Re: nada negligence

October 18, 2009

Ashana,

Well, I'm not sure about this one. Yes, you should have been supervised but

as a mom of 3, my kids have done some really weird things sometimes. Not

to that extreme...but my son, when he was 2 (he's 7 now), was supposed to be

napping and instead got into the bathroom cabinet and poured baby powder

all into the Xbox, the floor, the bed, HIMSELF, the tub, the sink...all

before I realized he was up. He also once escaped out the front door and had

to be gone at least 10 minutes (again, supposed to be napping) before I

realized it. We promptly installed an alarm that dings if the door opens, but

it could have been disasterous. My daughter (who has safely made it to 9

years old, lol) once got into the finger nail polish and painted her bedspread

and the wall (and herself) before I walked down the hall and smelled it.

She could just have easily poured it into her eyes or drank it and I am so

thankful I caught her.

So....

do I think a 3 year being outside with scissors is dangerous?

Absolutely...but it happens. I once drank cleaner that was left on a bathroom

counter

at about 3. I also cut all the hair off our dog's tail once at about 5.

With that said, with BPD parents, it's never that ONE incident that makes

things so bad, but the totality of the incidents all put together. I think

if it's an issue for you and something that bothers you, then that's what

matters. Accidents happen if you have kids -- they just do. Most are

probably, in hindsight, preventable, but they still happen. My questions would

be, how long were you left alone? did your mother know you had the scissors

and was too involved with herself to care? do YOU feel like maybe it was

neglect? If so, then I would say maybe there was more to the story. You

didn't talk or eat for an undetermined amount of time after that -- that could

be because of HER reaction and how it made you feel for accidentally cutting

the cat.

Just my .02.

In a message dated 10/18/2009 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

ashanamax@... writes:

I've been thinking about some of the things I did when I was small that I

felt very bad about as a child. When I was about 3, I once got it into my

head to cut my cat's fur. Not having such great hand-eye coordination, I

cut into his skin and the cat had to have stitches. I was horrified. From

what my mother has told me, I wouldn't eat for a while after that, I

wouldn't talk (whether she meant for hours or days, I don't know and I'm not

about to break nc and ask her). But I believe her.

Anyway, it occurred to me that you don't just leave 3-year-olds

unsupervised like that. The scissors were in a drawer in the kitchen I could

reach.

I cut the cat outside on the back porch, which was also where the unlocked

door to the garage was located. There were all manner of things in the

garage I could have gotten into--my dad's tools (saws and other shop

objects), poisonous liquids that may or may not have had childproof lids, the

washer and dryer (which children periodically seem to climb into, turn on, and

then die). Most things up were up out of immediate reach, but I was

completely capable of climbing up to get them if I really wanted to.

Am I right in thinking that my parents should have been watching me? That

you just don't let toddlers run around completely unwatched like that? I

don't have children, but my niece is nearly the same age now as I was then,

and I know if it were me that I would not feel right at all if I knew

there were dangerous things around that she could get into if I couldn't see

her.

Ashana

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October 18, 2009

Kids are curious, especially little ones. You don't just leave them

unsupervised and leave scissors in accessible places. They don't understand the

consequences of what can happen. They are simply curious. What happened to the

kitty wasn't your fault. It was the fault of your parents for leaving you

unsupervised.

Forgive yourself, okay?

Heidi

________________________________

To: WTO kids <WTOAdultChildren1 >

Sent: Sun, October 18, 2009 1:11:18 PM

Subject: nada negligence

I've been thinking about some of the things I did when I was small that I felt

very bad about as a child. When I was about 3, I once got it into my head to

cut my cat's fur. Not having such great hand-eye coordination, I cut into his

skin and the cat had to have stitches. I was horrified. From what my mother

has told me, I wouldn't eat for a while after that, I wouldn't talk (whether she

meant for hours or days, I don't know and I'm not about to break nc and ask

her). But I believe her.

Anyway, it occurred to me that you don't just leave 3-year-olds unsupervised

like that. The scissors were in a drawer in the kitchen I could reach. I cut

the cat outside on the back porch, which was also where the unlocked door to the

garage was located. There were all manner of things in the garage I could have

gotten into--my dad's tools (saws and other shop objects), poisonous liquids

that may or may not have had childproof lids, the washer and dryer (which

children periodically seem to climb into, turn on, and then die). Most things

up were up out of immediate reach, but I was completely capable of climbing up

to get them if I really wanted to.

Am I right in thinking that my parents should have been watching me? That you

just don't let toddlers run around completely unwatched like that? I don't have

children, but my niece is nearly the same age now as I was then, and I know if

it were me that I would not feel right at all if I knew there were dangerous

things around that she could get into if I couldn't see her.

Ashana

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October 18, 2009

Ashana,what are the feelings that come up for you now when you think about this

incident? Do you remember what the horrified feeling you had felt like?

It sounds like there were a few things going on here that your nada probably

didn't adequately manage for you,if your reaction was to not talk or eat,for

however long that was.And even a couple hours is a very long time to a three

year old.

First of all,the way you've described it,everything was going fine: you had

an idea...you took the initiative to implement that idea by searching in the

kitchen drawer for a pair of scissors...so far,so good..you were able to somehow

use your own skill to get the cat with you on the outside porch and in a

position for you to cut his hair...and then just when everything was going

great,disaster struck...in a very scary way.You had believed that you were

simply acting on an idea you'd had and before you knew it,danger just blew up at

you.

This is the point where we don't know how your nada reacted to you/the

situation at hand.You know that the result was that the cat had to have

stitches,which had to have also been horrifying to you as a little three year

old.Children that age have only the beginnings of understanding where they/their

environment/other people begin and end--that is the age when they are in the

process of figuring that out.They also have no real concept of personal

responsibility,and since they are in the process of figuring out how their own

actions/behaviors impact on other people/their environment,inadequate management

of that process by caretakers (such as not responding with

compassion/patience/understanding) can make the child generalize feelings of

" badness " back to themselves.Because it's bad when the things you do result only

in punishment or disaster--you need an adult to make it not be so punishing or

so disastrous! Otherwise,you just feel bad.And at that age,you are what you

feel.

Yes,you're right Ashana: your nada should have managed your environment

better.She should have managed things so that you acting on your ideas resulted

in you feeling like you had achieved something good instead of being assaulted

by something horrifying.If you made a bad mistake,she should have helped you to

understand that making mistakes can be managed emotionally in ways other than

feeling as if you cannot talk and cannot eat.

That's just my .02 too but I was very struck by the break in your

narrative of this incident from " I was horrified " to what your nada said about

it.

Take care,

>

> I've been thinking about some of the things I did when I was small that I felt

very bad about as a child. When I was about 3, I once got it into my head to

cut my cat's fur. Not having such great hand-eye coordination, I cut into his

skin and the cat had to have stitches. I was horrified. From what my mother

has told me, I wouldn't eat for a while after that, I wouldn't talk (whether she

meant for hours or days, I don't know and I'm not about to break nc and ask

her). But I believe her.

>

> Anyway, it occurred to me that you don't just leave 3-year-olds unsupervised

like that. The scissors were in a drawer in the kitchen I could reach. I cut

the cat outside on the back porch, which was also where the unlocked door to the

garage was located. There were all manner of things in the garage I could have

gotten into--my dad's tools (saws and other shop objects), poisonous liquids

that may or may not have had childproof lids, the washer and dryer (which

children periodically seem to climb into, turn on, and then die). Most things

up were up out of immediate reach, but I was completely capable of climbing up

to get them if I really wanted to.

>

> Am I right in thinking that my parents should have been watching me? That you

just don't let toddlers run around completely unwatched like that? I don't have

children, but my niece is nearly the same age now as I was then, and I know if

it were me that I would not feel right at all if I knew there were dangerous

things around that she could get into if I couldn't see her.

>

> Ashana

>

> Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how.

http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos

>

October 19, 2009

Ashana - I have to concur with on this one. Should toddlers have access

to scissors? Heck, no. Do they manage to find them anyway? Yes, all the time.

As a very young child, I never cut the dog's hair, but I persisted in trimming

my own bangs, with predictably hideous results. (Sometimes I still do this, and

my hair cut guy complains - but I'm better at it now...)

When my son was 2, he managed to open the deadbolt on the front door and went

" walkabout " for several minutes, just like 's son did. His dad and I were

both in the house, and each of us thought the other one was watching the baby.

After a few frantic minutes, my husband found him walking down the sidewalk - a

couple of women had stopped my son and were headed back our way - and boy, did

they give my husband the fisheye. But we were both present, awake, sober, and

the doors were locked. Our son had learned a new skill and had gotten tall

enough to reach the door lock, and we didn't know about it. (We installed a

latch hook at the top of each outside door that same day.)

Later that same year, we had a blizzard. I stepped out onto the deck to shovel

a path so the dog could get down to the back yard, leaving my son right inside

the French doors where I could see him. I turned around to see that little

booger reach up and lock the deadbolt - leaving me outside with no coat. My

entreaties to " Let Mommy in! " sent him into gales of laughter. I had to wade

and shovel my way through snowdrifts to the front door, which was unlocked,

thank God. After that, I always took my keys with me. Luckily his fascination

with the deadbolt gave way to some other pursuit soon afterward.

Parents live and learn, and it's a miracle that most of the time our kids don't

do anything truly deadly or irreversable. But it sure does give us grey hair.

SO - while I know your Nada did some awful things to you, I think this episode

with the cat is a pretty normal occurrence. It is good to know that you were

horrified when you hurt the cat, and that you took it to heart - you had the

makings of a good person, right then.

>

> Ashana,

>

> Well, I'm not sure about this one. Yes, you should have been supervised but

> as a mom of 3, my kids have done some really weird things sometimes. Not

> to that extreme...but my son, when he was 2 (he's 7 now), was supposed to be

> napping and instead got into the bathroom cabinet and poured baby powder

> all into the Xbox, the floor, the bed, HIMSELF, the tub, the sink...all

> before I realized he was up. He also once escaped out the front door and had

> to be gone at least 10 minutes (again, supposed to be napping) before I

> realized it. We promptly installed an alarm that dings if the door opens, but

> it could have been disasterous. My daughter (who has safely made it to 9

> years old, lol) once got into the finger nail polish and painted her

bedspread

> and the wall (and herself) before I walked down the hall and smelled it.

> She could just have easily poured it into her eyes or drank it and I am so

> thankful I caught her.

>

> So....

> do I think a 3 year being outside with scissors is dangerous?

> Absolutely...but it happens. I once drank cleaner that was left on a bathroom

counter

> at about 3. I also cut all the hair off our dog's tail once at about 5.

>

> With that said, with BPD parents, it's never that ONE incident that makes

> things so bad, but the totality of the incidents all put together. I think

> if it's an issue for you and something that bothers you, then that's what

> matters. Accidents happen if you have kids -- they just do. Most are

> probably, in hindsight, preventable, but they still happen. My questions would

> be, how long were you left alone? did your mother know you had the scissors

> and was too involved with herself to care? do YOU feel like maybe it was

> neglect? If so, then I would say maybe there was more to the story. You

> didn't talk or eat for an undetermined amount of time after that -- that could

> be because of HER reaction and how it made you feel for accidentally cutting

> the cat.

>

> Just my .02.

>

> In a message dated 10/18/2009 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> ashanamax@... writes:

>

> I've been thinking about some of the things I did when I was small that I

> felt very bad about as a child. When I was about 3, I once got it into my

> head to cut my cat's fur. Not having such great hand-eye coordination, I

> cut into his skin and the cat had to have stitches. I was horrified. From

> what my mother has told me, I wouldn't eat for a while after that, I

> wouldn't talk (whether she meant for hours or days, I don't know and I'm not

> about to break nc and ask her). But I believe her.

>

> Anyway, it occurred to me that you don't just leave 3-year-olds

> unsupervised like that. The scissors were in a drawer in the kitchen I could

reach.

> I cut the cat outside on the back porch, which was also where the unlocked

> door to the garage was located. There were all manner of things in the

> garage I could have gotten into--my dad's tools (saws and other shop

> objects), poisonous liquids that may or may not have had childproof lids, the

> washer and dryer (which children periodically seem to climb into, turn on,

and

> then die). Most things up were up out of immediate reach, but I was

> completely capable of climbing up to get them if I really wanted to.

>

> Am I right in thinking that my parents should have been watching me? That

> you just don't let toddlers run around completely unwatched like that? I

> don't have children, but my niece is nearly the same age now as I was then,

> and I know if it were me that I would not feel right at all if I knew

> there were dangerous things around that she could get into if I couldn't see

> her.

>

> Ashana

>

> Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how.

> _http://in.overview.http://in.ohttp://in._

> (http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos)

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

October 19, 2009

I also agree.

My older child was very easy, didn't get into much at all. My second one has a

motor running from the minute he wakes up until the minute he goes to bed. It

is nearly impossible to watch every single move children make.

We babyproof homes and do our best but some kids are very curious. It's not an

easy balance...there is a house to keep, laundry to be done, food to buy and

cook, bills to pay, homework to be done...the list goes on and on. We try to

balance it all while keeping an eye on the children and it doesn't always work

out the way we hoped. Kids get into things they shouldn't, even when we are

vigilant.

I agree that a few of these types of incidents do not make a mom negligent. I

have yet to meet a mom who didn't have some story to tell along these lines.

> >

> > Ashana,

> >

> > Well, I'm not sure about this one. Yes, you should have been supervised but

> > as a mom of 3, my kids have done some really weird things sometimes. Not

> > to that extreme...but my son, when he was 2 (he's 7 now), was supposed to

be

> > napping and instead got into the bathroom cabinet and poured baby powder

> > all into the Xbox, the floor, the bed, HIMSELF, the tub, the sink...all

> > before I realized he was up. He also once escaped out the front door and

had

> > to be gone at least 10 minutes (again, supposed to be napping) before I

> > realized it. We promptly installed an alarm that dings if the door opens,

but

> > it could have been disasterous. My daughter (who has safely made it to 9

> > years old, lol) once got into the finger nail polish and painted her

bedspread

> > and the wall (and herself) before I walked down the hall and smelled it.

> > She could just have easily poured it into her eyes or drank it and I am so

> > thankful I caught her.

> >

> > So....

> > do I think a 3 year being outside with scissors is dangerous?

> > Absolutely...but it happens. I once drank cleaner that was left on a

bathroom counter

> > at about 3. I also cut all the hair off our dog's tail once at about 5.

> >

> > With that said, with BPD parents, it's never that ONE incident that makes

> > things so bad, but the totality of the incidents all put together. I think

> > if it's an issue for you and something that bothers you, then that's what

> > matters. Accidents happen if you have kids -- they just do. Most are

> > probably, in hindsight, preventable, but they still happen. My questions

would

> > be, how long were you left alone? did your mother know you had the scissors

> > and was too involved with herself to care? do YOU feel like maybe it was

> > neglect? If so, then I would say maybe there was more to the story. You

> > didn't talk or eat for an undetermined amount of time after that -- that

could

> > be because of HER reaction and how it made you feel for accidentally cutting

> > the cat.

> >

> > Just my .02.

> >

> > In a message dated 10/18/2009 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > ashanamax@ writes:

> >

> > I've been thinking about some of the things I did when I was small that I

> > felt very bad about as a child. When I was about 3, I once got it into my

> > head to cut my cat's fur. Not having such great hand-eye coordination, I

> > cut into his skin and the cat had to have stitches. I was horrified. From

> > what my mother has told me, I wouldn't eat for a while after that, I

> > wouldn't talk (whether she meant for hours or days, I don't know and I'm

not

> > about to break nc and ask her). But I believe her.

> >

> > Anyway, it occurred to me that you don't just leave 3-year-olds

> > unsupervised like that. The scissors were in a drawer in the kitchen I

could reach.

> > I cut the cat outside on the back porch, which was also where the unlocked

> > door to the garage was located. There were all manner of things in the

> > garage I could have gotten into--my dad's tools (saws and other shop

> > objects), poisonous liquids that may or may not have had childproof lids,

the

> > washer and dryer (which children periodically seem to climb into, turn on,

and

> > then die). Most things up were up out of immediate reach, but I was

> > completely capable of climbing up to get them if I really wanted to.

> >

> > Am I right in thinking that my parents should have been watching me? That

> > you just don't let toddlers run around completely unwatched like that? I

> > don't have children, but my niece is nearly the same age now as I was then,

> > and I know if it were me that I would not feel right at all if I knew

> > there were dangerous things around that she could get into if I couldn't

see

> > her.

> >

> > Ashana

> >

> > Now, send attachments up to 25MB with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn how.

> > _http://in.overview.http://in.ohttp://in._

> > (http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/photos)

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

October 19, 2009

There is a fascinating autobiography that is basically about negligence called

" The Glass Castle " . It was a great read. It might interest you.

-Deanna