Re: NC question

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie,

Thank you for your post. I am glad to read this. Some of me always wondered why

I needed to set up elaborate boundaries and constantly reinforce them for a

better relationship.

If I met my Nada in a crowded Times Square, she would be the last person I'd

talk to.

-Joy

> > >

> > > I am wondering for those of you who decided to go NC; how did you do it? I

wrote a letter.

> > >

> > > I basically wrote that I wouldn't be around. However, part of me feels I

should be around in an emergency (like death or serious illness). My Nada is 49,

so it may be awhile before something like this happens.

> > >

> > > However; being around in case of an emergency may be difficult because I

live farther than other people, and I would have to have either one of my

sisters, or my uncle email be about it since I changed my phone number.

> > >

> > > -Joy

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Emotional rape is exactly what it is. 100%. Well said. Exactly how I feel. I

also have felt guilty when people " in the community " ask me how my nada/fada

are etc. I used to go to other people's houses to eat, rather than eat in my own

house. I even arragned for my sibligns to go out with me.

It's terrible to feel this guilt, which I do. I wish I didn't. And then I feel

so sad because I wish I WISH that it could be normal. But no one understands.

And then they think that YOU " RE crazy because nada /fada are so PRESENTABLE and

look so normal. It's really crazy making. It's very subtle: to mess with the

kids head and then seem to be so in control etc around other people.

Nasty. Also my nada always talks about other poeple in the family to me. I feel

it's to prove she has relationships with everyone. When she visits us she shows

us pictures of everyone else, and takes pictures of our kids. But she doesn't

actually play with them. she just takes pictures of them. It is so pathetic. She

is so plastic and fake. one therapist said to me she's like in a bubble. I swear

I cannot live with myself if I am like her. I will be WITH  my kids please G-d.

 present. It's so hard.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 11:02:23 AM

Subject: Re: NC question

In my opinion, you (we) don't owe anyone an explanation about whether you are or

are not in contact with your nada (or other abusive foo.) Its not anyone else's

business. When my acquaintances, work associates or friends (who are not close

friends) ask me how my mother is, I just say, " She's fine, thanks. "

I think that us survivors of mentally ill parents feel *misplaced* guilt for not

being emotionally close to or totally cutting off contact with the people who

mistreated us as children and who continue to mistreat us as adults.

But, think of it this way and maybe you won't feel as conflicted: I would not

expect the adult child of a father who repeatedly molested and raped her to stay

in contact with her father, particularly if he denied it, called her a liar and

crazy, never apologized, never asked for forgiveness, and continued to make

sexual overtures to her into her adulthood! That would be incomprehensible to

expect an adult daughter to subject herself to contact with the " father " who

behaved like that!

Well, in a way, I feel " emotionally raped " by my nada. My nada wanted total

enmeshment with me; she treated me like my mind and body and soul were her

property and were hers to use and command, and I let her have me far into my

adulthood because I wanted her love (Stockholm syndrome.)

I've come to believe that I need complete no-contact with my nada because its

easy for me to be lured back in by her, and that's not good for me at all.

So, OK, that makes me weak. So its *easier* to go no contact than to have

limited contact and set up the elaborate boundaries that need constant

reinforcement. OK, so I'm weak and lazy; but I resist feeling guilty. In fact,

I'll be damned if I let myself feel guilty or let other people make me feel

guilty. I refuse.

I have the right to defend myself from my " emotional rapist. "

-Annie

> >

> > I am wondering for those of you who decided to go NC; how did you do it? I

wrote a letter.

> >

> > I basically wrote that I wouldn't be around. However, part of me feels I

should be around in an emergency (like death or serious illness). My Nada is 49,

so it may be awhile before something like this happens.

> >

> > However; being around in case of an emergency may be difficult because I

live farther than other people, and I would have to have either one of my

sisters, or my uncle email be about it since I changed my phone number.

> >

> > -Joy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joy, for me and you and I bet all of us here actually - our accomplishments

were made *in spite of* our nadas. It's possible that there were some genetic

gifts like intelligence or height, but the damage psychologically from them is

something we've had to heal and work to overcome, maybe for a lifetime.

Again...I don't know if explaining all that will be fruitful to a person who

doesn't want to understand or is afraid to understand. I guess it all depends

how important it is to you that this person understand. I think I missed the

thread about trouble with your priest who was advising you but saw some

reference to it...but I'll say I'm not surprised. I've had a hard time finding

therapists, trained therapists, who are able to fully get it. For some reason,

the experience of a KO requires a person with special training and insight.

> > > >

> > > > I am wondering for those of you who decided to go NC; how did you do it?

I wrote a letter.

> > > >

> > > > I basically wrote that I wouldn't be around. However, part of me feels I

should be around in an emergency (like death or serious illness). My Nada is 49,

so it may be awhile before something like this happens.

> > > >

> > > > However; being around in case of an emergency may be difficult because I

live farther than other people, and I would have to have either one of my

sisters, or my uncle email be about it since I changed my phone number.

> > > >

> > > > -Joy

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jackie, you obviously love a (gasp!) *horse* more than you (sniff, sniff) love

your (sniff) *OWN MOTHER*. At least, that's what my nada would say, and HAS

said, if you substitute " horse " for " cat " . It is crazy, but there ARE different

rules for different kids!

-Deanna

>

> yeah, thats a different kind of fake crying....my nada uses it as a

> manipulation tool... " cry and they'll give me what I want " .... " oh, boo hoo

> hoo, you wont come for Christmas, and this may be my LAST Christmas...you

> almost LOST me 2 months ago..boo hoo hoo I just want my FAMILY around me "

> didn't work, so now she tries a different tactic, anger...I'm a terrible

> daughter because I didn't want to leave my horses in the dead of winter

> while we were having ice storms every few days to travel 400+ miles, and

> make someone else travel the roads to my house 2X a day to look after the

> horses....and lord help us if the power went out and the horse sitter was

> due out for 12 hours !! the horses water would freeze up and they'd be

> without....but nada thinks she should be more important...those animals are

> my responsibility. and this is only directed at me...not at my 2 sisters or

> 1 brother...

>

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

I was just reading about nada " apologies " , if we can even call them that! My

nada only " apologize " if I was something like " I'm sorry you get upset so

easily " or " I'm sorry that you will never see the truth " ...To this day, if I

hear someone giving that kind of passive agressive apology, I cringe. Unless its

to me, then I call them on it. ~Kim

> >

> > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing as a

" get out of jail free " card.

> >

> > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a raging

tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> >

> > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next week, or

whenever.

> >

> > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough, afterward

she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if she never

said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an apology:

bpd-universe logic.)

> >

> > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic; she's

learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our outrage. How

can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm sorry, " she

blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must believe it makes

her perfect again.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

> Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is twisted

beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong when I was

12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations). Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

>

> It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along the

lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize that

it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive]

father/husband/grandfather/[pick-a-scapegoat] was/is terrorizing me and putting

me and you in that situation. "

>

> Arianna

>

[Guest guest]

Or, " I'm sorry, but... "

> > >

> > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing as a

" get out of jail free " card.

> > >

> > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a raging

tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > >

> > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next week,

or whenever.

> > >

> > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > >

> > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic; she's

learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our outrage. How

can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm sorry, " she

blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must believe it makes

her perfect again.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

> > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations). Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> >

> > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along the

lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize that

it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive]

father/husband/grandfather/[pick-a-scapegoat] was/is terrorizing me and putting

me and you in that situation. "

> >

> > Arianna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I see what you mean. Yes, its hard to find qualified people who " get it " . I'm so

grateful this board gets it. I think without it, I'd break at some point.

Yes, its very hard for people to believe my Nada was " that bad " since I am so

" normal " . I heard that the intelligence of a child can help combat and deal with

the abuse, as can emotional endurance. Some children are more emotionally

resistant than others.

I'm starting to not care so much about what the priest will think about my

decision. I feel so free and happy with my decision of NC. I feel like the sky's

the limit; and everything is so peaceful that it is remarkable. I feel like for

the first time, life is such an adventure. The lure of this is almost enough to

combat the anxiety of the priest being disappointed with my decision. It seems

to get better each day.

It will still be unfortunate/sad if the priest is affronted; esp. because he

wants to help.

But if us KOs had a parent with BPD, I think we can handle anything even if it

hurts badly.

-Joy

> > > > >

> > > > > I am wondering for those of you who decided to go NC; how did you do

it? I wrote a letter.

> > > > >

> > > > > I basically wrote that I wouldn't be around. However, part of me feels

I should be around in an emergency (like death or serious illness). My Nada is

49, so it may be awhile before something like this happens.

> > > > >

> > > > > However; being around in case of an emergency may be difficult because

I live farther than other people, and I would have to have either one of my

sisters, or my uncle email be about it since I changed my phone number.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Joy

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kim:

I've experienced the same thing. I never get an apology; and if I do, Nada tells

me she is sorry I got so upset. Same as yours! Or...(when I was younger and not

NC) I would naively trust her with my feelings since she was my *mother* and

tell her she hurt my feelings. She would then say: " Well, then you shouldn't

have done a/b/c. " She would use small, insignificant things I had done in the

past or said also for an excuse to yell at me. That way, it would be all my

fault.

But, if I brought up the past; I would be punished.

-Joy

> > >

> > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing as a

" get out of jail free " card.

> > >

> > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a raging

tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > >

> > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next week,

or whenever.

> > >

> > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > >

> > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic; she's

learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our outrage. How

can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm sorry, " she

blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must believe it makes

her perfect again.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

> > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations). Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> >

> > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along the

lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize that

it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive]

father/husband/grandfather/[pick-a-scapegoat] was/is terrorizing me and putting

me and you in that situation. "

> >

> > Arianna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joy - I'm still the " emergency contact " and still the executor for Nada's

estate. I guess that's not complete NC, but I only see her about once a year,

and only talk to her for short times - it's extremely low LC. Her home health

aides know that I'm the one to contact if there's a real emergency, and she's

not just blowing smoke to get attention. -

>

> I am wondering for those of you who decided to go NC; how did you do it? I

wrote a letter.

>

> I basically wrote that I wouldn't be around. However, part of me feels I

should be around in an emergency (like death or serious illness). My Nada is 49,

so it may be awhile before something like this happens.

>

> However; being around in case of an emergency may be difficult because I live

farther than other people, and I would have to have either one of my sisters, or

my uncle email be about it since I changed my phone number.

>

> -Joy

>

[Guest guest]

Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered me...she

would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the conversation

around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say something like.. " YOU

hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla bla bla....-

It NEVER fails !!

Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

 

Its like playing a game of Tennis....The ball is the 'Responsibility'...

The other player is nada,...she can either CATCH the blame (accept

responsibility)

or hit the ball back at me

Without Fail...100% she hits the ball back at me (turns it around and blames me

for something instead)

 

Its likea REFLEX...she automatically cannot accept any..ANY fault

whatsoever....if she did, it would be admitting she was not perfect - and to

admit such a thing would be tantamount to not existing (since to exist is to

believe the fantasy she holds of herself...thats shes a good parent/mother)

 

- Steve

 

 

 

Subject: Re: NC question

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 11:42 PM

Hi Kim:

I've experienced the same thing. I never get an apology; and if I do, Nada tells

me she is sorry I got so upset. Same as yours! Or...(when I was younger and not

NC) I would naively trust her with my feelings since she was my *mother* and

tell her she hurt my feelings. She would then say: " Well, then you shouldn't

have done a/b/c. " She would use small, insignificant things I had done in the

past or said also for an excuse to yell at me. That way, it would be all my

fault.

But, if I brought up the past; I would be punished.

-Joy

> > >

> > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing as a

" get out of jail free " card.

> > >

> > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a raging

tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > >

> > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next week,

or whenever.

> > >

> > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > >

> > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic; she's

learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our outrage. How

can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm sorry, " she

blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must believe it makes her

perfect again.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

> > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations) . Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> >

> > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along the

lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize that

it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive] father/husband/

grandfather/ [pick-a-scapegoa t] was/is terrorizing me and putting me and you in

that situation. "

> >

> > Arianna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered me...she

would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the conversation

around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say something like.. " YOU

hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla bla bla....-

> It NEVER fails !!

> Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most outrageous

examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long, painfu labor)

and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told me that I was

being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not being respectful

enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS IN ACTIVE LABOR

IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of her) as her

excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that the doctor had

to call hospital security.

[Guest guest]

Joy, It is always someone else's fault. And since a real apology means admitting

fault, nada's don't give them. When I was still young enough for nada to

physically push around, she would tell me to tell her sorry, whenever I did

anything nada percieved as " offensive " . If I refused she'd hit me saying " say

you're sorry! " until I said it.

The wonderful lasting effect of that, is I constently apologize. Many of my

friends have pointed this out to me over the years, as I will apologize for

things that aren't my fault. (Say I need to get past someone and they have to

step to the side, I will saying I'm sorry along with excuse me)

> > > >

> > > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing as

a " get out of jail free " card.

> > > >

> > > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a raging

tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > > >

> > > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next

week, or whenever.

> > > >

> > > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > > >

> > > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic; she's

learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our outrage. How

can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm sorry, " she

blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must believe it makes

her perfect again.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> > > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations). Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> > >

> > > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along

the lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize

that it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive]

father/husband/grandfather/[pick-a-scapegoat] was/is terrorizing me and putting

me and you in that situation. "

> > >

> > > Arianna

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting stuff, Steve. It makes more sense looking at it from this

perspective.

-Joy

> > > >

> > > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing as

a " get out of jail free " card.

> > > >

> > > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a raging

tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > > >

> > > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next

week, or whenever.

> > > >

> > > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > > >

> > > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic; she's

learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our outrage. How

can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm sorry, " she

blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must believe it makes her

perfect again.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> > > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations) . Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> > >

> > > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along

the lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize

that it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive] father/husband/

grandfather/ [pick-a-scapegoa t] was/is terrorizing me and putting me and you in

that situation. "

> > >

> > > Arianna

> > >

> >

>

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[Guest guest]

OMGosh!!!

> >

> > Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> > If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered

me...she would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the

conversation around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say

something like.. " YOU hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla

bla bla....-

> > It NEVER fails !!

> > Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

>

> You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most outrageous

examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long, painfu labor)

and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told me that I was

being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not being respectful

enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS IN ACTIVE LABOR

IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of her) as her

excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that the doctor had

to call hospital security.

>

[Guest guest]

I dont know what I would have done if I had been you.

I WAS in the hospital for major surgery this past febl..nada was there every

day..

as SOON AS SHE ARRIVED...I was hating her and my blood pressure was up...

 

cause she was THERE,....and yet.....she was NOT THERE !!

 

Who was this woman ? and when she arrived, shed start making

decisions...arranging my bedside ARGHHH

I remember she came for 10 mins before she left (cause I was mean)

but you know, as soon as she left..i felt 'normal' again.

 

Your Nada sounds like a child as well as mine does...they cant see ANYONE

besides their own hurt and needs,,,im disheartened that your nada did

this....but you know...i CAN believe it !!

so sorry she was NOT there for you...even though she was 'there' - weird

 

 

Subject: Re: NC question

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 12:12 AM

>

> Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered

me....she would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the

conversation around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say

something like.. " YOU hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla

bla bla.....-

> It NEVER fails !!

> Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most outrageous

examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long, painfu labor)

and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told me that I was

being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not being respectful

enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS IN ACTIVE LABOR

IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of her) as her

excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that the doctor had

to call hospital security.

[Guest guest]

Oh my god this sounds exactly like my nada! And I do the same thing of

apologizing for everything, whether it's my fault or not.

I also still feel very guilty over things I shouldn't because my nada has been

blaming me for them my whole life. Like she always told me what a horrible baby

I was, how I loved my dad more than her (i wonder why - duh) how I cried all the

time (I had colic), how i would refuse to breast feed and was just BORN hating

her. (seriously she thinks I live my life to make her miserable). I still feel

guilty for being a baby, even though I don't remember it all, i KNOW it wasn't

my fault and that she's miserable no matter what I do anyway.

And I can get an " apology " out of her, but I have to apologize first. As a kid

she would ask me what i was sorry FOR. Of course, i didn't know, and then the

apology wouldn't " count " . Eventually I learned to make shit up about what I was

sorry for. " I'm sorry for making you upset. " I would write little love letters

to her trying to get her to forgive me, to love me. I would make up whatever I

could think of of things to be " sorry " for so that she would like me again.

Seems kind of pathetic now all the desperate shit I did to get her love, and she

never really could give it.

*leaves feeling sorry for my child self*

> > > > >

> > > > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses apologizing

as a " get out of jail free " card.

> > > > >

> > > > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a

raging tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next

week, or whenever.

> > > > >

> > > > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > > > >

> > > > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic;

she's learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our

outrage. How can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm

sorry, " she blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must

believe it makes her perfect again.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Annie

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations). Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> > > >

> > > > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run along

the lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to realize

that it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive]

father/husband/grandfather/[pick-a-scapegoat] was/is terrorizing me and putting

me and you in that situation. "

> > > >

> > > > Arianna

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, even during labor, nada's are all that matter to nada! I had something

similar. First when I was about 9 months preg nada (while we were trapped in a

car, well not trapped, but any car ride with nada is like being trapped) nada

fought with me because she did not want my dad (her X of about 15 years) to come

to the hospital. I tried to tell her (this was before I realized her PD and that

I was wasting my breath) that this was not about her. Haha.

Then when I was in labor, but still at home, I called her to take me to the OB,

since it was mid day and husband wasn't due home for a few hours and the OB said

to come in. By the time she got to my house, my contractions had moved further

apart so I decided to wait until my husband got home. Well, she was furious. I

was on hold with the doctor's office, waiting to get the ok to wait until my

husband got home, and she stood in my front door way raging for me to hurry and

decide. I told her I was on hold, but she flew off the handle about how I was

doing this on purpose to make her wait.(I was purposely making my hold time

longer??) So, I kicked her out.

I tried to call her when I hung up with the OB, but she didn't answer. (Cold

shoulder time) but then with 5 minutes I got calls from my aunt (possible BP,

not sure) telling me I should not be like this and going on and on about my

nada's feelings!! Apparently nada lied about what happened, and failed to

mention I tried to call her but nada refused to answer. Hello!! I was in labor,

it may have slowed down but it didn't stop. But the point was that nada felt

hurt. It was always about nada.

~Kim

> >

> > Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> > If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered

me...she would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the

conversation around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say

something like.. " YOU hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla

bla bla....-

> > It NEVER fails !!

> > Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

>

> You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most outrageous

examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long, painfu labor)

and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told me that I was

being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not being respectful

enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS IN ACTIVE LABOR

IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of her) as her

excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that the doctor had

to call hospital security.

>

[Guest guest]

RNMommy and NewSpecial - I think that when you're in labor, you should get

automatic dispensation to sock anybody you want to, right in the nose. I cannot

BELIEVE your mothers did that stuff to you. My mom followed us to the hospital,

but she spent her time browbeating the nurses until they gave me extra drugs.

So that was one of the " Golden Nada Moments " we've talked about elsewhere - good

job, Nada!! And then she decided my husband was " exhausted " because he'd had to

stand there and watch the C-section (I think it served him right...), so she

insisted he be allowed to lie down on a spare bed in the recovery room. I think

he's one of the few men who's ever taken up bed space in a labor and delivery

recovery room.-

> > >

> > > Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> > > If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered

me...she would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the

conversation around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say

something like.. " YOU hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla

bla bla....-

> > > It NEVER fails !!

> > > Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

> >

> > You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most

outrageous examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long,

painfu labor) and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told

me that I was being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not

being respectful enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS

IN ACTIVE LABOR IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of

her) as her excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that

the doctor had to call hospital security.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Another reason(of the millions) I didn't want nada anywhere near the hospital

until I delivered was b/c I did not want her treating the staff poorly. I'm an

RN and if I can save the nurses one less headache I do. Watching nada treat

medical staff badly (like when grandpa, nada's dad, was in the hospital) just

reminds me of all the people that have treated me poorly when I'm working. After

her scene at my house, nada was not called until after I devilered. It was a

blessing and so peaceful not having her around.

> > > >

> > > > Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> > > > If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered

me...she would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the

conversation around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say

something like.. " YOU hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla

bla bla....-

> > > > It NEVER fails !!

> > > > Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR

FAULT.

> > >

> > > You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most

outrageous examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long,

painfu labor) and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told

me that I was being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not

being respectful enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS

IN ACTIVE LABOR IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of

her) as her excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that

the doctor had to call hospital security.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Joy,you're only human.You cannot be more than that because that is how God

created you.Do you think that maybe the advice you read in that online article

about burning an angry letter was intended more as a suggestion of a better way

to process the anger and protect yourself from the fall out that sharing it with

your abuser might create than as a judgment call--ie that writing an angry

letter to a nada is " wrong " ? Do you see what I mean?

I'm glad you figured out what the guilty part of you is thinking.It seems to

me that you are being too hard on yourself.I say,so what if you a part of you

really did want to punish your nada when you wrote that letter to her.You said

that you remember feeling very emotional at the time and I'm sure you were

feeling many diificult emotions,one of which was anger,and that's ok.You have a

right to feel angry about having been abused.Even if the way we expressed that

anger was less than ideal or less than perfect,this doesn't detract from our

right to feel it.As KOs we have been put through enormous stress and there are

times when we are going to react to that stress and wish that we had handled it

better.But we learn and we grow and eventually we get ourselves to a clearer

place.It pains me that you feel guilty because I honestly believe you are

fundamentally a giving warm and kind person and I really don't think you deserve

to own that guilt.I hope that doesn't sound like I'm dismissing how you feel.I

have let go of feeling guilty on behalf of my parents and what I'm trying to say

is that I wish the same for you.

I'm glad you're feeling better and I hope you will continue to go from

strength to strength.

Best wishes,

> > > >

> > > > I am wondering for those of you who decided to go NC; how did you do it?

I wrote a letter.

> > > >

> > > > I basically wrote that I wouldn't be around. However, part of me feels I

should be around in an emergency (like death or serious illness). My Nada is 49,

so it may be awhile before something like this happens.

> > > >

> > > > However; being around in case of an emergency may be difficult because I

live farther than other people, and I would have to have either one of my

sisters, or my uncle email be about it since I changed my phone number.

> > > >

> > > > -Joy

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you, , I think we got where we are today despite our

nadas...I know mine was never supportive or encouraging!!

Jackie

Hi Joy, for me and you and I bet all of us here actually - our

accomplishments were made *in spite of* our nadas. It's possible that there

were some genetic gifts like intelligence or height, but the damage

psychologically from them is something we've had to heal and work to

overcome, maybe for a lifetime. Again...I don't know if explaining all

that will be fruitful to a person who doesn't want to understand or is

afraid to understand. I guess it all depends how important it is to you

that this person understand. I think I missed the thread about trouble with

your priest who was advising you but saw some reference to it...but I'll say

I'm not surprised. I've had a hard time finding therapists, trained

therapists, who are able to fully get it. For some reason, the experience

of a KO requires a person with special training and insight.

[Guest guest]

you're right, Deanna !! My sister told nada that my animals are my family,

and nada sniped back " well what does she think WE are ?? " andnada was angry

with me for what my sister said ( I never said that..I only said I took on

these animals, and they are MY responsibility to take care of them) and

nada has " accused " me over the years of loving my dogs more than I love

her...and I did tell her the last time that of course I do, they love me

unconditionally, they don't yell at me, treat me badly etc...she has never

mentioned it since...I've questioned her before about her unfairness and

uneven treatment of her kids...she claims she treats us all the same...oh,

brother..not even close !!

Jackie

Jackie, you obviously love a (gasp!) *horse* more than you (sniff, sniff)

love your (sniff) *OWN MOTHER*. At least, that's what my nada would say,

and HAS said, if you substitute " horse " for " cat " . It is crazy, but there

ARE different rules for different kids!

-Deanna

[Guest guest]

Yes, my nada also told me from time to time that she was convinced that as a

newborn/infant that I hated her(!?) Nada didn't say this jokingly, she said it

sincerely.

I'm willing to bet that this delusional belief of my nada's was probably due to

her narcissism.

I'm guessing that as an abject neophyte at child-care my nada was very nervous

and insecure. She had never even babysat for a child or taken care of a pet

before she had me.

I'm guessing that it badly upset, frustrated and irritated nada when she was

unable to instantly comfort her crying infant. Nada said I cried a lot, so, I'm

guessing I must have had colic too.

If the narcissist is unable to instantly comfort her infant, if the baby

continues to cry then the narcissist feels rejected, and therefor a failure.

So of course the infant is being deliberately mean and hateful; its not nada's

fault. Nada projects her own feelings of rejection and hatefulness onto the

infant.

This delusional, psychotic-type thinking is so chilling when you think about how

utterly innocent and helpless children are.

-Annie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I noticed you said your nada never apologizes. Mine uses

apologizing as a " get out of jail free " card.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When Sister and I were little nada would behave horribly (throw a

raging tantrum and beat Sister and me) then (sometimes) apologize for it, quite

profusely, while crying piteously and promising never to do that to us again.

Sister and I were then supposed to comfort *her* and forgive her; never mind

that we were still in shock and trembling with pain and fear, we were supposed

to comfort nada.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > However, nada would forget her promise later that same day, or next

week, or whenever.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > She still does this, sometimes: the apologizing. But sure enough,

afterward she denies having said the horrible thing, or having apologized (if

she never said the horrible thing to begin with, then there was no need for an

apology: bpd-universe logic.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *Appearing* remorseful is just a behavior she's learned to mimic;

she's learned that she can use it in an emergency to shield her from our

outrage. How can Sister and I be angry with her when she has apologized? " I'm

sorry, " she blubbers. That wipes her slate clean, in her mind; she must

believe it makes her perfect again.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -Annie

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Annie, my mother does this sometimes too - the apologizing, but it is

twisted beyond reason. For example, she tells me that I did XYZ things wrong

when I was 12 (yes, she still holds a grudge, for whatever childish innocent

transgressions, and she reaches more than 20 years back and still presents me

with accusations). Then when I tell her how she was behaving towards/around me

during that same time period, etc. she sometimes (although rarely) will actually

apologize and even sincerely, but then 20 minutes or a day or a week later she

will completely forget her apologies. When I remind her that she has actually

admitted to behaving a certain way towards me, she immediately launches into a

huge rant about how it was everyone else's fault, how her parents, her

ex-husband, her family, etc. had all put her in a situation where she had no

choice than to behave the way she did.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is always someone else's fault.... Her apologies most often run

along the lines of " I'm sorry you had such a difficult time, but you have to

realize that it was 100 times worse for me. Your [insert-expletive]

father/husband/grandfather/[pick-a-scapegoat] was/is terrorizing me and putting

me and you in that situation. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Arianna

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You poor little thing; *in labor* and at the mercy of Queen/Witch/flying monkey

bpd craziness in stereo on top of labor. Good lord. I'm so sorry you had to go

through that. Maybe next time you'll just call a cab; I think I would!

I'm betting any cabby you get will be more calm, reliable and compassionate than

nada.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Isnt it amazing how they are all alike....

> > > If I told my nada about something that she did that hurt me, bothered

me...she would IMMEDIATELY reflect it back at me....she would TURN the

conversation around IMMEDIATELY on me...almost like a reflex....and say

something like.. " YOU hurt? What about ME?? Doesnt anyone care if I hurt...bla

bla bla....-

> > > It NEVER fails !!

> > > Its ALWAYS about THEM and THEIR NEED...and Always about US and OUR FAULT.

> >

> > You have described my mother's behavior EXACTLY!!! One of the most

outrageous examples was when I was in labor with my first child (a very long,

painfu labor) and she was demanding that I tend to her feeling/needs. She told

me that I was being selfish and that I was not treating her well and was not

being respectful enough of her and was not caring about her feelings WHILE I WAS

IN ACTIVE LABOR IN THE HOSPITAL. She was using this (my supposed mistreatment of

her) as her excuse for making a horrible scene, ranting, raging so badly that

the doctor had to call hospital security.

> >

>