Re: nada negligence

October 24, 2009

I totally agree. Too many things can happen in just a few minutes and kids

cannot be trusted at that age. Kids will be kids and can only make age

appropriate choices. They can be manipulated into opening the door for a

stranger, tempted to try to cook or do any number of unsafe things.

In a message dated 10/24/2009 4:17:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible

parents do not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time.

Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for their

kids' safety and welfare.

When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again;

when elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school bus

home and stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near

my Sister's age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't

know whether my nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however. At

age 11 I was considered old enough to participate in supervised

after-school activities then walk home and be home alone for a little while

until

nada returned.

When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single mom and

had to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy while

she worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when that

child was little he was never left alone to take care of himself; she made

sure he had interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes

and Scouting and such when he was older.

Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little kids

alone and unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in charge

of " a younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to

" parentify " a young child that way.

-Annie

>

> > I don't have kids either but the idea of leaving a six and eight year

old

> > home alone together,even for a half an hour,is inconceivable to me.

>

> Unless you are independently wealthy, that is a fact of life for most

parents now. Most families don't have the support and organization members of

groups like the mormons do.

>

October 24, 2009

And I wanted to say I totally agree with the last part too. Older kids do

not substitute as adults. As we can see by recent kidnappings, there are

sickos out there ready to prey on children left alone. I don't even let my

kids go to the mailbox without me watching them.

In a message dated 10/24/2009 4:17:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible

parents do not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time.

Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for their

kids' safety and welfare.

When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again;

when elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school bus

home and stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near

my Sister's age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't

know whether my nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however. At

age 11 I was considered old enough to participate in supervised

after-school activities then walk home and be home alone for a little while

until

nada returned.

When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single mom and

had to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy while

she worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when that

child was little he was never left alone to take care of himself; she made

sure he had interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes

and Scouting and such when he was older.

Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little kids

alone and unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in charge

of " a younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to

" parentify " a young child that way.

-Annie

>

> > I don't have kids either but the idea of leaving a six and eight year

old

> > home alone together,even for a half an hour,is inconceivable to me.

>

> Unless you are independently wealthy, that is a fact of life for most

parents now. Most families don't have the support and organization members of

groups like the mormons do.

>

October 24, 2009

Thanks, Heidi. It was a long time ago and the cat was fine in the end, so I

have, but it makes me think.

When your parents don't provide guidance or boundaries or even supervision, you

make a lot of mistakes in life. It's natural to you assume these are your fault

and that they have something to do with your own inadequacy. It's not likely to

occur to you that the problem is really you were given too much responsibility

that you were developmentally unprepared for.

Best,

Ashana

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October 24, 2009

,

Thank you so much for your post, for taking the time and for your compassion.

I think after I cut the cat, I mostly felt numb, and underneath that, I think I

was terrified. I did not know what kinds of things can kill someone, but I

understood that living creatures can die. I had been to one or two funerals by

then, and I understood that certain things can happen that will make you lie

down and close your eyes and that after that you won't ever open them again.

I also knew that my own cuts and scratches healed, but I don't think I connected

that to the deep cut I saw in my cat--which exposed his fat in a way that just

did not seem right at all to me. I don't think I knew that even deep cuts like

that can be closed up and that they can heal.

I have no idea what my mom did or said after it happened. I don't think she

said anything very important. I think it is what she did not say that made a

difference.

Best,

Ashana

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October 24, 2009

At 11:42 PM 10/23/2009 W. A. Max wrote:

>In fact, my mother often left my sister and I alone at home

>while she ran errands when we were a bit older. So I guess

>that's another qustion. Would you leave a six and eight year

>old at home alone for a few hours?

Leaving an eight-year-old home alone for short (and by short I

mean 15-30 minutes, not a few hours) might be okay if the

eight-year-old in question is unusually mature and well-behaved

for that age, and there is a trusted adult close at hand in case

of trouble, but I can't imagine leaving an eight-year-old and a

six-year-old home alone together for any length of time. It is

wrong to expect the older of those children to be responsible

for the younger one and two young children are more likely to

get into trouble than one alone and even the older child alone

shouldn't be expected to stay home alone for any longer period.

There is just too much that can go wrong.

My nada started leaving my half-sister home alone at night while

she went to work when my sister was 5. She lived in a condo at

the time and said the guy who lived in the next condo was there

to deal with anything that went wrong. Their condos shared a

wall on one side and their doors were a couple feet apart, so he

really was close but I can't begin to understand how my nada

thought that was good enough. How is a man sleeping in the next

apartment going to know if something is wrong? I was very

tempted to call children's services about that, but the idea of

my sister being sent to live with her father didn't seem like it

would improve the situation. Her father's problems are

different, but I wouldn't call him mentally healthy either.

Instead, I eventually convinced nada to move to the city where I

live. I didn't and still don't want her here, but I couldn't

stand the idea of my sister growing up with no reasonable adults

nearby. Now my sister has grown up and wants nothing to do with

nada and nada claims that she doesn't understand why.

--

Katrina

October 24, 2009

I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible parents do

not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time.

Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for their kids'

safety and welfare.

When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again; when

elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school bus home and

stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my Sister's

age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know whether my

nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however. At age 11 I was

considered old enough to participate in supervised after-school activities then

walk home and be home alone for a little while until nada returned.

When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single mom and had

to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy while she

worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when that child was

little he was never left alone to take care of himself; she made sure he had

interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes and Scouting and

such when he was older.

Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little kids alone and

unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in charge of " a

younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to " parentify " a young

child that way.

-Annie

>

> > I don't have kids either but the idea of leaving a six and eight year

old

> > home alone together,even for a half an hour,is inconceivable to me.

>

> Unless you are independently wealthy, that is a fact of life for most parents

now. Most families don't have the support and organization members of groups

like the mormons do.

>

October 24, 2009

People who can't watch their kids and be responsible for them shouldn't

have them. If that's judgemental, then it is. The welfare of a child comes

first.

In a message dated 10/24/2009 6:33:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

xrisacct@... writes:

>

> I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible

parents do

> not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time.

> Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for

their kids'

> safety and welfare.

Where I lived ,there weren't any people willing to watch kids, and the

local tanf people would not pay money to people-they had to go out and get a

job. And no employer ever gave a break at all to any parent if their kid was

sick, or in trouble, or alone at home. My cousin lost 4 jobs i none year

due to that. It literally was do or die-people lost their kids due to the

fact no one would watch them. Add to that that the local grandparents had the

idea that the kids had to work out problems for themselves, and refused to

watch them, and they still can't do anything to make them help.

>

> When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again;

when

> elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school bus

home and

> stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my

Sister's

> age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know

whether my

> nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however.

But you had someone else willing-the majority of parents nationwide,

according to surveys over and over ,do not.

You can be as judgmental as you want, but rent is still due at the first

week, and if there is no money, there's no place to live. And no one to

watch the kids. We watched over a dozen one day, simply because we had a

ridiculous amount of food ,were willing ,and the parents were screwed. When

cops

and others tried to make trouble, I stood up for the kids and parents, and

they backed right down-they weren't used to someone knowing the actual laws

willing to fight back with a better vocabulary than they had, and they

just stood there staring, looking dumbfounded. The heck with them-if it's

surivival, I have stood up for anyone. And despite your judgment, that won't

make those people I helped out get a sitter no matter what. I knew what to do,

but even with that, only one woman was willing to watch my honey's kids,

since the laws changed right after Bush took office, and the 50+ people who

were willing, went down to two-and the other just simply said no,

despite being required by law, and there was nothing we could do.

You sound like my nada-she always said there was a way, but I have never

found one, and neither ever did she, for most of the things she claimed did

have answers. That's just pure abuse-there are not good solutions for most

problems despite the rhetoric, and until there are, settling for second

best is pretty much what most people have to do. Quoting about your nada's

neighbor won't solve that either-we didn't, and neither did most of our

neighbors, have anyone to watch the kids.

If a woman with 2 kids leaves them, and comes home 6 hours later and they

are fine, then she will do it again. She has no other choice in many places

in the U.S.

At age 11 I was

> considered old enough to participate in supervised after-school

activities then

> walk home and be home alone for a little while until nada returned.

Where we lived, there are none, and the age of being able to watch onself

was 13. That means if a 12 year old answers the door when a jerk neighbor

calls the cops, then your kids are taken out of the home, and the cops don't

tell you where they are for up to 48 hours.

It didn't happen to us, as we were fortunate. But it happened to enough

people, I stopped being judgmental like you, and realized no amount of

criticism would cause money to appear, and sitters to appear, for free, or even

to be available.

Everyone seems to think working women are " magic " , and can make all that

happen without help or money, and I know better now. There aren't resources

for the majority of Americans anymore, or people helping so those problems

will keep happening. Alternet had an article about one Ohio town where men

drive to, since there are so many lonely teen girls, and they ask men on

the street for sex, basically anyone-and it's due to economics and a lack of

things to do. Each and every time the girls were given something to do or

some sort of realistic hope, instead of one of those Women Resource Center

people giving them a feminist lecture ,that stopped too.

I've been offered sex twice by 11 year old little girls-once at Coronado

mall in ABQ, and once in West Virginia. Little girls NEVER asked me that in

places that had jobs, or parents around. But that is all dependent on

things beyond any parent's control. We left WV, as we were able to do so. I

know

people there now, even if it meant killing someone in cold blood, they

would do it, just for a chance to leave. But money doesn't grow on trees, so

they get stuck there, and have to go thru the above.

>

> When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single mom

and had

> to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy while

she

> worked. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when that

child was

> little he was never left alone to take care of himself;

The average work week where we lived was 23 hours, the average pay, about

6$ an hour. Both parents worked at the employer's whim, otherwise you lost

your job-only took two absences, for any reason ,to be fired.

So given that rent averaged 500$ a month, how exactly would you work that,

then? Utilities ran $100-400$ a month, too. And don't give me that thing

about employer's listening to parents or working with them-I tried that, and

so did everyone I knew, and no one ever had an amployer listen ever. If

you were called at 2 pm, and told to come to work, you either did it or lost

your job. Didn't matter if your kids were 6-8, and came home to an empty

house, you still had to go, and the school refused to deliver messages too.

And there was always some neighbor who would call the cops on you, unless

you gave them food, sex, or something else to get them to shut up. My honey

didn't have to do that, since I was there, and really got people like that

into some serious problems with their own employers and the cops. But not

everyone is quick as I am, went to college and took civil rights courses ,or

has a 148 IQ, or prior experience with a nada, either.

she made sure he had

> interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes and

Scouting and

> such when he was older.

Martial arts courses are 100$ a month where I live, 60$ per person where I

used to live, So how ,on the above work schedules and money would you do

that? Hmm? You wouldn't. And when the cop showed up as he did with my

cousin, Mr Whitey from Barboursville, and offered to get rid of her problems

with

the cops in return for sex, and he told her he had two girls that " looked

like her " , and it was either that or lose them you'd be thinking twice too.

People get pushed into situations like that. They don't choose them. And

in some places like where I used to live, that is the only choice there is,

at all.

>

> Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little kids

alone

You are a pretty self righteous person if after reading the above, you

still think that, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. All your nada-like

judgment is not going to make money appear where it doesn't exist. And that

is now the operative m.o. for most people, most parents, nationwide.

and

> unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in charge

of " a

> younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to " parentify "

a young

> child that way.

Well, when the 9$ an hour cps person shows up, you can explain to her why

the kids are alone , and how there isn't any money. I'm sure that will make

you feel good and self righteous to put someone down like that, as their

kids get taken away. I saw that happen, which is why even now I will not

report people to cps. They didn't do anything but terrorize anyone anyway.

Only one person listened, and she helped us out, AND was made head of the

local cps unit right afterwards too. But for the other people, who don't know

what to do, your judgment won't help them one bit.

Women like that need help, not judgment. As the Bible says, mercy triumphs

over judgment. I saw what I saw, including blacks getting beat up and

threatened by cops for no reason ,and I will die a liberal due to that. I was a

white separatist at that time too. But I know better now, and know people

are just people. They get into situations they can't help. Blacks were

doing nothing where I lived, and I watched a white cop throw one kid down, draw

a gun, and point it in his face. His anger grew (the kid's), and he

started going after people for it. Displaced, repressed anger. He did NOT

deserve

that, and no one, not even the TV stations, would do anything about it.

But no one needs some judgmental jerk like yourself putting them down, just

because you think that since your mother got help from someone ,there are

other people out there who will on command too. I know better. I will NEVER

judge a woman raising kids for being stressed out ever again, no

matter what. I have seen women get forced by cops into sex, and

threatened, and no one, not even those stupid Women's Resource Center's people

and

such help them out. I helped them out, cuz I realized enough when I was a kid

what it was like to be judged beyond belief, and will NEVER put another

person down for that kind of hopeless hell or their inability to get what they

need, ever again. NEVER. I learned something about that, and that was my

nada was profoundly wrong to judge people in that way. Instead, I will just

help them as I have always done.

Being a light in the darkness is much more helpful than being the darkness

holding a bucket of water for the candle.

October 24, 2009

my husband was left alone in the care of his two older sisters who did

drugs and drank from the time they were 11...yep....11! It was a crazy

situation. He can remember no food to eat and even had the police ask him if he

was a missing child from a milk carton. He had a very neglectful childhood and

his mother is severely BPD. I am all for sympathizing with those who are

less fortunate but the child(s) needs must come first and their safety and

wellbeing while mom is at work is JUST AS if not more important than having

a roof over their head.

In a message dated 10/24/2009 7:46:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

darrowby385@... writes:

This is not an issue that can be broad brushed on either side of the

debate. Good points have been made about the difficulties, especially in the

U.S., for finding good childcare when you have a low income, and the horrible

dilemmas that many good-hearted low income parents are forced to make.

But that does not negate the fact that leaving small children alone is not

in the child's best interest, and can amount to neglect.

There are abusive and neglectful parents on both ends of the financial

spectrum, and all points in between, just as there are caring and responsible

ones. The good parents with low income have it a lot tougher.

I've been a welfare mom, with four small children, and have pretty much

seen it all. Some parents are so beaten down by poverty that they do things

that go against their basic values, like leaving their children home alone.

Others are abusive and neglectful. One of the most depressing places on

earth is the county welfare waiting room.

My husband was left alone for long hours, in charge of his younger sister

from the age of six. It was very frightening for him at times, and he still

has emotional scars from the experience. A six year old doesn't have the

cognitive ability to process a situation like that, and just feels the basic

emotions of fear and loneliness. In my husband's case, his mother was

leaving her children home because she went to the bars after work, but the

effect would be the same no matter how legitimate the parent's situation.

I also want to add that it would be nice if we had an agreement that even

if we disagree, that telling someone " you sound just like my nada " is

hitting below the belt. That's about the worst insult I can think of, and none

of the good people on this board deserve to be disrespected like that.

It's possible to disagree and remain polite.

Kate

>

> > I don't think there is any excuse in the book for leaving children

alone at

> > 8 and 6. Even poor people can make better choices than to leave their

kids

> > alone.

>

> That's a judgment, I lived the facts. Fact is, there is not.

>

October 24, 2009

Yes,and being poor does not equate to being irresponsible in regards to

arranging childcare for your children.Working parents find the best childcare

they can afford.The availability of reasonably priced,decent childcare is a huge

issue for many families but I seriously doubt that most of them are just

throwing up their hands and resorting to leaving their kids unattended.

>

> I don't think there is any excuse in the book for leaving children alone at

> 8 and 6. Even poor people can make better choices than to leave their kids

> alone.

>

> In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:22:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> xrisacct@... writes:

>

> > I don't have kids either but the idea of leaving a six and eight year

> old

> > home alone together,even for a half an hour,is inconceivable to me.

>

> Unless you are independently wealthy, that is a fact of life for most

> parents now. Most families don't have the support and organization members of

> groups like the mormons do.

>

October 24, 2009

Xrisa, I just want to offer you some support. I too grew up in a very poor

neighborhood and while I'm sure not ever mother was a nada, it was very common

for teens to be left home with baby's for days (as the mother may have had 2 or

3 jobs) and young kids to be left home alone. My nada worked over night (when

she was working) and left me 11 years old, home with my 4 year old brother, and

I was one of the fortunate ones, meaning to have the older child be 11 and not

8, that made us lucky.

Whether or not I think its safe, I agree that people that grow up with money do

not understand when there is no other options if you want to keep a roof over

your head and food in your kids mouth.

I think the difference between a parent with no choice and a nada, is the parent

with no choice KNOWS what they are doing is wrong and wishes they had another

option, and does try to find other options because they hate leaving their kids

home alone. Where a nada does not see anything wrong with it.

Its funny you said most of the jobs were nursing, because that is one of the

reasons I became a nurse, because of the job security. I did everything in my

power to get out of that life I was born into, but I'll never forget where I

came from.

~Kim

>

> > And I wanted to say I totally agree with the last part too. Older kids do

> > not substitute as adults. As we can see by recent kidnappings, there are

> > sickos out there ready to prey on children left alone. I don't even let my

> > kids go to the mailbox without me watching them.

>

> Then that is because you have money ,and the choices that go with that. Where

I used to live ,there were no choices like that, and no money at all. A 4

bedroom house in good condition went thru 4 owners in one year, and that was at

a price of $20k. I figured at 7%, for 20 years ,that was 89$ a month. That was

still too expensive for most people.

>

> One neighbor with a really beautiful daughter going to the local university,

traded sex with her and her daughter, in exchange for car payments for her car

and the daughter's car. No buses and no way to get home for the classes the

daughter took. I don't thin kit is right, but I have no way of fixing something

like that. No jobs, except nursing, and no way to get that job, unless you get a

way to take the ridiculously scheduled courses, some going to ten at night. You

have to walk thru a part of town with hookers and murdering thieves and other

people. Even withguns on their hips, people were still raped and murdered there.

>

October 24, 2009

I agree with both of you because I am in this situation. I would NEVER under ANY

circumstances leave my son alone for ANY period of time but I am very close to

losing my job because I missed too many days of work. I got sick and missed a

day, my son got sick and missed 2 days, then a baby sitter canceled on me due to

her illness and I could not find a back-up sitter, then another baby sitter

canceled on me. If I miss ONE more day then I get a week off without pay. If I

miss another day after that then I am fired. There is NO sympathy for a single

parent, they treat me like I am one of the college kids that just calls out to

party. I have been cut down to 15 work hours as punishment for missing days and

because I am missing a day this week and next due to court issues in a battle to

protect my son from his highly abusive, mentally ill dad. I simply cannot win.

Yes, we are still expected to be there for our kids but if I wind up homeless

due to no reliable

sitter (the ones that advertise want to charge as much as I earn!) then my

standing in this court battle would be weakened. They might actually favor an

abusive dad to a homeless mom. So, I cannot stay home sick or miss work for any

reason. My son cannot stay home sick or for any reason. I am in the USA and I am

in this situation. This is one of the reasons that low-income people stay in

abusive relationships, because the financial situation is nearly impossible. I

am an educated woman too but PDex tore me down so badly that I could not finish

my bachelors degree, I maxed out my student loans because he would not work more

than part time and he went a year without working at all, so I cannot afford to

go back to school to get my life back where it was before the abuse. We need a

better safety-net for abused parents and for single parents in general so the

kids don't lose out due to their parents financial situation.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sat, October 24, 2009 7:05:19 PM

Subject: Re: nada negligence

Sorry, but I have a different opinion than you do and I think its selfish and

narcissistic and irresponsible to leave small children alone for hours

unsupervised. An intelligent and thoughtful parent would make some kind of

plans with co-workers, relatives or neighbors to have their kids safely watched.

It ought to be obvious that its irresponsible and considered to be neglect,

because Childrens Services will remove children from parents who do that.

-Annie

>

> >

> > I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible parents

do

> > not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time.

> > Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for their

kids'

> > safety and welfare.

>

> Where I lived ,there weren't any people willing to watch kids, and the local

tanf people would not pay money to people-they had to go out and get a job. And

no employer ever gave a break at all to any parent if their kid was sick, or in

trouble, or alone at home. My cousin lost 4 jobs i none year due to that. It

literally was do or die-people lost their kids due to the fact no one would

watch them. Add to that that the local grandparents had the idea that the kids

had to work out problems for themselves, and refused to watch them, and they

still can't do anything to make them help.

>

> >

> > When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again; when

> > elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school bus home

and

> > stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my

Sister's

> > age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know whether

my

> > nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however.

>

> But you had someone else willing-the majority of parents nationwide, according

to surveys over and over ,do not.

>

> You can be as judgmental as you want, but rent is still due at the first week,

and if there is no money, there's no place to live. And no one to watch the

kids. We watched over a dozen one day, simply because we had a ridiculous

amount of food ,were willing ,and the parents were screwed. When cops and others

tried to make trouble, I stood up for the kids and parents, and they backed

right down-they weren't used to someone knowing the actual laws willing to fight

back with a better vocabulary than they had, and they just stood there staring,

looking dumbfounded. The heck with them-if it's surivival, I have stood up for

anyone. And despite your judgment, that won't make those people I helped out get

a sitter no matter what. I knew what to do, but even with that, only one woman

was willing to watch my honey's kids, since the laws changed right after Bush

took office, and the 50+ people who were willing, went down to two-and the other

just simply said no,

> despite being required by law, and there was nothing we could do.

>

> You sound like my nada-she always said there was a way, but I have never found

one, and neither ever did she, for most of the things she claimed did have

answers. That's just pure abuse-there are not good solutions for most problems

despite the rhetoric, and until there are, settling for second best is pretty

much what most people have to do. Quoting about your nada's neighbor won't solve

that either-we didn't, and neither did most of our neighbors, have anyone to

watch the kids.

>

> If a woman with 2 kids leaves them, and comes home 6 hours later and they are

fine, then she will do it again. She has no other choice in many places in the

U.S.

>

> At age 11 I was

> > considered old enough to participate in supervised after-school activities

then

> > walk home and be home alone for a little while until nada returned.

>

> Where we lived, there are none, and the age of being able to watch onself was

13. That means if a 12 year old answers the door when a jerk neighbor calls the

cops, then your kids are taken out of the home, and the cops don't tell you

where they are for up to 48 hours.

>

> It didn't happen to us, as we were fortunate. But it happened to enough

people, I stopped being judgmental like you, and realized no amount of criticism

would cause money to appear, and sitters to appear, for free, or even to be

available.

>

> Everyone seems to think working women are " magic " , and can make all that

happen without help or money, and I know better now. There aren't resources for

the majority of Americans anymore, or people helping so those problems will keep

happening. Alternet had an article about one Ohio town where men drive to, since

there are so many lonely teen girls, and they ask men on the street for sex,

basically anyone-and it's due to economics and a lack of things to do. Each and

every time the girls were given something to do or some sort of realistic hope,

instead of one of those Women Resource Center people giving them a feminist

lecture ,that stopped too.

>

> I've been offered sex twice by 11 year old little girls-once at Coronado mall

in ABQ, and once in West Virginia. Little girls NEVER asked me that in places

that had jobs, or parents around. But that is all dependent on things beyond any

parent's control. We left WV, as we were able to do so. I know people there now,

even if it meant killing someone in cold blood, they would do it, just for a

chance to leave. But money doesn't grow on trees, so they get stuck there, and

have to go thru the above.

>

> >

> > When my Sister became an adult and had her child, she was a single mom and

had

> > to rely on housekeepers and daycare and sitters to watch her boy while she

> > worked.. They didn't have a lot of material possessions, but when that child

was

> > little he was never left alone to take care of himself;

>

> The average work week where we lived was 23 hours, the average pay, about 6$

an hour. Both parents worked at the employer's whim, otherwise you lost your

job-only took two absences, for any reason ,to be fired.

>

> So given that rent averaged 500$ a month, how exactly would you work that,

then? Utilities ran $100-400$ a month, too. And don't give me that thing about

employer's listening to parents or working with them-I tried that, and so did

everyone I knew, and no one ever had an amployer listen ever. If you were called

at 2 pm, and told to come to work, you either did it or lost your job.. Didn't

matter if your kids were 6-8, and came home to an empty house, you still had to

go, and the school refused to deliver messages too. And there was always some

neighbor who would call the cops on you, unless you gave them food, sex, or

something else to get them to shut up. My honey didn't have to do that, since I

was there, and really got people like that into some serious problems with their

own employers and the cops. But not everyone is quick as I am, went to college

and took civil rights courses ,or has a 148 IQ, or prior experience with a nada,

either.

>

> she made sure he had

> > interesting after-school activities like martial arts classes and Scouting

and

> > such when he was older.

>

> Martial arts courses are 100$ a month where I live, 60$ per person where I

used to live, So how ,on the above work schedules and money would you do that?

Hmm? You wouldn't. And when the cop showed up as he did with my cousin, Mr

Whitey from Barboursville, and offered to get rid of her problems with the cops

in return for sex, and he told her he had two girls that " looked like her " , and

it was either that or lose them you'd be thinking twice too. People get pushed

into situations like that. They don't choose them. And in some places like where

I used to live, that is the only choice there is, at all.

>

> >

> > Its just irresponsible, selfish and narcissistic to leave little kids alone

>

> You are a pretty self righteous person if after reading the above, you still

think that, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. All your nada-like judgment

is not going to make money appear where it doesn't exist. And that is now the

operative m.o. for most people, most parents, nationwide.

>

> and

> > unsupervised for hours at a time or to leave an 8 year old " in charge of " a

> > younger child or children; in fact its considered abusive to " parentify " a

young

> > child that way.

>

> Well, when the 9$ an hour cps person shows up, you can explain to her why the

kids are alone , and how there isn't any money. I'm sure that will make you feel

good and self righteous to put someone down like that, as their kids get taken

away. I saw that happen, which is why even now I will not report people to cps.

They didn't do anything but terrorize anyone anyway. Only one person listened,

and she helped us out, AND was made head of the local cps unit right afterwards

too. But for the other people, who don't know what to do, your judgment won't

help them one bit.

>

> Women like that need help, not judgment. As the Bible says, mercy triumphs

over judgment. I saw what I saw, including blacks getting beat up and threatened

by cops for no reason ,and I will die a liberal due to that. I was a white

separatist at that time too. But I know better now, and know people are just

people. They get into situations they can't help. Blacks were doing nothing

where I lived, and I watched a white cop throw one kid down, draw a gun, and

point it in his face. His anger grew (the kid's), and he started going after

people for it. Displaced, repressed anger. He did NOT deserve that, and no one,

not even the TV stations, would do anything about it. But no one needs some

judgmental jerk like yourself putting them down, just because you think that

since your mother got help from someone ,there are other people out there who

will on command too. I know better. I will NEVER judge a woman raising kids for

being stressed out ever again, no

> matter what. I have seen women get forced by cops into sex, and threatened,

and no one, not even those stupid Women's Resource Center's people and such help

them out. I helped them out, cuz I realized enough when I was a kid what it was

like to be judged beyond belief, and will NEVER put another person down for that

kind of hopeless hell or their inability to get what they need, ever again.

NEVER. I learned something about that, and that was my nada was profoundly wrong

to judge people in that way. Instead, I will just help them as I have always

done.

>

> Being a light in the darkness is much more helpful than being the darkness

holding a bucket of water for the candle.

>

October 24, 2009

Daycares are only opening during the day. Many parents (most of which where I

grew up) were single and held evening or part time night work too. As for a

private sitter, it was often safer to leave the kids home alone and NOT tell

anyone that your kids were unsupervised then to take your chances with what kind

of people in the neighborhood wouls be available to watch your kids. Many of my

neighbors were not the kind of people you'd want to leave your kids with and

even if you could find someone, then a parent that can barley afford things as

it is, is making $7 or $8 an hour (less when I was a kid) and paying a sitter

what? I don't think a sitter will take less than $7-10 an hour. I'm not saying

its right, or that I would do it, which is why I did not have any children until

I had a career, but this is how life was for many people, and probably still is.

~Kim

> >

> > I don't think there is any excuse in the book for leaving children alone at

> > 8 and 6. Even poor people can make better choices than to leave their kids

> > alone.

> >

> > In a message dated 10/24/2009 3:22:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > xrisacct@ writes:

> >

> > > I don't have kids either but the idea of leaving a six and eight year

> > old

> > > home alone together,even for a half an hour,is inconceivable to me.

> >

> > Unless you are independently wealthy, that is a fact of life for most

> > parents now. Most families don't have the support and organization members

of

> > groups like the mormons do.

> >

October 24, 2009

I think we should leave out the name calling. To label and judge situations

without knowing all the details, leaves us closed to the details when they are

trying to be shared. And assuming someone's intelligence level based on life

circumstances (that some people on this board may not have lived and I mean

growing up in poverty) can start to offend others. I too, have my own set of

assumptions that I'm sure if I listed there would be people on this list that I

would offend. But we should at least refrain from name calling, because it never

gets anyone anywhere. We all know that first hand.

~Kim

> >

> > >

> > > I'll be blunt and say that I think that is absurd, xris; responsible

parents do

> > > not leave young children alone and unsupervised for hours at a time.

> > > Poverty-level working parents can still make responsible choices for their

kids'

> > > safety and welfare.

> >

> > Where I lived ,there weren't any people willing to watch kids, and the local

tanf people would not pay money to people-they had to go out and get a job. And

no employer ever gave a break at all to any parent if their kid was sick, or in

trouble, or alone at home. My cousin lost 4 jobs i none year due to that. It

literally was do or die-people lost their kids due to the fact no one would

watch them. Add to that that the local grandparents had the idea that the kids

had to work out problems for themselves, and refused to watch them, and they

still can't do anything to make them help.

> >

> > >

> > > When my Sister started elementary school our nada began working again;

when

> > > elementary school let out my Sister was supposed to take the school bus

home and

> > > stay at our neighbor's house (the neighbor lady had children near my

Sister's

> > > age) until our nada got home a couple of hours later. I don't know whether

my

> > > nada paid our neighbor to watch my Sister or not, however.

> >

> > But you had someone else willing-the majority of parents nationwide,

according to surveys over and over ,do not.

> >

> > You can be as judgmental as you want, but rent is still due at the first

week, and if there is no money, there's no place to live. And no one to watch

the kids. We watched over a dozen one day, simply because we had a ridiculous