Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

[Guest guest]

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I

am more just passionate about autism. As are you.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley

wrote:

> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and

> then

> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA.

> Using

> reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function

> of

> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

>

> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>>

>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

>> your first cup of java?

>>

>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And

>> all

>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

>> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerp

>> s in

>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

>> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

>>

>> *From:* sList

>> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

>> *To:* sList

>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Tina, I think what you said was good.

>>

[Guest guest]

That makes 3 of us....Tina I am making more coffee if you would like some more.

To: "sList " <sList >Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 12:34:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I am more just passionate about autism. As are you.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley <_Farley@ yahoo.com> wrote:> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and > then> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA. > Using> reinforcement- based

practices over punishment-based practices whenever> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function > of> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.>> Heifferon wrote:>>>>>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is>> your first cup of java?>>>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And >> all>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR>> Program is

suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerp >> s in>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths>> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.>>>> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> [mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM>> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> *Subject:* Re:

Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>>>>>>>> Tina, I think what you said was good.>>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for listing and dissecting those ABA Principles for

me. So, all these borrowed principles are found in a session where the teacher

has a group of students and tries them out. Keeping in mind that Lovaas

suggested 30 to 40 hours per week. How many are in the session and how long is

the session. What can be accomplished in 15 minutes?

Here is a link you can check out:

http://www.lovaas.com/

Actually teachers shouldn’t be doing anything regarding behavior.

It is outside their domain. You can have all the degrees in Education and that may

qualify you to teach but autism and its manifestations are part of the

Behaviorist’s Domain. And although the therapist can be trained to do the

trials it needs to be supervised by the appropriate certified behaviorist. I

don’t mean to be vulgar but the educator gets involved and screws everything up

because he feels his education qualifies him to be a behaviorist. The educator

has the wrong course study.

And if I may ask, how many psychologists are certified to

supervise this area and how many do?

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Tina Terri Austin

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:35 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I

am more just passionate about autism. As are you.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley

wrote:

> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and

> then

> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA.

> Using

> reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function

> of

> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

>

> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>>

>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

>> your first cup of java?

>>

>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And

>> all

>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

>> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerp

>> s in

>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

>> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

>>

>> *From:* sList

>> [mailto:sList ]

*On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

>> *To:* sList

>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Tina, I think what you said was good.

>>

[Guest guest]

I really wasn't referring to severely autistic children. We need to recognize

the spectrum for it is. I don't think you have to choose between the child never

learning to wipe his behind and making change. The STAR Program needs to be

flexible, a problem most programs don’t have. Remember we are talking about a

spectrum and not everyone can or should be placed in the same mold as everyone

else. I'm saying if the child has the potential for academics there should be a

shift from a day that is predominantly occupational therapy. The flexibility

isn't there. Don't tell me it should be resolved in the IEP because the majority

rules and you are outnumbered. Of course you can take it to due process and find

yourself in front of a judge (state employee) who may directly or indirectly be

thinking about furthering his career and really doesn't want to rock the boat.

There is the appeal process... who has the money for this crap? Amen.

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

> > Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

> > that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

> > programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

> > we want to move.

> > > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> > according to another post...

> > > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> > never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > > Thank you so much

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

You raise some issues that have been on my mind a lot lately. And, I can

honestly say I have more questions and tentative ideas than I have

answers at this point.

I can't speak to what goes on in Broward schools, or in Florida teacher

education programs--I just moved here from Central Texas in February,

and I lived there for a little less than 18 years.

Some special ed programs do a better job than others of equipping their

teacher trainees with adequate behavioral knowledge to work with

students with autism. You won't get any disagreement from me there.

My encounters with curriculum & instruction and with educational

psychology were very frustrating--I went into several courses in these

departments as an avid behaviorist and heard pretty much everyone in the

room but me (including the instructor!) talk about behaviorism as being

passe, primitive, and unenlightened--they spoke, instead, of cognitive

theory, philosophies where the learner " constructs " his/her knowledge,

and the techniques that follow from these theories and philosophies.

It's not so much that you teach the child the principles I mentioned;

rather, you use those principles TO teach the child. So, as I reflect

more on the conversation over the past few days, I'm thinking that your

issue is with WHAT children with autism are taught. So, at its core, a

curriculum and instruction issue? I think of the instruction, or

teaching, part as involving the teacher's/therapist's/behavior analyst's

knowledge of ABA principles and how to apply them. I think of the

curriculum, or knowledge and skills part, as involving decisions about

WHAT knowledge and WHICH skills the student should have, and how that

progress should be broken down and sequenced.

I'll have to appeal to any psychologists out there to speak to the issue

of how well different courses of study do/don't prepare them for

behavioral intervention. Anyone? Anyone?

I hesitate to say that ALL educators have the wrong course study. And, I

do worry sometimes about some of the BCBAs and BCaBAs out there who

don't have at least SOME working knowledge of education and of

developmental psychology --I worry that they are at a disadvantage when

they go into early childhood and public school settings, because they

can't always translate their ideas into terms that other professionals

can get on-board with, particularly if those professionals have a bias

against behaviorism. I also think that having such knowledge of other

disciplines and professions can help them apply their behavioral

knowledge more flexibly, rather than pushing intervention plans that

have technical adequacy but poor contextual fit. At least, this was my

experience--I think I became a better interventionist when I became more

receptive to the knowledge base not only of ABA but of speech &

language, early childhood/child development, and occupational therapy.

I better stop here--it's getting late, I'm tired, and I'm not sure I'm

making sense anymore.... But, for what they're worth, those are my

thoughts. Thanks for the response--I've enjoyed and been challenged (in

a good way!) by the conversation of these past several days!

Heifferon wrote:

>

>

> Thank you for listing and dissecting those ABA Principles for me. So,

> all these borrowed principles are found in a session where the teacher

> has a group of students and tries them out. Keeping in mind that

> Lovaas suggested 30 to 40 hours per week. How many are in the session

> and how long is the session. What can be accomplished in 15 minutes?

>

> Here is a link you can check out:

>

> http://www.lovaas.com/ <http://www.lovaas.com/>

>

> Actually teachers shouldn’t be doing anything regarding behavior. It

> is outside their domain. You can have all the degrees in Education and

> that may qualify you to teach but autism and its manifestations are

> part of the Behaviorist’s Domain. And although the therapist can be

> trained to do the trials it needs to be supervised by the appropriate

> certified behaviorist. I don’t mean to be vulgar but the educator gets

> involved and screws everything up because he feels his education

> qualifies him to be a behaviorist. The educator has the wrong course

> study.

>

> And if I may ask, how many psychologists are certified to supervise

> this area and how many do?

>

> *From:* sList

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *Tina Terri Austin

> *Sent:* Monday, June 01, 2009 12:35 PM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

>

>

>

> Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I

> am more just passionate about autism. As are you.

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley

> <_Farley@... <mailto:_Farley%40yahoo.com>> wrote:

>

> > We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

> > interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and

> > then

> > re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

> > individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

> > using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

> > behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

> > using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA.

> > Using

> > reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

> > possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

> > conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function

> > of

> > behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

> > can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

> > from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

> > principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

> > just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

> >

> > Heifferon wrote:

> >>

> >>

> >> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

> >> your first cup of java?

> >>

> >> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And

> >> all

> >> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

> >> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerp

> >> s in

> >> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

> >> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

> >> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

> >>

> >> *From:* sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> [mailto:sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

> >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

> >> *To:* sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Tina, I think what you said was good.

> >>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, please! We should have a coffee group to discuss these things!

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:20 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

That makes 3 of us....Tina I am making more coffee if you would like some more.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandtbellsouth (DOT) net>To: "sList " <sList >Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 12:34:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I am more just passionate about autism. As are you.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley <_Farley@ yahoo.com> wrote:> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and > then> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA. > Using> reinforcement- based practices over punishment-based practices whenever> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function > of> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.>> Heifferon wrote:>>>>>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is>> your first cup of java?>>>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And >> all>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR>> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerp >> s in>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths>> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.>>>> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> [mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM>> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>>>>>>>> Tina, I think what you said was good.>>