolitically conservative, and the new variant you refer too - and I have seen an AA themself rue this fact, and talk abt how traditional AA's are now holding secret meetings again, in order to avoid the fuzzy liberals. P. > > > > > > > > << ...even if it were possible to show that there exist some > > people who > > > > go to AA and get sober, who would not have gotten sober had they > > not > > > > gone to AA or something very much like it, I would still quibble > > with > > > > the the notion that this means " AA works " for some people. AA, as > > it > > > > describes itself, involves the invocation of supernatural > > assistance. > > > > Unless you can conclusively prove that somebody went to AA and > > was > > then, > > > > as a result, zapped sober by the Great Spook, you have no > > conclusion. > > > > > > > > I might, of course, more readily accept some other claim, such as > > that > > > > " group support helps. " >> > > > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > > > > > > Absolutely 100% right on, Wally. I really fail to see how, > > if > > > > someone discontinues drinking and concurrently happens to attend > > AA > > > > meetings, " work the steps " , etc., that this is " proof " that > > " working the > > > > steps " is what got them sober, or that they could not have gotten > > sober > > > > without AA. The problem, I think, is that AA literature > > specifically > > > > forbids anyone from taking credit for their own sobriety; you > > must > > give > > > > ALL credit to God/HP and to the AA fellowship, and are NEVER to > > believe > > > > in your own power. > > > > > > > > Now if one of the many people who self-recovered found > > > > companionship and purpose, etc., in a bird-watching club, and > > felt > > less > > > > lonely/more fulfilled in their (now sober) life, they would > > hardly > > be > > > > likely to say that bird-watching " made " them sober, or that their > > > > sobriety hinges on regular attendance at bird-watchings! They > > would > > > > simply say (if asked at all) that they decided to stop drinking, > > and > > > > that they enjoy the ornithology club. > > > > > > > > I would really like it if someone would actually do a study, > > with a > > > > statistically significant sample, comparing problem drinkers who > > embark > > > > on sobriety while attending clubs or groups which have nothing to > > do > > > > with substance abuse, to people who attend specifically > > > > recovery-oriented groups (further broken down into 12-step v. > > > > non-12-step). That would answer the question of whether > > companionship > > > > and purpose are the true aspects of AA which have any benefit, > > rather > > > > than the weird meanderings of step-work. > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > Chocolate eggs, tulips, bunnies and more... > > > > Click Here > > > > http://click./1/3120/1/_/4324/_/955731704/ > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > > Click here for more details. > > http://click./1/3011/1/_/4324/_/956130253/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 Hi Wally On second thoughts I am probably mistaken, and I read the story where you did, in AA Comes of Age. Again, my memory says this guy was called Walter, and I bet I'm wrong abt that too! Probably the funnies ,moment I ever had in XA was when a guy said (truthfully I believe) that earlier that day he had seen a man carrying a long pole, and had said to him " Are you a pole vaulter? " to which he replied " No, I'm a German and how did you know my name was Walter? " ! recently, I have seen Scot comedian Connolly tell this story as a joke, but Im convinced the guy I heard was telling it straight up, and ppl like me repeating it eventually got it to Connolly. P. > > > > Ken Ragge, in " More Revealed, " relates the story of how > > and his > > cronies schemed to hold , an early miracle of > >recovery, captive and > > dry long enough for to appear on > >Heatter's radio program and > > spread the word. This incident demonstrates that > >et. al were > > perfectly cognizant of the fact that they were > >perpetrating a fraud on the > > public. > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > >Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > >reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > >Click here for more details. > >http://click./1/3011/1/_/4324/_/956124420/ > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 In a message dated 4/21/00 8:11:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, uusean@... writes: > So most probably leave the issue alone. > In actuality one of the senators from Minnesota, Wellstone, is probably the Senate's most liberal member. He was one the the few Senators up for reelection in 1996, who voted against The Welfare " Reform " Bill. In his case I believe that whartever he does he is doing so because he belives it is the right thing to do. It is not so he will be elected again, since he has said he is serving his last term, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2000 Report Share Posted April 25, 2000 In a message dated 4/21/00 8:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, awatt04@... writes: > nd I have seen an AA themself rue this fact, > and talk abt how traditional AA's are now holding secret meetings > again, in order to avoid the fuzzy liberals. I can't believe it but I have to agree with something you say Pete. The secret meetings are going on, but the people I know you attend them I wouldn't even drink with in my drinking days. This started for a few reason, the first because they wanted to get away from " cross addicted " people like me. They are connected to the Atlantic group I believe which was formed by someone from the Pacific group. I would love to go to one of these meetings to see what bullshit they are sprewing. But since most people in NY AA know where I stand on issues like this,. I djo not think I will be getting an invitation soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 > > I can't believe it but I have to agree with something you say Pete. The reason for our lates exchange was I actually prefixed an expression of liking for what you are saying with " I would be much happier with your presence on this list if you wrote more things like this. " . You didn't seem to make it past the first phrase. I have also asked you to enlarge on the changes in AA that you say you despise. I'd still be interested to hear more abt them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.