Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 The reason I asked how old you are is because back in day it was not as uncommon for someone to leave children alone and basically society as a whole was a safer place -- kids played in the streets without worry, kids babysat, etc...now days, it's not so much so. There are kidnappings on the news daily and while I'm sure they happened " back in the day " it certainly seemed as though neighbors and others watched out for each other more. Even when I was a kid in the 80's things were getting more dangerous for children. With the busyness of life, people can't do that as much anymore and it just seemed to me that our kids are not nearly as safe as they used to be. However, your post really has nothing to do with what I said. I said leaving kids under 8 is irresponsible. I'm not sure why you're trying to defend that. It's unreasonable. It's illegal. But I'll be the bigger person and drop the subject. In a message dated 10/25/2009 9:43:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kimmie827@... writes: And what the hell does my age have to do with it? Are you now assuming that either young people or old people somehow don't have valid opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I want to explain that this thread hit a sore nerve, and why. That same feeling of how people who did not have a nada, have their ideas that we should forgive and forget, or " its your mother " (I hate that phrase) and we KNOW that because these people did not walk in our shoes they can not even begin to comprehend what it was like. Worse, I find it hurtful and frustrating when people assume they know how it was, and compare their childhood to mine, by saying things like " my mother hit me a few times " or acting like their mother " had her moments too " . We all know one of the frustrating things about BPD, is its not just about one incident, but a childhood of not just physical but pyschological abuse, and that someone on the outside looking in will never get it. When things are said like people that can't be responsible for their kids shouldnt have them, or there's free childcare available, it floods me with the same feeling, ONLY I also grew up in poverty. I've lived in poor, welfare neighborhoods, motels and in homeless shelters growing up. I've stolen food to eat as a child. And while I don't know your financial situation growing up, it sounds as though you have not experienced that kind of dire need to survive. And when I hear you pass judgement on a life you don't seem to understand it gives me that same feeling as people that think they know what living with nada was like. Also when people who have not walked in our shoes have their " solutions " like " just try being nicer to your mother " or " don't bring up subjects that start fights " because normal adult children, I'm sure disagree with their parents at times, and they just avoid those topics (politics for example). What people with normal parent don't understand is it NEVER that simple. When you say there's free childcare for people who qualify, I get the same sick feeling because its NEVER that simple. NEVER. I hate to compare this to being a KO but thats the only way I can think to explain it. Living in poverty is something that you can only understand if you've been there. And just as people who say " my mother hit me growing up and I'm fine " try to compare their mothers to my nada...it goes the same way with people who tell me " oh well we had hand me downs growing up, yeah we were poor too. " Ok that's not poor. I shoplifted most of my clothes until I was 15 and old enough to get a job and even then, my nada would keep my weeks pay anyway, so most of the time I'd work all week (either after school ,or days in the summer) and never see a dime. So I still shoplifted for school clothes and supplies. And you know what? Its actually easier to shoplift from 2nd time around shops than malls and department stores. Unfortuanely I was still growing in my teens, so I needed larger clothes from time to time. I also have permenantly deformed toes from wearing shoes too long as my feet grew. They are pulled in together, and they toe nails grow pointing in, like a minor case of chinese foot binding. I hope I've made this clear. This thread has made me so upset that I'm considering taking a break from this site, which I just came back to after a break, for personal reasons. I don't come here to hear other think they know what other people's lives are like and pass judgement on them. While I don't agree with leaving small kids home alone. Obviously, its dangerous, and Children's Services would get involved in something like that, this thread hit to close to home for me with people who have never walked in other people's shoes, making judgements about theit character. Like I said, I've shoplifted food and clothing, and more than that. Are you going to judge me as a theft? As a horrible person? Or do you take circumstance into consideration? ~Kim > > I can agree with the more choices thing. I don't think it should ever be > an option to leave children under 10 home alone under any circumstance. It's > illegal, unsafe, dangerous and negligent. Our county has free childcare for > those who qualify. I don't know that it's the most desirable place to > leave a child, but it certainly beats leaving them alone. > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 8:54:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kimmie827@... writes: > > > > > People who shouldn't have kids, have them everyday. If it was as simple as > people that aren't responsible just shouldn't have kids, I know I wouldn't > be on this earth. So that's not a solution. Not that we are here to solve > the ills of the world, but honestly, there's how things should be and how > they are. Parents, responsible parents, are in need of MORE choices, so this > type of situation NEVER happens. They are not in need of judgements, that > do not help them or their children. > ~Kim > --- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_ > (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm > > > > People who can't watch their kids and be responsible for them shouldn't > > have them. If that's judgemental, then it is. The welfare of a child > comes > > first. > > > > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 6:33:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > xrisacct@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible > > parents do > > > not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time. > > > Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for > > their kids' > > > safety and welfare. > > > > Where I lived ,there weren't any people willing to watch kids, and the > > local tanf people would not pay money to people-they had to go out and > get a > > job. And no employer ever gave a break at all to any parent if their kid > was > > sick, or in trouble, or alone at home. My cousin lost 4 jobs i none year > > due to that. It literally was do or die-people lost their kids due to > the > > fact no one would watch them. Add to that that the local grandparents > had the > > idea that the kids had to work out problems for themselves, and refused > to > > watch them, and they still can't do anything to make them help. > > > > > > > > When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again; > > when > > > elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school > bus > > home and > > > stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my > > Sister's > > > age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know > > whether my > > > nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however. > > > > But you had someone else willing-the majority of parents nationwide, > > according to surveys over and over ,do not. > > > > You can be as judgmental as you want, but rent is still due at the first > > week, and if there is no money, there's no place to live. And no one to > > watch the kids. We watched over a dozen one day, simply because we had a > > ridiculous amount of food ,were willing ,and the parents were screwed. > When cops > > and others tried to make trouble, I stood up for the kids and parents, > and > > they backed right down-they weren't used to someone knowing the actual > laws > > willing to fight back with a better vocabulary than they had, and they > > just stood there staring, looking dumbfounded. The heck with them-if > it's > > surivival, I have stood up for anyone. And despite your judgment, that > won't > > make those people I helped out get a sitter no matter what. I knew what > to do, > > but even with that, only one woman was willing to watch my honey's kids, > > since the laws changed right after Bush took office, and the 50+ people > who > > were willing, went down to two-and the other just simply said no, > > despite being required by law, and there was nothing we could do. > > > > You sound like my nada-she always said there was a way, but I have never > > found one, and neither ever did she, for most of the things she claimed > did > > have answers. That's just pure abuse-there are not good solutions for > most > > problems despite the rhetoric, and until there are, settling for second > > best is pretty much what most people have to do. Quoting about your > nada's > > neighbor won't solve that either-we didn't, and neither did most of our > > neighbors, have anyone to watch the kids. > > > > If a woman with 2 kids leaves them, and comes home 6 hours later and > they > > are fine, then she will do it again. She has no other choice in many > places > > in the U.S. > > > > At age 11 I was > > > considered old enough to participate in supervised after-school > > activities then > > > walk home and be home alone for a little while until nada returned. > > > > Where we lived, there are none, and the age of being able to watch > onself > > was 13. That means if a 12 year old answers the door when a jerk > neighbor > > calls the cops, then your kids are taken out of the home, and the cops > don't > > tell you where they are for up to 48 hours. > > > > It didn't happen to us, as we were fortunate. But it happened to enough > > people, I stopped being judgmental like you, and realized no amount of > > criticism would cause money to appear, and sitters to appear, for free, > or even > > to be available. > > > > Everyone seems to think working women are " magic " , and can make all > that > > happen without help or money, and I know better now. There aren't > resources > > for the majority of Americans anymore, or people helping so those > problems > > will keep happening. Alternet had an article about one Ohio town where > men > > drive to, since there are so many lonely teen girls, and they ask men on > > the street for sex, basically anyone-and it's due to economics and a > lack of > > things to do. Each and every time the girls were given something to do > or > > some sort of realistic hope, instead of one of those Women Resource > Center > > people giving them a feminist lecture ,that stopped too. > > > > I've been offered sex twice by 11 year old little girls-once at Coronado > > mall in ABQ, and once in West Virginia. Little girls NEVER asked me that > in > > places that had jobs, or parents around. But that is all dependent on > > things beyond any parent's control. We left WV, as we were able to do > so. I know > > people there now, even if it meant killing someone in cold blood, they > > would do it, just for a chance to leave. But money doesn't grow on > trees, so > > they get stuck there, and have to go thru the above. > > > > > > > > When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single mom > > and had > > > to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy while > > she > > > worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when that > > child was > > > little he was never left alone to take care of himself; > > > > The average work week where we lived was 23 hours, the average pay, > about > > 6$ an hour. Both parents worked at the employer's whim, otherwise you > lost > > your job-only took two absences, for any reason ,to be fired. > > > > So given that rent averaged 500$ a month, how exactly would you work > that, > > then? Utilities ran $100-400$ a month, too. And don't give me that thing > > about employer's listening to parents or working with them-I tried that, > and > > so did everyone I knew, and no one ever had an amployer listen ever. If > > you were called at 2 pm, and told to come to work, you either did it or > lost > > your job. Didn't matter if your kids were 6-8, and came home to an empty > > house, you still had to go, and the school refused to deliver messages > too. > > And there was always some neighbor who would call the cops on you, > unless > > you gave them food, sex, or something else to get them to shut up. My > honey > > didn't have to do that, since I was there, and really got people like > that > > into some serious problems with their own employers and the cops. But > not > > everyone is quick as I am, went to college and took civil rights courses > ,or > > has a 148 IQ, or prior experience with a nada, either. > > > > she made sure he had > > > interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes and > > Scouting and > > > such when he was older. > > > > Martial arts courses are 100$ a month where I live, 60$ per person where > I > > used to live, So how ,on the above work schedules and money would you do > > that? Hmm? You wouldn't. And when the cop showed up as he did with my > > cousin, Mr Whitey from Barboursville, and offered to get rid of her > problems with > > the cops in return for sex, and he told her he had two girls that > " looked > > like her " , and it was either that or lose them you'd be thinking twice > too. > > People get pushed into situations like that. They don't choose them. And > > in some places like where I used to live, that is the only choice there > is, > > at all. > > > > > > > > Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little kids > > alone > > > > You are a pretty self righteous person if after reading the above, you > > still think that, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. All your > nada-like > > judgment is not going to make money appear where it doesn't exist. And > that > > is now the operative m.o. for most people, most parents, nationwide. > > > > and > > > unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in charge > > of " a > > > younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to > " parentify " > > a young > > > child that way. > > > > Well, when the 9$ an hour cps person shows up, you can explain to her > why > > the kids are alone , and how there isn't any money. I'm sure that will > make > > you feel good and self righteous to put someone down like that, as their > > kids get taken away. I saw that happen, which is why even now I will not > > report people to cps. They didn't do anything but terrorize anyone > anyway. > > Only one person listened, and she helped us out, AND was made head of > the > > local cps unit right afterwards too. But for the other people, who don't > know > > what to do, your judgment won't help them one bit. > > > > Women like that need help, not judgment. As the Bible says, mercy > triumphs > > over judgment. I saw what I saw, including blacks getting beat up and > > threatened by cops for no reason ,and I will die a liberal due to that. > I was a > > white separatist at that time too. But I know better now, and know > people > > are just people. They get into situations they can't help. Blacks were > > doing nothing where I lived, and I watched a white cop throw one kid > down, draw > > a gun, and point it in his face. His anger grew (the kid's), and he > > started going after people for it. Displaced, repressed anger. He did > NOT deserve > > that, and no one, not even the TV stations, would do anything about it. > > But no one needs some judgmental jerk like yourself putting them down, > just > > because you think that since your mother got help from someone ,there > are > > other people out there who will on command too. I know better. I will > NEVER > > judge a woman raising kids for being stressed out ever again, no > > matter what. I have seen women get forced by cops into sex, and > > threatened, and no one, not even those stupid Women's Resource Center's > people and > > such help them out. I helped them out, cuz I realized enough when I was > a kid > > what it was like to be judged beyond belief, and will NEVER put another > > person down for that kind of hopeless hell or their inability to get > what they > > need, ever again. NEVER. I learned something about that, and that was my > > nada was profoundly wrong to judge people in that way. Instead, I will > just > > help them as I have always done. > > > > Being a light in the darkness is much more helpful than being the > darkness > > holding a bucket of water for the candle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I would like to respond to the person who commented that people who can't be responsible shouldn't have children. In my experience, situations can change drastically over time and you just don't know what your life may be after a divorce or a job loss for example. As a mom sometimes you are caught between a rock and a hard place. I had 5 young kids when my npd ex and I divorced. We had joint legal and physical custody because he didn't want to pay child support and we were to equally share expenses. I was working my tail off - my babies were with a sitter and then their dad all the time. I couldn't take them to the grocery store because I could only buy specific things with so little money and I felt so torn having to always say no about every little thing I went to work as an " exotic dancer " at age 34 so that I could only work on the nights the kids were with my ex. It was the hardest thing to do but i was desperate. I was able to get them the things they needed and not have a sitter. Now 10 years later I am remarried to a wonderful man but my past job haunts me as my npd ex is telling my now teenage daughters about it. I guess my point is - sometimes people make questionable choices in an effort to be a good mom. It's hard work - it's terrifying to be unable to support your children and it's sad that there aren't more resources available. Sent from my iPhone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 You know what, you're just not getting what I'm saying. I don't come to this board to explain myself over and over. I said it was dangerous. I'm not defending it, I'm defending that you feel you have the right to make a general assumption about the character of every parent. I know I wrote a long post, but obviously you didn't read it. And to sit there and say I'm trying to compare whose childhood was worse, is stupid. You've really pushed one of my buttons. I don't know where you get this idea that there are just free childcare places, to drop kids off??? I've said several times that I don NOT agree with leaving young children home alone. But then some people made the jump to say ANY parent that does that is a bad parent, an other choice words. What some people here are trying to say, is there are, SOMETIMES situations that GOOD, RESPONSIBLE parents that feel bad about their choice, leave there kids alone, but do it because they feel there are no other options. And for you to say there's free childcare is INSULTING! ITs so incredibly insulting that you think all these parents are just morons that haven't checked out all the other optionss for their child, but if YOU were in that situation you'd have all the answers. Its arrogant. I need to find an ignore button for you. I don't care how mean that sounds. I'm generally a peaceful person, but you are one of my triggers. Someone that just knows without experience how you would solve the problems, so anyone that doesn't do what you're suggesting MUST just be a bad parent. It can't possibly be that you are wrong and that free child care isn't always available? Or what about parents that can only find evening work when THERE ARE NOT DAYCARES OPEN?? What's the solution to that? And what the hell does my age have to do with it? Are you now assuming that either young people or old people somehow don't have valid opinions? Thank you for making this website another source of anxiety for me. ~Kim > > I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the idea that leaving children > under 10 home alone is unsafe. While your childhood sounds horrid, so have > all of ours been and we can't compare " Oh, my childhood was worse than > yours because I had to do so and so and you didn't. " It's not like that at > all. I don't know how old you are, but it doesn't change the fact that > leaving children unattended before they're mature enough or old enough to be is > dangerous. And yes, there ARE other options if people investigate them. > They may not always be desirable options, but leaving a child in free county > daycare would, in my opinion, be a much better choice than leaving them > alone. I don't know why you feel it's defendable. It really isn't. I mean, > I grew up with a single mother who left me with an uncle would sexually > abused me. Was that her only option? NO! It was not. > > > In a message dated 10/25/2009 8:07:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kimmie827@... writes: > > > > > I want to explain that this thread hit a sore nerve, and why. That same > feeling of how people who did not have a nada, have their ideas that we should > forgive and forget, or " its your mother " (I hate that phrase) and we KNOW > that because these people did not walk in our shoes they can not even begin > to comprehend what it was like. > Worse, I find it hurtful and frustrating when people assume they know how > it was, and compare their childhood to mine, by saying things like " my > mother hit me a few times " or acting like their mother " had her moments too " . > We all know one of the frustrating things about BPD, is its not just about > one incident, but a childhood of not just physical but pyschological abuse, > and that someone on the outside looking in will never get it. > > When things are said like people that can't be responsible for their kids > shouldnt have them, or there's free childcare available, it floods me with > the same feeling, ONLY I also grew up in poverty. I've lived in poor, > welfare neighborhoods, motels and in homeless shelters growing up. I've stolen > food to eat as a child. And while I don't know your financial situation > growing up, it sounds as though you have not experienced that kind of dire need > to survive. And when I hear you pass judgement on a life you don't seem to > understand it gives me that same feeling as people that think they know > what living with nada was like. > > Also when people who have not walked in our shoes have their " solutions " > like " just try being nicer to your mother " or " don't bring up subjects that > start fights " because normal adult children, I'm sure disagree with their > parents at times, and they just avoid those topics (politics for example). > What people with normal parent don't understand is it NEVER that simple. > > When you say there's free childcare for people who qualify, I get the same > sick feeling because its NEVER that simple. NEVER. > > I hate to compare this to being a KO but thats the only way I can think to > explain it. Living in poverty is something that you can only understand if > you've been there. And just as people who say " my mother hit me growing up > and I'm fine " try to compare their mothers to my nada...it goes the same > way with people who tell me " oh well we had hand me downs growing up, yeah > we were poor too. " Ok that's not poor. I shoplifted most of my clothes until > I was 15 and old enough to get a job and even then, my nada would keep my > weeks pay anyway, so most of the time I'd work all week (either after > school ,or days in the summer) and never see a dime. > So I still shoplifted for school clothes and supplies. And you know what? > Its actually easier to shoplift from 2nd time around shops than malls and > department stores. Unfortuanely I was still growing in my teens, so I needed > larger clothes from time to time. I also have permenantly deformed toes > from wearing shoes too long as my feet grew. They are pulled in together, and > they toe nails grow pointing in, like a minor case of chinese foot binding. > > I hope I've made this clear. This thread has made me so upset that I'm > considering taking a break from this site, which I just came back to after a > break, for personal reasons. I don't come here to hear other think they know > what other people's lives are like and pass judgement on them. While I > don't agree with leaving small kids home alone. Obviously, its dangerous, and > Children's Services would get involved in something like that, this thread > hit to close to home for me with people who have never walked in other > people's shoes, making judgements about theit character. Like I said, I've > shoplifted food and clothing, and more than that. Are you going to judge me as > a theft? As a horrible person? Or do you take circumstance into > consideration? > > ~Kim > > --- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_ > (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm > > > > I can agree with the more choices thing. I don't think it should ever be > > an option to leave children under 10 home alone under any circumstance. > It's > > illegal, unsafe, dangerous and negligent. Our county has free childcare > for > > those who qualify. I don't know that it's the most desirable place to > > leave a child, but it certainly beats leaving them alone. > > > > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 8:54:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > kimmie827@ kimmie82 > > > > > > > > > > People who shouldn't have kids, have them everyday. If it was as simple > as > > people that aren't responsible just shouldn't have kids, I know I > wouldn't > > be on this earth. So that's not a solution. Not that we are here to > solve > > the ills of the world, but honestly, there's how things should be and > how > > they are. Parents, responsible parents, are in need of MORE choices, so > this > > type of situation NEVER happens. They are not in need of judgements, > that > > do not help them or their children. > > ~Kim > > --- In _WTOAdultChildren1@ --- In _WTOAdultChil > > (mailto:_WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_ > (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) ) , Hummingbird1298@) > > > > > > People who can't watch their kids and be responsible for them > shouldn't > > > have them. If that's judgemental, then it is. The welfare of a child > > comes > > > first. > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 6:33:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > > xrisacct@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible > > > parents do > > > > not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time. > > > > Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for > > > > their kids' > > > > safety and welfare. > > > > > > Where I lived ,there weren't any people willing to watch kids, and the > > > local tanf people would not pay money to people-they had to go out and > > get a > > > job. And no employer ever gave a break at all to any parent if their > kid > > was > > > sick, or in trouble, or alone at home. My cousin lost 4 jobs i none > year > > > due to that. It literally was do or die-people lost their kids due to > > the > > > fact no one would watch them. Add to that that the local grandparents > > had the > > > idea that the kids had to work out problems for themselves, and > refused > > to > > > watch them, and they still can't do anything to make them help. > > > > > > > > > > > When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working > again; > > > when > > > > elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school > > bus > > > home and > > > > stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my > > > Sister's > > > > age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know > > > whether my > > > > nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however. > > > > > > But you had someone else willing-the majority of parents nationwide, > > > according to surveys over and over ,do not. > > > > > > You can be as judgmental as you want, but rent is still due at the > first > > > week, and if there is no money, there's no place to live. And no one > to > > > watch the kids. We watched over a dozen one day, simply because we had > a > > > ridiculous amount of food ,were willing ,and the parents were screwed. > > When cops > > > and others tried to make trouble, I stood up for the kids and parents, > > > and > > > they backed right down-they weren't used to someone knowing the actual > > laws > > > willing to fight back with a better vocabulary than they had, and they > > > just stood there staring, looking dumbfounded. The heck with them-if > > it's > > > surivival, I have stood up for anyone. And despite your judgment, that > > > won't > > > make those people I helped out get a sitter no matter what. I knew > what > > to do, > > > but even with that, only one woman was willing to watch my honey's > kids, > > > since the laws changed right after Bush took office, and the 50+ > people > > who > > > were willing, went down to two-and the other just simply said no, > > > despite being required by law, and there was nothing we could do. > > > > > > You sound like my nada-she always said there was a way, but I have > never > > > found one, and neither ever did she, for most of the things she > claimed > > did > > > have answers. That's just pure abuse-there are not good solutions for > > most > > > problems despite the rhetoric, and until there are, settling for > second > > > best is pretty much what most people have to do. Quoting about your > > nada's > > > neighbor won't solve that either-we didn't, and neither did most of > our > > > neighbors, have anyone to watch the kids. > > > > > > If a woman with 2 kids leaves them, and comes home 6 hours later and > > they > > > are fine, then she will do it again. She has no other choice in many > > places > > > in the U.S. > > > > > > At age 11 I was > > > > considered old enough to participate in supervised after-school > > > activities then > > > > walk home and be home alone for a little while until nada returned. > > > > > > Where we lived, there are none, and the age of being able to watch > > onself > > > was 13. That means if a 12 year old answers the door when a jerk > > neighbor > > > calls the cops, then your kids are taken out of the home, and the cops > > don't > > > tell you where they are for up to 48 hours. > > > > > > It didn't happen to us, as we were fortunate. But it happened to > enough > > > people, I stopped being judgmental like you, and realized no amount of > > > criticism would cause money to appear, and sitters to appear, for > free, > > or even > > > to be available. > > > > > > Everyone seems to think working women are " magic " , and can make all > > that > > > happen without help or money, and I know better now. There aren't > > resources > > > for the majority of Americans anymore, or people helping so those > > problems > > > will keep happening. Alternet had an article about one Ohio town where > > men > > > drive to, since there are so many lonely teen girls, and they ask men > on > > > the street for sex, basically anyone-and it's due to economics and a > > lack of > > > things to do. Each and every time the girls were given something to do > > or > > > some sort of realistic hope, instead of one of those Women Resource > > Center > > > people giving them a feminist lecture ,that stopped too. > > > > > > I've been offered sex twice by 11 year old little girls-once at > Coronado > > > mall in ABQ, and once in West Virginia. Little girls NEVER asked me > that > > in > > > places that had jobs, or parents around. But that is all dependent on > > > things beyond any parent's control. We left WV, as we were able to do > > so. I know > > > people there now, even if it meant killing someone in cold blood, they > > > would do it, just for a chance to leave. But money doesn't grow on > > trees, so > > > they get stuck there, and have to go thru the above. > > > > > > > > > > > When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single > mom > > > and had > > > > to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy > while > > > she > > > > worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when > that > > > child was > > > > little he was never left alone to take care of himself; > > > > > > The average work week where we lived was 23 hours, the average pay, > > about > > > 6$ an hour. Both parents worked at the employer's whim, otherwise you > > lost > > > your job-only took two absences, for any reason ,to be fired. > > > > > > So given that rent averaged 500$ a month, how exactly would you work > > that, > > > then? Utilities ran $100-400$ a month, too. And don't give me that > thing > > > about employer's listening to parents or working with them-I tried > that, > > and > > > so did everyone I knew, and no one ever had an amployer listen ever. > If > > > you were called at 2 pm, and told to come to work, you either did it > or > > lost > > > your job. Didn't matter if your kids were 6-8, and came home to an > empty > > > house, you still had to go, and the school refused to deliver messages > > too. > > > And there was always some neighbor who would call the cops on you, > > unless > > > you gave them food, sex, or something else to get them to shut up. My > > honey > > > didn't have to do that, since I was there, and really got people like > > that > > > into some serious problems with their own employers and the cops. But > > not > > > everyone is quick as I am, went to college and took civil rights > courses > > ,or > > > has a 148 IQ, or prior experience with a nada, either. > > > > > > she made sure he had > > > > interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes and > > > Scouting and > > > > such when he was older. > > > > > > Martial arts courses are 100$ a month where I live, 60$ per person > where > > I > > > used to live, So how ,on the above work schedules and money would you > do > > > that? Hmm? You wouldn't. And when the cop showed up as he did with my > > > cousin, Mr Whitey from Barboursville, and offered to get rid of her > > problems with > > > the cops in return for sex, and he told her he had two girls that > > " looked > > > like her " , and it was either that or lose them you'd be thinking twice > > too. > > > People get pushed into situations like that. They don't choose them. > And > > > in some places like where I used to live, that is the only choice > there > > is, > > > at all. > > > > > > > > > > > Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little > kids > > > alone > > > > > > You are a pretty self righteous person if after reading the above, you > > > still think that, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. All your > > nada-like > > > judgment is not going to make money appear where it doesn't exist. And > > that > > > is now the operative m.o. for most people, most parents, nationwide. > > > > > > and > > > > unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in > charge > > > of " a > > > > younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to > > " parentify " > > > a young > > > > child that way. > > > > > > Well, when the 9$ an hour cps person shows up, you can explain to her > > why > > > the kids are alone , and how there isn't any money. I'm sure that will > > > make > > > you feel good and self righteous to put someone down like that, as > their > > > kids get taken away. I saw that happen, which is why even now I will > not > > > report people to cps. They didn't do anything but terrorize anyone > > anyway. > > > Only one person listened, and she helped us out, AND was made head of > > the > > > local cps unit right afterwards too. But for the other people, who > don't > > know > > > what to do, your judgment won't help them one bit. > > > > > > Women like that need help, not judgment. As the Bible says, mercy > > triumphs > > > over judgment. I saw what I saw, including blacks getting beat up and > > > threatened by cops for no reason ,and I will die a liberal due to > that. > > I was a > > > white separatist at that time too. But I know better now, and know > > people > > > are just people. They get into situations they can't help. Blacks were > > > doing nothing where I lived, and I watched a white cop throw one kid > > down, draw > > > a gun, and point it in his face. His anger grew (the kid's), and he > > > started going after people for it. Displaced, repressed anger. He did > > NOT deserve > > > that, and no one, not even the TV stations, would do anything about > it. > > > But no one needs some judgmental jerk like yourself putting them down, > > just > > > because you think that since your mother got help from someone ,there > > are > > > other people out there who will on command too. I know better. I will > > NEVER > > > judge a woman raising kids for being stressed out ever again, no > > > matter what. I have seen women get forced by cops into sex, and > > > threatened, and no one, not even those stupid Women's Resource > Center's > > people and > > > such help them out. I helped them out, cuz I realized enough when I > was > > a kid > > > what it was like to be judged beyond belief, and will NEVER put > another > > > person down for that kind of hopeless hell or their inability to get > > what they > > > need, ever again. NEVER. I learned something about that, and that was > my > > > nada was profoundly wrong to judge people in that way. Instead, I will > > > just > > > help them as I have always done. > > > > > > Being a light in the darkness is much more helpful than being the > > darkness > > > holding a bucket of water for the candle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Thank you for sharing your story. ~Kim > > I would like to respond to the person who commented that people who can't be responsible shouldn't have children. In my experience, situations can change drastically over time and you just don't know what your life may be after a divorce or a job loss for example. As a mom sometimes you are caught between a rock and a hard place. I had 5 young kids when my npd ex and I divorced. We had joint legal and physical custody because he didn't want to pay child support and we were to equally share expenses. I was working my tail off - my babies were with a sitter and then their dad all the time. I couldn't take them to the grocery store because I could only buy specific things with so little money and I felt so torn having to always say no about every little thing I went to work as an " exotic dancer " at age 34 so that I could only work on the nights the kids were with my ex. It was the hardest thing to do but i was desperate. I was able to get them the things > they needed and not have a sitter. Now 10 years later I am remarried to a wonderful man but my past job haunts me as my npd ex is telling my now teenage daughters about it. I guess my point is - sometimes people make questionable choices in an effort to be a good mom. It's hard work - it's terrifying to be unable to support your children and it's sad that there aren't more resources available. > > Sent from my iPhone > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 Hummingbird said " Someone said (basically) that it was okay to leave kids alone if they were poor and had no other choice " Who said that? NO ONE SAID THAT! Jesus, its never okay. But you are judging that character of the parent, assuming there are horrible parents, I'm telling you sometimes good people do things they are not proud of because of circumstance. Your quote SHOW YOU ARE NOT READING THESE POSTS. You're reading what you want ot read, and igonring what is being said. You're really good at putting words in people's mouths. ~Kim > > There's a big difference in finding work to support yourself (which is > legal) and leaving kids unattended alone. This is apples and oranges. No where > in this post did I see irresponsibility or negligence. Was it a job you > wanted to do? Maybe not, but you did what you had to do to support your > family and be a good mother. I see that as admirable, not something to be > ashamed of. And if your npd ex is telling your girls, then if they're > teenagers, hopefully they can understand WHY you did what you did. Still, this is a > far cry from people who leave kids ALONE which was what prompted my comment > that there were many more options out there if people investigated it. > Someone said (basically) that it was okay to leave kids alone if they were > poor and had no other choice and I said, no, that's not okay no matter what > you're income level is because there are too many other options this day in > time (and perhaps there should be MORE) than to leave your kids in danger. > Aside from the fact that it's dangerous for the child, it's illegal. > There are other choices out there. There are people, organizations, churches, > government programs, etc....that help. There are some companies that have > daycares. > > I have been watching this poor mother on the news whose daughter was > kidnapped and murdered in Florida. She was allowing her 7 year old to walk home > from school an entire mile. Her daughter was with other children, but had > run ahead because of an argument and when she was taken she was alone. She > said she told her kids about " stranger danger " and told them what to do if > anyone ever tried to kidnap them. She told them to stay together in > groups. But in the end, it was all for nothing. There was no adult supervision > and now her precious baby is dead because some sicko out there was in the > wrong place at the wrong time. The moral of this story, though, is that you > can't trust a child who is 7 or 8 years old to do the right thing. I > can't tell you how many times I have told my kids if I am in the shower or > another room in the house, do NOT open the door if someone rings the doorbell > and I can't tell you how many times they have done just that. Kids that age > are not mature enough to make appropriate decisions. That's why they > require supervision. It's sad, but this day in time it's not appropriate and > there is really no reason for it. > > > In a message dated 10/25/2009 9:25:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ronandkim454@... writes: > > > > > I would like to respond to the person who commented that people who can't > be responsible shouldn't have children. In my experience, situations can > change drastically over time and you just don't know what your life may be > after a divorce or a job loss for example. As a mom sometimes you are caught > between a rock and a hard place. I had 5 young kids when my npd ex and I > divorced. We had joint legal and physical custody because he didn't want to > pay child support and we were to equally share expenses. I was working my > tail off - my babies were with a sitter and then their dad all the time. I > couldn't take them to the grocery store because I could only buy specific > things with so little money and I felt so torn having to always say no about > every little thing I went to work as an " exotic dancer " at age 34 so that I > could only work on the nights the kids were with my ex. It was the hardest > thing to do but i was desperate. I was able to get them the things > they needed and not have a sitter. Now 10 years later I am remarried to a > wonderful man but my past job haunts me as my npd ex is telling my now > teenage daughters about it. I guess my point is - sometimes people make > questionable choices in an effort to be a good mom. It's hard work - it's > terrifying to be unable to support your children and it's sad that there aren't > more resources available. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 " But I'll be the bigger person and drop the subject. " Wow, spoken like a true passive agressive person! Sorry you don't understand the point I'm making. I thought I explained it very clearly and calmly in a previous post, but still, you didnt get it. ~Kim > > The reason I asked how old you are is because back in day it was not as > uncommon for someone to leave children alone and basically society as a whole > was a safer place -- kids played in the streets without worry, kids > babysat, etc...now days, it's not so much so. There are kidnappings on the news > daily and while I'm sure they happened " back in the day " it certainly seemed > as though neighbors and others watched out for each other more. Even when > I was a kid in the 80's things were getting more dangerous for children. > With the busyness of life, people can't do that as much anymore and it just > seemed to me that our kids are not nearly as safe as they used to be. > However, your post really has nothing to do with what I said. I said leaving > kids under 8 is irresponsible. I'm not sure why you're trying to defend > that. It's unreasonable. It's illegal. But I'll be the bigger person and > drop the subject. > > > In a message dated 10/25/2009 9:43:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > kimmie827@... writes: > > And what the hell does my age have to do with it? Are you now assuming > that either young people or old people somehow don't have valid opinions? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 At 08:18 PM 10/24/2009 Hummingbird1298@... wrote: >People who can't watch their kids and be responsible for them >shouldn't have them. If that's judgemental, then it is. My problem with that statement isn't that it is judgemental but rather that I don't think it is realistic. I totally agree that people shouldn't choose to have kids if they don't have the means to support and care for them. I'm really sick of seeing people who had no business having children begging for other people to support their children for them. Unfortunately, people don't always know that they're not going to have the means to do a great job of raising their children. Circumstances change. Spouses die or run off, jobs disappear, people have health problems, etc. Besides that, accidents do happen where having kids is concerned and sometimes people choose to keep children they didn't plan on having. Also, people sometimes end up raising children who aren't their own. A lot of grandparents are now raising children they never intended to have. The end result of all of that is that there are well-intentioned, good people who are trying to raise children in circumstances that are far from ideal. My experience is that even poor people generally don't choose to leave their young children home alone if they can find an alternative. I live in a city where at least a third of the households are below the poverty level. I've never come across any normal (non-pd) parent who willingly chooses to leave children as young as the ones being discussed home alone on a regular basis. I'm sure it happens though and I'm even more sure that some of the situations where they're with someone else are far from ideal. The teen birth rate here is quite high and too many of the mothers here are barely more than children themselves. 13- and 14-year-olds just aren't ready to be responsible mothers. My mother left my sister alone at night at a young age because she wanted the shift differential for working at night. No matter what she claims, she wasn't so poor that she needed that bit of extra money. Her money problems have always come from spending too much, not from not earning enough to live on. That's not the case with many non-BPD parents who make similar choices though. Too many parents end up leaving their kids alone while they work because they simply can't afford to miss work when their childcare arrangements fall through or because they can't afford to pay for childcare at all. I think the issues involved with children being left alone by parents with BPD or other mental health problems are quite different from the issues involved when the parents see no other choice. Either way, it isn't good for the children, but different solutions are needed to fix the problems. Our nadas make bad choices even when there are good options available. Putting it bluntly, as a society, we need to both do more to help parents who are trying their best but having problems and to make sure children are not left in situations that are dangerous. More affordable childcare options would help a lot as would childcare options that don't work on the idea that people work 9-5 Monday through Friday. Most areas of the US simply don't have free childcare available, or if they do, there's a long waiting list for children to get into it. Helping people to make better choices before having children would help a lot too. If teen girls weren't having babies, then they could get enough of an education to qualify them for a decent job so they'd have the means to support children later. If teen boys didn't drop out of school to join gangs, then they'd have a better chance at being responsible fathers later. Poverty is responsible for a lot of problems and dealing with the root causes of that is easier said than done. -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I think that the overriding issue regarding child abuse and neglect is having mentally ill parents: having a borderline or Cluster B pd mother who is *also* poor is the worst-case scenario for a child. A mentally ill parent (and/or a parent who drinks and does drugs) who doesn't provide even minimal nurturing (leaves her 3-year-old in the care of other small children who let her walk around town naked, doesn't see that her children bathe regularly or learn to brush their teeth, doesn't buy her children socks and underwear, doesn't wash her child's clothes or buy her child new clothes so the child goes to school filthy, doesn't take the child for medical or dental checkups, etc., etc.) just doesn't *care* about taking advantage of the various services and financial assistance programs that are available for her and her child like the Head Start programs, WIC programs, and other government-funded community-based infant, child, youth and teen care and development programs. I've been doing some research and have turned up more information than I could have believed possible on various assistance programs RE child-care available to poor single mothers/families and funded by state governments and the federal government. In California there are currently three different CA state government child-care service programs, all of which offer *free* or reduced-cost child care for poor, working/job-hunting/in-school/ill or disabled single parents: http://www.chs-ca.org/cca.html Here is a US government program that provides child-care services right on campus for women returning to college who are low or very-low income: http://www.govbenefits.gov/govbenefits_en.portal?_nfpb=true & quickSearchPageFlow_\ 1_actionOverride=%2FBenefitsQuickSearchPageFlow%2Freport & _windowLabel=quickSearc\ hPageFlow_1 & quickSearchPageFlow_1bid=896 & _pageLabel=gbcc_page_quicksearch Here is the US gov page for the Head Start and Early Head Start programs for children and pregnant women which includes child care financial assistance; these are administered at the state level: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/acf_services.html#hs Here is a link to a large pdf file of US government agencies and programs providing child care assistance and assistance to families: http://nccic.acf.hhs.gov Here is a link to ChildCaregov, " your official source for all US government child care information " : http://www.childcare.gov/ So if there is anyone currently seeking assistance with child care funding or options, its a place to start. -Annie > > > > I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the idea that leaving children > > under 10 home alone is unsafe. While your childhood sounds horrid, so have > > all of ours been and we can't compare " Oh, my childhood was worse than > > yours because I had to do so and so and you didn't. " It's not like that at > > all. I don't know how old you are, but it doesn't change the fact that > > leaving children unattended before they're mature enough or old enough to be is > > dangerous. And yes, there ARE other options if people investigate them. > > They may not always be desirable options, but leaving a child in free county > > daycare would, in my opinion, be a much better choice than leaving them > > alone. I don't know why you feel it's defendable. It really isn't. I mean, > > I grew up with a single mother who left me with an uncle would sexually > > abused me. Was that her only option? NO! It was not. > > > > > > In a message dated 10/25/2009 8:07:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > kimmie827@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > I want to explain that this thread hit a sore nerve, and why. That same > > feeling of how people who did not have a nada, have their ideas that we should > > forgive and forget, or " its your mother " (I hate that phrase) and we KNOW > > that because these people did not walk in our shoes they can not even begin > > to comprehend what it was like. > > Worse, I find it hurtful and frustrating when people assume they know how > > it was, and compare their childhood to mine, by saying things like " my > > mother hit me a few times " or acting like their mother " had her moments too " . > > We all know one of the frustrating things about BPD, is its not just about > > one incident, but a childhood of not just physical but pyschological abuse, > > and that someone on the outside looking in will never get it. > > > > When things are said like people that can't be responsible for their kids > > shouldnt have them, or there's free childcare available, it floods me with > > the same feeling, ONLY I also grew up in poverty. I've lived in poor, > > welfare neighborhoods, motels and in homeless shelters growing up. I've stolen > > food to eat as a child. And while I don't know your financial situation > > growing up, it sounds as though you have not experienced that kind of dire need > > to survive. And when I hear you pass judgement on a life you don't seem to > > understand it gives me that same feeling as people that think they know > > what living with nada was like. > > > > Also when people who have not walked in our shoes have their " solutions " > > like " just try being nicer to your mother " or " don't bring up subjects that > > start fights " because normal adult children, I'm sure disagree with their > > parents at times, and they just avoid those topics (politics for example). > > What people with normal parent don't understand is it NEVER that simple. > > > > When you say there's free childcare for people who qualify, I get the same > > sick feeling because its NEVER that simple. NEVER. > > > > I hate to compare this to being a KO but thats the only way I can think to > > explain it. Living in poverty is something that you can only understand if > > you've been there. And just as people who say " my mother hit me growing up > > and I'm fine " try to compare their mothers to my nada...it goes the same > > way with people who tell me " oh well we had hand me downs growing up, yeah > > we were poor too. " Ok that's not poor. I shoplifted most of my clothes until > > I was 15 and old enough to get a job and even then, my nada would keep my > > weeks pay anyway, so most of the time I'd work all week (either after > > school ,or days in the summer) and never see a dime. > > So I still shoplifted for school clothes and supplies. And you know what? > > Its actually easier to shoplift from 2nd time around shops than malls and > > department stores. Unfortuanely I was still growing in my teens, so I needed > > larger clothes from time to time. I also have permenantly deformed toes > > from wearing shoes too long as my feet grew. They are pulled in together, and > > they toe nails grow pointing in, like a minor case of chinese foot binding. > > > > I hope I've made this clear. This thread has made me so upset that I'm > > considering taking a break from this site, which I just came back to after a > > break, for personal reasons. I don't come here to hear other think they know > > what other people's lives are like and pass judgement on them. While I > > don't agree with leaving small kids home alone. Obviously, its dangerous, and > > Children's Services would get involved in something like that, this thread > > hit to close to home for me with people who have never walked in other > > people's shoes, making judgements about theit character. Like I said, I've > > shoplifted food and clothing, and more than that. Are you going to judge me as > > a theft? As a horrible person? Or do you take circumstance into > > consideration? > > > > ~Kim > > > > --- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_ > > (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm > > > > > > I can agree with the more choices thing. I don't think it should ever be > > > an option to leave children under 10 home alone under any circumstance. > > It's > > > illegal, unsafe, dangerous and negligent. Our county has free childcare > > for > > > those who qualify. I don't know that it's the most desirable place to > > > leave a child, but it certainly beats leaving them alone. > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 8:54:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > > kimmie827@ kimmie82 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People who shouldn't have kids, have them everyday. If it was as simple > > as > > > people that aren't responsible just shouldn't have kids, I know I > > wouldn't > > > be on this earth. So that's not a solution. Not that we are here to > > solve > > > the ills of the world, but honestly, there's how things should be and > > how > > > they are. Parents, responsible parents, are in need of MORE choices, so > > this > > > type of situation NEVER happens. They are not in need of judgements, > > that > > > do not help them or their children. > > > ~Kim > > > --- In _WTOAdultChildren1@ --- In _WTOAdultChil > > > (mailto:_WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_ > > (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) ) , Hummingbird1298@) > > > > > > > > People who can't watch their kids and be responsible for them > > shouldn't > > > > have them. If that's judgemental, then it is. The welfare of a child > > > comes > > > > first. > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/24/2009 6:33:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > > > xrisacct@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible > > > > parents do > > > > > not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time. > > > > > Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for > > > > > > their kids' > > > > > safety and welfare. > > > > > > > > Where I lived ,there weren't any people willing to watch kids, and the > > > > local tanf people would not pay money to people-they had to go out and > > > get a > > > > job. And no employer ever gave a break at all to any parent if their > > kid > > > was > > > > sick, or in trouble, or alone at home. My cousin lost 4 jobs i none > > year > > > > due to that. It literally was do or die-people lost their kids due to > > > the > > > > fact no one would watch them. Add to that that the local grandparents > > > had the > > > > idea that the kids had to work out problems for themselves, and > > refused > > > to > > > > watch them, and they still can't do anything to make them help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working > > again; > > > > when > > > > > elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school > > > bus > > > > home and > > > > > stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my > > > > Sister's > > > > > age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know > > > > whether my > > > > > nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however. > > > > > > > > But you had someone else willing-the majority of parents nationwide, > > > > according to surveys over and over ,do not. > > > > > > > > You can be as judgmental as you want, but rent is still due at the > > first > > > > week, and if there is no money, there's no place to live. And no one > > to > > > > watch the kids. We watched over a dozen one day, simply because we had > > a > > > > ridiculous amount of food ,were willing ,and the parents were screwed. > > > When cops > > > > and others tried to make trouble, I stood up for the kids and parents, > > > > > and > > > > they backed right down-they weren't used to someone knowing the actual > > > laws > > > > willing to fight back with a better vocabulary than they had, and they > > > > just stood there staring, looking dumbfounded. The heck with them-if > > > it's > > > > surivival, I have stood up for anyone. And despite your judgment, that > > > > > won't > > > > make those people I helped out get a sitter no matter what. I knew > > what > > > to do, > > > > but even with that, only one woman was willing to watch my honey's > > kids, > > > > since the laws changed right after Bush took office, and the 50+ > > people > > > who > > > > were willing, went down to two-and the other just simply said no, > > > > despite being required by law, and there was nothing we could do. > > > > > > > > You sound like my nada-she always said there was a way, but I have > > never > > > > found one, and neither ever did she, for most of the things she > > claimed > > > did > > > > have answers. That's just pure abuse-there are not good solutions for > > > most > > > > problems despite the rhetoric, and until there are, settling for > > second > > > > best is pretty much what most people have to do. Quoting about your > > > nada's > > > > neighbor won't solve that either-we didn't, and neither did most of > > our > > > > neighbors, have anyone to watch the kids. > > > > > > > > If a woman with 2 kids leaves them, and comes home 6 hours later and > > > they > > > > are fine, then she will do it again. She has no other choice in many > > > places > > > > in the U.S. > > > > > > > > At age 11 I was > > > > > considered old enough to participate in supervised after-school > > > > activities then > > > > > walk home and be home alone for a little while until nada returned. > > > > > > > > Where we lived, there are none, and the age of being able to watch > > > onself > > > > was 13. That means if a 12 year old answers the door when a jerk > > > neighbor > > > > calls the cops, then your kids are taken out of the home, and the cops > > > don't > > > > tell you where they are for up to 48 hours. > > > > > > > > It didn't happen to us, as we were fortunate. But it happened to > > enough > > > > people, I stopped being judgmental like you, and realized no amount of > > > > criticism would cause money to appear, and sitters to appear, for > > free, > > > or even > > > > to be available. > > > > > > > > Everyone seems to think working women are " magic " , and can make all > > > that > > > > happen without help or money, and I know better now. There aren't > > > resources > > > > for the majority of Americans anymore, or people helping so those > > > problems > > > > will keep happening. Alternet had an article about one Ohio town where > > > men > > > > drive to, since there are so many lonely teen girls, and they ask men > > on > > > > the street for sex, basically anyone-and it's due to economics and a > > > lack of > > > > things to do. Each and every time the girls were given something to do > > > or > > > > some sort of realistic hope, instead of one of those Women Resource > > > Center > > > > people giving them a feminist lecture ,that stopped too. > > > > > > > > I've been offered sex twice by 11 year old little girls-once at > > Coronado > > > > mall in ABQ, and once in West Virginia. Little girls NEVER asked me > > that > > > in > > > > places that had jobs, or parents around. But that is all dependent on > > > > things beyond any parent's control. We left WV, as we were able to do > > > so. I know > > > > people there now, even if it meant killing someone in cold blood, they > > > > would do it, just for a chance to leave. But money doesn't grow on > > > trees, so > > > > they get stuck there, and have to go thru the above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single > > mom > > > > and had > > > > > to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy > > while > > > > she > > > > > worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when > > that > > > > child was > > > > > little he was never left alone to take care of himself; > > > > > > > > The average work week where we lived was 23 hours, the average pay, > > > about > > > > 6$ an hour. Both parents worked at the employer's whim, otherwise you > > > lost > > > > your job-only took two absences, for any reason ,to be fired. > > > > > > > > So given that rent averaged 500$ a month, how exactly would you work > > > that, > > > > then? Utilities ran $100-400$ a month, too. And don't give me that > > thing > > > > about employer's listening to parents or working with them-I tried > > that, > > > and > > > > so did everyone I knew, and no one ever had an amployer listen ever. > > If > > > > you were called at 2 pm, and told to come to work, you either did it > > or > > > lost > > > > your job. Didn't matter if your kids were 6-8, and came home to an > > empty > > > > house, you still had to go, and the school refused to deliver messages > > > too. > > > > And there was always some neighbor who would call the cops on you, > > > unless > > > > you gave them food, sex, or something else to get them to shut up. My > > > honey > > > > didn't have to do that, since I was there, and really got people like > > > that > > > > into some serious problems with their own employers and the cops. But > > > not > > > > everyone is quick as I am, went to college and took civil rights > > courses > > > ,or > > > > has a 148 IQ, or prior experience with a nada, either. > > > > > > > > she made sure he had > > > > > interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes and > > > > Scouting and > > > > > such when he was older. > > > > > > > > Martial arts courses are 100$ a month where I live, 60$ per person > > where > > > I > > > > used to live, So how ,on the above work schedules and money would you > > do > > > > that? Hmm? You wouldn't. And when the cop showed up as he did with my > > > > cousin, Mr Whitey from Barboursville, and offered to get rid of her > > > problems with > > > > the cops in return for sex, and he told her he had two girls that > > > " looked > > > > like her " , and it was either that or lose them you'd be thinking twice > > > too. > > > > People get pushed into situations like that. They don't choose them. > > And > > > > in some places like where I used to live, that is the only choice > > there > > > is, > > > > at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little > > kids > > > > alone > > > > > > > > You are a pretty self righteous person if after reading the above, you > > > > still think that, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. All your > > > nada-like > > > > judgment is not going to make money appear where it doesn't exist. And > > > that > > > > is now the operative m.o. for most people, most parents, nationwide. > > > > > > > > and > > > > > unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in > > charge > > > > of " a > > > > > younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to > > > " parentify " > > > > a young > > > > > child that way. > > > > > > > > Well, when the 9$ an hour cps person shows up, you can explain to her > > > why > > > > the kids are alone , and how there isn't any money. I'm sure that will > > > > > make > > > > you feel good and self righteous to put someone down like that, as > > their > > > > kids get taken away. I saw that happen, which is why even now I will > > not > > > > report people to cps. They didn't do anything but terrorize anyone > > > anyway. > > > > Only one person listened, and she helped us out, AND was made head of > > > the > > > > local cps unit right afterwards too. But for the other people, who > > don't > > > know > > > > what to do, your judgment won't help them one bit. > > > > > > > > Women like that need help, not judgment. As the Bible says, mercy > > > triumphs > > > > over judgment. I saw what I saw, including blacks getting beat up and > > > > threatened by cops for no reason ,and I will die a liberal due to > > that. > > > I was a > > > > white separatist at that time too. But I know better now, and know > > > people > > > > are just people. They get into situations they can't help. Blacks were > > > > doing nothing where I lived, and I watched a white cop throw one kid > > > down, draw > > > > a gun, and point it in his face. His anger grew (the kid's), and he > > > > started going after people for it. Displaced, repressed anger. He did > > > NOT deserve > > > > that, and no one, not even the TV stations, would do anything about > > it. > > > > But no one needs some judgmental jerk like yourself putting them down, > > > just > > > > because you think that since your mother got help from someone ,there > > > are > > > > other people out there who will on command too. I know better. I will > > > NEVER > > > > judge a woman raising kids for being stressed out ever again, no > > > > matter what. I have seen women get forced by cops into sex, and > > > > threatened, and no one, not even those stupid Women's Resource > > Center's > > > people and > > > > such help them out. I helped them out, cuz I realized enough when I > > was > > > a kid > > > > what it was like to be judged beyond belief, and will NEVER put > > another > > > > person down for that kind of hopeless hell or their inability to get > > > what they > > > > need, ever again. NEVER. I learned something about that, and that was > > my > > > > nada was profoundly wrong to judge people in that way. Instead, I will > > > > > just > > > > help them as I have always done. > > > > > > > > Being a light in the darkness is much more helpful than being the > > > darkness > > > > holding a bucket of water for the candle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 The fact is we weren't poor and my mom wasn't leaving the house to work. We didn't have a lot of money, but we weren't poor either. It wasn't about necessity--she could have taken us with her wherever it was she was going. This was a matter of preference and convenience and perhaps also that she had a distorted idea of child development and thought my sister could handle a lot more than is really normal or healthy for a child that age to try to manage. It's a recurrent theme on here--bpds often feel unable to manage their own responsibilities and find ways of giving those responsibilities to others who could not or should not be responsible for those things. Nothing very seriously bad ever happened during those times we were alone, but the effect was that we had no real childhood. We had to behave like adults and to make adult decisions. Ashana Add whatever you love to the Yahoo! India homepage. Try now! http://in.yahoo.com/trynew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 , I'm so glad you posted this. Your memory is amazing, for such a young age. When I was about 20, I was still living with my parents. My mother sat for a relative who was probably about the age you are when he locked the door to the spare bedroom. I remember how angry my mother got, and I knew, even then, that although he could conceivably get hurt in that room by himself, that her anger was mainly about a loss of control. In the end, he finally unlocked it, and his reward for that was an instant, rage-filled, vindictive beating. My poor relative didn't know my mother well enough to know that this would be the result of him doing that. He did not know enough to fear her. Seeing my mother with another child really began to open my eyes to the inappropriateness of her actions. Your description was so good - you really have a gift for writing. -Deanna > > > > > > Ashana, > > > > > > Well, I'm not sure about this one. Yes, you should have been supervised but > > > as a mom of 3, my kids have done some really weird things sometimes. Not > > > to that extreme...but my son, when he was 2 (he's 7 now), was supposed to be > > > napping and instead got into the bathroom cabinet and poured baby powder > > > all into the Xbox, the floor, the bed, HIMSELF, the tub, the sink...all > > > before I realized he was up. He also once escaped out the front door and had > > > to be gone at least 10 minutes (again, supposed to be napping) before I > > > realized it. We promptly installed an alarm that dings if the door opens, but > > > it could have been disasterous. My daughter (who has safely made it to 9 > > > years old, lol) once got into the finger nail polish and painted her bedspread > > > and the wall (and herself) before I walked down the hall and smelled it. > > > She could just have easily poured it into her eyes or drank it and I am so > > > thankful I caught her. > > > > > > So.... > > > do I think a 3 year being outside with scissors is dangerous? > > > Absolutely...but it happens. I once drank cleaner that was left on a bathroom counter > > > at about 3. I also cut all the hair off our dog's tail once at about 5. > > > > > > With that said, with BPD parents, it's never that ONE incident that makes > > > things so bad, but the totality of the incidents all put together. I think > > > if it's an issue for you and something that bothers you, then that's what > > > matters. Accidents happen if you have kids -- they just do. Most are > > > probably, in hindsight, preventable, but they still happen. My questions would > > > be, how long were you left alone? did your mother know you had the scissors > > > and was too involved with herself to care? do YOU feel like maybe it was > > > neglect? If so, then I would say maybe there was more to the story. You > > > didn't talk or eat for an undetermined amount of time after that -- that could > > > be because of HER reaction and how it made you feel for accidentally cutting > > > the cat. > > > > > > Just my .02. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/18/2009 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > > > ashanamax@ writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been thinking about some of the things I did when I was small that I > > > felt very bad about as a child. When I was about 3, I once got it into my > > > head to cut my cat's fur. Not having such great hand-eye coordination, I > > > cut into his skin and the cat had to have stitches. I was horrified. From > > > what my mother has told me, I wouldn't eat for a while after that, I > > > wouldn't talk (whether she meant for hours or days, I don't know and I'm not > > > about to break nc and ask her). But I believe her. > > > > > > Anyway, it occurred to me that you don't just leave 3-year-olds > > > unsupervised like that. The scissors were in a drawer in the kitchen I could reach. > > > I cut the cat outside on the back porch, which was also where the unlocked > > > door to the garage was located. There were all manner of things in the > > > garage I could have gotten into--my dad's tools (saws and other shop > > > objects), poisonous liquids that may or may not have had childproof lids, the > > > washer and dryer (which children periodically seem to climb into, turn on, and > > > then die). Most things up were up out of immediate reach, but I was > > > completely capable of climbing up to get them if I really wanted to. > > > > > > Am I right in thinking that my parents should have been watching me? That > > > you just don't let toddlers run around completely unwatched like that? I > > > don't have children, but my niece is nearly the same age now as I was then, > > > and I know if it were me that I would not feel right at all if I knew > > > there were dangerous things around that she could get into if I couldn't see > > > her. > > > > > > Ashana > > > > > > Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. > > > _http://in.overview.http://in.ohttp://in._ > > > (http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos) > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Ashana - I'm just getting back online this morning, so if this subject has been covered in detail I apologize in advance - Letting kids older than 3 play in the back yard while parent is awake, alert, and checking out the window every few minutes (and on alert for sudden screams, as well as prolonged silence) - that's OK. Taking a nap while kids younger than about 7 are awake and unsupervised - NOT OK. Letting a 6-year-old look after a sibling older than about 2, while mom fixes lunch in another part of the house, all the while listening for aforementioned screams/silence - OK. Putting a 6-year-old in charge of younger sibs for long periods of time OR with parent absent - NOT OK. Basically, I think competent parents are sort of " peripherally aware " of where their kids are just about all the time when they're very young - with occasional lapses, for which we have to forgive ourselves and keep trying to do the best we can. And we have to come up with creative ways to keep kids productively busy and within view or earshot while we try to get everything else done. It's all part of the challenge. - > > Thank you to those of you who responded to this. > > I don't think my nada knew I had the scissors. I actually feel pretty sure she had no idea where I was and that she probably hadn't seen me for quite some time. > > The thing is that I remember being left unsupervised to play on a regular basis. It was a completely normal occurence. I don't mean being allowed to play in a place my parents could see or that was in earshot and then wandering off too far when they weren't looking. I mean being in the far side of the back yard behind the house while my mother was on the second floor of the house sound asleep. It never really occurred to me that that might not be normal, because her absence was so much like my salvation. I don't have kids, so I don't have that sense of what I would let my kids do as a comparison. > > This was often with my sister--I wasn't usually alone (although I was alone when I cut the cat). But a six-year-old hardly makes an adequate babysitter. > > It's not so much that I was really ever hurt badly by this, for the most part (there was the time I was barefoot and stepped on the nails protruding from a fallen fence paling when I was about four). It's just they seem indicative of my nada's general behavior--that I was essentially left without adult protection or support and expected to be able to care for myself at a very young age. > > I don't remember how my mother responded to the cat being cut. I know we took him to the vet and he had stitches. What frightened me wasn't so much her reaction. I was frightened of looking at the inside of a living creature and having no one there to tell me that he was going to be okay, that cats generally live through getting holes cut into their tummies by small children. > > , I'm glad you posted what you did. Even though your nada was so much more malicious and so much sicker than mine, I can really relate to a lot of what you say. What stands out to me this time is that you were frightened, too, and your nada could not or would not provide you with any comfort or reassurance. Instead, she handed over to you all responsibility for what had happened. Her own inadequacy as a parent--whether real or imagined--was projected onto you. She didn't need to be a better parent (in her eyes); you needed to be a better kid. > > I think that was more or less my nada's solution. > > The other thing that is interesting reading about these posts is that after these kinds of near-misses, parents generally seem to do something to prevent it from happening again if they can. In my case, nothing happened. The scissors remained in the same drawer. I continued to be left alone to play. > > In fact, my mother often left my sister and I alone at home while she ran errands when we were a bit older. So I guess that's another qustion. Would you leave a six and eight year old at home alone for a few hours? > > Thanks, > Ashana > > > Keep up with people you care about with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how. http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/connectmore > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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