Re: Back from hades

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

What I meant was that I refuse to be her nurse if she moves in. I agree with

everything you have said in this post. I'm calling her insurance today and

Hospice to get more info. I am grappling right now with doing what is " right " . I

still have some soul searching to do.

> >

> > I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her living

trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but my T

said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off big

time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't take

it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such hostility

that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is. Talking to her

is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I offer a simple

solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet she'll make one

up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her crying. The crying!

Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> > She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I didn't

ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> > " To my daughter,

> > Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and pride

I have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me in

your heart answering. Mommy "

> > Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading

that.

> > I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try she

ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about her

she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a problem.

I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her, letters she has

written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers- I mean why

would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket? Anyway I

flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in time I

feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me to lay

down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me she won't

let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't help it. It's

like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I can get away

from her.

> > This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> > I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just

waiting for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her.

I practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she

could again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not

move in with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't

know if she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm

asking her to move in with me again.

> > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm

not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I

do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I

can just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Just a thought - is there an inpatient hospice facility closeby to you? That

maybe only for end-stage care, but if so perhaps they could give you some

suggestions of things that are available in your area about which you are not

yet aware.

Take care,

>

> I wish I could set her up in an apt close by. The problem is 1) she won't do

it 2) the cost of living where I live is unreal, so probably couldn't do it

anyway. (I checked into this briefly) I'm calling her insurance company to see

about a nurse coming to the house. Also about an inpatient care facility.

[Guest guest]

Is this faulty thinking?

What if nada moves in and like Annie and suggested, I have both hospice

and a care-taker come almost every day. They do all the nursing stuff. I don't

mind cooking for nada or cleaning her room since I would be doing that anyway.

Maybe nada will be in better spirits being around her granddaughter. That seems

to put her in a better frame of mind when I visit.

Is this a pipe dream? Maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? I have fallen in this trap

of thinking before. It's just that yesterday I had a little softening of my

heart for nada. I don't want her to die alone. She's incredibly scared. I don't

think she has longer than 6 months, but who knows. Could I put up with it for

that long? It's not very long in reality, but it could feel like 30 years with

nada.

>

> I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her living

trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but my T

said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off big

time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't take

it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such hostility

that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is. Talking to her

is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I offer a simple

solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet she'll make one

up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her crying. The crying!

Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I didn't

ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> " To my daughter,

> Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and pride I

have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me in your

heart answering. Mommy "

> Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading that.

> I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try she

ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about her

she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a problem.

I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her, letters she has

written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers- I mean why

would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket? Anyway I

flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in time I

feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me to lay

down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me she won't

let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't help it. It's

like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I can get away

from her.

> This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just waiting

for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her. I

practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she could

again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not move in

with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't know if

she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm asking

her to move in with me again.

> But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have enough

for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm not

sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I do

honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I can

just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

>

[Guest guest]

I suspect it is faulty thinking. The problem with nadas is that

no matter what you give them, it isn't enough and they want

more. They want to be the center of your life and they don't

like it when you have a life of your own or any priorities that

are higher than their wants. They often want to turn your

children away from you and towards them too. Think about the

fact that if she's in your house you're not going to be able to

escape from her other than by staying away from home. Think

about what will happen when the initial joy of being near her

granddaughter wears off, which it will, and she starts making

demands of your daughter as well. How will your daughter handle

it if her grandnada starts saying bad things about you or doing

the same things to her that she did to you? You're the one who

knows her and knows what kind of behavior she engages in, but

from what you've said, I don't think it is realistic to think

that it wouldn't be so bad. Even if she only lives six months,

that is long enough to do a lot of damage to you and your

daughter and husband. Marriages can be broken by that type of

stress. The possible costs seem too high to me. Not living with

you doesn't mean she has to die alone. Having some sympathy for

her doesn't mean you have to let her cause further damage.

At 12:07 PM 07/29/2009 mozzarella27 wrote:

>Is this faulty thinking?

>What if nada moves in and like Annie and suggested, I

>have both hospice and a care-taker come almost every day. They

>do all the nursing stuff. I don't mind cooking for nada or

>cleaning her room since I would be doing that anyway. Maybe

>nada will be in better spirits being around her granddaughter.

>That seems to put her in a better frame of mind when I visit.

>Is this a pipe dream? Maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? I have

>fallen in this trap of thinking before. It's just that

>yesterday I had a little softening of my heart for nada. I

>don't want her to die alone. She's incredibly scared. I don't

>think she has longer than 6 months, but who knows. Could I put

>up with it for that long? It's not very long in reality, but it

>could feel like 30 years with nada.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Only you can decide what you can live with.

You cannot personally spend every waking moment with your terminally ill nada,

whether she is living in your home or not. That's just not realistic, and it

would hurt you and your family.

If it were me, I'd choose for her to stay in a nearby hospice facility so you

could visit her there. She would *not* be alone in hospice, its just that *you*

wouldn't be there 24/7.

But if you feel compelled to have her stay in your home, then yes, having a

visiting hospice worker *and* a elder-care provider in the daytime would be your

only salvation, IMHO.

Its kind of a no-win situation for you; either choice has negative aspects for

you. I'm sorry you're in that position. It sucks.

-Annie

> >

> > I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her living

trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but my T

said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off big

time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't take

it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such hostility

that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is. Talking to her

is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I offer a simple

solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet she'll make one

up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her crying. The crying!

Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> > She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I didn't

ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> > " To my daughter,

> > Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and pride

I have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me in

your heart answering. Mommy "

> > Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading

that.

> > I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try she

ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about her

she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a problem.

I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her, letters she has

written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers- I mean why

would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket? Anyway I

flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in time I

feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me to lay

down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me she won't

let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't help it. It's

like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I can get away

from her.

> > This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> > I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just

waiting for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her.

I practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she

could again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not

move in with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't

know if she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm

asking her to move in with me again.

> > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm

not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I

do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I

can just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

couldn't the nursing stuff all be done at nadas house with you coming to

cook/clean ?? and have hospice/some type of help stay with her 24/7 if need

be ?? I certainly wouldn't want my nada to move in with me under any

circumstance...I know how it would be...I was at nadas house during her

cancer treatments several years ago, and she was still a very nasty person

towards me...when my hose had bladder cancer, the U of I too a biopsy, and

said the horse had 6 weeks tops...she lived 1 year and 2 months!!

Jackie

Is this faulty thinking?

What if nada moves in and like Annie and suggested, I have both

hospice and a care-taker come almost every day. They do all the nursing

stuff. I don't mind cooking for nada or cleaning her room since I would be

doing that anyway. Maybe nada will be in better spirits being around her

granddaughter. That seems to put her in a better frame of mind when I visit.

Is this a pipe dream? Maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? I have fallen in this

trap of thinking before. It's just that yesterday I had a little softening

of my heart for nada. I don't want her to die alone. She's incredibly

scared. I don't think she has longer than 6 months, but who knows. Could I

put up with it for that long? It's not very long in reality, but it could

feel like 30 years with nada.

[Guest guest]

very good points !!!

Jackie

I suspect it is faulty thinking. The problem with nadas is that

no matter what you give them, it isn't enough and they want

more. They want to be the center of your life and they don't

like it when you have a life of your own or any priorities that

are higher than their wants. They often want to turn your

children away from you and towards them too. Think about the

fact that if she's in your house you're not going to be able to

escape from her other than by staying away from home. Think

about what will happen when the initial joy of being near her

granddaughter wears off, which it will, and she starts making

demands of your daughter as well. How will your daughter handle

it if her grandnada starts saying bad things about you or doing

the same things to her that she did to you? You're the one who

knows her and knows what kind of behavior she engages in, but

from what you've said, I don't think it is realistic to think

that it wouldn't be so bad. Even if she only lives six months,

that is long enough to do a lot of damage to you and your

daughter and husband. Marriages can be broken by that type of

stress. The possible costs seem too high to me. Not living with

you doesn't mean she has to die alone. Having some sympathy for

her doesn't mean you have to let her cause further damage.

[Guest guest]

Mozz -

Sigh... It's a pipe dream. It's sweet, but as you say, " faulty " thinking. You

want her to turn into the nice mom you wanted, as she lives her last days. You

feel that having that extra help will make her satisfied, and that having her

granddaughter will make her behave.

Not gonna happen.

My mom was living with us, supposed to be the " granny nanny " for my infant son,

and we'd bought a new house with an in-law suite for her, paid for her move, put

up with all kinds of stuff to move her in (because I could not afford to keep

paying the rent on her place AND pay the new house bills) - She was then

diagnosed with breast cancer. I took her to doctor's appointments. I worked

all day, came home, cooked a meal for my husband and me, a separate bland meal

for her, and then fed the baby. I dealt with the household chores. We hired a

nanny to look after the baby. Nada had no household expenses, no difficulty

getting to her appointments, no lack of contact with her baby grandson...

And she said I didn't spend enough time just sitting with her. She said I was

cold and callous. She said the " stress " of living with us was what caused her

cancer.

Leopards do not change their spots just because they're old and sick. In fact,

being ill makes them feel even more waif-like, even better able to justify

dishing out the abuse. And since they can't yell at the doctor, can't yell at

the hospice worker, guess who's going to get the brunt of the vitriol?

Yep. It's gonna fall right on your head.

It sounds like you're almost trying to " make a deal " - " let me just move her in

and work like a dog, and maybe she'll finally be nice, finally love me, finally

think I'm OK " - but that's magical thinking.

If you put her in a care facility, you can go visit every day and stay as long

as you're able to take it - then go home to your sanctuary. If she's in your

house, you will NOT be able to get away from her. The aides will not work to

her satisfaction. No one will be able to do the work as well as you, and as you

try and try to keep her happy, she will bleed you dry. And when she dies, she

will find a way to say you didn't do enough.

I believe you are a kind, loving daughter who wants the best for her mother. I

commend you for having a caring heart. But I have done what you're about to do,

and I am telling you that this part of your life with your young family should

be filled with sweet memories for you - not a black, bleak period of misery

filled with disassociative lapses because Nada is driving you insane.

-

> >

> > I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her living

trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but my T

said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off big

time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't take

it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such hostility

that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is. Talking to her

is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I offer a simple

solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet she'll make one

up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her crying. The crying!

Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> > She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I didn't

ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> > " To my daughter,

> > Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and pride

I have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me in

your heart answering. Mommy "

> > Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading

that.

> > I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try she

ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about her

she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a problem.

I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her, letters she has

written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers- I mean why

would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket? Anyway I

flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in time I

feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me to lay

down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me she won't

let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't help it. It's

like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I can get away

from her.

> > This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> > I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just

waiting for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her.

I practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she

could again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not

move in with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't

know if she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm

asking her to move in with me again.

> > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm

not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I

do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I

can just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

I have no wise words or experience to share with you. I just want you to know

that my heart goes out to you. This is such a hard situation you have been put

in. I think the one thing I would encourage you to think about is your child; do

I recall correctly that she is still an infant? If not, I'd be concerned about

nada's effect on her; if nada's passing is difficult, how would it affect your

own child?; what has been the longest nada has been around her granddaughter -

if she thinks she's cute for a few days or a couple of weeks, will that last as

she get sicker and closer to death? if there is too much emotional stress for

you, how does that translate to your own child and your ability to care for her?

if this goes on much longer than you anticipate, what is your plan to deal with

it? I'm not saying I feel either solution is right or wrong. I am saying that

these are things it might be good to think through no matter what you decide. I

don't envy your position, friend. I will support you in whatever you choose. My

heart and thoughts are with you.

Take care,

ps - If I didn't come across clearly before, I was thinking that if you contact

a local hospice, they may have an alternative to either them or you that's

available. She may be too 'well' to be in hospice yet, but too ill to be in your

home. Another thought is whether or not you want her to die in your home. Not

to get too personal, but I believe it merits thinking through.

>

> Is this faulty thinking?

> What if nada moves in and like Annie and suggested, I have both hospice

and a care-taker come almost every day. They do all the nursing stuff. I don't

mind cooking for nada or cleaning her room since I would be doing that anyway.

Maybe nada will be in better spirits being around her granddaughter. That seems

to put her in a better frame of mind when I visit.

> Is this a pipe dream? Maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? I have fallen in this trap

of thinking before. It's just that yesterday I had a little softening of my

heart for nada. I don't want her to die alone. She's incredibly scared. I don't

think she has longer than 6 months, but who knows. Could I put up with it for

that long? It's not very long in reality, but it could feel like 30 years with

nada.

[Guest guest]

If this person wasn't your mother, you might wonder why she wasn't in jail

or in a mental hospital. Here is an abridged story that I read on another

list, where she attributed it to Aesop:

Once there was a scorpian, who had received news of his mothers illness. He

needed to make the long journey to see her, but a river stood in his way,

and as you know, scopians cannot swim. He spotted a frog nearby and hoped to

hitch a ride on the frogs back. The frog, when approached by the scorpian,

quickly backed away, saying " Stay away! I know who you are and what you do " .

The scorpian, begged the frog for a ride, promising not to sting him, " You

see, I need to see my ailing mother, and without your help, I would not be

able to help her, why would I sting you, since surely we both would drown

and die? " . The nice frog, taking pity on the scorpian thought this made

sense, and agreed to give the scorpian a ride. About half way across the

river, the frog felt a searing pain in his side. He immediately knew what

had happened and said to the scorpian in wonderment, as they both went to

their mutual death, " but why did you sting me? " The

scorpian pondered for a moment and answered. " I don't know, I guess that's

just what I do " .

But when I Googled it, I found this in Wikipedia:

" The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable of unknown author, though often

mis-attributed to Aesop.[1] The story is about a scorpion asking a frog to

carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung, but the

scorpion reassures him that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and

the scorpion would drown as well. The frog then agrees; nevertheless, in

mid-river, the scorpion stings him, dooming the two of them. When asked why,

the scorpion explains, " I'm a scorpion; it's my nature. "

Common variations include a turtle, fox, or farmer in place of the frog, or

a snake in place of the scorpion.

It is often quoted to illustrate the purportedly insuppressible nature of

one's self at its base level. "

Keep this in mind when you make your decision. Also, for the sake of your

child, who is very young, I would think very hard about what it will do to

her having at the very least, a super stressed and unhappy mommy. When they

are so young, their whole being and who they think they are is reflected in

their mother's face. This is very critical. I had a decision to make when

nada was dying too and I chose to be with the living who were enriched and

happy with my presence. Nada was full bore, sick and then and always Cluster

B. Cluster B. Cluster B. A scorpion. Protect your family at all costs.

Flowers in Oz

----- Original Message -----

Mozz -

Sigh... It's a pipe dream. It's sweet, but as you say, " faulty " thinking.

You want her to turn into the nice mom you wanted, as she lives her last

days. You feel that having that extra help will make her satisfied, and

that having her granddaughter will make her behave.

Not gonna happen.

Leopards do not change their spots just because they're old and sick. In

fact, being ill makes them feel even more waif-like, even better able to

justify dishing out the abuse. And since they can't yell at the doctor,

can't yell at the hospice worker, guess who's going to get the brunt of the

vitriol?

-

> >

> > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

> > talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say

> > yes. I know this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and

> > although I pretty much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days

> > alone except for some hired help. I am hoping to get more info today

> > because Hospice is paying her a visit. I plan on getting the nurse's

> > name from nada and talking to them directly so I can get the " real "

> > information.

> > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

> > enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know

> > that. I'm not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada

> > anything, but I do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel

> > pretty bad about it later. I can just see her rotting away in the house

> > all by herself. I feel sorry for her because she's so pathetic. After I

> > talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and see how much they cover

> > for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her caretaker. I refuse.

> >

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Flowers: Another version of this cautionary tale is The Snake and The Maiden -

the snake needs to be carried across the river, the maiden fears him but agrees

out of sympathy, he bites her, and when she asks why he'd do that (when they are

both going to drown) - he replies, " You knew what I was when you picked me up. "

I always kept that line in mind when I was young and single, and trying to

distinguish the good guys from the " snakes " ! (LOL - ah, those were the days...)

> > >

>

> > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

> > > talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say

> > > yes. I know this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and

> > > although I pretty much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days

> > > alone except for some hired help. I am hoping to get more info today

> > > because Hospice is paying her a visit. I plan on getting the nurse's

> > > name from nada and talking to them directly so I can get the " real "

> > > information.

> > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

> > > enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know

> > > that. I'm not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada

> > > anything, but I do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel

> > > pretty bad about it later. I can just see her rotting away in the house

> > > all by herself. I feel sorry for her because she's so pathetic. After I

> > > talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and see how much they cover

> > > for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her caretaker. I refuse.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

We all have times that we think we can live under the same roof with our nadas.

My husband and I recently looked at houses for sale. We saw a nice, big one

(expensive) and I said... " maybe, my mother could live with us and we could

afford it.. " . He looked at me funny but didn't respond. When we got to the car,

I said " sometimes I have these fantasy ideas...when I mention the idea of my

nada living with us, it is temporary insanity...just ignore it. " We both got a

laugh. Bottom line: Don't do it!!!

>

> couldn't the nursing stuff all be done at nadas house with you coming to

> cook/clean ?? and have hospice/some type of help stay with her 24/7 if need

> be ?? I certainly wouldn't want my nada to move in with me under any

> circumstance...I know how it would be...I was at nadas house during her

> cancer treatments several years ago, and she was still a very nasty person

> towards me...when my hose had bladder cancer, the U of I too a biopsy, and

> said the horse had 6 weeks tops...she lived 1 year and 2 months!!

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Is this faulty thinking?

> What if nada moves in and like Annie and suggested, I have both

> hospice and a care-taker come almost every day. They do all the nursing

> stuff. I don't mind cooking for nada or cleaning her room since I would be

> doing that anyway. Maybe nada will be in better spirits being around her

> granddaughter. That seems to put her in a better frame of mind when I visit.

> Is this a pipe dream? Maybe it wouldn't be so bad?? I have fallen in this

> trap of thinking before. It's just that yesterday I had a little softening

> of my heart for nada. I don't want her to die alone. She's incredibly

> scared. I don't think she has longer than 6 months, but who knows. Could I

> put up with it for that long? It's not very long in reality, but it could

> feel like 30 years with nada.

>

[Guest guest]

I would agree with others that you are falling into faulty thinking. Unless

you have a caregiver in your house 24/7 the time will come, count on it, when

you will have bathe her, empty her bedpans - can you face that? Think through

what you'd really have to do with her in your house, what it would be like,

especially if she lives longer than estimated as well - how your body feels as

you think about it will tell you. That's a test I use sometimes to see my true

feelings when the ideas of what I " should " do are so strong. That feeling like

a black hole has begun to eat up my insides tells me it's a bad idea.

You've got the option to set up some type of hospice arrangment so it'll be

ready when the time comes and until that time let her stay in her city in her

home with just part-time caregivers supporting her. There's more than one way

to go about this...explore all your options. What you would have to give to

meet her expectations, if even possible, would require sacrificing so much of

your self and your ability to be fully present for you child and your husband -

it just seems no win.

In my own struggle with what to do with my nada as her health fails a few things

guide me. One is I have to be able to live with myself, my decisions, after

she's gone. The other is that I have to look at what I can realisticly do -

not what she *wants*, not what others would approve of, but what I have the

capacity to do without destroying myself and my life.

It's a hard situation - wishing you strength and wisdom.

> >

> > I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her living

trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but my T

said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off big

time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't take

it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such hostility

that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is. Talking to her

is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I offer a simple

solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet she'll make one

up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her crying. The crying!

Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> > She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I didn't

ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> > " To my daughter,

> > Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and pride

I have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me in

your heart answering. Mommy "

> > Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading

that.

> > I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try she

ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about her

she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a problem.

I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her, letters she has

written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers- I mean why

would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket? Anyway I

flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in time I

feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me to lay

down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me she won't

let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't help it. It's

like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I can get away

from her.

> > This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> > I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just

waiting for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her.

I practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she

could again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not

move in with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't

know if she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm

asking her to move in with me again.

> > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm

not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I

do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I

can just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

;

(Love your nickname, by the way!)

Oh wow, that's great, I love the line " You knew what I was when you picked

me up. " Those two stories together really make a very powerful point. It

also reminds me of the NFL coach, who, after his team lost to another, said,

" They were who we thought they were " or something like that.

My new slogans:

Never share the same roof as nada.

Nada doesn't live here.

Nada nada.

This is a no nada zone.

Nada, you've used up your minutes.

If I never live with you again, I will recover about two months after I'm

dead.

I lived with you for my first 18 years and that's enough.

Flowers in Oz

----- Original Message -----

Flowers: Another version of this cautionary tale is The Snake and The

Maiden - the snake needs to be carried across the river, the maiden fears

him but agrees out of sympathy, he bites her, and when she asks why he'd do

that (when they are both going to drown) - he replies, " You knew what I was

when you picked me up. "

I always kept that line in mind when I was young and single, and trying to

distinguish the good guys from the " snakes " ! (LOL - ah, those were the

days...)

>

> >

>

> But when I Googled it, I found this in Wikipedia:

> " The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable of unknown author, though often

> mis-attributed to Aesop.[1] The story is about a scorpion asking a frog to

> carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung, but the

> scorpion reassures him that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and

> the scorpion would drown as well. The frog then agrees; nevertheless, in

> mid-river, the scorpion stings him, dooming the two of them. When asked

> why,

> the scorpion explains, " I'm a scorpion; it's my nature. "

>

> Common variations include a turtle, fox, or farmer in place of the frog,

> or

> a snake in place of the scorpion.

>

> It is often quoted to illustrate the purportedly insuppressible nature of

> one's self at its base level. "

>

>

[Guest guest]

Flowers - Why, thank you - and as to the slogans, don't forget the essential,

" Never ride with Nada, and NEVER let your car get blocked in Nada's driveway! "

-

> >

> > >

> >

> > But when I Googled it, I found this in Wikipedia:

> > " The Scorpion and the Frog is a fable of unknown author, though often

> > mis-attributed to Aesop.[1] The story is about a scorpion asking a frog to

> > carry him across a river. The frog is afraid of being stung, but the

> > scorpion reassures him that if it stung the frog, the frog would sink and

> > the scorpion would drown as well. The frog then agrees; nevertheless, in

> > mid-river, the scorpion stings him, dooming the two of them. When asked

> > why,

> > the scorpion explains, " I'm a scorpion; it's my nature. "

> >

> > Common variations include a turtle, fox, or farmer in place of the frog,

> > or

> > a snake in place of the scorpion.

> >

> > It is often quoted to illustrate the purportedly insuppressible nature of

> > one's self at its base level. "

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

LOL, wow, yeah, never ride with nada, how true, " weaponizing the car " is a

phrase (from a past thread) I'll never forget. Ha ha ha, where else but here

would such a phrase be born.

Okay, more slogans KOs!

Flowers in Oz

----- Original Message -----

Flowers - Why, thank you - and as to the slogans, don't forget the

essential, " Never ride with Nada, and NEVER let your car get blocked in

Nada's driveway! " -

>

>

> My new slogans:

>

> Never share the same roof as nada.

> Nada doesn't live here.

> Nada nada.

> This is a no nada zone.

> Nada, you've used up your minutes.

> If I never live with you again, I will recover about two months after I'm

> dead.

> I lived with you for my first 18 years and that's enough.

>

> Flowers in Oz

>

[Guest guest]

I think I was the one who wrote " weaponizing the car " ... Nada is famous for " car

conversations " ... and if they don't go her way, she'll run off the road and

scare the #$%@#$% out of you just to make her point then play " waif " as if the

car suddenly developed a persona and DID IT TO HER.

I could spend hours talking about these 'trips'... but why bother? lol

LYnnette

> >

> >

> > My new slogans:

> >

> > Never share the same roof as nada.

> > Nada doesn't live here.

> > Nada nada.

> > This is a no nada zone.

> > Nada, you've used up your minutes.

> > If I never live with you again, I will recover about two months after I'm

> > dead.

> > I lived with you for my first 18 years and that's enough.

> >

> > Flowers in Oz

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" And she said I didn't spend enough time just sitting with her. She said I was

cold and callous. She said the " stress " of living with us was what caused her

cancer. "

That's the kind of crap my nada says now. Your email sent a chill up my spine

because you are right- I can just see nada acting that way. I am so stressed

about this- I am wound up like a spring.

I had another mind-numbing and infuriating conversation with nada yesterday. I

told her that I would have to move twice if she moved in- once to a house we can

all fit into, and then out of it when she dies because we can't afford the rent.

She said that wouldn't be an issue b/c she's leaving me money. I told her that

she had told me she cut me out, which were her EXACT WORDS. She even said,

" Don't expect a thing from me. " She flew into a rage stating how could I accuse

her of saying that, she said no such thing, she would never do that I am her

child, why would I upset her by saying that, blah blah blah. I mean she was

sobbing and denying up and down what she said. Turning it around on me like I

was the one who said something cruel. I am so sick of her turning stuff around

on me. Anyway, I actually believe that she truly thinks she never said that

because her usual M.O. is to change the subject or hang up when I confront her.

I mean how sick is it that she believes her own lie? I got sucked into another

talking in circles to a brick wall conversation. When I hung up I was so mad and

frustrated.

> > >

> > > I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her

living trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but

my T said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off

big time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't

take it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such

hostility that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is.

Talking to her is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I

offer a simple solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet

she'll make one up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her

crying. The crying! Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> > > She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I

didn't ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> > > " To my daughter,

> > > Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and

pride I have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me

in your heart answering. Mommy "

> > > Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading

that.

> > > I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try she

ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about her

she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a problem.

I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her, letters she has

written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers- I mean why

would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket? Anyway I

flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in time I

feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me to lay

down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me she won't

let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't help it. It's

like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I can get away

from her.

> > > This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> > > I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just

waiting for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her.

I practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she

could again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not

move in with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't

know if she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm

asking her to move in with me again.

> > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm

not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I

do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I

can just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I know you are right, but how am I going to face the onslaught I am going to get

from other people, esp. nada about this? I know I sound weak saying that, but I

am really worried about this. Nobody (other than the people on this site, my T

and my husband) understands! I feel like I am backed into a corner and trying to

fight my way out. Nada needs me so much I am suffocating. If she tells me one

more time she needs me to be encouraging or nurturing or loving and nice to her

I just might snap. No person should depend on their kid for their entire

emotional support. It's just not fair, and I am sick of the burden. Her

neediness disgusts me. It's so bad that when I look in the mirror and see some

of her features in my face it makes me sick. The worst part is that she thinks

she is the best mother that ever lived and can not see even one tiny fault.

She's not sick enough to be put in a facility, but she's not well enough to live

alone. What am I going to do? Her insurance pays for 100 home visits a year-

that's only 3 months. Her insurance does not cover a skilled nursing facility. I

am not sure if she has medicare- they might. I have to find out. I am almost in

a panic about this. I just feel so tense.

> > >

>

> > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

> > > talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say

> > > yes. I know this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and

> > > although I pretty much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days

> > > alone except for some hired help. I am hoping to get more info today

> > > because Hospice is paying her a visit. I plan on getting the nurse's

> > > name from nada and talking to them directly so I can get the " real "

> > > information.

> > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

> > > enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know

> > > that. I'm not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada

> > > anything, but I do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel

> > > pretty bad about it later. I can just see her rotting away in the house

> > > all by herself. I feel sorry for her because she's so pathetic. After I

> > > talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and see how much they cover

> > > for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her caretaker. I refuse.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Its a no-win situation. Nada says something hateful (or weird, confusing or

illogical.) You challenge her, telling her that what she said hurt your

feelings (or contradicts something she said earlier, etc.) Nada denies having

said such a thing at all and accuses *you* of lying, twisting her words, being

hateful and vicious, etc.

You can't have a rational conversation with someone who is irrational, its just

not possible. If the person you're having a conversation with will not even

admit that they said XYZ, then, you're basically checkmated. All the rules are

thrown out the window.

There is no basis on which to have a conversation.

Its the very definition of mental illness, and yes, it does make you feel like

banging your head against a wall.

(I know; my nada's weapons of choice are denial and blame also.)

My advice would be to do what works best *for you and your husband and your

child* and just let nada deal with it. You already know that your nada will not

be happy with *any* care-giving arrangement and will blame you for her

unhappiness under any and all circumstances.

Checkmate.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > I went to the wolf's den (nada's house) this weekend to drop off her

living trust and get some of my things. I was going to get all of my things but

my T said not to do that unless I am going NC because that would set nada off

big time. It was an OK weekend because every time she tried to bait me I didn't

take it- it was hard. At one point I caught her staring at me with such

hostility that it took everything I had not to ask her what her problem is.

Talking to her is so frustrating because for every " problem " she presents I

offer a simple solution that she won't take. If there's isn't a problem you bet

she'll make one up. I am so sick of her feeling victimized, so sick of her

crying. The crying! Non stop crying! Every little thing is the end of the world.

> > > > She made a scrapbook about herself and gave it to me this weekend. I

didn't ask her to do this. On the 1st page it says,

> > > > " To my daughter,

> > > > Words are easy. Only the heart can convey the love, joy, happiness and

pride I have for you. You will always be able to talk to me, Honey. Just feel me

in your heart answering. Mommy "

> > > > Excuse my language but WTF???? I felt sick and fuming mad after reading

that.

> > > > I have never been able to talk to her about anything! Every time I try

she ignores me, gets defensive or hangs up on me. Even if it's not even about

her she acts like I am accusing her of some shortcoming because *I* have a

problem. I flipped through that scrapbook which contains pictures of her,

letters she has written, a ticket for running a red light, report cards of hers-

I mean why would I want that stuff? The pictures I can understand but a ticket?

Anyway I flipped through that and felt nothing but ambivalence. At this point in

time I feel no love towards her whatsoever. When I am at her house she wants me

to lay down with her and read to her and I can barely do it. When she hugs me

she won't let go until I detach myself. When she hugs me I go stiff- I can't

help it. It's like my body is revolted by her touch. I cringe inwardly until I

can get away from her.

> > > > This bothers me, but I can't help it.

> > > > I KNOW she's going to eventually ask me if she can move in. I am just

waiting for it. Someone told me she said she wants to, but wants me to ask her.

I practically BEGGED her to a few months ago. Then, recently I told her she

could again and she reacted by cutting me out of her will because I will not

move in with her. Shes now says she never said that, which is total BS. I don't

know if she believes her own lie or is outright lying. Anyway there's no way I'm

asking her to move in with me again.

> > > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say yes. I know

this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and although I pretty

much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days alone except for some

hired help. I am hoping to get more info today because Hospice is paying her a

visit. I plan on getting the nurse's name from nada and talking to them directly

so I can get the " real " information.

> > > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know that. I'm

not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada anything, but I

do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel pretty bad about it later. I

can just see her rotting away in the house all by herself. I feel sorry for her

because she's so pathetic. After I talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and

see how much they cover for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her

caretaker. I refuse.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I've gone through investigating this stuff in the last few years, so for what

it's worth... You are most likely going to go through a lot of her savings on

care costs - it's important to bite that bullet early. That means her cash

savings, then a reverse mortgage on her house, after all her assets are gone the

nursing home she's in will switch her over to Medicaid. It's important to get

her into a good nursing home that will support the switch to Medicaid when the

time comes. This is how it goes down financially with end of life care for

many people in this country unfortunately leaving the descendents with no

inheritance at all. Still going about it that way she could pay out of pocket

to stay in her home as long as possible with you doing visits to support her, in

person and by phone. Then if she gets worse off to the nursing home she goes.

That's just one scenario - please know I'm not saying this is what you should

do, just painting out one option. It doesn't answer the gut wrenching part of

how to deal with the backlash you'll get if you did this. I'm always amazed at

the strength of so many on this board to take the steps that will destroy the

last bit of normal relationship they've got. Usually it seems there's not much

to lose at that point, but maybe you feel you do have a lot to lose still?

What would your nada do if you refused to care for her in house? What do you

believe the imapact on you would be?

Hugs,

J

> > > >

> >

> > > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

> > > > talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say

> > > > yes. I know this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and

> > > > although I pretty much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days

> > > > alone except for some hired help. I am hoping to get more info today

> > > > because Hospice is paying her a visit. I plan on getting the nurse's

> > > > name from nada and talking to them directly so I can get the " real "

> > > > information.

> > > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

> > > > enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know

> > > > that. I'm not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada

> > > > anything, but I do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel

> > > > pretty bad about it later. I can just see her rotting away in the house

> > > > all by herself. I feel sorry for her because she's so pathetic. After I

> > > > talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and see how much they cover

> > > > for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her caretaker. I refuse.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> > @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> > THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> > () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> > and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Mozz,I'm really sorry you're in such a tight spot with your nada.It sounds

incredibly stress making.It's that much harder to make decisions when someone

(esp a parent) is battering you with their neediness,not to mention having

mental illness in the mix that thwarts any real communication.

I don't know what state you live and what your state's medicare protocol

is.Is your nada above the age of 65? I believe that is the age from which

medicare will cover the expense of skilled nursing home care if the person's

insurance doesn't cover it--something that happens more often than people

realize until they actually need care.Having said that,if you haven't done so

already,I would suggest contacting your county's relevant office of senior

services to see if they can provide you with a list of facilities that accept

medicare coverage for those who are eligible and to also inquire about any

facilities that offer terminal hospice care for those who may not qualify for

full medicare coverage because some do.You will need to have nada placed on a

waiting list or have her on record as having applied for a bed but this doesn't

oblige you to actually place her there if you choose not to--what that does is

ensure that her case is in the facility's system so that when the time comes you

don't have to start from scratch and wait for a place to take her.I'd recommend

placing her on the waiting lists of several facilities.

If her insurance does cover three months of in home care that gives you

time to make decisions.

Does anyone have any kind of living will authority over nada's medical

care? As in a notarized document that you have yourself in your possesion,not a

copy? That authorizes decisions to be made on her behalf when she is unable to

do so,that she signed?

I think that you need to consult with an elder law attorney if you

haven't done so already.It's clear that your nada is not capable of making

reasonable and responsible choices about her own care.An attorney could guide

you through what would need to be done to have her declared indigent,which would

involve selling all of her assets,and would immediately qualify her (once the

process is complete) for an emergency (and if necessary longer term rather than

acute care) placement in practically any skilled care facility.The other route

would be to have her declared mentally incompetent,as I'm sure you know.I'd bet

that any of the nurses or home health aides that come into her home will see for

themselves that she is indeed imcompetent.An attorney (read: an objective third

party who won't fight with you or mess with your head) could be appointed

guardian of her estate and attend to the details of how her assets could be best

used (or liquidated and transferred elsewhere out of her name) to pay for her

care.You would probably have to have her declared incompetent before she can be

declared indigent unless your state has some power of attorney law that can be

passed to the nearest living relative (you) in the absence of the individual

still having a living spouse,but an attorney could tell you.Are you mentioned as

the executor of her will in any legal document and do you have a copy?

You still have time to put in place some alternatives to having her live

with you.Maybe finding out more about what your options are will help you to

make a decision.

Take care,

> > > >

> >

> > > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have been

> > > > talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say

> > > > yes. I know this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and

> > > > although I pretty much hate her I don't want her to spend her final days

> > > > alone except for some hired help. I am hoping to get more info today

> > > > because Hospice is paying her a visit. I plan on getting the nurse's

> > > > name from nada and talking to them directly so I can get the " real "

> > > > information.

> > > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't have

> > > > enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know

> > > > that. I'm not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe nada

> > > > anything, but I do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel

> > > > pretty bad about it later. I can just see her rotting away in the house

> > > > all by herself. I feel sorry for her because she's so pathetic. After I

> > > > talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and see how much they cover

> > > > for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her caretaker. I refuse.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> > @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> > THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> > () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> > and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

You tell that onslaught that you have a family that needs you and you can't

do it, period. You don't need to defend yourself beyond that. You and your

husband decided you couldn't do it - and if they continue, tell them you

schedule time to defend yourself on Saturday nights at 10:30 and they can

call you then. Then turn off the phone. You have to consider your children.

Your nada is really a terrorist digging in for the last big bomb blast of

her life.

Think about it, your husband, T and this site's members understand. No one

else could unless they were in this situation. You can't sacrifice your

child because of what other people are thinking or might think. You also

have PTSD and even before she's even in your home you're being taken apart

and weakened beyone the pale. You should not to be expected to do this, nada

is not your child. And you owe her nothing. You have living, loving, needy

family who critically need you. Don't let nada take you away from them. What

kind of mother was she to you as a child? (No need to answer, we all know.)

I rest my case.

Flowers in Oz

Re: Back from hades

I know you are right, but how am I going to face the onslaught I am going to

get from other people, esp. nada about this? I know I sound weak saying

that, but I am really worried about this. Nobody (other than the people on

this site, my T and my husband) understands! I feel like I am backed into a

corner and trying to fight my way out. Nada needs me so much I am

suffocating. If she tells me one more time she needs me to be encouraging or

nurturing or loving and nice to her I just might snap. No person should

depend on their kid for their entire emotional support. It's just not fair,

and I am sick of the burden. Her neediness disgusts me. It's so bad that

when I look in the mirror and see some of her features in my face it makes

me sick. The worst part is that she thinks she is the best mother that ever

lived and can not see even one tiny fault.

She's not sick enough to be put in a facility, but she's not well enough to

live alone. What am I going to do? Her insurance pays for 100 home visits a

year- that's only 3 months. Her insurance does not cover a skilled nursing

facility. I am not sure if she has medicare- they might. I have to find out.

I am almost in a panic about this. I just feel so tense.

[Guest guest]

Hi Flowers,

Thank you for the advice- much appreciated. I don't need to defend myself, you

are right. I need to get over feeling like I need to. I am curious about you

mentioning PTSD. Do you think I have that? I was taught that PTSD involved

flashbacks, which I don't have. But I wanted to ask why you mentioned that in

case I am missing something...

>

>

>

> You tell that onslaught that you have a family that needs you and you can't

> do it, period. You don't need to defend yourself beyond that. You and your

> husband decided you couldn't do it - and if they continue, tell them you

> schedule time to defend yourself on Saturday nights at 10:30 and they can

> call you then. Then turn off the phone. You have to consider your children.

> Your nada is really a terrorist digging in for the last big bomb blast of

> her life.

>

> Think about it, your husband, T and this site's members understand. No one

> else could unless they were in this situation. You can't sacrifice your

> child because of what other people are thinking or might think. You also

> have PTSD and even before she's even in your home you're being taken apart

> and weakened beyone the pale. You should not to be expected to do this, nada

> is not your child. And you owe her nothing. You have living, loving, needy

> family who critically need you. Don't let nada take you away from them. What

> kind of mother was she to you as a child? (No need to answer, we all know.)

> I rest my case.

>

> Flowers in Oz

>

>

> Re: Back from hades

>

>

> I know you are right, but how am I going to face the onslaught I am going to

> get from other people, esp. nada about this? I know I sound weak saying

> that, but I am really worried about this. Nobody (other than the people on

> this site, my T and my husband) understands! I feel like I am backed into a

> corner and trying to fight my way out. Nada needs me so much I am

> suffocating. If she tells me one more time she needs me to be encouraging or

> nurturing or loving and nice to her I just might snap. No person should

> depend on their kid for their entire emotional support. It's just not fair,

> and I am sick of the burden. Her neediness disgusts me. It's so bad that

> when I look in the mirror and see some of her features in my face it makes

> me sick. The worst part is that she thinks she is the best mother that ever

> lived and can not see even one tiny fault.

> She's not sick enough to be put in a facility, but she's not well enough to

> live alone. What am I going to do? Her insurance pays for 100 home visits a

> year- that's only 3 months. Her insurance does not cover a skilled nursing

> facility. I am not sure if she has medicare- they might. I have to find out.

> I am almost in a panic about this. I just feel so tense.

>

[Guest guest]

One of the things I am concerned about too is nada's neighbors. They have been

taking my mom to her appointments and helping out. If I don't let nada move in

they will continue to do this and they are both elderly. I know it's not my

problem, but I feel bad for them taking on some of nada's burden. She doesn't

make it easy on them either. They are both really nice ladies. Should I not even

worry about them? They are grown women and if it's too much for them let it be

up to them to stop helping?

I feel like once nada is gone I will have basically no contact with her friends

so I guess it's not a big deal if they think poorly of me. I guess I really

don't have much to lose.

> > > > >

> > >

> > > > > But I am pretty sure the request coming. Ugh. My husband and I have

been

> > > > > talking about this nonstop, and we both feel like we'll probably say

> > > > > yes. I know this is crazy. I really feel like she can not be alone and

> > > > > although I pretty much hate her I don't want her to spend her final

days

> > > > > alone except for some hired help. I am hoping to get more info today

> > > > > because Hospice is paying her a visit. I plan on getting the nurse's

> > > > > name from nada and talking to them directly so I can get the " real "

> > > > > information.

> > > > > My worst fear is that she will suck so much energy from me I won't

have

> > > > > enough for my daughter. I must choose my baby 1st and foremost, I know

> > > > > that. I'm not sure how this is going to go down. I know I don't owe

nada

> > > > > anything, but I do honestly feel like if I tell her no I will feel

> > > > > pretty bad about it later. I can just see her rotting away in the

house

> > > > > all by herself. I feel sorry for her because she's so pathetic. After

I

> > > > > talk to Hospice I will call her insurance and see how much they cover

> > > > > for in-home care. Either way I REFUSE to be her caretaker. I refuse.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> > > @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> > > THE GROUP.

> > >

> > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> > > () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline

> > > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you

can

> > > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > >

> > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> > > and the SWOE Workbook.